I'm thinking West Virginia won't go blue this election anyway but that could be a problem in some purple states, no?
I think it's true right wing voters just crossing over and voting, particularly now that Trump has won. In other words, they came out to vote against Hillary. They were never natural progressive constituents anyway.
The problem ... Your a country of 330+ million and these candidates are the best you got.
Not just that. A bunch of dumb ass voters supporting them!
Throw Sanders supporters into that lot. Evidently a 18 trillion dollar entitlement addition to the deficit doesn't bother them. Perhaps they should study a shred of economics and understand how the debt endangers our economy, crowds out private investments, dramatically increases interest rates, etc.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
Their social inequality problems doesn't really mean they deserve to be continually shelled and starved and otherwise abused by Israel though. That's kinda like saying that one is surprised Europe had sympathy for the US after we got attacked considering how backwards we are in x,y,z ways.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
You think canada is Socialist? You can't be serious? Yes we have universal health care and decent maternity leave and few public paid holidays ... hardly socialist we are.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
You think canada is Socialist? You can't be serious? Yes we have universal health care and decent maternity leave and few public paid holidays ... hardly socialist we are.
Fair enough. I won't hang that on you. I'm not sure where the line of calling a country socialist actually exists. We have socialist programs in the US of course, but we are fundamentally capitalist. Canada certainly has capitalism.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
Their social inequality problems doesn't really mean they deserve to be continually shelled and starved and otherwise abused by Israel though. That's kinda like saying that one is surprised Europe had sympathy for the US after we got attacked considering how backwards we are in x,y,z ways.
I'll agree and disagree. You're right that the Israeli gov't has been overly aggressive and disproportionate in some of its responses. The Palestinians deserve a homeland. At the same time, the PLO has launched rockets indiscriminately into Israel and the latest is stabbing citizens on the streets of Israel. There is culpability on both sides. At the same time, Palestine and the middle east in general do not practice social inequality. That's far too weak of a statement. They codify harsh sexism against women and violent bigotry against gays. We should be as forceful in our condemnation of that, as the Israel issue. That's my point.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
Their social inequality problems doesn't really mean they deserve to be continually shelled and starved and otherwise abused by Israel though. That's kinda like saying that one is surprised Europe had sympathy for the US after we got attacked considering how backwards we are in x,y,z ways.
I'll agree and disagree. You're right that the Israeli gov't has been overly aggressive and disproportionate in some of its responses. The Palestinians deserve a homeland. At the same time, the PLO has launched rockets indiscriminately into Israel and the latest is stabbing citizens on the streets of Israel. There is culpability on both sides. At the same time, Palestine and the middle east in general do not practice social inequality. That's far too weak of a statement. They codify harsh sexism against women and violent bigotry against gays. We should be as forceful in our condemnation of that, as the Israel issue. That's my point.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening in what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Maybe he has done his due diligence as much as others feel they have?
This dismissiveness toward various well thought-out posts, respectful ones...just weird and rude from some, no matter the "side".
Odd how repeatedly telling someone to fuck off is a-OK (and yeah, mickey, I am calling you out on your comments *edit - was on another thread, but still. Plus this shit has melded together into some kind of stinky mess*. You're a good guy but that being said, even more than once, crossed the line - my line. Fuck knows where others' lines run), but other benign threads are locked?
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening is what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
PJ_Soul, care to expand on that statement? In many ways, I don't feel that he's wrong. When there's a disproportionality between effort and reward, people tend to just not put in the effort, which may very well stifle growth (be it personal, economic, scientific, cultural, etc).
Here in Canada, I know of two people who were separately laid off, and delayed finding new jobs for most of a year, because they knew or assumed that the jobs they could get would deliver little more income than the employment insurance provided by our government. So, the socialist society (i.e. the taxpayers) suffer as a result, there is less reward available to offer, and this plus that disproportionality make it even more difficult to put in the effort.
I also know several doctors who go golfing for the remainder of their working hours, once they put in enough hours in a month to reach the government's imposed salary cap. "You should work out of the goodness of your heart from here on in" is just not a great motivator. And, once again, the socialist society suffers, because we find that in densely populated areas such as Toronto, there is a shortage of doctor-hours! This leads to people waiting absurd amounts of time for simple tasks such as MRIs, CT Scans. Many GPs in the city aren't even accepting new patients (forcing them to drive or transit far to see one), and many will see you for fifteen minutes, tops.
I don't think socialism itself stifles innovation, but it does when you combine it with an inherent human flaw - greed. If we cared about the collective more than ourselves, then I think socialism would have a chance to be an innovation center. As it stands, I don't think it does compared to a truly capitalist society.
EDIT: Just to add to this - I know that Canada isn't a truly socialist society, but we definitely lean that direction on the spectrum more than our neighbours below us!
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening is what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
PJ_Soul, care to expand on that statement? In many ways, I don't feel that he's wrong. When there's a disproportionality between effort and reward, people tend to just not put in the effort, which may very well stifle growth (be it personal, economic, scientific, cultural, etc).
I've heard this a few times now. Is there any evidence to back up this claim?
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening is what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
PJ_Soul, care to expand on that statement? In many ways, I don't feel that he's wrong. When there's a disproportionality between effort and reward, people tend to just not put in the effort, which may very well stifle growth (be it personal, economic, scientific, cultural, etc).
I've heard this a few times now. Is there any evidence to back up this claim?
I gave two pieces of anecdotal evidence below the part you bolded, but I'm also curious if there's any firmer empirical evidence on it. I'm honestly not sure how you'd go about empirically proving this however, unless you pit countries against each other and compare innovation per capita. Even then, seems there would be so many contributing factors that it'd be nearly impossible.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,072
America is already socialist. This should not be a reason to be against Bernie Sanders, a democratic socialist. View the brief video below and relax about the socialism paranoia and reconsider voting Bernie for your best interest:
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening is what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
PJ_Soul, care to expand on that statement? In many ways, I don't feel that he's wrong. When there's a disproportionality between effort and reward, people tend to just not put in the effort, which may very well stifle growth (be it personal, economic, scientific, cultural, etc).
I've heard this a few times now. Is there any evidence to back up this claim?
I gave two pieces of anecdotal evidence below the part you bolded, but I'm also curious if there's any firmer empirical evidence on it. I'm honestly not sure how you'd go about empirically proving this however, unless you pit countries against each other and compare innovation per capita. Even then, seems there would be so many contributing factors that it'd be nearly impossible.
Well exactly. Why is anyone presupposing that socialist nations aren't innovative because they are socialist (to various extents)? There are so many factors to consider here. I am not convinced that anyone making that statement actually knows how innovative many of these more socialist countries are, and suspect that most innovation in the world goes largely unnoticed. I.e. France is super innovative in the hard sciences - material physics and the like. Sweden has been deemed the most innovative nation in the EU... etc etc etc etc. And most progressive socialism leads to wonderful innovation when it comes to social programs and education. China and Russia aren't particularly innovative (well China is, but only when it comes to consumer manufacturing), but these two countries (along with a few others) have the very important distinction of being under dictatorial governments, and I would say THAT is what stifles innovations, not socialism. I think saying that socialist nations aren't innovative and that people don't work as hard in those places is just a completely random and incorrect assumption. It is pretty easy to see that this is not the case in democratic socialist nations.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Aren't innovative? Benjs, you are proposing that because Socialist countries don't have to work so hard to live, they become lazier and that capitalism keeps us more thinking about inventing and innovating. You didn't say it, but I get the gist. If this is so, why is the US most progressively deficient than most counties, let alone socialist ones? Hard working capitalist countries does not equal progress. Because in a richly capitalistic country that believes in overworking, underpaying and outsourcing workers, we fall way behind most countries, let alone socialist ones. I think you're mixing up a life/work balance and laziness. Canada is way ahead of the US when it comes to social, economical, and global responsibility. Yes, the Canadian dollar is down, but take a look at our problems. Wall Street, bought elections, Big banks, Citizens United, etc.
Before anyone knee jerks their dislike or whatever for Michael Moore, watch the first half of his interview last night with Bill Maher. He describes the entire point of his documentary "Who to Invade Next?" with examples of how progressive the socialist nations are compared to the US. The US was on the verge of progress and innovation long ago... and then stalled.
I normally disagree with Billy cuz he's douchy but I think he's 50% right here. Socialism does stifle innovation. I agree with that. But people do have the right to protest to make things better HOWEVER, they don't have to the right to shut down other people's speech. I say this in reference to his Trump statements.
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
i can't really tell what corgan's position is on bernie ... not sure he's actually criticizing him ...
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
It's simple economics. Why would I invest differentially in human capital, time, resources, effort, sweat equity, etc. when the gov't taxes me at a marginal rate that exceeds my time and stress. In other words, if I'm taxed at 30% when I make a 100k, but 60% when I make 200k, why should I put the extra effort, time and long nights and weekends to make 200k? I worked twice as hard but only have 50k more to show for it. It's just not worth it.
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
Reading this, I feel like you know very little about Socialism and what is happening is what might be considered socialist societies. Feels more like you are either reading some anti-socialist propaganda, or just making random assumptions with very little actual knowledge.
PJ_Soul, care to expand on that statement? In many ways, I don't feel that he's wrong. When there's a disproportionality between effort and reward, people tend to just not put in the effort, which may very well stifle growth (be it personal, economic, scientific, cultural, etc).
I've heard this a few times now. Is there any evidence to back up this claim?
I gave two pieces of anecdotal evidence below the part you bolded, but I'm also curious if there's any firmer empirical evidence on it. I'm honestly not sure how you'd go about empirically proving this however, unless you pit countries against each other and compare innovation per capita. Even then, seems there would be so many contributing factors that it'd be nearly impossible.
Yeah, it's an interesting thought. I've never seen any data on this one way or the other...but someone out there somewhere I'm sure has tried to put some numbers to it. I may poke around a bit and ask some of my more social science literate friends.
Comments
http://www.alternativenation.net/billy-corgan-criticizes-bernie-sanders-socialism/
-EV 8/14/93
Last, I'm not pro-Israeli by any stretch, but I find it interesting how much sympathy there is for the Palestinians in the very liberal crowd, considering their total disregard for women's rights and their downright hatred of gays. I'm not really sure what to make of it all.
in any case - socialism stifling innovation is gotta be one of the most obtuse beliefs out there ... c'mon ... really? ... what conservative propaganda piece do people play when they go to bed to believe this stuff ...
Innovation doesn't come from working 40 hours a week and punching a clock. It comes from people who are willing to work and do things that the rest of the population isn't willing to do. But when they are not going to see the fruits of that labor because the gov't is going to assess a high rate of taxation, what's the point? Altruism?
It's not a winning argument to say that China, Soviet Union, Sweden, Canada, France and any other socialist country is more innovative than the capitalistic US.
Tell me... please, how this is being obtuse. Give me a list of the greatest innovations originating from a socialist society. Tell me the greatest medical advances coming from a socialist medical community and I'll start layering in innovations comign from Hopkins, Mayo clinic, Cleveland Clinic, Shriners, etc. You cannot take the financial incentive out of the market. It dies. This isn't propaganda. It's economics and history.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
The rest of the world is embarrassed for us. I was just in Ottawa, they think the mere IDEA of Trump is a travesty. But 'Murica loves him!!
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
This dismissiveness toward various well thought-out posts, respectful ones...just weird and rude from some, no matter the "side".
Odd how repeatedly telling someone to fuck off is a-OK (and yeah, mickey, I am calling you out on your comments *edit - was on another thread, but still. Plus this shit has melded together into some kind of stinky mess*. You're a good guy but that being said, even more than once, crossed the line - my line. Fuck knows where others' lines run), but other benign threads are locked?
Say it ain't so Bunk.....say it ain't so
https://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/wire-star-wendell-pierce-arrested-for-attacking-bernie-sanders-supporters-in-atlanta-hotel/
Here in Canada, I know of two people who were separately laid off, and delayed finding new jobs for most of a year, because they knew or assumed that the jobs they could get would deliver little more income than the employment insurance provided by our government. So, the socialist society (i.e. the taxpayers) suffer as a result, there is less reward available to offer, and this plus that disproportionality make it even more difficult to put in the effort.
I also know several doctors who go golfing for the remainder of their working hours, once they put in enough hours in a month to reach the government's imposed salary cap. "You should work out of the goodness of your heart from here on in" is just not a great motivator. And, once again, the socialist society suffers, because we find that in densely populated areas such as Toronto, there is a shortage of doctor-hours! This leads to people waiting absurd amounts of time for simple tasks such as MRIs, CT Scans. Many GPs in the city aren't even accepting new patients (forcing them to drive or transit far to see one), and many will see you for fifteen minutes, tops.
I don't think socialism itself stifles innovation, but it does when you combine it with an inherent human flaw - greed. If we cared about the collective more than ourselves, then I think socialism would have a chance to be an innovation center. As it stands, I don't think it does compared to a truly capitalist society.
EDIT: Just to add to this - I know that Canada isn't a truly socialist society, but we definitely lean that direction on the spectrum more than our neighbours below us!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I've heard this a few times now. Is there any evidence to back up this claim?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Yes, the Canadian dollar is down, but take a look at our problems. Wall Street, bought elections, Big banks, Citizens United, etc.