Canadian Politics Redux

Zod

ekwipt said:

Zod said:

ekwipt said:

Again, strike notice doesn’t mean strike. Just like their lockout notice doesn’t mean lockout. Both sides issued notice. Didn’t mean it would happen. Didn’t mean working conditions had to change. That was a decision the corp made. A bullying tactic to try to get their bad contract offer signed. 

Like I said, just trying to shed some light. Not trying to change the world. Too many take a blurb on the news and think they know what’s going on and play armchair quarterback when they have no clue. Seems like the most vocal critics tend to have little or no experience working in a union, engaging in labour relations, writing massive collective agreement contracts etc. etc. etc. Not at all directed at you. None of this has been. Always found you to be intelligent & very kind. Just sharing what I know in the hopes it may enlighten some. The corporate propaganda machine is a beast and truth rarely escapes its shadow.

*That article has some serious errors about the contract offer that CPC has on the table as of now. They have just parroted CPCs press release about the details as I mentioned before is the norm. Stuff like that is a huge part of the problem. 

I've worked union jobs.  We got locked out once but we flinched first.  3 of of the stores of the chain i worked for gave notice and the companies response was a full scale lock out.  It's what happens.  Moves and Countermoves.  It wasnt simultaneous.  We gave notice in a few stores and the company issued full on lock out the same day.

I'm not trying to argue anything in Canada Post favour.  They're using underhanded tactics.  I'm arguing about the timing.

They did it when they had maximum leverage, but the timing is going to hurt.  Now the timing has misfired.  Missing Christmas season is going to sting, and after missing it they have less leverage in the post christmas quiet season.  Over the long term its less mail through Canada Post requiring less people to sort and deliver it.

Im not against Canada Post being subsidized if it came to that but there should be limits and what not.  We have a similar problem in BC with our ferries being fake private.   Government subsidizes some of it, but its not really enough, but the question is how many of your tax dollars do you actually want to allocate to it.  Would those tax dollars be better served going to health care, affordable housing, mental health supports etc.  Its tough out there.

Also you keep hinging your arguement that Canada Post gave lockout notice at the exact same time the union gave strike notice.  All I find are articles that discuss the lockout was a reaction to the strike notice. Could you please provide a link or source for the information you are providing that says it was simultaneous.

Another article from global news:

Globalnews.ca/news/10865138/canada-post-strike-notice

Companies are usually going to respond when strike notice is issued.  My Dad got locked out of his mill job for over 6 weeks when they gave strike notice, and company responded with a lockout.

It's not rocket appliances.  The moment you threaten to shut down the business its game on for negotiation tactics and Canada Post is pretty underhanded with the layoff notices and cutting health benefits.  That cold.

There seems to be a misunderstanding or miscommunication here. I’ll do my best to clear it up but discussion via text is always tricky because no one is present to address how what is read is personally perceived. 

-I am on the inside of this dispute and have been on the inside of every CPC/CUPW negotiation for decades. 

-I never stated that strike notice and lockout notice were simultaneous. If memory serves they were around eight hours apart. I never stressed the timing of notice issued for either party because it is relatively irrelevant. Notice issued is like 2 cats growling at each other. It’s not a real fight (strike/lockout) until someone takes a swing.

-In past negotiations sometimes CPC & CUPW have continued working for weeks under multiple 72 hr notices issued and certain minor working conditions revoked (such as all planned vacation leave being cancelled). I understand your family has experienced immediate actual strike and lockout when notice was issued but that is not the way every labour dispute goes. This time the working conditions CPC revoked were major and unacceptable for workers to continue working under. A full strike was called Nov 15 as that was the day the workers would have had to work under the new, unacceptable working conditions. This is the first full strike in over 20 years. 

-I’m sharing facts from inside the dispute. I don’t need news articles to tell me what is happening. I’m living every minute of it. Take all news articles about any labour dispute anywhere with a grain of salt. All they do is re-write what the companies and unions have released. Naturally both sides publicly release only statements that make themselves look good. The last Global one you posted isn’t horrible but again has incorrect info in it, particularly about the current contract offer on the table. I don’t think I’ve even seen a story yet that talks much about what the current major sticking point is (it’s currently the details and rules surrounding an expansion to year round weekend parcel delivery). 

-I’m not here for a debate. I know far more about what is happening day to day than you’ll find in the news. I’ve shared some of it because people seemed interested & chatter started. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and belief about the situation. I’ve offered nothing but truth. There is no deception here. There would be nothing to gain by posting misinformation about a Canadian labour dispute on an American rock band’s forum. There is nothing to gain by posting truths either. It’s just facts. I doubt if more than 10 people have even read any of it. Hopefully the situation will wrap up soon but that is something only a small group of people from both sides back east can decide. 

I still feel like you're missing what I was trying to argue.  I'm not arguing your credentials. It was all about the timing.  Sure a union doesn't have to strike when they give notice, but its often the first shot fired in escelating the dispute.

They fired the first shot by giving the notice.  That tells the employer after 72 hours they can walk off the job whenever they see fit.  That usually causes the employer side to escelate on their end.  

I've been arguing the timing isn't good.  Firing that shot just before the busy season putting yourself in a situation to miss it.  It's crazy how quickly remaining retailers that use Canada Post have pivoted to other couriers.  It's going to have long term impact not being reliable during the busy season.
 
All Im trying to say is firing the warning shot just before Christmas season was a misfire.  They'd been without contract for a while and could of done it earlier or later.  They chose to do it 2 weeks before black friday.  Not resolving before Black Friday is going to have lasting impact.

I hope it's resolved and everyone gets back to work.  I'm just saying the union misfired with the timing of their warning shot ( strike notice). 

ekwipt

I understand what you said. There is nothing to argue though. You’re giving your opinion of how you think things go and I’ve given the facts of what actually happened. As I said both parties have continued working for weeks through repeated 72 hr strike and lockout notices in the past. This time could’ve been the same had unacceptable working conditions not been implemented. If all vacation leave being revoked had been the major change in working conditions this time around everyone might still be working. Or maybe talks would’ve broken down further and rotating strike action followed by a lockout may have occurred. We’ll never know now because that’s not how it went down.

* If an initial contract offer had been made in Feb and negotiations went poorly a Summer or early Fall strike or lockout would have been more likely. With the initial offer not coming until almost Nov the timing is what it is. I understand your opinion is that the union picked this date to strike mostly as a strategy but the fact is that it’s just not the case this time. 

erebus

Curious, what are the two sides sticking points?
what are they fighting for and against?

what are the “unacceptable working conditions” that CPC imposed?

ekwipt

erebus said:

Curious, what are the two sides sticking points?
what are they fighting for and against?

what are the “unacceptable working conditions” that CPC imposed?

There are several issues the two sides are at odds on but the current stalemate is about expanding to year round Sat/Sun parcel delivery and the minute details about how that would be staffed.

As for working conditions:
On Nov 15th the corporation shut off health benefits that workers had paid for all year and removed protections workers had against unmerited layoffs and firings. 

Zod

ekwipt said:

I understand what you said. There is nothing to argue though. You’re giving your opinion of how you think things go and I’ve given the facts of what actually happened. As I said both parties have continued working for weeks through repeated 72 hr strike and lockout notices in the past. This time could’ve been the same had unacceptable working conditions not been implemented. If all vacation leave being revoked had been the major change in working conditions this time around everyone might still be working. Or maybe talks would’ve broken down further and rotating strike action followed by a lockout may have occurred. We’ll never know now because that’s not how it went down.

* If an initial contract offer had been made in Feb and negotiations went poorly a Summer or early Fall strike or lockout would have been more likely. With the initial offer not coming until almost Nov the timing is what it is. I understand your opinion is that the union picked this date to strike mostly as a strategy but the fact is that it’s just not the case this time. 

I guess we agree to disagree.   I've been in enough unions, and grew up in a family of union workers, to know once a strike notice (or lockout notice) it's game on.  Anything can happen.  It's basically a warning shot.  If you're past the 72 hours notice period, you can just walk off the job at a moments notice.  Leaving things half done or in a mess.  I remember my Dad's union always waiting until summer to fire the warning shot (strike notice) so if it did escalate, at least it was in the summer with good weather.    His union contract very rarely didn't escalate to a strike/lockout situation.   Serving Strike Notice was the warning shot, and then you get the companies response to firing the warning shot.  He always planned for at least not working for 6 weeks, it was tough every time a contract came up, and sucked when they negotiated short ones opposed to longer ones.

It's going to be tough overall though.  I think this is going to have long term effect on both Canada Post and it's employees because they couldn't figure it out.   If the goal was to increase parcel delivery business, I think they've accomplished the opposite by having it escalate during the busy season.   It seems like the timing is off on the whole thing.  Canada Post presenting an offer a few weeks before the busy season, the employees issuing strike notice shortly thereafter, then all the retaliatory measures by CP.  It's most definitely a mess.

I do wonder how long this will drag on now.   With needing to order stuff off the internet about 1.5 to 2 weeks before Christmas to make sure it shows up on time, the Christmas window will only last another week or two, and with Black Friday being missed, that's a huge miss.  Once Christmas season is done, it could really stretch out, as there's no real catalyst to get both sides to find middle ground.

DarthMaeglin

This article lends the impression that only the CPC is being targeted on an ongoing basis, but I can’t call it shitty reporting, that’s reserved for any publication that’s deemed to be right-leaning apparently.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csis-foreign-interference-pierre-poilievre-1.7404616

DarthMaeglin

I’m surprised and even happy to see how objective this article is, in contrast with CBC’s coverage of the convoy otherwise.

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/tamara-lich-chris-barber

dignin

DarthMaeglin said:

I’m surprised and even happy to see how objective this article is, in contrast with CBC’s coverage of the convoy otherwise.

https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/features/tamara-lich-chris-barber

Grifters.

HughFreakingDillon

It’s a fairly common theme among those with regret over past actions to “just want my life to go back to normal”, whether they express that regret explicitly or not. 

FAFO

DarthMaeglin

Had to look it up, Fuck Around Find Out. If only that principle were applied equally I could live with it, but we’re nowhere close to that.

Parliament was in such danger during the convoy protest that the only day they didn’t sit was the day the police moved in under the auspices of the EA.

A week or two ago a group occupied the building that houses MPs offices in Ottawa, no mass arrests or frozen bank accounts.

Flashback to pre-covid and the occupation of our rail networks, no EA, occupiers were allowed to rip up or burn court injunctions in the police’s faces.

To say nothing of the regular hate rallies that walk into Jewish neighbourhoods here in Toronto. You’re seemingly only arrested if you’re observing the protest as a member of Rebel News.

Fuck Around Find Out if you’re not a member of certain preferred groups.

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Had to look it up, Fuck Around Find Out. If only that principle were applied equally I could live with it, but we’re nowhere close to that.

Parliament was in such danger during the convoy protest that the only day they didn’t sit was the day the police moved in under the auspices of the EA.

A week or two ago a group occupied the building that houses MPs offices in Ottawa, no mass arrests or frozen bank accounts.

Flashback to pre-covid and the occupation of our rail networks, no EA, occupiers were allowed to rip up or burn court injunctions in the police’s faces.

To say nothing of the regular hate rallies that walk into Jewish neighbourhoods here in Toronto. You’re seemingly only arrested if you’re observing the protest as a member of Rebel News.

Fuck Around Find Out if you’re not a member of certain preferred groups.

no disrespect intended...  you're leaving out substantial context. 

In my opinion (and I suspect this is shared by many for what it's worth) the two giant pieces of context you're leaving out is that the EA was used under two very important circumstances: 

1: The Convoy was directly impacting 2 national economies. 

2: Biden contacted Trudeau the day before the EA was used. To me, that's not a co-incidence. 

Add these two together. 

Now you can still opine about whether or not it was justified from a legal standpoint, fair enough. 

In my opinion however, under those two very important circumstances, if you think guys like Stephen Harper or Pierre Polievre wouldn't do the exact same thing (if not worse), then my friend, I have some unicorn fur to sell you. 

Now interestingly... said Pierre Polievre would have us think that the Liberals are all about dividing and identity politics. Yet here we are, talking about the sides and divisiveness and talking about how one side treats the others differently yadda yadda... a big ole' blame game against Trudeau and the Liberals. All the while leaving out said important context. 

Hopefully it makes you think... maybe it's not about divisiveness and identity politics... maybe it's just about money and power. And both sides are equally interested in those things. And both sides do the same greasy shit to get it.  

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Had to look it up, Fuck Around Find Out. If only that principle were applied equally I could live with it, but we’re nowhere close to that.

Parliament was in such danger during the convoy protest that the only day they didn’t sit was the day the police moved in under the auspices of the EA.

A week or two ago a group occupied the building that houses MPs offices in Ottawa, no mass arrests or frozen bank accounts.

Flashback to pre-covid and the occupation of our rail networks, no EA, occupiers were allowed to rip up or burn court injunctions in the police’s faces.

To say nothing of the regular hate rallies that walk into Jewish neighbourhoods here in Toronto. You’re seemingly only arrested if you’re observing the protest as a member of Rebel News.

Fuck Around Find Out if you’re not a member of certain preferred groups.

no disrespect intended...  you're leaving out substantial context. 

In my opinion (and I suspect this is shared by many for what it's worth) the two giant pieces of context you're leaving out is that the EA was used under two very important circumstances: 

1: The Convoy was directly impacting 2 national economies. 

2: Biden contacted Trudeau the day before the EA was used. To me, that's not a co-incidence. 

Add these two together. 

Now you can still opine about whether or not it was justified from a legal standpoint, fair enough. 

In my opinion however, under those two very important circumstances, if you think guys like Stephen Harper or Pierre Polievre wouldn't do the exact same thing (if not worse), then my friend, I have some unicorn fur to sell you. 

Now interestingly... said Pierre Polievre would have us think that the Liberals are all about dividing and identity politics. Yet here we are, talking about the sides and divisiveness and talking about how one side treats the others differently yadda yadda... a big ole' blame game against Trudeau and the Liberals. All the while leaving out said important context. 

Hopefully it makes you think... maybe it's not about divisiveness and identity politics... maybe it's just about money and power. And both sides are equally interested in those things. And both sides do the same greasy shit to get it.  

The border were cleared (economic damage) prior to the invocation of the EA.

This should be a black and white issue: are we ALL equal under the law, as the Charter claims, or not?

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Had to look it up, Fuck Around Find Out. If only that principle were applied equally I could live with it, but we’re nowhere close to that.

Parliament was in such danger during the convoy protest that the only day they didn’t sit was the day the police moved in under the auspices of the EA.

A week or two ago a group occupied the building that houses MPs offices in Ottawa, no mass arrests or frozen bank accounts.

Flashback to pre-covid and the occupation of our rail networks, no EA, occupiers were allowed to rip up or burn court injunctions in the police’s faces.

To say nothing of the regular hate rallies that walk into Jewish neighbourhoods here in Toronto. You’re seemingly only arrested if you’re observing the protest as a member of Rebel News.

Fuck Around Find Out if you’re not a member of certain preferred groups.

no disrespect intended...  you're leaving out substantial context. 

In my opinion (and I suspect this is shared by many for what it's worth) the two giant pieces of context you're leaving out is that the EA was used under two very important circumstances: 

1: The Convoy was directly impacting 2 national economies. 

2: Biden contacted Trudeau the day before the EA was used. To me, that's not a co-incidence. 

Add these two together. 

Now you can still opine about whether or not it was justified from a legal standpoint, fair enough. 

In my opinion however, under those two very important circumstances, if you think guys like Stephen Harper or Pierre Polievre wouldn't do the exact same thing (if not worse), then my friend, I have some unicorn fur to sell you. 

Now interestingly... said Pierre Polievre would have us think that the Liberals are all about dividing and identity politics. Yet here we are, talking about the sides and divisiveness and talking about how one side treats the others differently yadda yadda... a big ole' blame game against Trudeau and the Liberals. All the while leaving out said important context. 

Hopefully it makes you think... maybe it's not about divisiveness and identity politics... maybe it's just about money and power. And both sides are equally interested in those things. And both sides do the same greasy shit to get it.  

The border were cleared (economic damage) prior to the invocation of the EA.

This should be a black and white issue: are we ALL equal under the law, as the Charter claims, or not?

well the easy answer here is no  lol  ... The only upside here is that to a certain extent, we're not as bad as the USA.   But political influence etc. will always play a part. To your point or desire... if we were all equal, Trudeau would have been found guilty of and punished for the SNC Lavalin interference scandal. 

HughFreakingDillon

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6591446 as I said in the trump thread, good on ya Doug Ford, and fuck you danielle smith. 

Zod

HughFreakingDillon said:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6591446 as I said in the trump thread, good on ya Doug Ford, and fuck you danielle smith. 

We do weird things in Canada, but I hope we don't end up in position where the US tariff's manufactured products and leaves raw materials without a tariff.  That would be horrible for economic growth, letting other countries continue to manufacture all our stuff.

Maybe we need to follow where the world is going, with protectionism, and start reducing our reliance on other countries, and manufacture things for ourselves.

Of course we struggle with economies of scale, and most people would rather invest in real estate, which is less productive :(

HughFreakingDillon

Jesus. JT asks Freeland (deputy PM/finance minister) to resign; offers her another cabinet position; she flips him the bird. 😳 😂 

HughFreakingDillon

She posts this to social media hours before she was to deliver the economic update. 

I agree with a lot of what her statement said about “political gimmicks” and a “united front” with the premiers. I guess it really is time for him to go. Whatever you think of him, all his chaos has lost him the confidence of Canadians and fellow leadership. 

No chance he wins next year, if he even lasts that long. 

erebus

Hopefully he hasn't totally killed the Liberal party for the next election. 
I really cannot stand the current Conservatives under PP. 
Once again,  we need electoral reform so we can vote for who we want and not have to do it strategically to keep someone out...

Spunkie

Zod said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6591446 as I said in the trump thread, good on ya Doug Ford, and fuck you danielle smith. 

We do weird things in Canada, but I hope we don't end up in position where the US tariff's manufactured products and leaves raw materials without a tariff.  That would be horrible for economic growth, letting other countries continue to manufacture all our stuff.

Maybe we need to follow where the world is going, with protectionism, and start reducing our reliance on other countries, and manufacture things for ourselves.

Of course we struggle with economies of scale, and most people would rather invest in real estate, which is less productive :(

We started making opiates so that's a great start! 

Didn't we just expand so we can send them our oil and make a new agreement so they could get our water.

Zod

Spunkie said:

Zod said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6591446 as I said in the trump thread, good on ya Doug Ford, and fuck you danielle smith. 

We do weird things in Canada, but I hope we don't end up in position where the US tariff's manufactured products and leaves raw materials without a tariff.  That would be horrible for economic growth, letting other countries continue to manufacture all our stuff.

Maybe we need to follow where the world is going, with protectionism, and start reducing our reliance on other countries, and manufacture things for ourselves.

Of course we struggle with economies of scale, and most people would rather invest in real estate, which is less productive :(

We started making opiates so that's a great start! 

Didn't we just expand so we can send them our oil and make a new agreement so they could get our water.

Yes to the oil.  I think they are the primary benefactors of the twinned transmoutain pipeline.

Water, I don't think so, except maybe specifically the Columbia River Treaty, I read that was being renogitiated, which to be honest, I'm not sure why we negotiate.  If the water originates in our country, are we that worry about how much makes it into the US?  Regardless, I think it's an agreement how much we ensure flows south of the border, not so much selling the water.

Generally though, water is protected through NAFTA, and if we ever started to sell it, it becomes unprotected, which means foreign corporations are free to come up here and extract as much of it as they want.  As long as we don't sell it, NAFTA protects it.

I guess it may not matter it NAFTA (UMSCA?) get's torn up to start up tarriffs though. Then we can protect whatever we want.