What I would say in response to your post is that the majority of Canadians don't feel as if our justice system does represent us as a people. This is evident in virtually all polls asking for opinion on the subject.
And to dismiss these sentiments as 'uninformed' or 'uneducated' is arrogant at best.
There are individual cases where the legal system has failed individuals, but the growing collection of cases where our criminals have been treated tenderly has become a mountain... and people are very tired of this.
Questions of guilt aside... we want our rapists in prison- not released after serving a portion of their pathetically weak sentences to go out and rape again.
What I just described is not a rare instance. It happens. Way too often.
Which post are you referring to, Thirty? I haven't posted here in a few days. I've been too busy with work.
Post edited by oftenreading on
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Wow, so that would-be ISIS terrorist actually detonated his backpack bomb in the cab he'd just gotten into when he was confronted by police who had come to arrest him. The cab driver was hurt but not killed. Not clear if the terrorist was killed by his own bomb or if he was shot by police (not even clear if shots were fired yet, not sure why not). I guess the bomb wasn't a very good one, since it didn't even kill the guy who always in the car with it. I saw a photo of the backseat of the cab and it's not even that damaged. So either he fucked up the bomb, or it was a rinky-dink token bomb more intended to scare people than to kill them.... u less he was going to put it somewhere that would cause much more damage, like on a train so it went off the tracks or who knows what. Anyway, he was responding to a call from ISIS, and ISIS has officially claimed responsibility. This guy was in touch with others of his kind, including the nut jobs who shot up that convention or meeting or whatever it was where people were displaying depictions of Muhammed down in Texas (am I remembering that right?).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Apparently this POS had 2 bombs and 1 went off and he was shot by police, he instructed the cab company that he was headed to a mall in downtown London. he was out on a peace bond that was set to expire at the end of August. So who knows if the second bomb could have been more dangerous. at least the police saved us taxpayers a pointless trial...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
If anyone failed your kid LADY it was you as the parent...dumbass.
Well, who knows if the woman in the article failed her own child; there's not enough information there to comment on that, since she isn't even talking about her own child. She's talking about her hope that more could be done to intervene in youth becoming radicalized, in reference to the Driver case which seems to have no relation to her. I personally don't know what realistically the government could do to prevent this in the first place, as opposed to dealing with it when it arises, but she's certainly not making the claim you seem to think she is.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I don't think I made a claim other than calling her a dumbass for blaming the government. I did say "IF anyone failed your kid it was her", certainly not the government. What now are going to have to pour billions of dollars into youth programs, the education to prevent radicalization...
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I guess I'm just misreading you, lukin. I don't see that the article says she blames the government for what happened with her kid at all
I kind of think she is. She's saying that the government could have intervened and stopped what happened but didn't, and that it hasn't done enough to prevent the radicalization of youth too. That Harper used fear tactics which made things worse, and that Trudeau's government is burying its head in the sand about it and is therefore doing nothing to prevent or stop it either...... She may have a point. I really don't know enough about the issue to say. Either way, it doesn't mean we're supposed to feel pity or anything for terrorists, and I don't feel like that was the point she was trying to make.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If anyone failed your kid LADY it was you as the parent...dumbass.
What an utterly ridiculous perspective.
I took a couple things from it:
1. They're thinking better surveillance was necessary. So, in other words, once her son was identified as a homicidal brainwashed f**king idiot... the government should have done a better job monitoring his activity.
2. They're thinking it was incumbent upon the government to counsel the family and determine what was troubling him. Hmmm. Don't we know?
3. What a goof. I'm glad he's gone. She's bitter because he's dead. Aren't you relieved he didn't take a bunch of people before the f**K up met his end?
4. She should be apologizing to everyone, but she's pointing fingers. She belongs in the idiot thread.
What I would say in response to your post is that the majority of Canadians don't feel as if our justice system does represent us as a people. This is evident in virtually all polls asking for opinion on the subject.
And to dismiss these sentiments as 'uninformed' or 'uneducated' is arrogant at best.
There are individual cases where the legal system has failed individuals, but the growing collection of cases where our criminals have been treated tenderly has become a mountain... and people are very tired of this.
Questions of guilt aside... we want our rapists in prison- not released after serving a portion of their pathetically weak sentences to go out and rape again.
What I just described is not a rare instance. It happens. Way too often.
how is it arrogant!? ... what is arrogant is thinking 36 million Canadians thinking they know law ... i don't want you making laws as much as you don't want me ... we have experts in law do this ... people who have an understanding of our value system here in Canada ... that's why we don't execute people and abortion is legal ...
crime is down in this country ... you can continue to pick incidents where you feel the justice system failed but are you getting email alerts when it has worked!? ... guessing no ...
if 10 people go in jail for the same crime and serve the same sentence and 1 guy recommits ... you cite failure ... and your solution is to make it harsh for that 1 person ... meanwhile the other 9 people will have to suffer in appropriate sentences to appease people like you ...
Recidivism rates of 44% in the first year of release, Polaris. The 'first' year of release.
Your 1 in 10 comment is 'just a little' misinformed.
And crime being down has nothing to do with our penal system- it has more to do with social climate and opportunity. I'm not sure why you would think the courts and prisons have anything to do with the reduction of crime?
And poor, poor violent offenders 'having to suffer' (your words) for, say, beating and raping a woman. Thank Gawd they have people like you in their corner making sure they don't!
Recidivism rates of 44% in the first year of release, Polaris. The 'first' year of release.
Your 1 in 10 comment is 'just a little' misinformed.
And crime being down has nothing to do with our penal system- it has more to do with social climate and opportunity. I'm not sure why you would think the courts and prisons have anything to do with the reduction of crime?
And poor, poor violent offenders 'having to suffer' (your words) for, say, beating and raping a woman. Thank Gawd they have people like you in their corner making sure they don't!
also - your chart is indicating reconvinction rates which is different than recidivism ... the link also showed that rate of 44% is favourable vs. other countries using the same metric ... although 44% may seem high - it's a study from 1994 and involves everyone who's in prison for whatever crime ...
and again - even tho everyone has stated it multiple times ... but because either you choose to not accept it or feel like your moral compass is higher than others ... i will repeat ... this discussion is not about sympathizing with offenders of violent crime or crime in general ... it's about understanding that there are complexities in our legal and justice system ... that just because you may think that a particular crime deserves a harsher sentence such as death doesn't make it just or right based on our shared collective values in Canada ...
not sure how you can say our justice system isn't associated with crime being down and then yet send a link showing reconvinction rates as a means of failure ...
I offered you a link to counter your 1 in 10 offhand comment. It serves to demonstrate our penal system isn't exactly kicking ass.
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
I offered you a link to counter your 1 in 10 offhand comment. It serves to demonstrate our penal system isn't exactly kicking ass.
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
well ... i was making up an example ... you made it about sex offenders ... of which the rate is 12% - 21% which is not egregiously off my made up number ...
you don't have to apologize for anything ... it's just that your constant labeling of anyone discussing this with you as supporters of rapists is not only wrong - it's getting tired and old ... i could label you as a murder happy red neck in each post ... pretty sure you're not gonna like that ...
I offered you a link to counter your 1 in 10 offhand comment. It serves to demonstrate our penal system isn't exactly kicking ass.
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
well ... i was making up an example ... you made it about sex offenders ... of which the rate is 12% - 21% which is not egregiously off my made up number ...
you don't have to apologize for anything ... it's just that your constant labeling of anyone discussing this with you as supporters of rapists is not only wrong - it's getting tired and old ... i could label you as a murder happy red neck in each post ... pretty sure you're not gonna like that ...
Well... you kind of did. You expressed that I wanted to see them suffer. What's the implication there?
You took a veiled shot- if not a direct one- and when I fire one back you tell me that's getting old.
I offered you a link to counter your 1 in 10 offhand comment. It serves to demonstrate our penal system isn't exactly kicking ass.
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
well ... i was making up an example ... you made it about sex offenders ... of which the rate is 12% - 21% which is not egregiously off my made up number ...
you don't have to apologize for anything ... it's just that your constant labeling of anyone discussing this with you as supporters of rapists is not only wrong - it's getting tired and old ... i could label you as a murder happy red neck in each post ... pretty sure you're not gonna like that ...
Well... you kind of did. You expressed that I wanted to see them suffer. What's the implication there?
You took a veiled shot- if not a direct one- and when I fire one back you tell me that's getting old.
oh dear ... how would you have phrased it then? ... that's the consequence of what you seek ... and the foundation of my point ... making harsher sentences has consequences of which potentially making it harsh for people that otherwise would re-integrate fine ...
in any case - you've been firing shots all throughout this thread ... i don't care ... i'm just explaining why we keep trying to tell you what you're saying isn't true ...
I offered you a link to counter your 1 in 10 offhand comment. It serves to demonstrate our penal system isn't exactly kicking ass.
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
well ... i was making up an example ... you made it about sex offenders ... of which the rate is 12% - 21% which is not egregiously off my made up number ...
you don't have to apologize for anything ... it's just that your constant labeling of anyone discussing this with you as supporters of rapists is not only wrong - it's getting tired and old ... i could label you as a murder happy red neck in each post ... pretty sure you're not gonna like that ...
Well... you kind of did. You expressed that I wanted to see them suffer. What's the implication there?
You took a veiled shot- if not a direct one- and when I fire one back you tell me that's getting old.
oh dear ... how would you have phrased it then? ... that's the consequence of what you seek ... and the foundation of my point ... making harsher sentences has consequences of which potentially making it harsh for people that otherwise would re-integrate fine ...
in any case - you've been firing shots all throughout this thread ... i don't care ... i'm just explaining why we keep trying to tell you what you're saying isn't true ...
You're essentially saying here that your point of view is the correct and only point of view. This, my friend, is not fantastic.
Your desire for softer, more lenient sentences ultimately means more victims of crime. One can only assume you are okay with that. One can only assume that you are willing to place innocent people at risk so that violent offenders get another chance to live amongst us without hurting anyone. I say this because... that is the reality of what you support.
It's tough to gauge exactly what the recidivism rates are given the mixed reports, but the overwhelming majority of publications point to an alarming rate. Federal and provincial numbers differ: the provincial rates for re-offending are astronomically high. In Manitoba, within two years, the percentage has been 75% and higher for some categories.
The Vancouver Sun revealed that the federal recidivism number that seems palatable is inaccurate: "While the figure seems impressive, it excludes some important criteria: - The 10 per cent refers only to the number of convicted criminals who return to a federal prison within two years of being released into society. - It does not include people who return to a provincial jail within two years of leaving federal custody. - It also does not include people who return to any prison after being back in society for three years or longer."
how am I remotely saying that!?? ... perhaps that is why you also mistake the fact I want more softer and lenient sentencing ... how many times do I have to repeat that my primary point is that the justice and legal system is complex and that most people do not understand the ramifications of what they are asking ... that's it ... in any case - if you think the justice system is soft now yet crime rates are going down ... how does that jive!? ... you're saying a soft criminal system leads to more victims of crime but yet crime rates are down ...
you're the one who chooses to use recidivism ... now that it doesn't say what you want - you are gonna discredit it!? ... sure, they are valid points but so, are the points against using the numbers in general ... so, feel free to make your point with something you support ...
the rates in manitoba are probably higher because we incarcerate aboriginals at an alarming rate ... most of these crimes are for non-violent offenses ... in any case - you brought up the stat and in comps to other countries - it is seen as good ...
I have to agree Thirty. You really seem to incorrectly translate what people say when it comes to this topic. I don't really understand why or how you keep ending up on a "desire for softer, more lenient sentences", and regularly make that "oh poor criminals" accusation play. Everyone keeps making it completely clear that that is not what they want or think, and yet you keep deciding that they do, and I just don't get it. The one thing that EVERYONE clearly agrees with is that violent offenders who are a danger to society should not be walking around free. This is obvious, but you keep acting like some think otherwise. If anyone tries to discuss options - realistic options that will work in the system that we have - you spin it like this. It's not normally how you operate I don't think, so it's strange that you stick to this tactic for this topic alone. Meanwhile, you keep talking about how criminals should be killed..... in a country where there is no death penalty and in a world where vigilantism is extremely dangerous to innocent people.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the mix here, which I probably shouldn't do because I'm too busy with work to fully explain and provide supporting documentation, but...... there's not a lot of proof that longer, harsher sentences lead to better outcomes, less crime, or a safer society. In fact there is some evidence to suggest the latter is true. The obvious exception is for violent offenders who can't be managed any other way than in a custodial situation, and I haven't seen any of us argue that individuals like that shouldn't be in jail.
Be cautious about recidivism data. Make sure it's broken down into useful categories and you compare like to like. Many individuals recidivate in minor, nonviolent ways like stealing food, which triggers a breach of conditions charge and a return to custody, but likely never posed a risk to anyone and only ended up in that situation in the first place because they were released from custody with absolutely no institutional planning to give even a tiny chance of successful reintegration.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
And when I read the headlines, I assumed the RCMP would be the escort, not the elder...he was obviously no risk to escape, because the time he served for escaping custody must have taught, so they thaught..you can't make this shit up.
Post edited by lukin2006 on
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I will say this ... for a justice system that's not broken it sure gets a lot of bad press...sheesh...
F**king joke. And hardly surprising.
That's about all I'll say about it.
Victims need better treatment ... I can not defend a system that cares so little about victims and sometimes bends over backwards for criminals. And sorry in this particular case 6-12 years for those crimes seems light...
Post edited by lukin2006 on
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Comments
Sorry. It was Polaris I was speaking to- I had thought it was your post (you guys are too hard to tell apart lol!)
I do intend to jump back in but I am doing the work of four people right now. Summer holidays are a bitch if you're not the one who's away.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/i-cried-mother-of-calgary-man-who-died-in-syria-fighting-with-isil-says-government-failed-aaron-driver
If anyone failed your kid LADY it was you as the parent...dumbass.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I took a couple things from it:
1. They're thinking better surveillance was necessary. So, in other words, once her son was identified as a homicidal brainwashed f**king idiot... the government should have done a better job monitoring his activity.
2. They're thinking it was incumbent upon the government to counsel the family and determine what was troubling him. Hmmm. Don't we know?
3. What a goof. I'm glad he's gone. She's bitter because he's dead. Aren't you relieved he didn't take a bunch of people before the f**K up met his end?
4. She should be apologizing to everyone, but she's pointing fingers. She belongs in the idiot thread.
crime is down in this country ... you can continue to pick incidents where you feel the justice system failed but are you getting email alerts when it has worked!? ... guessing no ...
if 10 people go in jail for the same crime and serve the same sentence and 1 guy recommits ... you cite failure ... and your solution is to make it harsh for that 1 person ... meanwhile the other 9 people will have to suffer in appropriate sentences to appease people like you ...
Your 1 in 10 comment is 'just a little' misinformed.
And crime being down has nothing to do with our penal system- it has more to do with social climate and opportunity. I'm not sure why you would think the courts and prisons have anything to do with the reduction of crime?
And poor, poor violent offenders 'having to suffer' (your words) for, say, beating and raping a woman. Thank Gawd they have people like you in their corner making sure they don't!
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/rcvd-fdffndr/index-en.aspx
also - your chart is indicating reconvinction rates which is different than recidivism ... the link also showed that rate of 44% is favourable vs. other countries using the same metric ... although 44% may seem high - it's a study from 1994 and involves everyone who's in prison for whatever crime ...
and again - even tho everyone has stated it multiple times ... but because either you choose to not accept it or feel like your moral compass is higher than others ... i will repeat ... this discussion is not about sympathizing with offenders of violent crime or crime in general ... it's about understanding that there are complexities in our legal and justice system ... that just because you may think that a particular crime deserves a harsher sentence such as death doesn't make it just or right based on our shared collective values in Canada ...
not sure how you can say our justice system isn't associated with crime being down and then yet send a link showing reconvinction rates as a means of failure ...
And you can state what you did as many times as you want: if the current state of our justice system suits you well... good for you. What we have needs refining in my opinion. I might be right with regards to some changes I'd like to see... but I could be wrong too. It's merely how I see things. Should I apologize for that?
you don't have to apologize for anything ... it's just that your constant labeling of anyone discussing this with you as supporters of rapists is not only wrong - it's getting tired and old ... i could label you as a murder happy red neck in each post ... pretty sure you're not gonna like that ...
You took a veiled shot- if not a direct one- and when I fire one back you tell me that's getting old.
in any case - you've been firing shots all throughout this thread ... i don't care ... i'm just explaining why we keep trying to tell you what you're saying isn't true ...
Your desire for softer, more lenient sentences ultimately means more victims of crime. One can only assume you are okay with that. One can only assume that you are willing to place innocent people at risk so that violent offenders get another chance to live amongst us without hurting anyone. I say this because... that is the reality of what you support.
It's tough to gauge exactly what the recidivism rates are given the mixed reports, but the overwhelming majority of publications point to an alarming rate. Federal and provincial numbers differ: the provincial rates for re-offending are astronomically high. In Manitoba, within two years, the percentage has been 75% and higher for some categories.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2010/03/02/13089631.html
The Vancouver Sun revealed that the federal recidivism number that seems palatable is inaccurate: "While the figure seems impressive, it excludes some important criteria:
- The 10 per cent refers only to the number of convicted criminals who return to a federal prison within two years of being
released into society.
- It does not include people who return to a provincial jail within two years of leaving federal custody.
- It also does not include people who return to any prison after being back in society for three years or longer."
http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Courts/Sun Repeat offender.htm
you're the one who chooses to use recidivism ... now that it doesn't say what you want - you are gonna discredit it!? ... sure, they are valid points but so, are the points against using the numbers in general ... so, feel free to make your point with something you support ...
the rates in manitoba are probably higher because we incarcerate aboriginals at an alarming rate ... most of these crimes are for non-violent offenses ... in any case - you brought up the stat and in comps to other countries - it is seen as good ...
Be cautious about recidivism data. Make sure it's broken down into useful categories and you compare like to like. Many individuals recidivate in minor, nonviolent ways like stealing food, which triggers a breach of conditions charge and a return to custody, but likely never posed a risk to anyone and only ended up in that situation in the first place because they were released from custody with absolutely no institutional planning to give even a tiny chance of successful reintegration.
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/dangerous-offender-given-day-leave-to-attend-alberta-powwow-eludes-escort-and-escapes
And when I read the headlines, I assumed the RCMP would be the escort, not the elder...he was obviously no risk to escape, because the time he served for escaping custody must have taught, so they thaught..you can't make this shit up.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/jen-gerson-if-this-is-what-happens-in-the-worst-sex-assault-cases-how-can-any-rape-victim-expect-justice
it appears broken if your a victim...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
That's about all I'll say about it.
That's about all I'll say about it.
Victims need better treatment ... I can not defend a system that cares so little about victims and sometimes bends over backwards for criminals. And sorry in this particular case 6-12 years for those crimes seems light...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/mauril-belanger-dead-from-als-at-61-mp-was-driving-force-behind-making-o-canada-gender-neutral
RIP
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon