Okay, I'm going to do my usual shitty job of explaining my position on victim/family involvement in the criminal justice system. Just for you, Thirty!
Up until a finding is made, I don't believe there is really much role for families/victims in the case unless they are being called as witnesses. The finder of fact (judge or jury) need to focus on the facts of the case in order to make a determination of guilty or not guilty, and I can't really see how the impact of violence on the victims, as horrific as it may be, actually affects whether someone is guilty of an offense or not. Except in very rare circumstances, the victims don't have a good understanding of the law; they are certainly not the appropriate ones to determine if a case is strong enough to go to trial, or what the appropriate charges might be.
After a finding of guilt has been made, I think there is a role for victims/families in the sentencing phase. However, I am cautious about the extent of this role. There's a reason civilized societies have moved away from vigilantism. For our justice system to function it needs to be equitable at its core, and not respond to those who happen to yell the loudest or be the best at getting media attention. I have real concerns about victim impact statements having too big a role in determining appropriate sentencing. If that's the case, what happens to the victims of violent crime who don't have family to speak for them, particularly the homeless or otherwise marginalized individuals? Why should their aggressors somehow get a lesser sentence just because no-one is appearing in court and submitting impact statements? What about communities that distrust the police and legal system - should victims from their communities get less regard because no one trusts the courts enough to be willing to submit a statement? And what about victims/family members who just can't face the stress of going to court, but feel they have to or there won't be a just sentence? If you're going to say that this isn't going to happen, that the sentence would be the same - well, then what is the role of victim impact statements? And if these statements don't actually change what the sentence is, why are we doing them? Are we just lying to the victims, placating them, telling them their words mean something in the process when they don't?
For me, it boils down to the fact that the justice system should be able to do its job in a fair way that responds to the facts of the case and treats similar cases similarly, rather than wildly differently depending on who the victims are and who speaks for them.
Thirty (and everyone else), I'd be interested to hear what role you would like to see victims play in the process, in either the trial or sentencing phases.
I completely agree with you oftenreading.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
As to often question as to victim involvement. Victim of crime should be kept informed throughout the process...I don't think that's to much to ask. I tend to think the justice system is underfunded as to why victims are often left frustrated, just how I feel.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
As to often question as to victim involvement. Victim of crime should be kept informed throughout the process...I don't think that's to much to ask. I tend to think the justice system is underfunded as to why victims are often left frustrated, just how I feel.
The courts would have 'kicked it up a couple notches' if the table was turned though. If the bouncer had smacked the idiot... he'd have been in a heap of trouble.
Our penal system is weak. Pathetic might be the more appropriate term. Good Canadians are tired of it. Revisions are necessary.
An excerpt from an article supporting my position:
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
everyone should read the full text of the link ...
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
everyone should read the full text of the link ...
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
Wrong.
That little quip you are pointing out is the opinion of an attorney scuttling to protect the integrity of the system that serves him so well. Canadians are a little more aware of the justice system's failings than you and he seem to suggest- they are in our face on a daily basis.
How come you never commented on this little piece (the post above the one you chose to speak to):
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your position when I say it seems as if you are defending our justice system here because that's sure what it seems you are doing.
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
everyone should read the full text of the link ...
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
Wrong.
That little quip you are pointing out is the opinion of an attorney scuttling to protect the integrity of the system that serves him so well. Canadians are a little more aware of the justice system's failings than you and he seem to suggest- they are in our face on a daily basis.
How come you never commented on this little piece (the post above the one you chose to speak to):
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your position when I say it seems as if you are defending our justice system here because that's sure what it seems you are doing.
dude ... you cherry picked the link you sent to support your bias ... i suggested to everyone to read the entire link instead of just your snippet ... which contained a point that I made earlier ...
my question to you is this ... is there a perfect criminal justice system anywhere in this world!??? ... if so - let me know which country that is ...
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
everyone should read the full text of the link ...
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
Wrong.
That little quip you are pointing out is the opinion of an attorney scuttling to protect the integrity of the system that serves him so well. Canadians are a little more aware of the justice system's failings than you and he seem to suggest- they are in our face on a daily basis.
How come you never commented on this little piece (the post above the one you chose to speak to):
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your position when I say it seems as if you are defending our justice system here because that's sure what it seems you are doing.
dude ... you cherry picked the link you sent to support your bias ... i suggested to everyone to read the entire link instead of just your snippet ... which contained a point that I made earlier ...
my question to you is this ... is there a perfect criminal justice system anywhere in this world!??? ... if so - let me know which country that is ...
I submitted a piece titled, "Canadians Have Little Faith in Justice System" supporting the notion I had aforementioned (that Canadians have little faith in our justice system).
Hardly cherry picking.
I'll answer your question. No. But that doesn't mean we say, "Oh well. It's far from perfect, but meh... what are ya gonna do?"
I think our penal system is waaaaaaaaay too lenient for our criminals- in particular the violent ones that rape women, get early parole, and rape more women when on parole like the shithead I highlighted earlier.
Answer my question: do you think our justice system serves justice?
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I definitely don't think they should be sent overseas where no one can keep an eye on them. They should be put in prison for life and mined for information if they have any. Sometimes they even serve as good informants. As for the rest, I think there are logical lines here that the law, as usual, refuses to navigate the way it should. It's not fucking hard to differentiate laws so that they apply to terrorist plotters but still not infringe on or threaten the rights of law abiding citizens. The law is oftern WAY too black and white IMO. However, while the law is like that, I think cops need to do what they're doing, because if they hadn't they very likely would end up getting the case tossed out in court. This guy was already unleashed back on the public by the courts. I figure the cops did this the way they did it and carried out an ongoing investigation because they know as well as we do that the system is fucked up. So in the end I 100% agree with the way the RCMP handled this.... except for the shooting part. I don't know if they were really taken off guard or what, but if they were watching him for so long, you'd think they would have figured out a way to get him into custody without a gun fight. But who knows - no details on that part yet. Maybe it was somehow unavoidable.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I definitely don't think they should be sent overseas where no one can keep an eye on them. They should be put in prison for life and mined for information if they have any. Sometimes they even serve as good informants. As for the rest, I think there are logical lines here that the law, as usual, refuses to navigate the way it should. It's not fucking hard to differentiate laws so that they apply to terrorist plotters but still not infringe on or threaten the rights of law abiding citizens. The law is oftern WAY too black and white IMO. However, while the law is like that, I think cops need to do what they're doing, because if they hadn't they very likely would end up getting the case tossed out in court. This guy was already unleashed back on the public by the courts. I figure the cops did this the way they did it and carried out an ongoing investigation because they know as well as we do that the system is fucked up. So in the end I 100% agree with the way the RCMP handled this.... except for the shooting part. I don't know if they were really taken off guard or what, but if they were watching him for so long, you'd think they would have figured out a way to get him into custody without a gun fight. But who knows - no details on that part yet. Maybe it was somehow unavoidable.
You had me at 'put in prison for life'.
I would get on board with that idea and even trying to solicit information from him- although he likely wouldn't serve much up.
For you suggesting there is a grey area to operate... trust is granted to authorities. On this forum... that's not too popular of an idea; however, I agree that the service needs latitude sometimes to do their jobs.
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I'm glad I don't live in the Canada that you seem to want. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects us all. Just because the guy was an idiot, doesn't mean it shouldn't apply to him as well.
To me, the system seemed to work well. Bad guy didn't take any innocent lives.
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I'm glad I don't live in the Canada that you seem to want. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects us all. Just because the guy was an idiot, doesn't mean it shouldn't apply to him as well.
To me, the system seemed to work well. Bad guy didn't take any innocent lives.
I basically agree with this. But I think laws really badly needed to be written with more precision and thoughtfulness, and I think the Supreme Court could work harder too, so that the CofR doesn't lead to guilty people and dangerous people slipping through the cracks or playing with technicalities.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
Agreed 100%...except we can't if their Canadian, and if their not a line up lawyers will be there to represent them...remember they have rights, potential victims.
Post edited by lukin2006 on
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Terrorist plot stopped, would-be terrorist from Winnipeg killed by police during some kind of confrontation in Ontario. Police had been investigating him for a long time - he was already under a court order not to have any communications with ISIS. The Toronto Transit Commission had been warned, so presumably the attack was planned for mass transit. I would say that it's probably not great that this guy was killed. Keeping him alive for questioning probably would have been better, just in case he knows of others who currently pose a real threat to the public. Of course, I doubt the cops had much choice in the matter. Anyway, I am not sure if the cops were still letting this guy walk around planning a terrorist attack because that is the most informative way to investigate and stop such a plot, or if it suggests a problem with how the courts handle terrorist threats. Until they release more info, I'll assume the former. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
As far as I'm concerned... if some maniac is contacting ISIS and the authorities discover such... he should be arrested- possibly sent overseas so he can be closer to his friends.
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I'm glad I don't live in the Canada that you seem to want. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects us all. Just because the guy was an idiot, doesn't mean it shouldn't apply to him as well.
To me, the system seemed to work well. Bad guy didn't take any innocent lives.
I'd be curious to know, unbeknownst to us, if service operatives worked in the grey area... or if procedure was followed to the letter and the system which you laud here is actually to be credited. My hunch is operatives worked with a bit of the latitude I'd offer them to safeguard us and prevent- as you said- the bad guy from taking any lives.
And... let's get serious: the guy wasn't just a run of the mill idiot. He was known to be collaborating with ISIS which forfeits the rights afforded to him (even though you seem to be saying that doesn't matter with the bolded section of your passage I quoted).
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but we (unfortunately) shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a "life sentence" means 25 years. The only time it becomes life in a practical sense is when consecutive life sentences are applied (as opposed to concurrent sentences). If our penal system was more successful at rehabilitation I might be ok with this situation, but things being as they seem to be, I call it bullshit.
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
It's also heartening to hear it reported that the mosque the punk (I refuse to use his name) attended here in Ontario brought concerns forward to the police about the punk.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but we (unfortunately) shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a "life sentence" means 25 years. The only time it becomes life in a practical sense is when consecutive life sentences are applied (as opposed to concurrent sentences). If our penal system was more successful at rehabilitation I might be ok with this situation, but things being as they seem to be, I call it bullshit.
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
A life sentence in Canada means life without the possibility of parole for 25 years, not 25 years in prison. Many people stay in prison for their entire lives because they never get paroled. It may be sad that he came from a military family, but the exact opposite of surprising. I've noticed that a lot of recent violent acts have been committed by ex-military, so it's not a huge stretch for the kid of ex-military got there too. I wouldn't mind a discussion about what can be done about this side-issue, actually. Seems like the military might need to think up some kind of program to confront the problem/pattern of extremism apparently growing within its own ranks.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but we (unfortunately) shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a "life sentence" means 25 years. The only time it becomes life in a practical sense is when consecutive life sentences are applied (as opposed to concurrent sentences). If our penal system was more successful at rehabilitation I might be ok with this situation, but things being as they seem to be, I call it bullshit.
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
A life sentence in Canada means life without the possibility of parole for 25 years, not 25 years in prison. Many people stay in prison for their entire lives because they never get paroled. It may be sad that he came from a military family, but the exact opposite of surprising. I've noticed that a lot of recent violent acts have been committed by ex-military, so it's not a huge stretch for the kid of ex-military got there too. I wouldn't mind a discussion about what can be done about this side-issue, actually. Seems like the military might need to think up some kind of program to confront the problem/pattern of extremism apparently growing within its own ranks.
D'oh, my confusion, sorry.
I'm not sure in this case the punk's behaviour would track back entirely to his father's military service (though it likely did contribute), sounds like his anger at the world began when his mother died when he was 7. Certainly something to look into, though it seems to me Bryan Adams came from a military family, so (as with most scenarios) it can go both ways. (Off to google if what I said about Bryan Adams is correct, lol).
Edit: Adams' father was a military officer, then a diplomat, which did move the family around the world on a regular basis (part of the point I was trying to make).
Post edited by DarthMaeglin on
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but we (unfortunately) shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a "life sentence" means 25 years. The only time it becomes life in a practical sense is when consecutive life sentences are applied (as opposed to concurrent sentences). If our penal system was more successful at rehabilitation I might be ok with this situation, but things being as they seem to be, I call it bullshit.
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
A life sentence in Canada means life without the possibility of parole for 25 years, not 25 years in prison. Many people stay in prison for their entire lives because they never get paroled. It may be sad that he came from a military family, but the exact opposite of surprising. I've noticed that a lot of recent violent acts have been committed by ex-military, so it's not a huge stretch for the kid of ex-military got there too. I wouldn't mind a discussion about what can be done about this side-issue, actually. Seems like the military might need to think up some kind of program to confront the problem/pattern of extremism apparently growing within its own ranks.
D'oh, my confusion, sorry.
I'm not sure in this case the punk's behaviour would track back entirely to his father's military service (though it likely did contribute), sounds like his anger at the world began when his mother died when he was 7. Certainly something to look into, though it seems to me Bryan Adams came from a military family, so (as with most scenarios) it can go both ways. (Off to google if what I said about Bryan Adams is correct, lol).
Oh, of course the vast majority of ex-military don't become terrorists or mass murderers, haha. It just does seem to be a pattern (more notably in the US of course), so I figure that military needs to really consider what could be done to prevent this. Especially since I believe that for every person who actually goes through with such a thing, there are several more who are on the edge. We already know that the military doesn't handle (or do enough to prevent) PTSD properly at all, which is likely one factor here. Another is likely tied to certain mainstay aspects of military culture. Perhaps some of those things are outdated and leading to psychological/social problems with some soldiers? I think something's going on there, anyway. The military basically promotes extreme violence (necessarily) and a certain level of aggression but, as far as I can tell, does relatively little to counteract that with ways to cope with that in a changing world.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Not trying to throw gasoline on the fire, but we (unfortunately) shouldn't lose sight of the fact that a "life sentence" means 25 years. The only time it becomes life in a practical sense is when consecutive life sentences are applied (as opposed to concurrent sentences). If our penal system was more successful at rehabilitation I might be ok with this situation, but things being as they seem to be, I call it bullshit.
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
A life sentence in Canada means life without the possibility of parole for 25 years, not 25 years in prison. Many people stay in prison for their entire lives because they never get paroled. It may be sad that he came from a military family, but the exact opposite of surprising. I've noticed that a lot of recent violent acts have been committed by ex-military, so it's not a huge stretch for the kid of ex-military got there too. I wouldn't mind a discussion about what can be done about this side-issue, actually. Seems like the military might need to think up some kind of program to confront the problem/pattern of extremism apparently growing within its own ranks.
D'oh, my confusion, sorry.
I'm not sure in this case the punk's behaviour would track back entirely to his father's military service (though it likely did contribute), sounds like his anger at the world began when his mother died when he was 7. Certainly something to look into, though it seems to me Bryan Adams came from a military family, so (as with most scenarios) it can go both ways. (Off to google if what I said about Bryan Adams is correct, lol).
Oh, of course the vast majority of ex-military don't become terrorists or mass murderers, haha. It just does seem to be a pattern (more notably in the US of course), so I figure that military needs to really consider what could be done to prevent this. Especially since I believe that for every person who actually goes through with such a thing, there are several more who are on the edge. We already know that the military doesn't handle (or do enough to prevent) PTSD properly at all, which is likely one factor here. Another is likely tied to certain mainstay aspects of military culture. Perhaps some of those things are outdated and leading to psychological/social problems with some soldiers? I think something's going on there, anyway. The military basically promotes extreme violence (necessarily) and a certain level of aggression but, as far as I can tell, does relatively little to counteract that with ways to cope with that in a changing world.
I agree with most of what you're saying there. When it comes to PTSD, it helps to remember that it's a condition that's only been acknowledged in the last century (shell shock, originally), within sciences that are essentially still in their infancy (psychology and psychiatry). Absolutely something our (I'll even say most) militaries need to get a better handle on, as you said.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
In the late 90s, an Angus Reid poll showed 70% of Canadians had little faith in the penal system and thought sentencing was too light for criminal behaviour.
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient. The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
everyone should read the full text of the link ...
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
Wrong.
That little quip you are pointing out is the opinion of an attorney scuttling to protect the integrity of the system that serves him so well. Canadians are a little more aware of the justice system's failings than you and he seem to suggest- they are in our face on a daily basis.
How come you never commented on this little piece (the post above the one you chose to speak to):
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your position when I say it seems as if you are defending our justice system here because that's sure what it seems you are doing.
dude ... you cherry picked the link you sent to support your bias ... i suggested to everyone to read the entire link instead of just your snippet ... which contained a point that I made earlier ...
my question to you is this ... is there a perfect criminal justice system anywhere in this world!??? ... if so - let me know which country that is ...
I submitted a piece titled, "Canadians Have Little Faith in Justice System" supporting the notion I had aforementioned (that Canadians have little faith in our justice system).
Hardly cherry picking.
I'll answer your question. No. But that doesn't mean we say, "Oh well. It's far from perfect, but meh... what are ya gonna do?"
I think our penal system is waaaaaaaaay too lenient for our criminals- in particular the violent ones that rape women, get early parole, and rape more women when on parole like the shithead I highlighted earlier.
Answer my question: do you think our justice system serves justice?
Edit: I should have had a 'please' in ^^^
it's not a matter of it's not perfect - let's not try to fix it ... it's a matter of there's no perfect justice system because it's virtually impossible to appease everyone ... especially a public that has a significant lack of understanding of the complexities ... all anyone really knows about the case is tidbits about what the media posts ... take omar khadr for example ... people who just read the headlines can't believe he is a free man but as someone who knows someone involved directly with his case - it's an absolute travesty what we did to that kid ... but many people think that just because his dad took him out there and put him in war zone that he should spend his life in jail ...
as Canadians we have to have a justice system that is representative of our values ... we don't have the death penalty because as a nation - it is not part of who we are as people ... we have a charter of rights and freedoms that is a pretty damn fucking good charter from someone who is not that patriotic ...
there are a million cases that go before the courts and they are all unique ... everything has to be weighed accordingly ...
so, to answer your question ... i think our justice system serves justice most of the time ... there are times where it may not seem like it does to me ... take constable forcillo for example ... but I understand that it isn't so easy to just say he should be in jail for 10 years ... there's a lot of factors that go into a decision ...
What I would say in response to your post is that the majority of Canadians don't feel as if our justice system does represent us as a people. This is evident in virtually all polls asking for opinion on the subject.
And to dismiss these sentiments as 'uninformed' or 'uneducated' is arrogant at best.
There are individual cases where the legal system has failed individuals, but the growing collection of cases where our criminals have been treated tenderly has become a mountain... and people are very tired of this.
Questions of guilt aside... we want our rapists in prison- not released after serving a portion of their pathetically weak sentences to go out and rape again.
What I just described is not a rare instance. It happens. Way too often.
I especially like how that donkey from Strathroy was released on a peace bond in 2015 ... that was apparently set to expire in August, nothing weak about the Canadian Justice System.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Comments
http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/2016/08/09/victim-frustrated-with-justice-system
Another recent example of a victim...
As to often question as to victim involvement. Victim of crime should be kept informed throughout the process...I don't think that's to much to ask. I tend to think the justice system is underfunded as to why victims are often left frustrated, just how I feel.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Our penal system is weak. Pathetic might be the more appropriate term. Good Canadians are tired of it. Revisions are necessary.
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
http://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-broken-its-criminal
A more recent study reveals the same attitudes exist: But research shows Canadians also see the courts as too slow to deliver justice, and judges as handing out sentences that are too lenient.
The research indicates the public believes victims are too often ignored in the justice system, and that prisons do a poor job of rehabilitating offenders.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/study-finds-canadians-have-little-confidence-in-justice-system-1.1689727
Policy makers think they know best I guess: early releases for violent rapists that were served laughable sentences to start with. If nobody here is empathetic with scumbags... our courts sure seem to be.
it's what i talked about before about misconceptions of our justice system ... people need to be educated ... thanks for pointing that out ...
That little quip you are pointing out is the opinion of an attorney scuttling to protect the integrity of the system that serves him so well. Canadians are a little more aware of the justice system's failings than you and he seem to suggest- they are in our face on a daily basis.
How come you never commented on this little piece (the post above the one you chose to speak to):
In 2001, Dean Robert Zimmerman was sentenced to jail for brutally raping, tormenting, and torturing his pregnant wife in an attack that lasted over 48 hours. He not only repeatedly assaulted her, but he also broke her nose and threatened to cut her unborn baby from her belly. And this attack took place while he was out on parole for the earlier violent rape of a 19-year-old woman.
Then, after serving less than four years in jail for that horrific attack, the guy was released and, on January 1, 2005, he committed yet another vicious attack, this time a nine-hour sex assault/torture session involving a toilet plunger and a 24-year-old Edmonton woman.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting your position when I say it seems as if you are defending our justice system here because that's sure what it seems you are doing.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/11/terror-suspect-aaron-driver-killed-in-southwestern-ontario-police-standoff.html
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
my question to you is this ... is there a perfect criminal justice system anywhere in this world!??? ... if so - let me know which country that is ...
Hardly cherry picking.
I'll answer your question. No. But that doesn't mean we say, "Oh well. It's far from perfect, but meh... what are ya gonna do?"
I think our penal system is waaaaaaaaay too lenient for our criminals- in particular the violent ones that rape women, get early parole, and rape more women when on parole like the shithead I highlighted earlier.
Answer my question: do you think our justice system serves justice?
Edit: I should have had a 'please' in ^^^
I don't think we need to concern ourselves with people's rights and freedoms when they are collaborating with our enemies and plotting to bring harm to Canadians doing Canadian things in Canada. We don't need to wait until something happens before we arrest him and we don't need to place 24 hour surveillance on him so that he can't (all at the taxpayer's expense).
Telling him to stop contacting ISIS? Knowing he persisted? Come on, man.
I would get on board with that idea and even trying to solicit information from him- although he likely wouldn't serve much up.
For you suggesting there is a grey area to operate... trust is granted to authorities. On this forum... that's not too popular of an idea; however, I agree that the service needs latitude sometimes to do their jobs.
To me, the system seemed to work well. Bad guy didn't take any innocent lives.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/health-canada-sets-rules-for-patients-wanting-to-grow-medical-marijuana/article31377683/
Great decision....will help many people who have trouble affording the cost.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
And... let's get serious: the guy wasn't just a run of the mill idiot. He was known to be collaborating with ISIS which forfeits the rights afforded to him (even though you seem to be saying that doesn't matter with the bolded section of your passage I quoted).
Also, to add a bit of clarification, it seems that the RCMP acted on a tip from the FBI (which included the "martyr video"), according to this afternoon's press conference (the RCMP were monitoring the subject at the time). Kudos to effective cross-border cooperation.
It's also sad this punk came from a military family, in my opinion.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
It's also heartening to hear it reported that the mosque the punk (I refuse to use his name) attended here in Ontario brought concerns forward to the police about the punk.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
It may be sad that he came from a military family, but the exact opposite of surprising. I've noticed that a lot of recent violent acts have been committed by ex-military, so it's not a huge stretch for the kid of ex-military got there too. I wouldn't mind a discussion about what can be done about this side-issue, actually. Seems like the military might need to think up some kind of program to confront the problem/pattern of extremism apparently growing within its own ranks.
I'm not sure in this case the punk's behaviour would track back entirely to his father's military service (though it likely did contribute), sounds like his anger at the world began when his mother died when he was 7. Certainly something to look into, though it seems to me Bryan Adams came from a military family, so (as with most scenarios) it can go both ways. (Off to google if what I said about Bryan Adams is correct, lol).
Edit: Adams' father was a military officer, then a diplomat, which did move the family around the world on a regular basis (part of the point I was trying to make).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
as Canadians we have to have a justice system that is representative of our values ... we don't have the death penalty because as a nation - it is not part of who we are as people ... we have a charter of rights and freedoms that is a pretty damn fucking good charter from someone who is not that patriotic ...
there are a million cases that go before the courts and they are all unique ... everything has to be weighed accordingly ...
so, to answer your question ... i think our justice system serves justice most of the time ... there are times where it may not seem like it does to me ... take constable forcillo for example ... but I understand that it isn't so easy to just say he should be in jail for 10 years ... there's a lot of factors that go into a decision ...
What I would say in response to your post is that the majority of Canadians don't feel as if our justice system does represent us as a people. This is evident in virtually all polls asking for opinion on the subject.
And to dismiss these sentiments as 'uninformed' or 'uneducated' is arrogant at best.
There are individual cases where the legal system has failed individuals, but the growing collection of cases where our criminals have been treated tenderly has become a mountain... and people are very tired of this.
Questions of guilt aside... we want our rapists in prison- not released after serving a portion of their pathetically weak sentences to go out and rape again.
What I just described is not a rare instance. It happens. Way too often.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon