Canadian Politics Redux

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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    It all about PROOF that holds up in a Canadian court of law. Just just about how you think it should hold up, but how it actually holds up in real life and is at the mercy of all kinds of technicalities. That is the crux of the entire issue and what is behind Trudeau's perspective on it. It's more complicated than you seem to think.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    It all about PROOF that holds up in a Canadian court of law. Just just about how you think it should hold up, but how it actually holds up in real life and is at the mercy of all kinds of technicalities. That is the crux of the entire issue and what is behind Trudeau's perspective on it. It's more complicated than you seem to think.
    I know it's complicated, but you need to pick your fights.

    This is one I'd pick as the prime minister. I wouldn't be shrugging my shoulders saying. "Meh. What are ya gonna do?" when ISIS operatives seek refuge back home from a scrap gone badly for them.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    edited May 2018
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It all about PROOF that holds up in a Canadian court of law. Just just about how you think it should hold up, but how it actually holds up in real life and is at the mercy of all kinds of technicalities. That is the crux of the entire issue and what is behind Trudeau's perspective on it. It's more complicated than you seem to think.
    I know it's complicated, but you need to pick your fights.

    This is one I'd pick as the prime minister. I wouldn't be shrugging my shoulders saying. "Meh. What are ya gonna do?" when ISIS operatives seek refuge back home from a scrap gone badly for them.
    I don't think he's shrugging his shoulders - he's specifically chosen a road to go down (or at least wants to go down), and it's not based on moronic ideas. It's actually based on valid ideas that he didn't come up with himself. You and I and others may not agree with that path, but just writing it off as moronic or being hyperbolic about Trudeau's motivations is lazy, unhelpful, and actually does everyone a disservice because it necessarily dismisses all of the important factors that the PM actually is taking into account and that everyone should be taking into account when forming their own opinions about this. You know I don't agree with the PM. All I'm trying to say is that the discourse surrounding this issue needs to remain rational, and not fed by hysterical hyperbole of the brand that Meltdown favours (and you too, when you're feeling more emotional, lol). From what I can tell, Meltdown and so many other Canadians barely even know what they're talking about when it comes to this issue, but are ready and willing to just say "THAT'S STUPID! HE'S AN IDIOT! HE LOVES TERRORISTS!" I think this is harmful. If enough people keep pulling that shit, we're going to end up just like America, being suckered into living under a populist government.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    ISIS operatives should be arrested by military police and charged as traitors and capital punishment should apply always ifs found guilty...

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    edited May 2018
    Meltdown99 said:
    ISIS operatives should be arrested by military police and charged as traitors and capital punishment should apply always ifs found guilty...

    Sure, in a different dimension where any of that is legal, lol. And where they have devised a way to ensure that people don't get falsely accused when there are no records on anything they supposedly did to become traitors.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    ISIS operatives should be arrested by military police and charged as traitors and capital punishment should apply always ifs found guilty...

    Sure, in a different dimension where any of that is legal, lol. And where they have devised a way to ensure that people don't get falsely accused when there are no records on anything they supposedly did to become traitors.
    From what I have read, we have assisted ISIS operatives knowing their guilt.

    He has more license within the confines of the law than he has cared to exercise.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    ISIS operatives should be arrested by military police and charged as traitors and capital punishment should apply always ifs found guilty...

    Sure, in a different dimension where any of that is legal, lol. And where they have devised a way to ensure that people don't get falsely accused when there are no records on anything they supposedly did to become traitors.
    From what I have read, we have assisted ISIS operatives knowing their guilt.

    He has more license within the confines of the law than he has cared to exercise.
    Yes, the legal issues combine with another theory, which I think we've discussed before. It's a legit theory of course - rehabilitation, etc, largely borrowed from Scandinavian countries - and recall that I pointed out that the hyperbolic chatter made it sound like the PM wanted every single one of the accused/suspected to turn around and be rehabilitated and do some good, which, of course, isn't true at all. See, if all the lies made up about the PM's perspective on his issue were true, then yeah, he'd be a moron. But they aren't so he isn't, whether you agree with him or not.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    ISIS operatives should be arrested by military police and charged as traitors and capital punishment should apply always ifs found guilty...

    Sure, in a different dimension where any of that is legal, lol. And where they have devised a way to ensure that people don't get falsely accused when there are no records on anything they supposedly did to become traitors.
    From what I have read, we have assisted ISIS operatives knowing their guilt.

    He has more license within the confines of the law than he has cared to exercise.
    Yes, the legal issues combine with another theory, which I think we've discussed before. It's a legit theory of course - rehabilitation, etc, largely borrowed from Scandinavian countries - and recall that I pointed out that the hyperbolic chatter made it sound like the PM wanted every single one of the accused/suspected to turn around and be rehabilitated and do some good, which, of course, isn't true at all. See, if all the lies made up about the PM's perspective on his issue were true, then yeah, he'd be a moron. But they aren't so he isn't, whether you agree with him or not.

    Of the 160 'returned ISIS guys'... there might just be a few capable of being 'rehabilitated' (if that's what you want to call it- I'd call it 'converted'). That leaves at least a chunk of angry, f**ked up individuals living among us. This is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. At best... they remain threats at large. At worst... they remain threats at large, manage to bring other idiots into the fold selling them the ideology, and act out with violence like we see in Europe.

    The majority of Canadians aren't interested in 'converting' religious fanatics who have slaughtered people into average joes contributing to Canadian society like Scandinavian countries might be interested in doing. The majority of Canadians want such people to stand accountable for their crimes which are egregious (to say the least of them).

    You said a mouthful when you said 'the hyperbolic chatter made it sound like the PM wanted every single one of the accused/suspected to turn around and be rehabilitated and do some good, which, of course, isn't true at all'. You are correct and what you have said- in addition to what I stated in my first passage to you- makes Trudeau a moron.

    If one isn't very concerned with things like justice and security... then maybe he's not a moron.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    edited May 2018
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here and if he wasn't acknowledging them, and if he didn't have real life models to base his ideas on, then he'd be a moron. As it is, I think think his biggest problem is that he or his people didn't do a very good job at all in presenting their ideas and theories. They made the mistake of assuming the public would not get all hysterical, and that they would read between the lines, and that they'd be patient about finding out more details. They were wrong.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,745
    edited May 2018
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    Yes, that's right, it does. Sure, it's frustrating, but it certainly isn't Trudeau's fault.
    As I stated... I agree that the PM should be confronting this differently (and I wish he wasn't for the pipeline, but he never claimed otherwise, so that part isn't at all surprising to me). My only point has always been that he's not a moron for his view, doesn't want to give terrorists hugs, lol, and that hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by people on social media that completely warps reality and is just brainless propaganda is damaging and really the only moronic thing going on in this regard. It worries me because it's just so... Trumpian.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    Yes, that's right, it does. Sure, it's frustrating, but it certainly isn't Trudeau's fault.
    As I stated... I agree that the PM should be confronting this differently (and I wish he wasn't for the pipeline, but he never claimed otherwise, so that part isn't at all surprising to me). My only point has always been that he's not a moron for his view, doesn't want to give terrorists hugs, lol, and that hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by people on social media that completely warps reality and is just brainless propaganda is damaging and really the only moronic thing going on in this regard. It worries me because it's just so... Trumpian.

    We're really close here.

    I still think Trudeau has responsibility here because it's his leadership to challenge the process and pursue the legal avenues he has to thwart the return of beheaders.

    What worries me is the fact that such light and passive leadership on issues such as this damages the left position (and rightly so). Some of the stuff you are talking about is rearing its head as a result of failed leadership and responsibility to the Canadian public in these matters. 
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,139
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    Yes, that's right, it does. Sure, it's frustrating, but it certainly isn't Trudeau's fault.
    As I stated... I agree that the PM should be confronting this differently (and I wish he wasn't for the pipeline, but he never claimed otherwise, so that part isn't at all surprising to me). My only point has always been that he's not a moron for his view, doesn't want to give terrorists hugs, lol, and that hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by people on social media that completely warps reality and is just brainless propaganda is damaging and really the only moronic thing going on in this regard. It worries me because it's just so... Trumpian.

    We're really close here.

    I still think Trudeau has responsibility here because it's his leadership to challenge the process and pursue the legal avenues he has to thwart the return of beheaders.

    What worries me is the fact that such light and passive leadership on issues such as this damages the left position (and rightly so). Some of the stuff you are talking about is rearing its head as a result of failed leadership and responsibility to the Canadian public in these matters. 
    Again I could google this but I'll ask the two of you....if an ISIS fighter returns home to canada you can't prosecute him or her?  Is that correct?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    I'm not an expert, but it depends on what we would be prosecuting them for.

    Our courts will only entertain crimes against Canada or Canadians... so... with no extradition treaties in place... the 160 returned ISIS fighters will get a pass for lopping heads off Syrians.

    We did a fantastic job of allowing them to play 'terror voyeurs' and safely scurry home to a welcoming country before they needed to answer for their actions. And now that they are safe and sound... ready to regroup and plot against some more infidels... we don't feel they have done anything against our national interest that warrants charges.

    Well... actually... only a few feel that way: our outrageously handsome PM is one.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    John Ivison: If self-confessed ISIL killer is not held accountable, who will be?

    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-if-self-confessed-isil-killer-is-not-held-accountable-who-will-be

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739

    mcgruff10 said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    Yes, that's right, it does. Sure, it's frustrating, but it certainly isn't Trudeau's fault.
    As I stated... I agree that the PM should be confronting this differently (and I wish he wasn't for the pipeline, but he never claimed otherwise, so that part isn't at all surprising to me). My only point has always been that he's not a moron for his view, doesn't want to give terrorists hugs, lol, and that hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by people on social media that completely warps reality and is just brainless propaganda is damaging and really the only moronic thing going on in this regard. It worries me because it's just so... Trumpian.

    We're really close here.

    I still think Trudeau has responsibility here because it's his leadership to challenge the process and pursue the legal avenues he has to thwart the return of beheaders.

    What worries me is the fact that such light and passive leadership on issues such as this damages the left position (and rightly so). Some of the stuff you are talking about is rearing its head as a result of failed leadership and responsibility to the Canadian public in these matters. 
    Again I could google this but I'll ask the two of you....if an ISIS fighter returns home to canada you can't prosecute him or her?  Is that correct?
    mcgruff10 said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, if he weren't cognizant of the legal difficulties and technicalities involved here, then he'd be a moron.

    So Canadian law makes it difficult to challenge returning ISIS fighters coming home after things didn't work out very well for them? Surprising (sarcasm fully intended!).

    But not impossible given the spectrum of the law.

    As I stated... sometimes you need to pick your fights. If I was PM... this would definitely be one I'd be picking. Not ours though. Our PM seems to be rolling up his sleeves for a fight with BC to build a pipeline. He's in the corner in front of ISIS guys and Texas oil tycoons opposing average Canadians.
    Yes, that's right, it does. Sure, it's frustrating, but it certainly isn't Trudeau's fault.
    As I stated... I agree that the PM should be confronting this differently (and I wish he wasn't for the pipeline, but he never claimed otherwise, so that part isn't at all surprising to me). My only point has always been that he's not a moron for his view, doesn't want to give terrorists hugs, lol, and that hyperbolic bullshit being spewed by people on social media that completely warps reality and is just brainless propaganda is damaging and really the only moronic thing going on in this regard. It worries me because it's just so... Trumpian.

    We're really close here.

    I still think Trudeau has responsibility here because it's his leadership to challenge the process and pursue the legal avenues he has to thwart the return of beheaders.

    What worries me is the fact that such light and passive leadership on issues such as this damages the left position (and rightly so). Some of the stuff you are talking about is rearing its head as a result of failed leadership and responsibility to the Canadian public in these matters. 
    Again I could google this but I'll ask the two of you....if an ISIS fighter returns home to canada you can't prosecute him or her?  Is that correct?
    The PM of Canada prefers hugs over accountability...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,139
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    I'm not an expert, but it depends on what we would be prosecuting them for.

    Our courts will only entertain crimes against Canada or Canadians... so... with no extradition treaties in place... the 160 returned ISIS fighters will get a pass for lopping heads off Syrians.

    We did a fantastic job of allowing them to play 'terror voyeurs' and safely scurry home to a welcoming country before they needed to answer for their actions. And now that they are safe and sound... ready to regroup and plot against some more infidels... we don't feel they have done anything against our national interest that warrants charges.

    Well... actually... only a few feel that way: our outrageously handsome PM is one.
    wow.  I'm speechless.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    mcgruff10 said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    I'm not an expert, but it depends on what we would be prosecuting them for.

    Our courts will only entertain crimes against Canada or Canadians... so... with no extradition treaties in place... the 160 returned ISIS fighters will get a pass for lopping heads off Syrians.

    We did a fantastic job of allowing them to play 'terror voyeurs' and safely scurry home to a welcoming country before they needed to answer for their actions. And now that they are safe and sound... ready to regroup and plot against some more infidels... we don't feel they have done anything against our national interest that warrants charges.

    Well... actually... only a few feel that way: our outrageously handsome PM is one.
    wow.  I'm speechless.

    I could be wrong though, Scruffy. This is what I think the reality is. I leave myself exposed to being educated more thoroughly on this issue.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    If there are no laws in place that allow for the prosecution of these scum ... then that's on Trudeau ... he's had 21/2 years to pass legislation allowing for the prosecution of returning ISIS fighters.  I find it hard to believe that we do not have laws in place that would allow the military to charge the scum as enemy combatants...but our military is all political anyways...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Does the law prevent Canada from killing its 'terrorist travellers'?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/killing-canadian-jihadis-death-squads-1.4429137

    We should have followed the lead of the US, France and the UK on this one.
    Give Peas A Chance…
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