The real causes of mass shootings?

ldent42

oftenreading said:

I was just thinking along the line mentioned above by mickeyrat this morning.

I think there are two intersecting factors that promote this phenomenon. The first is the way the US fetishizes celebrity over actual accomplishment. People are willing to humiliate themselves, to be known as absolute buffoons and trainwrecks, just to be famous. It seems that notoriety is the most important goal in life, and for those who begin to realize in their late teens/early twenties that they really aren't that special and likely won't have any great accomplishments, the only way to do something spectacular is to kill people in as dramatic a way as possible.

The second factor is the way that the US reveres the myth of the "rugged individual". There's little or no sense of working for a collective good. Most other countries still have at least some sense of willingness to sacrifice a bit of personal gain to improve the common lot, but that is mostly absent in the US. You can see this in the laughable tendency to call anyone who advocates for accessible health services a socialist, here defined as "anti-American".

Both true.
With regard to how mental health is handled in the US, I can't really speak to it because I haven't had to deal with it. I know there are statistics very plainly demonstrating that there's a disproportionate number of mentally disturbed people in prison as opposed to being in a mental health facility. There's also a huge stigma about mental illness. You can even see in the way people talk about this shooter. It's common to just refer to him as a lunatic or a nutjob as if like - i mean we have no issue dehumanizing people with mental illness. Like it could be something simple like bipolar disorder and we're just like "oh right, he's crazy". The services just aren't there. Like if you have insurance you have to be proactive about it and actually ask to see a shrink and either get a referral from your GP or pick a name out of a book. So if you don't think there's anything wrong with you OR if you are embarrassed to see a shrink (especially for men cuz it's like "admitting weakness" or something) the only way you're going to get in to see one is if you do something and get court appointed therapy. I don't know how this works in other countries. In the last year I tried to convince two people to go see a shrink. One friend is struggling with addiction problems a lot and the other was for grief counselling. She went but the shrink was giving her side eye about bringing her daughter to appointments (cuz there was no one to watch her) so she stopped going cuz it made her feel worse and more alone.

The whole "bootstraps" mentality probably has a lot to do with it.

PJ_Soul

All true about how mental health seems to be handled, but I don't know if any of that is particular to the USA.....

jnimhaoileoin

PJ_Soul said:

All true about how mental health seems to be handled, but I don't know if any of that is particular to the USA.....

I don't think so, our mental health services in Ireland are pretty crap, though we are certainly getting better at talking about these issues openly.

I still think it's something deeper within American society

Annafalk

I'm from Sweden and I think we would have the same problems if our gun laws was as generous. I only know one person owning some sort of gun and it's for hunting reasons, it must be locked in a safety box when not in use.

Although even if the laws were stricter it would'nt help these young people feeling as bad as they apparently do. Maybe schools should do more to break the isolation and loneliness that some pupils go through everyday.

People who are very lonely can easily get depressed the negative spiral spins on with maybe darker thoughts and more aggressive feelings toward others. Like it's no point to try to make them like me. The person has given up in trying.
No one is born a monster these things can be prevented from happening.

Gern Blansten

g under p said:

Joe Olson–the former president of Umpqua Community College–says the school only keeps one guard on shift at a time and that guard is unarmed.
Olson left his position in June. He says one of the biggest debates at the school in 2014 was whether or not to hire armed officers.
On November 5, 2014 a http://www.mainstreamonline.org/articles/41/02/Armed Guard.php campus communique said the Umpqua Community College community was “split 50-50″ on what to do. According to the http://www.breitbart.com/news/the-latest-oregon-college-had-unarmed-officer-ex-head-says/ Associated Press, Olson presumes the October 1 attack will reignite the discussion not only for Umpqua Community College but for community colleges around the country.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/former-us-marshal-oregon-gunman-chose-gun-free-facility-umpqua-community-college/"]Breitbart News previously reported that the Umpqua campus is a gun free zone. Former U.S. Marshal Art Roderick suggested the gunman chose the campus for that very reason. He said, “[The gunman] probably knew that the facility was a gun free facility, [which is] an easy target for these kinds of coward individuals. They know they’re not going to get any response unless they happen to run into security or a campus police officer.”
Roderick’s words are bolstered by the former school president’s http://www.breitbart.com/news/the-latest-oregon-college-had-unarmed-officer-ex-head-says/" admission that “the school has only one security officer on duty at a time, and that person isn’t armed.”

Gun free zones APPEAR to offer zero resistance to armed persons who are criminally motivated. What is the answer to those who are criminally motivated?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/umpqua-community-college-uses-unarmed-security-guards/

Peace

It's interesting to me that the right doesn't think that stricter gun laws will help but they do believe that an armed guard (s) would prevent this issue.

This Breitbart article seems to ignore that the shooter was a student there. That's why he chose to shoot the place up, not because it was gun free (which it wasn't...multiple students carry guns as referenced here before.)

Unless there are guards/metal detectors at every doorway a shooter situation will always be possible.

Who Princess

Wow, John Oliver does a spot on job of explaining the state of mental health care in this country: http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/watch-john-oliver-explain-broken-u-s-mental-health-systems-20151005
The clip is a little long but he covers the issues so well, and with appropriate humor thrown in.

Many years ago, I worked for a nonprofit agency that advocated on behalf of people with mental illness. It's sad to say that the issues I dealt with in the 1980s haven't changed.

HughFreakingDillon

rr165892 said:

I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.

I mentioned this a few days ago that might mitigate these shootings. we need stop publicizing the person and making them famous. I think that is a big draw for these people; they feel like nothing, so they do something to make themselves SOMETHING.

talk about the victims. talk about the shooter too, but don't name him or show his picture. the media needs to get on board with this. I think it will have an impact.

Walking the miles

Great topic and discussion everyone.

I think what may be unique to the American experience is the "American Dream". And maybe this might be some of the problem. The devastation from not achieving the American dream may be too great for these people. "The Dream" is splashed all over every media outlet in the U.S. This pressure is not applied as much in other countries. Maybe, there's more balance in other countries. Where personal happiness, and the happiness of those around you is more the goal. Not the NEED to obtain celebrity, or "specialness", rather than happiness. There is a great need to be "special" in America. I think not stating the name of the perpetrator in these crimes might be a good start in the media. I was watching a Canadian news program (which at times is no better) broadcast the most recent story, and they went through the whole piece without mentioning the killers name (I was thinking, "Good for them"), and then at the VERY END they read the first, MIDDLE, and last name of the person! Totally unneccesary. Also, I agree with what oftenreading stated above:

"Most other countries still have at least some sense of willingness to sacrifice a bit of personal gain to improve the common lot, but that is mostly absent in the US. You can see this in the laughable tendency to call anyone who advocates for accessible health services a socialist, here defined as "anti-American"."

Listen, I have met plenty of Americans, and they have almost all been very nice, well-adjusted people, hardworking, and entrepreneurial in spirit, but maybe, to be general, they don't have as much empathy for those that have fallen by the wayside.

I think America needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, and maybe re-think, and re-focus, "the American Dream" and what it means.

HughFreakingDillon

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

We aren't gun nuts. It's the gun culture IMO. It always comes back to the American gun culture.

Walking the miles

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

I think as Canadians we act a little as voyeurs to the american lifeastyle, we have a slight seperation from it, but only a slight. Believe me, I think as Canadians we need to be careful or we may follow into the same situations. Timing wise we may be just a little delayed. You know the classic 10 to 1 ratio may be the same thing here. We should pay attention!

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

We aren't gun nuts. It's the gun culture IMO. It always comes back to the American gun culture.

I suppose. having never even held a gun, I don't get it. but went to a buddy's place, and was APPALLED that he had this flimsy little locker in his laundry room where he kept all his hunting rifles. I said to myself right then and there "I am never bringing my kids here". there's something that never sits well with me, seeing pictures of him and his young son in fatigues, holding up their latest kill. big smiles. "that's my boy" they are always captioned.

my pictures are of my daughters holding roses after their dance recitals.

HughFreakingDillon

Walking the miles said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

I think as Canadians we act a little as voyeurs to the american lifeastyle, we have a slight seperation from it, but only a slight. Believe me, I think as Canadians we need to be careful or we may follow into the same situations. Timing wise we may be just a little delayed. You know the classic 10 to 1 ratio may be the same thing here. We should pay attention!

I see what you are saying, but I just can't see our culture progressing that way. not that violently. it just isn't accepted here.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

We aren't gun nuts. It's the gun culture IMO. It always comes back to the American gun culture.

I suppose. having never even held a gun, I don't get it. but went to a buddy's place, and was APPALLED that he had this flimsy little locker in his laundry room where he kept all his hunting rifles. I said to myself right then and there "I am never bringing my kids here". there's something that never sits well with me, seeing pictures of him and his young son in fatigues, holding up their latest kill. big smiles. "that's my boy" they are always captioned.

my pictures are of my daughters holding roses after their dance recitals.

I'm with you. I think that teaching your kids to get actual joy and pride out of murdering a wild animal and that guns are a toy used for entertainment is completely twisted. And if I had kids I also would not feel comfortable letting them be in a home with firearms in it. Not that that would ever be an issue. I don't know a single Canadian person who has a gun of any kind.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

We aren't gun nuts. It's the gun culture IMO. It always comes back to the American gun culture.

I suppose. having never even held a gun, I don't get it. but went to a buddy's place, and was APPALLED that he had this flimsy little locker in his laundry room where he kept all his hunting rifles. I said to myself right then and there "I am never bringing my kids here". there's something that never sits well with me, seeing pictures of him and his young son in fatigues, holding up their latest kill. big smiles. "that's my boy" they are always captioned.

my pictures are of my daughters holding roses after their dance recitals.

I'm with you. I think that teaching your kids to get actual joy and pride out of murdering a wild animal and that guns are a toy used for entertainment is completely twisted. And if I had kids I also would not feel comfortable letting them be in a home with firearms in it. Not that that would ever be an issue. I don't know a single Canadian person who has a gun of any kind.

I only know 2 people, that I know of, that do. hunting rifles. I'm sure there are others that I don't know about, but they don't post pictures of their kills on facebook.

jnimhaoileoin

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

I think Canada is different in terms of culture and society. Perhaps you still retain a cultural link to Britain and are a little more similar to the British in disposition than the Americans? I think the cultural make-up of Canada is different due to different immigration patterns and this has lead to a different and dare I say, healthier, society.

Out of interest, what's the social welfare set up like in Canada? Do you get decent holidays from work and good maternity leave etc?

HughFreakingDillon

jnimhaoileoin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

I think Canada is different in terms of culture and society. Perhaps you still retain a cultural link to Britain and are a little more similar to the British in disposition than the Americans? I think the cultural make-up of Canada is different due to different immigration patterns and this has lead to a different and dare I say, healthier, society.

Out of interest, what's the social welfare set up like in Canada? Do you get decent holidays from work and good maternity leave etc?

one year paid maternity leave, 60% of your gross salary (but also not taxed) up to a maximum.
I have 5 weeks paid holidays, but I also have been at my job for 17 years. and that is different from industry to industry, and company to company.
daycare is licensed and subsidized by the provincial government, so we pay about $20 a day each kid. for kids under 2, the cost is about 50% higher (the ratio of worker to child is much lower).

jnimhaoileoin

HughFreakingDillon said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

but what about Canada is so different from America, culture-wise? no, we're not all super nice country folk. there are just as many (relatively speaking, of course) assholes and mentally unstable people in Canada as there are in America. so why don't Canadians go shoot up schools and movie theatres? we are inundadated with the same unattainable bubble gum Paris Hilton lives and voilent bullshit in the media as they are. so what's different?

I think Canada is different in terms of culture and society. Perhaps you still retain a cultural link to Britain and are a little more similar to the British in disposition than the Americans? I think the cultural make-up of Canada is different due to different immigration patterns and this has lead to a different and dare I say, healthier, society.

Out of interest, what's the social welfare set up like in Canada? Do you get decent holidays from work and good maternity leave etc?

one year paid maternity leave, 60% of your gross salary (but also not taxed) up to a maximum.
I have 5 weeks paid holidays, but I also have been at my job for 17 years. and that is different from industry to industry, and company to company.
daycare is licensed and subsidized by the provincial government, so we pay about $20 a day each kid. for kids under 2, the cost is about 50% higher (the ratio of worker to child is much lower).

Certainly sounds a lot more progressive than America. Perhaps it's not too great a leap to suggest that more socialist societies lead to a happier population (Denmark being a prime example) and accordingly lower rates of crime and in particular fewer incidents of violent crime against your fellow citizens

gimmesometruth27

i think deep down in the american psyche for some reason we like people who are jerks. look at reality tv. the jerks get the highest ratings because they are exciting. look at trump, he is a jerk and he was leading all the polls to be our representative on the world stage. "i am american and nobody is going to tell me what to do" kind of thing.

i think the biggest problem with our country is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the imbeciles are full of confidence. this can be said about dems vs reps, and gun people vs gun control people.

dudeman

gimmesometruth27 said:

i think deep down in the american psyche for some reason we like people who are jerks. look at reality tv. the jerks get the highest ratings because they are exciting. look at trump, he is a jerk and he was leading all the polls to be our representative on the world stage. "i am american and nobody is going to tell me what to do" kind of thing.

i think the biggest problem with our country is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the imbeciles are full of confidence. this can be said about dems vs reps, and gun people vs gun control people.

Nicely said.