The real causes of mass shootings?

jnimhaoileoin

Leezestarr313 said:

Very good thread. As a European in the US, I have been asking myself and others the same questions as the OP a lot. To varying degrees of willingness to discuss. Which is understandable. But I just wanted to say thank you, because reading the OP's perspective makes me feel less like I am an idiot who doesn't see the point. and reading the discussion in here helps with that as well. Good job, folks.

No idiots here, just people trying to understand. Our countries are so very different, all we can do is share our varying perspectives

Leezestarr313

It is such a heated topic though, and I want to give props to all who contributed in here so far for making this a very interesting and civilised discussion with lots of information

Who Princess

One thing that seems to happen in the aftermath of these mass shootings is some vigorous discussion about who and why, then we retreat back to our everyday lives. Then suddenly it happens again. Maybe if we kept the conversation going afterwards, instead of shutting it away, we could have meaningful discussion about preventing these horrible incidents. Maybe we would start to feel more connected to each other.

I think the earlier comparison with suicide bombers is accurate. Isolated, disaffected youth who want to feel part of something big. I'm not sure how we identify those people though. People tend to blame the shooters' families afterwards, which I don't agree with. The shooter makes his choices and sometimes his own family are among the victims. I also think many of them can disguise their behavior, even from the people they live with. When I was a teenager, I knew ways to keep things from my parents. Fortunately, none of those things had deadly consequences.

To me, the greatest need by far is for mental health services. This is one of those things that gets discussed after shootings but nothing ever seems to materialize. I could say tons about sensible gun control and keeping guns out of the hands of the people who commit these crimes but again, how do we figure out who they are?

I think the internet and social media have definitely been a factor. People have so much more (bad, inaccurate) information at hand that formerly would have been unavailable. They can connect with other disturbed and hateful people. They can hide their identities and be whoever they want to be online, spewing out all kinds of hate.

This is definitely a good discussion and thanks to the OP for getting it started.

rr165892

Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck).
We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida.
My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.

I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.

JWPearl

rr165892 said:

Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck).
We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida.
My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.

I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.

i totally agree with the scrupals of this post
about violence
even though it has nothing to do with
what i was wondering..

rr165892

JW,I'm still trying to get the gist of what you were asking.Which "like ones" need speaking for?

JWPearl

I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).

i dont want to be like these people corrupted which is why i dont watch these things called violence and i fully appreciated your post..

mcgruff10

rr165892 said:

Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck).
We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida.
My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.

I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.

Great post bud! And I love what the sheriff is doing!!! Fuck giving these assholes any sort of time in the lime light.

dudeman

rr165892 said:

Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck).
We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida.
My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.

I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.

You guys had each other to turn to and you're also 10 to 15 years older than those in the age group I am referring to. Imagine that you were an only child that was bullied at school, had no friends or anyone who gave a shit about you. That can mess up a young person. I'm not saying that divorce is the only factor behind these shooters, but if you look at their childhoods, I'm pretty certain that many of them share similar childhood experiences.

I completely agree with the things you mention in your second and third paragraphs.

rr165892

So if we all agree on the why,or at least the basics of it.Then how do we get to the point where intervention can prevent further tragedy? I think that is the big enigma

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Trump has some ideas: he thinks the shooters are sick geniuses.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/04/donald-trump-oregon-mass-shooting-gunmen-geniuses

He's also not worried because he figures he's like Charles Bronson and if anyone was ever going to get him... he'd go Death Wish on them.

I think he actually believes himself.

g under p

Joe Olson–the former president of Umpqua Community College–says the school only keeps one guard on shift at a time and that guard is unarmed.
Olson left his position in June. He says one of the biggest debates at the school in 2014 was whether or not to hire armed officers.
On November 5, 2014 a http://www.mainstreamonline.org/articles/41/02/Armed Guard.php campus communique said the Umpqua Community College community was “split 50-50″ on what to do. According to the http://www.breitbart.com/news/the-latest-oregon-college-had-unarmed-officer-ex-head-says/ Associated Press, Olson presumes the October 1 attack will reignite the discussion not only for Umpqua Community College but for community colleges around the country.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/former-us-marshal-oregon-gunman-chose-gun-free-facility-umpqua-community-college/"]Breitbart News previously reported that the Umpqua campus is a gun free zone. Former U.S. Marshal Art Roderick suggested the gunman chose the campus for that very reason. He said, “[The gunman] probably knew that the facility was a gun free facility, [which is] an easy target for these kinds of coward individuals. They know they’re not going to get any response unless they happen to run into security or a campus police officer.”
Roderick’s words are bolstered by the former school president’s http://www.breitbart.com/news/the-latest-oregon-college-had-unarmed-officer-ex-head-says/" admission that “the school has only one security officer on duty at a time, and that person isn’t armed.”

Gun free zones APPEAR to offer zero resistance to armed persons who are criminally motivated. What is the answer to those who are criminally motivated?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/01/umpqua-community-college-uses-unarmed-security-guards/

Peace

hedonist

Who P and rr, great posts. Overall, great discussion.

dignin

No evidence that the internet and violent video games have anything to do with mass shootings.

Mass killings happened before these things were around.

hedonist

That's why it's not cut-and-dried; so many variables, with the two you mentioned among them.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

No evidence that the internet and violent video games have anything to do with mass shootings.

Mass killings happened before these things were around.

Not to mention the fact that other countries have internet and violent video games without the same problem.

The problem seems to be internal. I look at internal conditions that distinguish the US from other countries for the root of the epidemic. I see means as one (guns and lots of them). The other variables are harder to determine: but the effects of these variables manifest themselves as feelings of inadequacy, desperation, and anger.

Underlying conditions play a part to in the creation of a mass murderer: not every person afflicted with despair and anger attempt mass murder. Instability cannot be understated.

PJ_Soul

I agree that you need to look at causes that are particular to the USA, and such things as the internet and violent video games most certainly are not. In fact, these things are insanely popular in several nations that have some of the lowest incident rates in the world. So it has to be something else IMO. There may be things thst think he's e shooters tend to gravitate towards because of their problems or ideas, like first persons shooter games or weirdo websites, etc, but that is much different than those things being a cause. I'm not even con iced that it's about how the US handles mental illness. Other countries have issues with handling mental illness as well but aren't experiencing a bunch of mass shootings. However, I couod be missing something, since I don't know much about the details of how the US deals with mental illness... are they much, much worse at dealing with it that other nations?? I don't see why that would be.

g under p

PJ_Soul said:

I agree that you need to look at causes that are particular to the USA, and such things as the internet and violent video games most certainly are not. In fact, these things are insanely popular in several nations that have some of the lowest incident rates in the world. So it has to be something else IMO. There may be things thst think he's e shooters tend to gravitate towards because of their problems or ideas, like first persons shooter games or weirdo websites, etc, but that is much different than those things being a cause. I'm not even con iced that it's about how the US handles mental illness. Other countries have issues with handling mental illness as well but aren't experiencing a bunch of mass shootings. However, I couod be missing something, since I don't know much about the details of how the US deals with mental illness... are they much, much worse at dealing with it that other nations?? I don't see why that would be.

Yes, I think we in the US are straight up crazy........




Yup CRAZY About our guns. A few weeks ago I was on my way to work drove my usual route to work and had to detour. It appeared to be a big concert at the Fairgrounds, however as I passed the main lot of the fairgrounds their sign said...GUN SHOW. I remember saying that figures.

Peace

mickeyrat

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

No evidence that the internet and violent video games have anything to do with mass shootings.

Mass killings happened before these things were around.

Not to mention the fact that other countries have internet and violent video games without the same problem.

The problem seems to be internal. I look at internal conditions that distinguish the US from other countries for the root of the epidemic. I see means as one (guns and lots of them). The other variables are harder to determine: but the effects of these variables manifest themselves as feelings of inadequacy, desperation, and anger.

Underlying conditions play a part to in the creation of a mass murderer: not every person afflicted with despair and anger attempt mass murder. Instability cannot be understated.

do they also have what appears to be so little value placed on own life and others lives?

edit to add, what about the seeming insatiable desire for celebrity? All the false fake shit we are sold through multi media avenues as if it was soemthing to aspire to? "reality shows" tabloids etc.?

oftenreading

I was just thinking along the line mentioned above by mickeyrat this morning.

I think there are two intersecting factors that promote this phenomenon. The first is the way the US fetishizes celebrity over actual accomplishment. People are willing to humiliate themselves, to be known as absolute buffoons and trainwrecks, just to be famous. It seems that notoriety is the most important goal in life, and for those who begin to realize in their late teens/early twenties that they really aren't that special and likely won't have any great accomplishments, the only way to do something spectacular is to kill people in as dramatic a way as possible.

The second factor is the way that the US reveres the myth of the "rugged individual". There's little or no sense of working for a collective good. Most other countries still have at least some sense of willingness to sacrifice a bit of personal gain to improve the common lot, but that is mostly absent in the US. You can see this in the laughable tendency to call anyone who advocates for accessible health services a socialist, here defined as "anti-American".