suicide by cop is something they do cuz they too chicken shit to kill themselves. Or some of them probably think that if they kill themself they wont get into heaven (or what have you) which is so dumb it's almost funny.
I guess we should be carefully looking at the fact that these are all men. Don't men have some insight there? What could be done to help the problem of all these males turning to extreme violence as a way to express themselves?
Men are brutal. We are prone to violence and much more dangerous than the fairer, kinder gender.
I am not sure what your point is here. Are you saying there is nothing to be done because men are born to be mass killers?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I seems to me like these school shooters often has been very lonely people. It seems they feel excluded from the community, they haven't received any love and they get angry and frustrated about their situation. Why are they so filled with hate ?
I guess we should be carefully looking at the fact that these are all men. Don't men have some insight there? What could be done to help the problem of all these males turning to extreme violence as a way to express themselves?
Men are brutal. We are prone to violence and much more dangerous than the fairer, kinder gender.
I am not sure what your point is here. Are you saying there is nothing to be done because men are born to be mass killers?
Not really.
I'm supporting the assertion that men are the root of most violence. I'd go further to say that if it is a female who is violent... she has been a victim of a male that, as such, is indirectly responsible as well.
Let's remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Please demonstrate one instance otherwise. I don't recall the last time a gun began firing on its own.
That's more than a little facetious, not one of us is suggesting that the gun itself decides to go out and kill people. What we are saying, however, is that if the person intent on killing was unable to gain possession of a gun, clearly they would not be able to kill anyone with said gun.
Is there a more ruthless state of capitalism than the US?
Is the 'dog eat dog' attitude more prevalent in any other country?
I ask because I wonder if this attitude transcends itself through the fabric of US society and affects some in ways which are immeasurable and unexplainable- largely through feelings of inadequacy.
To serve as background to what I am saying... I backpacked Costa Rica back in 1991 (or 1992). Panama to the south and Nicaragua to the north had experienced civil war in the same era (roughly). Costa Rica had no internal tension. What was the difference? Same geographical regions, people, and languages... but Costa Rica provided public education and health care while the other countries didn't. The people were content with baseline levels of social programming.
Interestingly... Costa Rica police, at the time, never carried guns.
In a nutshell... does the pursuit of the American Dream (fame and fortune) drive some to despair and anger? University and colleges are prime places for people to begin to realize they might not materialize into what they had hoped.
Just thoughts off the top of my head.
Good points and interesting as I do think there must be something in the American psyche to explain why it happens there
Let's remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Please demonstrate one instance otherwise. I don't recall the last time a gun began firing on its own.
Some people, some fucked up people, use guns - and yes, other weapons - to kill people.
Isn't it worth trying to curb some of that? And hold accountable those who choose to pull the trigger? Maybe keep them away from that trigger, whether literally or figuratively?
And damn. I wish I could show an instance where a gun fired on its own. Honestly, I envisioned a little Gunby Gumby version shouting "dance, motherfucker!"
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I seems to me like these school shooters often has been very lonely people. It seems they feel excluded from the community, they haven't received any love and they get angry and frustrated about their situation. Why are they so filled with hate ?
Let's remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Please demonstrate one instance otherwise. I don't recall the last time a gun began firing on its own.
Some people, some fucked up people, use guns - and yes, other weapons - to kill people.
Isn't it worth trying to curb some of that? And hold accountable those who choose to pull the trigger? Maybe keep them away from that trigger, whether literally or figuratively?
And damn. I wish I could show an instance where a gun fired on its own. Honestly, I envisioned a little Gunby Gumby version shouting "dance, motherfucker!"
We do hold them accountable, we try them for murder.
Post edited by dudeman on
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
Teach,you got that right about not growing up now.Shit,IPhones and cameras would have buried my group of friends in the 80s.It was sooo much better not being plugged in.imo. I think J is onto something.That is when things got shitty around early mid 90s.So if the interwebs have added to this then first person violent shooter games have some part to play.I think I read every shoot through SC was a video gamer???
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. The timeline that seems to reveal a spike in mass shootings.
As a curiosity, I began wondering what divorce rates were like during this same time period. My friends whose parents got divorced commonly refer to that event as the worst time of their lives.
Imagine being an already socially awkward kid so you probably don't have many friends. Maybe you are bullied at school. Now, you go home to an empty house at the end of the school day and your one parent has to work, is seldom around, is too tired and overwhelmed to be an attentive, loving parent.
I don't think that you can discount the effect of the breakdown of the family when considering our multiple social and cultural problems in this country.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
True, as they should be. But what about the other part you bolded?
Sorry, I got carried away with the awesome power of bolding. I don't have any issues at all with keeping guns out of the hands of those with mental disorders, criminal records, domestic abusers and drug addicts. There are a lot of people out there who should never have access to weapons of any kind.
As for the figurative aspect, it comes down to this: people have to give a shit about other people.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
True, as they should be. But what about the other part you bolded?
Sorry, I got carried away with the awesome power of bolding. I don't have any issues at all with keeping guns out of the hands of those with mental disorders, criminal records, domestic abusers and drug addicts. There are a lot of people out there who should never have access to weapons of any kind.
As for the figurative aspect, it comes down to this: people have to give a shit about other people.
Have you an opinion on why these people seem to place so little value on other's lives?
I've given this example before, to try and illustrate how different it is for us here in Ireland. Every life lost prematurely in a violent death, be it accidental or intentional, makes the national news and is felt by all of us. We have not yet become desensitised to such losses and I hope we never will. In a country as vast as America, do you think there's a disconnect, such that you just don't feel that bond with your fellow citizens? Murder, while not being taken lightly, is accepted as being commonplace and so frequent as to barely even be commented upon unless you personally knew the victim.
True, as they should be. But what about the other part you bolded?
Sorry, I got carried away with the awesome power of bolding. I don't have any issues at all with keeping guns out of the hands of those with mental disorders, criminal records, domestic abusers and drug addicts. There are a lot of people out there who should never have access to weapons of any kind.
As for the figurative aspect, it comes down to this: people have to give a shit about other people.
We're pretty much on the same page it seems.
Including that bolding/formatting freedom!
JWPearl, not sure I grasped your comment - no pressure, but please clarify if so inclined.
Who do you think will speak for such like ones?? I will never vote for man governments but for God's Kingdom paradise..
What do you mean? I am not religious so you may as well be speaking gibberish. Can you perhaps explain in non biblical talk what you mean and how it pertains to this thread?
True, as they should be. But what about the other part you bolded?
Sorry, I got carried away with the awesome power of bolding. I don't have any issues at all with keeping guns out of the hands of those with mental disorders, criminal records, domestic abusers and drug addicts. There are a lot of people out there who should never have access to weapons of any kind.
As for the figurative aspect, it comes down to this: people have to give a shit about other people.
Have you an opinion on why these people seem to place so little value on other's lives?
I've given this example before, to try and illustrate how different it is for us here in Ireland. Every life lost prematurely in a violent death, be it accidental or intentional, makes the national news and is felt by all of us. We have not yet become desensitised to such losses and I hope we never will. In a country as vast as America, do you think there's a disconnect, such that you just don't feel that bond with your fellow citizens? Murder, while not being taken lightly, is accepted as being commonplace and so frequent as to barely even be commented upon unless you personally knew the victim.
I think some people go so deep into the pit of despair that they say "Fuck it! No one cares about me so I'll do something huge to get noticed ".
I think you're right about people here being desensitized to violence and murder here.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
Very good thread. As a European in the US, I have been asking myself and others the same questions as the OP a lot. To varying degrees of willingness to discuss. Which is understandable. But I just wanted to say thank you, because reading the OP's perspective makes me feel less like I am an idiot who doesn't see the point. and reading the discussion in here helps with that as well. Good job, folks.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Very good thread. As a European in the US, I have been asking myself and others the same questions as the OP a lot. To varying degrees of willingness to discuss. Which is understandable. But I just wanted to say thank you, because reading the OP's perspective makes me feel less like I am an idiot who doesn't see the point. and reading the discussion in here helps with that as well. Good job, folks.
No idiots here, just people trying to understand. Our countries are so very different, all we can do is share our varying perspectives
It is such a heated topic though, and I want to give props to all who contributed in here so far for making this a very interesting and civilised discussion with lots of information
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
One thing that seems to happen in the aftermath of these mass shootings is some vigorous discussion about who and why, then we retreat back to our everyday lives. Then suddenly it happens again. Maybe if we kept the conversation going afterwards, instead of shutting it away, we could have meaningful discussion about preventing these horrible incidents. Maybe we would start to feel more connected to each other.
I think the earlier comparison with suicide bombers is accurate. Isolated, disaffected youth who want to feel part of something big. I'm not sure how we identify those people though. People tend to blame the shooters' families afterwards, which I don't agree with. The shooter makes his choices and sometimes his own family are among the victims. I also think many of them can disguise their behavior, even from the people they live with. When I was a teenager, I knew ways to keep things from my parents. Fortunately, none of those things had deadly consequences.
To me, the greatest need by far is for mental health services. This is one of those things that gets discussed after shootings but nothing ever seems to materialize. I could say tons about sensible gun control and keeping guns out of the hands of the people who commit these crimes but again, how do we figure out who they are?
I think the internet and social media have definitely been a factor. People have so much more (bad, inaccurate) information at hand that formerly would have been unavailable. They can connect with other disturbed and hateful people. They can hide their identities and be whoever they want to be online, spewing out all kinds of hate.
This is definitely a good discussion and thanks to the OP for getting it started.
Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck). We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida. My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school). I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.
Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck). We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida. My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school). I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.
i totally agree with the scrupals of this post about violence even though it has nothing to do with what i was wondering..
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
i dont want to be like these people corrupted which is why i dont watch these things called violence and i fully appreciated your post..
Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck). We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida. My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school). I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.
Great post bud! And I love what the sheriff is doing!!! Fuck giving these assholes any sort of time in the lime light.
Dudeman I'm a latch key kid who graduated HS in 86.A lot of my friends also had single parents who worked multiple jobs while we were to kinda look out for ourselves and our siblings(Jordan,your welcome you little fuck). We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida. My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school). I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.
You guys had each other to turn to and you're also 10 to 15 years older than those in the age group I am referring to. Imagine that you were an only child that was bullied at school, had no friends or anyone who gave a shit about you. That can mess up a young person. I'm not saying that divorce is the only factor behind these shooters, but if you look at their childhoods, I'm pretty certain that many of them share similar childhood experiences.
I completely agree with the things you mention in your second and third paragraphs.
If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
So if we all agree on the why,or at least the basics of it.Then how do we get to the point where intervention can prevent further tragedy? I think that is the big enigma
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I'm supporting the assertion that men are the root of most violence. I'd go further to say that if it is a female who is violent... she has been a victim of a male that, as such, is indirectly responsible as well.
Please demonstrate one instance otherwise. I don't recall the last time a gun began firing on its own.
Isn't it worth trying to curb some of that? And hold accountable those who choose to pull the trigger? Maybe keep them away from that trigger, whether literally or figuratively?
And damn. I wish I could show an instance where a gun fired on its own. Honestly, I envisioned a little
GunbyGumby version shouting "dance, motherfucker!"Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Gun owners kill people
As a curiosity, I began wondering what divorce rates were like during this same time period. My friends whose parents got divorced commonly refer to that event as the worst time of their lives.
Imagine being an already socially awkward kid so you probably don't have many friends. Maybe you are bullied at school. Now, you go home to an empty house at the end of the school day and your one parent has to work, is seldom around, is too tired and overwhelmed to be an attentive, loving parent.
I don't think that you can discount the effect of the breakdown of the family when considering our multiple social and cultural problems in this country.
I will never vote for man governments but for God's
Kingdom paradise..
As for the figurative aspect, it comes down to this: people have to give a shit about other people.
I've given this example before, to try and illustrate how different it is for us here in Ireland. Every life lost prematurely in a violent death, be it accidental or intentional, makes the national news and is felt by all of us. We have not yet become desensitised to such losses and I hope we never will. In a country as vast as America, do you think there's a disconnect, such that you just don't feel that bond with your fellow citizens? Murder, while not being taken lightly, is accepted as being commonplace and so frequent as to barely even be commented upon unless you personally knew the victim.
Including that bolding/formatting freedom!
JWPearl, not sure I grasped your comment - no pressure, but please clarify if so inclined.
I am not religious so you may as well be speaking gibberish.
Can you perhaps explain in non biblical talk what you mean and how it pertains to this thread?
I think you're right about people here being desensitized to violence and murder here.
I think the earlier comparison with suicide bombers is accurate. Isolated, disaffected youth who want to feel part of something big. I'm not sure how we identify those people though. People tend to blame the shooters' families afterwards, which I don't agree with. The shooter makes his choices and sometimes his own family are among the victims. I also think many of them can disguise their behavior, even from the people they live with. When I was a teenager, I knew ways to keep things from my parents. Fortunately, none of those things had deadly consequences.
To me, the greatest need by far is for mental health services. This is one of those things that gets discussed after shootings but nothing ever seems to materialize. I could say tons about sensible gun control and keeping guns out of the hands of the people who commit these crimes but again, how do we figure out who they are?
I think the internet and social media have definitely been a factor. People have so much more (bad, inaccurate) information at hand that formerly would have been unavailable. They can connect with other disturbed and hateful people. They can hide their identities and be whoever they want to be online, spewing out all kinds of hate.
This is definitely a good discussion and thanks to the OP for getting it started.
We were independent and had a blast.Lots of Van Halen,pot,TV and Atari.Good times.I split time between my Dads house outside Durango/Farmington area and moms South Florida.
My point is that we had excessively high divorce rates when I was coming up,but we didn't have the shootings.So the shit hit the fan after mid 80s.
I think it is directly tied to the Internet and first person ,very violent video games which give these sick individuals a sense of control and power.2 things they don't have in the real world. Also Massive News coverage,the "Bullying" thing which turns into the "loner"thing and a general softening of proper parenting,discipline by parents and teachers(I rember getting paddled at school).
I see the sheriff in Oregon is refusing to say the shooters name.He is giving him no quarter at all.News clip from CNN is stating this concept is gaining ground and there is a ground swell of support for not sensationalizing the shooter.No name,no pub basically a fuck you.I love this approach.Its a great start.
about violence
even though it has nothing to do with
what i was wondering..
i dont want to be like these people corrupted which is why i dont watch these things called violence and i fully appreciated your post..
I completely agree with the things you mention in your second and third paragraphs.