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The right to bear arms

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
    over eye contact? what in the actual fuck?


      Two men are charged with murder for a gunfight on the fringe of a Super Bowl victory rally in Kansas City, Missouri, that killed one person and wounded more than 20 others, including the suspects, in a quarrel over eye contact, prosecutors said on Tuesday.

    Their arrests - one charged on Tuesday, the other on Feb. 17 - brought to four the number of suspects facing prosecution in the Valentine's Day shooting. Two teenagers were taken into custody last week and charged as juveniles in family court with firearms offenses and resisting arrest.

    continues...

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,576
    mickeyrat said:
    over eye contact? what in the actual fuck?


      Two men are charged with murder for a gunfight on the fringe of a Super Bowl victory rally in Kansas City, Missouri, that killed one person and wounded more than 20 others, including the suspects, in a quarrel over eye contact, prosecutors said on Tuesday.

    Their arrests - one charged on Tuesday, the other on Feb. 17 - brought to four the number of suspects facing prosecution in the Valentine's Day shooting. Two teenagers were taken into custody last week and charged as juveniles in family court with firearms offenses and resisting arrest.

    continues...

    Hey but they passed a law banning "celebratory gunfire." You know, "responsible" things like that?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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    nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 7,711
    “Stupid, man. Just pulled a gun out and started shooting. I shouldn’t have done that. Just being stupid,”
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    much like seatbelt laws, helmet laws, etc, the gov't has to step in and protect us from ourselves....yet the gun lobby continues to avoid that
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,475
    much like seatbelt laws, helmet laws, etc, the gov't has to step in and protect us from ourselves....yet the gun lobby continues to avoid that
    Good luck with that: 

    Why Some Members of Congress Are Wearing AR-15 Pins  TIME
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    My mantra is that they will eventually have to convert...we haven't seen the worst mass killing yet
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,475
    My mantra is that they will eventually have to convert...we haven't seen the worst mass killing yet
    I would like to believe that, but if Sandy Hook, or Uvalde, or Vegas didn’t make them say “enough already”, I genuinely don’t think anything will. 
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    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,975
    mickeyrat said:
    over eye contact? what in the actual fuck?


      Two men are charged with murder for a gunfight on the fringe of a Super Bowl victory rally in Kansas City, Missouri, that killed one person and wounded more than 20 others, including the suspects, in a quarrel over eye contact, prosecutors said on Tuesday.

    Their arrests - one charged on Tuesday, the other on Feb. 17 - brought to four the number of suspects facing prosecution in the Valentine's Day shooting. Two teenagers were taken into custody last week and charged as juveniles in family court with firearms offenses and resisting arrest.

    continues...

    Youve never lived in a hood or urban I take it?  Eyeballing is a big deal.  To appear soft from said eyeballing is even worse...
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    josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 28,283
    Yet you can still buy a gun on the internet or gun show with no background check 😂😂 this nation is screwed there’s 0 chance we will ever have sensible gun reform to save lives 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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    MD7886MD7886 Dillsburg PA Posts: 33
    edited February 22
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    yes...you can imagine a wild wild west situation...we all just walk around with our guns out because we don't know who's good and who's bad.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,975
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    yes...you can imagine a wild wild west situation...we all just walk around with our guns out because we don't know who's good and who's bad.
    Just look for the men in White.
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    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,975
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly? This is what anti gun nuts want.

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?
    There have been occasions that the "good guy" was shot trying to help.  Carrying a firearm isn't always the best thing to do.

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever. There are laws written for this.  "feeling threatened" applies in certain situations but if you are proven negligent then you will be arraigned.  You need to understand the laws if you want them to be in your favor when using your firearm in a situation.
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,993
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    I agree with part of this. I wouldn't get involved with a mass shooter even if I were armed for the reasons you described.
    Unless someone was putting my life or my kid's lives at risk, then yes, that 100% gives me the right to defend my children. I don't carry, but if I did, and I felt my children were threatened by someone with a lethal weapon, I wouldn't hesitate and I would be completely in the right. 

    It is not as common, but there are plenty of good guy with a gun examples out there and it has happened. Not usually a mass shooting, but you hear about a fast food place being held up then someone with a gun stops it. The only potential mass shooting scenario I can remember was a church in Texas a couple years ago. Someone opened fire in a church and someone in the church took him out almost immediately. 

    I'm not saying people should be armed and ready to stop the next shooter, just responding to your comment bout never having the right to use your gun. You do.
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    mace1229 said:
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    I agree with part of this. I wouldn't get involved with a mass shooter even if I were armed for the reasons you described.
    Unless someone was putting my life or my kid's lives at risk, then yes, that 100% gives me the right to defend my children. I don't carry, but if I did, and I felt my children were threatened by someone with a lethal weapon, I wouldn't hesitate and I would be completely in the right. 

    It is not as common, but there are plenty of good guy with a gun examples out there and it has happened. Not usually a mass shooting, but you hear about a fast food place being held up then someone with a gun stops it. The only potential mass shooting scenario I can remember was a church in Texas a couple years ago. Someone opened fire in a church and someone in the church took him out almost immediately. 

    I'm not saying people should be armed and ready to stop the next shooter, just responding to your comment bout never having the right to use your gun. You do.
    Just because it happens every so often doesn't make it right. People without guns have stopped people with guns. We still have an insane gun problem.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,822
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    Criminally, anyway, the burden of proof not on the user. So it has to be cut-and-dry that they should not have have used their gun. And this is from governments increasingly disinterested in actually stopping such things, at least to certain kinds of victims.

    In other words, you pretty much have the right to use your gun...or at least the risk is fairly minimal.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
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    MD7886MD7886 Dillsburg PA Posts: 33
    edited February 23
    These are all good points.    I guess I could take it a step further and say, in the heat of the moment you're not going to be able to go through all the possible scenarios that makes your use of a gun legally sound.   Sure, if someone comes after you and your kids and all other aspects are obvious - but how often would that be the case.

    How often is brandishing a gun considered a threat to someone else.   Does brandishing a gun mean that the person intends on using it, I would assume most laws would protect the second, or replying-in-kind "brandisher"?    I could see a situation where the first person pulls out a gun to "warn" someone, that they do have a gun, never intending on actually using it.   Then the escalation of BOTH parties showing their seeming intent causes the actual use.

    The issue is, the second person can't know that, and they have to proceed based on the intention.

    I know there's been anecdotal cases of good guy / bad guy scenarios, but it doesn't happen very often.   But you all made good points.
    Post edited by MD7886 on
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    mace1229mace1229 Posts: 8,993
    mace1229 said:
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    I agree with part of this. I wouldn't get involved with a mass shooter even if I were armed for the reasons you described.
    Unless someone was putting my life or my kid's lives at risk, then yes, that 100% gives me the right to defend my children. I don't carry, but if I did, and I felt my children were threatened by someone with a lethal weapon, I wouldn't hesitate and I would be completely in the right. 

    It is not as common, but there are plenty of good guy with a gun examples out there and it has happened. Not usually a mass shooting, but you hear about a fast food place being held up then someone with a gun stops it. The only potential mass shooting scenario I can remember was a church in Texas a couple years ago. Someone opened fire in a church and someone in the church took him out almost immediately. 

    I'm not saying people should be armed and ready to stop the next shooter, just responding to your comment bout never having the right to use your gun. You do.
    Just because it happens every so often doesn't make it right. People without guns have stopped people with guns. We still have an insane gun problem.
    I don't disagree. Was just responding to the point that it never happens and using a gun is never justified. I disagree with that.
  • Options
    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    OnWis97 said:
    MD7886 said:
    Do you actually have any rights to use the gun, even when you own a gun legally?   I mean, what situation will be so cut-and-dry that you using your gun to harm, or kill, another person isn't going to be scrutinized criminally, and then civilly?

    Worse yet - the old...."nothing can stop a bad guy with a gun but a good guy with a gun".....well, that sounds good but it NEVER plays out that way.   So a mass shooter starts shooting up a crowd, you pull your legally obtained gun out and return fire.   The cops show up in a heated rush and see YOU shooting and, HOPEFULLY the bad guy shooting as well.   How are the cops going to know who's in the right?

    How do you know YOU'RE in the right, in that moment.  Why did the OTHER guy pull his gun, was HE responding to another threat?  It just goes on and on.   You don't really have the right to use your gun, ever.
    Criminally, anyway, the burden of proof not on the user. So it has to be cut-and-dry that they should not have have used their gun. And this is from governments increasingly disinterested in actually stopping such things, at least to certain kinds of victims.

    In other words, you pretty much have the right to use your gun...or at least the risk is fairly minimal.
    Trayvon Martin proved that
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • Options
    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,949
    MD7886 said:
    These are all good points.    I guess I could take it a step further and say, in the heat of the moment you're not going to be able to go through all the possible scenarios that makes your use of a gun legally sound.   Sure, if someone comes after you and your kids and all other aspects are obvious - but how often would that be the case.

    How often is brandishing a gun considered a threat to someone else.   Does brandishing a gun mean that the person intends on using it, I would assume most laws would protect the second, or replying-in-kind "brandisher"?    I could see a situation where the first person pulls out a gun to "warn" someone, that they do have a gun, never intending on actually using it.   Then the escalation of BOTH parties showing their seeming intent causes the actual use.

    The issue is, the second person can't know that, and they have to proceed based on the intention.

    I know there's been anecdotal cases of good guy / bad guy scenarios, but it doesn't happen very often.   But you all made good points.
    You're right there. Simply showing someone a gun could escalate things when your intention was to de-escalate.

    And then you have the possibility of a good guy with a gun protecting his family from (for example) a mall shooter...is he at fault if he only protects his family and does not attempt to take down the gunner? All of these circumstances lead us to the conclusion that guns should be next to impossible to obtain.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,475

    This good guy with a gun was robbed of $20, a check and his car keys at an ATM, and then shot at a truck he mistakenly thought the robber climbed into and killed a 9 year old girl who was going out for pizza with her parents. 

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-texas-gun-politics-houston-6a3d5489d49e8702ea94783b6aff95b2

    Good stuff. 
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    HobbesHobbes Pacific Northwest Posts: 6,383
    If someone uses a gun to harm or kill another person, then I sure hope to hell they are scrutinized.
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,822

    This good guy with a gun was robbed of $20, a check and his car keys at an ATM, and then shot at a truck he mistakenly thought the robber climbed into and killed a 9 year old girl who was going out for pizza with her parents. 

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-texas-gun-politics-houston-6a3d5489d49e8702ea94783b6aff95b2

    Good stuff. 
    Unavoidable!

    I swear that the whole "good guy with a gun" (GGWAG) trope is rooted in people watching too many action movies where cops shoot tires out of cars going 60 MPH, missed shots go harmlessly into the void, and regular heroes hit the bad guys. So now they think an armed teacher is going to dive out of their classroom into the hallway and get off two shots; one to the gunman's chest and one between his eyes, while 15 children in between them are unharmed. Or a GGWAG is going to take out two armed assailants on a subway train (as opposed to either fumbling his gun while the pee runs down his leg or accidently shooting bystandars). I hope if I'm ever held up at a gas station there's not a GGWAG around to miss the assailant and kill us all by hitting the gas pump...
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
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    Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 10,475
    OnWis97 said:

    This good guy with a gun was robbed of $20, a check and his car keys at an ATM, and then shot at a truck he mistakenly thought the robber climbed into and killed a 9 year old girl who was going out for pizza with her parents. 

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-texas-gun-politics-houston-6a3d5489d49e8702ea94783b6aff95b2

    Good stuff. 
    Unavoidable!

    I swear that the whole "good guy with a gun" (GGWAG) trope is rooted in people watching too many action movies where cops shoot tires out of cars going 60 MPH, missed shots go harmlessly into the void, and regular heroes hit the bad guys. So now they think an armed teacher is going to dive out of their classroom into the hallway and get off two shots; one to the gunman's chest and one between his eyes, while 15 children in between them are unharmed. Or a GGWAG is going to take out two armed assailants on a subway train (as opposed to either fumbling his gun while the pee runs down his leg or accidently shooting bystandars). I hope if I'm ever held up at a gas station there's not a GGWAG around to miss the assailant and kill us all by hitting the gas pump...
    It's funny, because people in homes with guns are more likely to die by gunfire than people in homes without guns... guns make people less safe, but as they say... no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. .
  • Options
    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,975

    This good guy with a gun was robbed of $20, a check and his car keys at an ATM, and then shot at a truck he mistakenly thought the robber climbed into and killed a 9 year old girl who was going out for pizza with her parents. 

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-texas-gun-politics-houston-6a3d5489d49e8702ea94783b6aff95b2

    Good stuff. 
    This is not a reason to shoot into a car...  There was no threat, there was no weapon...  Dumbass opens fire on a car that he didn't see the people inside?  That's like going hunting and shooting blindly into the woods...
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,822
    OnWis97 said:

    This good guy with a gun was robbed of $20, a check and his car keys at an ATM, and then shot at a truck he mistakenly thought the robber climbed into and killed a 9 year old girl who was going out for pizza with her parents. 

    https://apnews.com/article/shootings-texas-gun-politics-houston-6a3d5489d49e8702ea94783b6aff95b2

    Good stuff. 
    Unavoidable!

    I swear that the whole "good guy with a gun" (GGWAG) trope is rooted in people watching too many action movies where cops shoot tires out of cars going 60 MPH, missed shots go harmlessly into the void, and regular heroes hit the bad guys. So now they think an armed teacher is going to dive out of their classroom into the hallway and get off two shots; one to the gunman's chest and one between his eyes, while 15 children in between them are unharmed. Or a GGWAG is going to take out two armed assailants on a subway train (as opposed to either fumbling his gun while the pee runs down his leg or accidently shooting bystandars). I hope if I'm ever held up at a gas station there's not a GGWAG around to miss the assailant and kill us all by hitting the gas pump...
    It's funny, because people in homes with guns are more likely to die by gunfire than people in homes without guns... guns make people less safe, but as they say... no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. .
    It seems like this is related to a term I just learned; "Illusory Superiority." 

    I found it trying to confirm something I was once told, which is that the vast majority of people think they're above-average drivers. They can't all be right. I am thinking that part of the reason this statistic doesn't move people is because most people assume "I'm not dumb enough to let that happen." 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#:~:text=One commercial survey showed that,, and 18% below average.

    Svenson (1981) surveyed 161 students in Sweden and the United States, asking them to compare their driving skills and safety to other people's. For driving skills, 93% of the U.S. sample and 69% of the Swedish sample put themselves in the top 50%; for safety, 88% of the U.S. and 77% of the Swedish put themselves in the top 50%.[29]
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
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  • Options
    MD7886MD7886 Dillsburg PA Posts: 33
    edited February 23
    More excellent points.   Hobbes - I agree no matter WHAT the situation, it has to be scrutinized.   Gun ownership should carry a large burden that is reconciled when the gun is used and someone is injured or killed.  Hell, even if property is damaged.

    Merkin - read the entire article - such a sad story for sure.   Something stood out to me....

    Texas law “gives very, very broad self-defense rights for people carrying guns, even if the person makes a mistake,” said Sandra Guerra Thompson, a law professor at the University of Houston Law Center.

    This is insanity to me.  There should ALWAYS be the threat to a gun owner that a mistake with a deadly weapon would have consequences.   I'm not surprised by the leeway in the law in a state like Texas, but I see this becoming more and more of a talking point the more mass shootings there are.  Sadly, it hasn't happened yet, in TX, that is but states have been re-thinking their laws around gun ownership.

    Gern - I also believe that owning a gun should be almost impossible for an average citizen.   Not rifles, per se - I realize that hunting is reason to own a rifle.   A rifle is very hard to conceal, thankfully.    No one should own a handgun - except for the police and military.  Full stop. 
    Post edited by MD7886 on
  • Options
    MD7886MD7886 Dillsburg PA Posts: 33
    OnWis......your scenario with the teacher is EXACTLY what I think about all the time.  Even with extensive training, you're still subject to so many impossible variables that make trying to return fire, almost more dangerous than just trying to evade the original shooting.

    Our sons are out of school now, and I'm glad, because this is something that is NOT going away anytime soon.   At least those parents in Michigan (I think) were held responsible for their son's actions at school.  More of that liability shift can only help move the needle.
  • Options
    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,687
    https://apnews.com/article/machine-guns-modified-illegal-switches-gun-violence-ddc2e9b6602ee1eb62e75732bbd54784   A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US

     
    A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US
    By LINDSAY WHITEHURST
    Today

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Eleven-year-old Domonic Davis was not far from his mom's Cincinnati home when a hail of gunfire sprayed out from a passing car. Nearly two dozen rounds hurtled through the night at a group of children in the blink of an eye.

    Four other children and a woman were hurt in the November shooting that killed Domonic, who had just made his school basketball team.

    “What happened? How does this happen to an 11-year-old? He was only a few doors down,” his father, Issac Davis, said.

    The shooting remains under investigation. But federal investigators believe the 22 shots could be fired off with lightning speed because the weapon had been illegally converted to fire like a machine gun.

    Communities around the U.S. have seen shootings carried out with weapons converted to fully automatic in recent years, fueled by a staggering increase in small pieces of metal or plastic made with a 3D printer or ordered online. Laws against machine guns date back to the bloody violence of Prohibition-era gangsters. But the proliferation of devices known by nicknames such as Glock switches, auto sears and chips has allowed people to transform legal semi-automatic weapons into even more dangerous guns, helping fuel gun violence, police and federal authorities said.

    “Police officers are facing down fully automatic weapon fire in amounts that haven’t existed in this country since the days of Al Capone and the Tommy gun,” said Steve Dettelbach, director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF. "It’s a huge problem.”

    The agency reported a 570% increase in the number of conversion devices collected by police departments between 2017 and 2021, the most recent data available.

    Guns with conversion devices have been used in several mass shootings, including one that left four dead at a Sweet Sixteen party in Alabama last year and another that left six people dead at a bar district in Sacramento, California, in 2022. In Houston, police officer William Jeffrey died in 2021 after being shot with a converted gun while serving a warrant. In cities such as Indianapolis, police have seized them every week.

    The devices that can convert legal semi-automatic weapons can be made on a 3D printer in about 35 minutes or ordered from overseas online for less than $30. They’re also quick to install.

    Once in place, they modify the gun's machinery. Instead of firing one round each time the shooter squeezes the trigger, a semi-automatic weapon with a conversion device starts firing as soon as the trigger goes down and doesn’t stop until the shooter lets go or the weapon runs out of ammunition.

    “You're seeing them a lot in stunning numbers, particularly in street violence,” said David Pucino, deputy chief counsel at Giffords Law Center.

    In a demonstration by ATF agents, the firing of a semi-automatic outfitted with a conversion device was nearly indistinguishable from an automatic weapon. Conversion devices with differing designs can fit a range of different guns, enabling guns to fire at a rate of 800 or more bullets per minute, according to the ATF.

    “It takes two or three seconds to put in some of these devices into a firearm to make that firearm into a machine gun instantly,” Dettelbach said.

    Between 2012 and 2016, police departments in the U.S. found 814 conversion devices and sent them to the ATF. That number grew to more than 5,400 between 2017 and 2021, according to the agency's most recent data.

    They took hold in Minneapolis in 2021, and helped fuel record-breaking gun violence that year, said police Chief Brian O'Hara. Along with spraying out bullets at a dizzying speed, switches make a gun much more difficult for the shooter to control, so more people can be hit by accident.

    “The thing is shaking as it’s firing, so we wind up getting multiple victims, people hit in extremities during the same shooting incident, because the person cannot control the weapon," O'Hara said.

    The city has seen a decline in their use since the September 2022 arrest of a man charged with selling switches that he had ordered from Russia and Taiwan or made himself, O'Hara said. But “it's still a very, very real problem,” he said. “This is having a really deep impact on families, on neighborhoods and communities.”

    While the devices are considered illegal machine guns under federal law, many states don't have their own specific laws against them. In Indiana, police were finding them so often — multiple times a week in the state's capital — that the state changed the law to ensure it included switches.

    “We have to update the laws regarding machine guns to deal with the problems of today," Indianapolis police Chief Chris Bailey said.

    Only 15 states have their own laws against the possession, sale or manufacture of automatic-fire weapons, according to Giffords. Indiana was one of many states that have regulations with exceptions. Five states have no state-level machine-gun regulations at all.

    But long before any prosecution, police have to find the conversion devices. Often about the size of a quarter, they can easily go unnoticed by the untrained eye after being installed, said Dettelbach.

    He recalled visiting a Texas police department after the ATF hosted a training on conversion devices. Afterwards, the chief searched the weapons in the evidence room and found several with previously undetected conversion devices.

    “These items don’t always look as dangerous as they are," he said. “If you see some of them, they're pieces of plastic and metal, and sometimes it’s even hard to recognize them when they’re actually on or in the firearm because they blend in.”

    They're also increasingly a fixture online, in social media and rap lyrics, Davis said. “Everyone is talking about switches,” he said. “It’s a scary trend.”

    Davis struggles to talk about the loss of his son. Domonic would often come with his dad on Fridays to get a haircut at the barber shop where Issac Davis works. The shooting also fell on a Friday, making the end of the week an especially tough time.

    Davis hopes to start a foundation called For Every Eleven to fight gun violence and honor his son's memory.

    “I still want to keep his name going," he said. "He deserved to be still relevant. So I have to keep going. No matter how much grief I grieve him in private.”


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Options
    tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,975
    mickeyrat said:
    https://apnews.com/article/machine-guns-modified-illegal-switches-gun-violence-ddc2e9b6602ee1eb62e75732bbd54784   A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US

     
    A surge of illegal homemade machine guns has helped fuel gun violence in the US
    By LINDSAY WHITEHURST
    Today

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Eleven-year-old Domonic Davis was not far from his mom's Cincinnati home when a hail of gunfire sprayed out from a passing car. Nearly two dozen rounds hurtled through the night at a group of children in the blink of an eye.

    Four other children and a woman were hurt in the November shooting that killed Domonic, who had just made his school basketball team.

    “What happened? How does this happen to an 11-year-old? He was only a few doors down,” his father, Issac Davis, said.

    The shooting remains under investigation. But federal investigators believe the 22 shots could be fired off with lightning speed because the weapon had been illegally converted to fire like a machine gun.

    Communities around the U.S. have seen shootings carried out with weapons converted to fully automatic in recent years, fueled by a staggering increase in small pieces of metal or plastic made with a 3D printer or ordered online. Laws against machine guns date back to the bloody violence of Prohibition-era gangsters. But the proliferation of devices known by nicknames such as Glock switches, auto sears and chips has allowed people to transform legal semi-automatic weapons into even more dangerous guns, helping fuel gun violence, police and federal authorities said.

    “Police officers are facing down fully automatic weapon fire in amounts that haven’t existed in this country since the days of Al Capone and the Tommy gun,” said Steve Dettelbach, director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF. "It’s a huge problem.”

    The agency reported a 570% increase in the number of conversion devices collected by police departments between 2017 and 2021, the most recent data available.

    Guns with conversion devices have been used in several mass shootings, including one that left four dead at a Sweet Sixteen party in Alabama last year and another that left six people dead at a bar district in Sacramento, California, in 2022. In Houston, police officer William Jeffrey died in 2021 after being shot with a converted gun while serving a warrant. In cities such as Indianapolis, police have seized them every week.

    The devices that can convert legal semi-automatic weapons can be made on a 3D printer in about 35 minutes or ordered from overseas online for less than $30. They’re also quick to install.

    Once in place, they modify the gun's machinery. Instead of firing one round each time the shooter squeezes the trigger, a semi-automatic weapon with a conversion device starts firing as soon as the trigger goes down and doesn’t stop until the shooter lets go or the weapon runs out of ammunition.

    “You're seeing them a lot in stunning numbers, particularly in street violence,” said David Pucino, deputy chief counsel at Giffords Law Center.

    In a demonstration by ATF agents, the firing of a semi-automatic outfitted with a conversion device was nearly indistinguishable from an automatic weapon. Conversion devices with differing designs can fit a range of different guns, enabling guns to fire at a rate of 800 or more bullets per minute, according to the ATF.

    “It takes two or three seconds to put in some of these devices into a firearm to make that firearm into a machine gun instantly,” Dettelbach said.

    Between 2012 and 2016, police departments in the U.S. found 814 conversion devices and sent them to the ATF. That number grew to more than 5,400 between 2017 and 2021, according to the agency's most recent data.

    They took hold in Minneapolis in 2021, and helped fuel record-breaking gun violence that year, said police Chief Brian O'Hara. Along with spraying out bullets at a dizzying speed, switches make a gun much more difficult for the shooter to control, so more people can be hit by accident.

    “The thing is shaking as it’s firing, so we wind up getting multiple victims, people hit in extremities during the same shooting incident, because the person cannot control the weapon," O'Hara said.

    The city has seen a decline in their use since the September 2022 arrest of a man charged with selling switches that he had ordered from Russia and Taiwan or made himself, O'Hara said. But “it's still a very, very real problem,” he said. “This is having a really deep impact on families, on neighborhoods and communities.”

    While the devices are considered illegal machine guns under federal law, many states don't have their own specific laws against them. In Indiana, police were finding them so often — multiple times a week in the state's capital — that the state changed the law to ensure it included switches.

    “We have to update the laws regarding machine guns to deal with the problems of today," Indianapolis police Chief Chris Bailey said.

    Only 15 states have their own laws against the possession, sale or manufacture of automatic-fire weapons, according to Giffords. Indiana was one of many states that have regulations with exceptions. Five states have no state-level machine-gun regulations at all.

    But long before any prosecution, police have to find the conversion devices. Often about the size of a quarter, they can easily go unnoticed by the untrained eye after being installed, said Dettelbach.

    He recalled visiting a Texas police department after the ATF hosted a training on conversion devices. Afterwards, the chief searched the weapons in the evidence room and found several with previously undetected conversion devices.

    “These items don’t always look as dangerous as they are," he said. “If you see some of them, they're pieces of plastic and metal, and sometimes it’s even hard to recognize them when they’re actually on or in the firearm because they blend in.”

    They're also increasingly a fixture online, in social media and rap lyrics, Davis said. “Everyone is talking about switches,” he said. “It’s a scary trend.”

    Davis struggles to talk about the loss of his son. Domonic would often come with his dad on Fridays to get a haircut at the barber shop where Issac Davis works. The shooting also fell on a Friday, making the end of the week an especially tough time.

    Davis hopes to start a foundation called For Every Eleven to fight gun violence and honor his son's memory.

    “I still want to keep his name going," he said. "He deserved to be still relevant. So I have to keep going. No matter how much grief I grieve him in private.”


    You need a class 3 stamp to own a machine gun.  That is federal.

    Some states won't let you own one at all like California or New York.  That is at the state level.

    What this shows us again is that a criminal doesn't care for the laws at all so why not convert their semi auto to full?  It's an illegal gun to begin with so one more felony won't hurt.
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