Knowing what you know now would you still support the withdrawal of troops from Iraq
Comments
-
It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee0 -
Haha! Yes we do, Callen!callen said:Brian Briam Brian
We like rallying against the other team. Feels good, therapeutic.
Git them Evildoers taking away my freedom.
Watching old episodes of Family Guy that makes fun of our hidden agenda of securing oil. Actually it's sad.
We in the west do like to spread our influence, that's for sure. But if we stop and think about it, that could be a good thing. There is much about western culture that is attractive. If we went to Iraq with guitars instead of bombs we might encourage more groups like Acrassicauda (the underground heavy metal band from Baghdad) and fewer groups like ISIS. And while were at it, maybe we could trade some guitars for a few Ouds. That middle east instrument worked very very well on some of Sandy Bull recordings*.
Indeed, Aafke!Aafke said:It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
* Here's a great example of that shared culture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P2PC4uaRXQ
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.0 -
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...rr165892 said:
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lolAafke said:It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
And Cal,not to divert but speaking of family guy,I watched a million ways to die in the west the other night,Mcfarlands last movie.Very funny stuff.0
-
We should stay until everyone can get along and until there's a McDonalds and KFC in every corner.0
-
Nothing will happen overnight but I do believe if we got out of there that activity would diminish greatly, rr. The rise of ISIS and terrorist activity out of the middle east was a direct development of our involvement in the middle east starting with our dependency on oil. The longer we meddle, the worse it will get. Why is that so hard to understand?rr165892 said:Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
I have the same view on this subject as you have, Brain!brianlux said:
Nothing will happen overnight but I do believe if we got out of there that activity would diminish greatly, rr. The rise of ISIS and terrorist activity out of the middle east was a direct development of our involvement in the middle east starting with our dependency on oil. The longer we meddle, the worse it will get. Why is that so hard to understand?rr165892 said:Where in what I said do you kids get I'm pro bombing anybody?
Do you really think that if we pulled all military out of Northern Africa and the Middle East all terrorist activity would come to a halt? I don't.I think it sounds good and wraps it up nice and tight,but it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.
I don't know if we can still get back to the 'good' old days, but I'm convinced that if we keep on pushing we are damaging to the region more than if we stop pushing.benjs said:
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee0 -
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.benjs said:
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I didn't know it was a MacFarlane movie when I rented it, holy shit I was pleasantly surprised!rr165892 said:And Cal,not to divert but speaking of family guy,I watched a million ways to die in the west the other night,Mcfarlands last movie.Very funny stuff.
Very funny movie!
And Charlise...what a purely gorgeous woman!Monkey Driven, Call this Living?0 -
A lot of add lib between her and Seth.Sarah Silverman was funny as shit also.rgambs said:
I didn't know it was a MacFarlane movie when I rented it, holy shit I was pleasantly surprised!rr165892 said:And Cal,not to divert but speaking of family guy,I watched a million ways to die in the west the other night,Mcfarlands last movie.Very funny stuff.
Very funny movie!
And Charlise...what a purely gorgeous woman!0 -
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.brianlux said:
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.benjs said:
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every.
Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.0 -
Please turn up your hearing aid and put your teeth in when talking to me old timer.:)))brianlux said:
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...rr165892 said:
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lolAafke said:It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
0 -
As of this point in my life I am happy to report that all my parts are real other than two patches of plastic used in two inguinal hernia repairs. And that, now that I think of it, probably means that I am part middle eastern. Whoa! But don't worry, I am NOT a terrorist!rr165892 said:
Please turn up your hearing aid and put your teeth in when talking to me old timer.:)))brianlux said:
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...rr165892 said:
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lolAafke said:It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Sorry buddy but the unrest and turmoil is most def placed at our feet. You can't be serious Ryan with that statement? It's now in plain site. Everyone is admitting it. With all the ways you can get info now days, I can't understand how anyone can't see it.rr165892 said:
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.brianlux said:
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.benjs said:
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every.
Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.0 -
Nart,It's not a one way street,that's all I'm saying.Blame Must be spread around.To deny that is foolish.0
-
That's certainly my take on things there, bb. And besides, this focus of this thread is Iraq and the conflict there started in 2003 when the US invaded Iraq. We started it, we need to get out.badbrains said:
Sorry buddy but the unrest and turmoil is most def placed at our feet. You can't be serious Ryan with that statement? It's now in plain site. Everyone is admitting it. With all the ways you can get info now days, I can't understand how anyone can't see it.rr165892 said:
Ok,so we helped break it and now it's a cluster fuck.All reasonable points.brianlux said:
No place returns to where it was before, so we can let that go. But what makes the answer to that question any of our business? Why should we think we need to be the driving influence on what happens there? And if it's fair to assume we can be, what if the reverse were true? Would you agree to that? I very much doubt it.benjs said:
Most substances can be pushed to a certain point, and will have a tendency to return to the way they were before (they are elastic within this region). When materials are pushed beyond this point, they are within the plastic region, and while they might have some tendency to return to the way they were before, they might be irreparably changed.brianlux said:Saw the 60 Minutes episode called "Recruiting For ISIS" last night. The obvious point to me was that ISIS exists because we have meddled in others affairs and have prompted or at least accelerated the extremism. Further meddling will equal greater extremism. Why is this hard to see? And because ISIS members are spreading out world wide, do those who want to bomb them out of existence support the notion of bombing every major city in the world like London* in order to make sure we get every last damn one of them? Or is there maybe a better, more wise solution to the problem... like stop meddling!
No, we need to get out of there and get out now once and for good.
*The episode on 60 Min. also pointed out that the vast majority of Muslims in London were against the extremism and the ISIS recruiting. If we stop being so hateful toward people with faiths that differ from our own (including those who are atheists) who are doing no harm, the extremism is much more likely to diminish.
I see humans as the same, and while I feel that our intervention has by-and-large been a negative presence, I do think we have to consider what irreparable damages we've done. How have we changed the scenario? What complexities have we introduced? If things were 'good', then we intervened for over 150 years, then we stop flexing our muscles and stop pushing - where are does the Middle East return to? Are we still within the elastic region, where we can say that the Middle East will return to 'good'? If we've passed this critical point, are things so plastic now that we can retreat and things just won't revert? I feel that it requires a major leap of faith to say that normalcy will return in time with either of our complete retreat, or our full-blown intervention.
And what on earth is with the "flexing our muscles" all about? Why do we feel the need to do that?
But that dosent explain or excuse the fighting between the Islamic factions.Iran vs Saudi Arabia is like a joust being waged in Yemen,Libya,And Syria.Shites hate Sunni and so on.That dosent have anything to do with us unless you want to connect our Military Hardware dots to Saud family.
So unrest and turmoil cannot be placed at our feet(west) for blame.Many have said let them handle their own issues.They are ,And it's as fucked up as every.
Lots of blame to go around,but it's a shared blamed.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Ehh,I got a lil hernia cooking just above navel.Very small,only shows or can feel it when doing decline slant board ab excercises or the like.Kinda a pain,thought about getting it put back together but was told if it dosent get bigger or noticeable then I should leave it.Getting old sucks.I can't read anymore without readers,damnit!brianlux said:
As of this point in my life I am happy to report that all my parts are real other than two patches of plastic used in two inguinal hernia repairs. And that, now that I think of it, probably means that I am part middle eastern. Whoa! But don't worry, I am NOT a terrorist!rr165892 said:
Please turn up your hearing aid and put your teeth in when talking to me old timer.:)))brianlux said:
Hey young man, watch what you're... ahh, shit, what are we... hold on... damn, where's my coffee...rr165892 said:
I think we saw the same thing.Brians eyes and ears are just much older then mine and he may have misinterpreted the data.lolAafke said:It's funny to see what different conclusions Brain and Ryan draw from watching the very same program...
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 148.8K Pearl Jam's Music and Activism
- 110K The Porch
- 274 Vitalogy
- 35K Given To Fly (live)
- 3.5K Words and Music...Communication
- 39.1K Flea Market
- 39.1K Lost Dogs
- 58.7K Not Pearl Jam's Music
- 10.6K Musicians and Gearheads
- 29.1K Other Music
- 17.8K Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
- 1.1K The Art Wall
- 56.7K Non-Pearl Jam Discussion
- 22.2K A Moving Train
- 31.7K All Encompassing Trip
- 2.9K Technical Stuff and Help