Baltimore

brianlux

JimmyV said:

Wma31394 said:

brianlux said:

JimmyV said:

brianlux said:

I'm just finishing reading Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior's excellent book Like a Hurricane which goes into great detail about the American Indian Uprisings in the 1970's. One of those incidents involved the Indian take over of the BIA building in D.C. During that siege, angry Indians destroyed furniture, some of the Native American artwork and many of the documents contained therein. The authors show why these actions were tragic- the loss of artifacts for historic purposes but even more importantly, the loss of documents needed for some American Indian's to maintain their land. BUT, as tragic as this was (and considering these authors are Indians and understand their subject matter very well) the authors clearly demonstrate that there were reasons for this anger, primarily the continued injustices toward these people and that despite the losses incurred at the time, these actions (and the others that the book covers) raised awareness in a big way- they were a major wake up call and much positive change eventually resulted from them.

We need to stop looking shortsightedly at the kinds of incidents that is happening in Baltimore and learn from it and start enacting changes that will prevent this from happening in the future. As long as police brutality and oppression and racism continue, these tragic incidences (which, if you understand what I am saying, I am not supporting) will continue to reoccur.

I like where you are coming from with this and I appreciate the historical comparison.I think we can draw obvious parallels between the Bureau of Indian Affairs and local police departments, particularly in how they are viewed by and deal with the populations they are intended to "serve".

In Baltimore I can fully understand the protests, and how some of those protests could turn into conflicts with the police. I think where it differs from the example you gave is that while the Native Americans caused damage while occupying the administration building, the looters in Baltimore burned cars and senior centers while stealing alcohol and other goods. They didn't occupy city hall or ransack a police station. They targeted buildings and businesses in their own communities. These incidents aren't fully comparable.

That's very true, JimmyV. What I'm trying to show is that there is a bigger picture here, that it's unresolved problems that lead to frustration and violence. The result of the violence will bring attention to the problems but if we solve the problems first, we can probably eliminate the violence.

Which leads us to...

Wma31394 said:

I wish the cops would start busting heads.. Show that on tv and maybe the thugs will think twice when it happens in the next city..

...and what you will gain here is more frustration, fewer resolutions of problems and more, not less violence. But were you really looking for a realistic solution with that approach or just stirring the shit? I really don't know- not making any accusations but it sure sounds like shit stirring more than solutions.

What I'm saying is..the end result is thugs doing all the rotten things everyone has mentioned and they should be stopped..if it takes extreme force then so be it..if some guy is robbing your house, business, or committing arson to either..shouldnt they be stopped using force if need be??

I think the end result of that would be the looters suddenly painted in a sympathetic light. Wouldn't matter what they had done - arson, robbery, thrown rocks at cops - the only clip that would be shown on a loop would be the police response.

Exactly.

Wma31394, if you really think about it, what you are proposing is activity that will create an excellent means to gain support for the rioters- the exact opposite of what you seem to want to see happen.

Moving on... Once again the media as well as much of the discussion on this thread is focusing on the sensational and (in the greater context of things) the irrelevant (the closing of sports venues) rather than focusing on the root cause. It's the same reason so many people are dying of cancer or the increased incidence of asthma- too much attention on the sickness (be it physiological or social) and not enough on the cause and prevention. If we continue down this path we will see more looting and rioting (which I am obviously not in favor of), more illness, more environmental degradation, and so forth.

backseatLover12

Empty Glass said:

brianlux said:

Just catching up on this and haven't read every post but it looks like the latest rioting is happening in a town called AMT.

You don't have to catch up. Almost all the threads on AMT are the same

Pretty much.

backseatLover12

brianlux said:

I'm just finishing reading Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior's excellent book Like a Hurricane which goes into great detail about the American Indian Uprisings in the 1970's. One of those incidents involved the Indian take over of the BIA building in D.C. During that siege, angry Indians destroyed furniture, some of the Native American artwork and many of the documents contained therein. The authors show why these actions were tragic- the loss of artifacts for historic purposes but even more importantly, the loss of documents needed for some American Indian's to maintain their land. BUT, as tragic as this was (and considering these authors are Indians and understand their subject matter very well) the authors clearly demonstrate that there were reasons for this anger, primarily the continued injustices toward these people and that despite the losses incurred at the time, these actions (and the others that the book covers) raised awareness in a big way- they were a major wake up call and much positive change eventually resulted from them.

We need to stop looking shortsightedly at the kinds of incidents that is happening in Baltimore and learn from it and start enacting changes that will prevent this from happening in the future. As long as police brutality and oppression and racism continue, these tragic incidences (which, if you understand what I am saying, I am not supporting) will continue to reoccur.

I'm guessing that no one read this, because no one commented. Usually the clear-headed person is always fallen on deaf ears.

But I'm sure everyone will just continue to think that this is not a racism problem, not a police brutality problem and only a "thug" and "apologist" problem as many have noted. Hello racism? The huge elephant in the room that refuses to get discussed???

muskydan

Grab your popcorn boys and girls for tonight's evening festivities....should be must watch TV when the curfew comes into play tonight. Hopefully the gloves come off and the Police/Guard are allowed to do what they are supposed to do if the YOUNG people start misbehaving.

callen

muskydan said:

Grab your popcorn boys and girls for tonight's evening festivities....should be must watch TV when the curfew comes into play tonight. Hopefully the gloves come off and the Police/Guard are allowed to do what they are supposed to do if the YOUNG people start misbehaving.

Must watch TV. VIOLENCE AGAINST THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE.

callen

backseatLover12 said:

brianlux said:

I'm just finishing reading Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior's excellent book Like a Hurricane which goes into great detail about the American Indian Uprisings in the 1970's. One of those incidents involved the Indian take over of the BIA building in D.C. During that siege, angry Indians destroyed furniture, some of the Native American artwork and many of the documents contained therein. The authors show why these actions were tragic- the loss of artifacts for historic purposes but even more importantly, the loss of documents needed for some American Indian's to maintain their land. BUT, as tragic as this was (and considering these authors are Indians and understand their subject matter very well) the authors clearly demonstrate that there were reasons for this anger, primarily the continued injustices toward these people and that despite the losses incurred at the time, these actions (and the others that the book covers) raised awareness in a big way- they were a major wake up call and much positive change eventually resulted from them.

We need to stop looking shortsightedly at the kinds of incidents that is happening in Baltimore and learn from it and start enacting changes that will prevent this from happening in the future. As long as police brutality and oppression and racism continue, these tragic incidences (which, if you understand what I am saying, I am not supporting) will continue to reoccur.

I'm guessing that no one read this, because no one commented. Usually the clear-headed person is always fallen on deaf ears.

But I'm sure everyone will just continue to think that this is not a racism problem, not a police brutality problem and only a "thug" and "apologist" problem as many have noted. Hello racism? The huge elephant in the room that refuses to get discussed???

Oh contraire. It was brought up and many didn't like it.

hedonist

It's not ONLY an issue of race. There are many elephants.

callen

hedonist said:

It's not ONLY an issue of race. There are many elephants.

What are the other issues?

JimmyV

Poverty is much more to blame for the situation in Baltimore than racism is.

hedonist

Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.

backseatLover12

callen said:

backseatLover12 said:

brianlux said:

I'm just finishing reading Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior's excellent book Like a Hurricane which goes into great detail about the American Indian Uprisings in the 1970's. One of those incidents involved the Indian take over of the BIA building in D.C. During that siege, angry Indians destroyed furniture, some of the Native American artwork and many of the documents contained therein. The authors show why these actions were tragic- the loss of artifacts for historic purposes but even more importantly, the loss of documents needed for some American Indian's to maintain their land. BUT, as tragic as this was (and considering these authors are Indians and understand their subject matter very well) the authors clearly demonstrate that there were reasons for this anger, primarily the continued injustices toward these people and that despite the losses incurred at the time, these actions (and the others that the book covers) raised awareness in a big way- they were a major wake up call and much positive change eventually resulted from them.

We need to stop looking shortsightedly at the kinds of incidents that is happening in Baltimore and learn from it and start enacting changes that will prevent this from happening in the future. As long as police brutality and oppression and racism continue, these tragic incidences (which, if you understand what I am saying, I am not supporting) will continue to reoccur.

I'm guessing that no one read this, because no one commented. Usually the clear-headed person is always fallen on deaf ears.

But I'm sure everyone will just continue to think that this is not a racism problem, not a police brutality problem and only a "thug" and "apologist" problem as many have noted. Hello racism? The huge elephant in the room that refuses to get discussed???

Oh contraire. It was brought up and many didn't like it.

That's what I mean. It can be brought up constantly, but those who refuse to comprehend it, will refuse that it's even there.

backseatLover12

callen said:

hedonist said:

It's not ONLY an issue of race. There are many elephants.

What are the other issues?

(posted too quickly).

hedonist

backseatLover12 said:

callen said:

hedonist said:

It's not ONLY an issue of race. There are many elephants.

What are the other issues?

(posted too quickly).

Here, let me wipe that foam from your mouth

backseatLover12

hedonist said:

Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.

How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.

Oh, and lack of parents and good parenting is going on everywhere. Not just location specific.

rr165892

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rr165892 said:

"Two wrongs don't make a right"
We were all taught that when we were young.
Whatever ground was gained in the peaceful protests was washed away with the human cockroach behavior of some of the lowlife peices of shit that chose to Steal,Burn,and destroy the livelihoodsand dreams of there neighbors.These are criminals,punks and thugs and there is no excuse at all for there behavior.Props to those with the balls to try and protect these dwellings and businesses.

Slashing fire hoses,are you fucking kidding me!

I see the excuse crowd is in full effect again.Justifying the actions of criminals.Typical.
The actions of the police are being investigated.If wrong doing was done then I expect those responsible to pay for their actions as well.To the full extent of the law and if it was a hate crime,throw the book at the dirty fuckers.
It's almost comical that the drugstore and the mall were the two new places built in that area to provide an upswing in the economy and living conditions and services withinn that depressed area.So what do the idiots do Burn em and rob em.Classy,classy stuff.

Well said. It is ridiculous to read that if one is critical of the looters, and scumbags and thieves it is because one isn't properly practicing empathy. I have empathy for the family of the victim. I have no patience or tolerance left for the cops who apparently caused the death of the victim. I also have no patience or tolerance left for the fools who are looting. They aren't protesting against police brutality. They aren't protesting injustice. They are criminals who smelled an opportunity to cause problems, descended on the neighborhood, and started burning and looting. There were interviews with local residents who were upset at these outsiders coming in and destroying their neighborhoods. The family of the victim is outraged by the rioting and looting as well. This situation in Baltimore should not be held up as an example of intelligent, thoughtful people who are seeking change.I know the apologists here like to demonstrate their exceptional empathy by extending it to extreme elements, so that they can point fingers at those of us who don't buy into the charade. Save that empathy for the deserving. And save the self-righteousness. It won't work in this case. This isn't an oppressed population rising up against authority. It is opportunistic criminals vs. society.

Nobody is even coming close to this!

You're right, of course. I was using hyperbole. But what we have seen, and not just in this thread, is that when someone condemns the criminal element for looting, burning, and mayhem they are chastised for being unsympathetic, privileged white folk, and the criminals seem to be given a pass because of their social status, race, or neighborhood. It is OK to be disgusted by both the actions of the cops in Gray's case, and the actions of the rioters. Neither should be excused. Both should be condemned. Both are lawless, and anti-social.

In a nutshell!perfect Jeff

Last-12-Exit

backseatLover12 said:

brianlux said:

I'm just finishing reading Paul Chaat Smith and Robert Allen Warrior's excellent book Like a Hurricane which goes into great detail about the American Indian Uprisings in the 1970's. One of those incidents involved the Indian take over of the BIA building in D.C. During that siege, angry Indians destroyed furniture, some of the Native American artwork and many of the documents contained therein. The authors show why these actions were tragic- the loss of artifacts for historic purposes but even more importantly, the loss of documents needed for some American Indian's to maintain their land. BUT, as tragic as this was (and considering these authors are Indians and understand their subject matter very well) the authors clearly demonstrate that there were reasons for this anger, primarily the continued injustices toward these people and that despite the losses incurred at the time, these actions (and the others that the book covers) raised awareness in a big way- they were a major wake up call and much positive change eventually resulted from them.

We need to stop looking shortsightedly at the kinds of incidents that is happening in Baltimore and learn from it and start enacting changes that will prevent this from happening in the future. As long as police brutality and oppression and racism continue, these tragic incidences (which, if you understand what I am saying, I am not supporting) will continue to reoccur.

I'm guessing that no one read this, because no one commented. Usually the clear-headed person is always fallen on deaf ears.

But I'm sure everyone will just continue to think that this is not a racism problem, not a police brutality problem and only a "thug" and "apologist" problem as many have noted. Hello racism? The huge elephant in the room that refuses to get discussed???

I did respond to Brian post. I guess since it isn't your view point, it doesn't count. But you're correct, it is a race issue. But my question is why the black youth decided to vandalize, steal, assault police, and commit arson rather than peacefully protest.

rr165892

callen said:

Being quoted, what an honor.

So glad the pot is stirred.

You're such a trouble maker Cal.

JimmyV

backseatLover12 said:

hedonist said:

Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.

How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.

Racism is brought up over and over again, and racism is discussed over and over again. What we saw last night wasn't the result of racism or even police brutality. Unemployment, poverty, a malfunctioning school system, gang culture...all of these things create a powder keg of a situation. Its too easy and too common to focus just on racism.

callen

JimmyV said:

Poverty is much more to blame for the situation in Baltimore than racism is.

Agree poverty is an issue.

backseatLover12

And I said it before. Because after how many days of peaceful protest, 3? While waiting to hear a statement from police? And getting nothing? Tell me if this Gray guy, if he was your brother and "died in police care" from a broken spine, that you wouldn't lose your cool waiting for a "statement"? I'm not excusing the behavior, but the police are just as responsible in all of this as the "dirty thugs" are. They knew, since they're supposed to be of intelligence, that the public would not standby peacefully for long. This is the human condition at its worse. And the police knew - and were waiting - for riots to happen.