EDIT: For some reason I was unable to quote H2M's post above. This is in response to that, with the italicized text coming from the link posted therein.
The chase started with a failed traffic stop on the edge of downtown by a plainclothes detective who never reported to dispatchers that he had lost sight of the vehicle. Russell then sped past Cleveland police headquarters, where his car backfired. Officers and witnesses standing outside were certain they had heard gunshots and a police radio call for shots fired triggered an adrenaline-fueled rush by officers to join the chase.
Brelo and his partner were two of the first officers to join the pursuit that ultimately included more than 60 police cars, 104 officers and reached at least 100mph.
After driving into a school parking lot more than 20 minutes after the chase began, Russell turned the car around and tried to flee again – sideswiping a cruiser before coming to a stop. Another officer, who said he feared for his life, opened fire, prompting others, including Brelo, to do the same.
I don't know...this story sounds strange to say the least. I understand being suspicious and fearful of police, but leading them on a 20 minute chase at speeds up to 100mph? Sideswiping a cruiser? We know there are far too many examples of police gunning down an innocent man. Not sure this is another one.
EDIT: For some reason I was unable to quote H2M's post above. This is in response to that, with the italicized text coming from the link posted therein.
The chase started with a failed traffic stop on the edge of downtown by a plainclothes detective who never reported to dispatchers that he had lost sight of the vehicle. Russell then sped past Cleveland police headquarters, where his car backfired. Officers and witnesses standing outside were certain they had heard gunshots and a police radio call for shots fired triggered an adrenaline-fueled rush by officers to join the chase.
Brelo and his partner were two of the first officers to join the pursuit that ultimately included more than 60 police cars, 104 officers and reached at least 100mph.
After driving into a school parking lot more than 20 minutes after the chase began, Russell turned the car around and tried to flee again – sideswiping a cruiser before coming to a stop. Another officer, who said he feared for his life, opened fire, prompting others, including Brelo, to do the same.
I don't know...this story sounds strange to say the least. I understand being suspicious and fearful of police, but leading them on a 20 minute chase at speeds up to 100mph? Sideswiping a cruiser? We know there are far too many examples of police gunning down an innocent man. Not sure this is another one.
It's definitely a strange case... The part where it gets extreme is the final officer who, after more than a hundred shots had been fired into the car, jumps onto the hood to empty his clip into the windshield. It comes off as an execution, not as a defense of his life. It seems like he was pissed and wanted to see them die. It reminds me of the "horsechase" where the fatass cops (ok not all fat, but there were some chubbos in the vid) are pissed they had to run so they stomp, punch, and knee a man who is flying flat on his stomach not resisting. The knees to the groin were pretty extreme, those officers should be ashamed of themselves, but I fucking guarantee the only remorse they have is for being caught.
EDIT: For some reason I was unable to quote H2M's post above. This is in response to that, with the italicized text coming from the link posted therein.
The chase started with a failed traffic stop on the edge of downtown by a plainclothes detective who never reported to dispatchers that he had lost sight of the vehicle. Russell then sped past Cleveland police headquarters, where his car backfired. Officers and witnesses standing outside were certain they had heard gunshots and a police radio call for shots fired triggered an adrenaline-fueled rush by officers to join the chase.
Brelo and his partner were two of the first officers to join the pursuit that ultimately included more than 60 police cars, 104 officers and reached at least 100mph.
After driving into a school parking lot more than 20 minutes after the chase began, Russell turned the car around and tried to flee again – sideswiping a cruiser before coming to a stop. Another officer, who said he feared for his life, opened fire, prompting others, including Brelo, to do the same.
I don't know...this story sounds strange to say the least. I understand being suspicious and fearful of police, but leading them on a 20 minute chase at speeds up to 100mph? Sideswiping a cruiser? We know there are far too many examples of police gunning down an innocent man. Not sure this is another one.
It's definitely a strange case... The part where it gets extreme is the final officer who, after more than a hundred shots had been fired into the car, jumps onto the hood to empty his clip into the windshield. It comes off as an execution, not as a defense of his life. It seems like he was pissed and wanted to see them die. It reminds me of the "horsechase" where the fatass cops (ok not all fat, but there were some chubbos in the vid) are pissed they had to run so they stomp, punch, and knee a man who is flying flat on his stomach not resisting. The knees to the groin were pretty extreme, those officers should be ashamed of themselves, but I fucking guarantee the only remorse they have is for being caught.
Absolutely extreme. Elsewhere in the article it describes his defense which is essentially "I don't remember doing that." Alrighty then.
Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.
How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.
Racism is brought up over and over again, and racism is discussed over and over again. What we saw last night wasn't the result of racism or even police brutality. Unemployment, poverty, a malfunctioning school system, gang culture...all of these things create a powder keg of a situation. Its too easy and too common to focus just on racism.
Please show me where there is a discussion on these boards about racism.
What happened last night is a result of continuous break down between the police force and the inner city neighborhood youth of Baltimore. Unemployment and poverty just goes hand in hand with life in the inner city for minorities. It's not a result and it's not the cause of riots that are really about a man who died in police custody, whom the police refuse to release details of.
Still looking for all that discussion and threads on here on racism...
Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.
How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.
Racism is brought up over and over again, and racism is discussed over and over again. What we saw last night wasn't the result of racism or even police brutality. Unemployment, poverty, a malfunctioning school system, gang culture...all of these things create a powder keg of a situation. Its too easy and too common to focus just on racism.
Please show me where there is a discussion on these boards about racism.
What happened last night is a result of continuous break down between the police force and the inner city neighborhood youth of Baltimore. Unemployment and poverty just goes hand in hand with life in the inner city for minorities. It's not a result and it's not the cause of riots that are really about a man who died in police custody, whom the police refuse to release details of.
Still looking for all that discussion and threads on here on racism...
Race plays a part in every discussion of the police and every discussion of guns on this board and has the entire time I've been here. You yourself started a thread recently specifically about the topic.
I did respond to Brian post. I guess since it isn't your view point, it doesn't count. But you're correct, it is a race issue. But my question is why the black youth decided to vandalize, steal, assault police, and commit arson rather than peacefully protest.
If you bothered to care to learn about human behavior from the perspective of a black youth, living in inner-city neighborhoods, constantly at odds with the police with a bad reputation for brutality, poor socio-economic class, you'd maybe comprehend life is so very different for them. But you'd rather classify those of us that can maybe understand that life is different for them, as "apologists" and that we excuse them for their actions. Which is completely false. My question to you, is why there is such a huge problem with police and minorities in the first place.
Because that's all you're willing to focus on. "Thug behavior" and not Police behavior.
Again, My question to you, is why there is such a huge problem with police and minorities in the first place.
BSL,have you ever heard the term"Comply and Complain"?
I don't know where it started,but it basically is saying "Hey,don't run,comply with the officers requests and if anything is not kosher you will still be alive to complain or file a complaint about how you were treated" I heard this today and I makes all of this seem so simple.All the recent cases of death that have been publicized have had suspects who have resisted or ran.I know the kid in the cop car was a different story,but you get what I'm saying right?
Well thats good & dandy but its to late for that minorities have lost all trust in the police force , its hard for us the lucky one's to understand this but it's true believe me i work with alot of black folks and they all say the same thing do not trust the police it's gonna take a monumental effort from both parties to come together on this problem in this country .....
"Its to late for that"? Are you kidding me Jose? "And All minorities have lost all trust". Please.
I have plenty of minority friends.A lot of them would have liked a fire hose to be directed at the looters yesterday. Because they are not criminals or they don't put themselves in a position to be at the receiving end of that kind of harassment.Are there isolated incidents of rascism? Of course.Are there bad cops yes there is. But I bet you can't even count the amount of white cops who risk there life every day to save a minority in trouble.Or Black cops saving a white kid. This new movement throwing the police under the bus because of the actions of a few is assinine.
I saw a plane with a banner flying over a festival this weekend that said "Always film the police"Really wtf is wrong this this?
No let's just let them continue to create victims daily with impunity...after all, it's only a few victims in the grand scheme of things, it won't happen to me so what do I care?
Courts are witnessed, most government dealings, legal procedings, major business deals, hell, you can't even buy a $200 jjunkercar without a notary witness...but lets let the folks who carry guns and have authority to kill do their work in the dark. Makes a lot of sense. Not.
Point being you can't just throw out all the good 99.9 percent of police do for the .01 percent of bad seeds.You know that Gambsy.And if we are keeping it real,almost every case we have debated did indeed have a victim who was breaking the law in one way or another(not the kid in the park).Maybe a good start to creating a more just system should start with not commiting a crime in the first place?Pretty sure that will eliminate a lot of it(not all granted).
It's not throwing out the good, it's holding the bad accountable for their actions. Rioters have personal responsibility to be accountable but police dont?
Rekia Boyd, Tamir Rice, John Crawford. All 3 black people killed by police without a crime committed, without resisting arrest, in the last year or so. Only 1 indictment, no convictions. There are more out there that we haven't heard of, you can be sure of that.
Eric Garner sold self-rolled cigarettes and didn't want to be bullied anymore, killed by cops, no indictment.
You forgot the black couple in either Cincy, Cleveland or Columbus, Ohio who were driving around, minding their own business when the car they were in backfired while passing a cop. He or they mistook the backfire as shots fired and made a panicked radio call. A police chase and over a 100 shots later, they both died in the front seat of the car. No weapons, no drugs.
I don't think I heard this story. Terrible, but I'm left wondering why there was a chase? If they had done nothing wrong and had no contraband, why didn't they just pull over when the lights went on behind them? What am I missing?
Okay, so they were initially confronted by "detectives", plainclothes and whether they identified themselves, I don't know. But read the article and the description of what transpired. 60 police vehicles, 137 shots and multiple violations of police department chase policy. Why didn't they just stop and comply? We'll never honestly know. But all you have to do is view the video of the black gentleman pulling over, sticking his hands up and out of his car, seemingly complying with the officers' commands, only to be pulled from his vehicle and brutally beaten, for failing to signal. I don't know if that was also in Cleveland but the Cleveland police have a reputation of being anything less than cool, calm and collected when it comes to their interactions with black citizens. What are the odds that the judge acquits the officer on trial? If you were black and living in Cleveland, would you pull over, particularly if you hadn't violated the law?
My initial description isn't accurate but the end result is the same. It happened in 2012 and I was typing from memory. When it comes to blacks, some cops seem to have more propensity to become judge, jury and executioner and that's a problem. I'm sure there are other news sources from different perspectives. Google, "Cleveland couple shot 137 times."
That surely seems to be the case H2M.
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
What you hi lighted there is part of the problem. Police officers many times feel when dealing with black people they can just about get away with anything they want.......just as long as nobody is recording them. If the incident in question wasn't recorded in some ways the officers mentality could be "I'm good to go".
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.
How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.
Racism is brought up over and over again, and racism is discussed over and over again. What we saw last night wasn't the result of racism or even police brutality. Unemployment, poverty, a malfunctioning school system, gang culture...all of these things create a powder keg of a situation. Its too easy and too common to focus just on racism.
Please show me where there is a discussion on these boards about racism.
What happened last night is a result of continuous break down between the police force and the inner city neighborhood youth of Baltimore. Unemployment and poverty just goes hand in hand with life in the inner city for minorities. It's not a result and it's not the cause of riots that are really about a man who died in police custody, whom the police refuse to release details of.
Still looking for all that discussion and threads on here on racism...
Then make a point. All you've done is complain that nobody's talking about race.
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
I said this earlier, but the only way racism will end if all parties admit to their faults. Their are all walks of life that perpetuate racist behavior. White people do not own the patent on racism.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
I said this earlier, but the only way racism will end if all parties admit to their faults. Their are all walks of life that perpetuate racist behavior. White people do not own the patent on racism.
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
I said this earlier, but the only way racism will end if all parties admit to their faults. Their are all walks of life that perpetuate racist behavior. White people do not own the patent on racism.
But we own the power.
Blaming one race will not work. People of all races need to come together. White and black. There are white people who would kill someone because they are black as well as black people who will kill someone because they are white. Until all in each group recognizes life is precious nothing will happen. Racism is not the only reason for problems in the black community. Lack of family is huge issue.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Other than giving people billions what more do we need to do? Should we just give people anything they want and hope things turn.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Yeah, as Jimmy mentioned - poverty, lack of education (which has so many ripple-effects), lack of parent(s) and good parenting. Pretty sure there are more but that's a good start, I think.
How about talking about racism though, it is the biggest part of the entire police brutality epidemic going on in this country, and is a HUGE part of these riots.
Racism is brought up over and over again, and racism is discussed over and over again. What we saw last night wasn't the result of racism or even police brutality. Unemployment, poverty, a malfunctioning school system, gang culture...all of these things create a powder keg of a situation. Its too easy and too common to focus just on racism.
Please show me where there is a discussion on these boards about racism.
What happened last night is a result of continuous break down between the police force and the inner city neighborhood youth of Baltimore. Unemployment and poverty just goes hand in hand with life in the inner city for minorities. It's not a result and it's not the cause of riots that are really about a man who died in police custody, whom the police refuse to release details of.
Still looking for all that discussion and threads on here on racism...
Race plays a part in every discussion of the police and every discussion of guns on this board and has the entire time I've been here. You yourself started a thread recently specifically about the topic.
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
I said this earlier, but the only way racism will end if all parties admit to their faults. Their are all walks of life that perpetuate racist behavior. White people do not own the patent on racism.
But we own the power.
Whites certainly do. So we need to own up to it, take responsibility, and do something to change racism. Stop diverting the topic. Watch that video I posted in the race responsibility thread and let's get discussion going. (Not you Callen, it was directed toward everyone here).
Some pretty powerful pictures out of Camden Yards today. Also, I can't find a clip but Adam Jones' interview was worth checking out if it becomes available.
Some pretty powerful pictures out of Camden Yards today. Also, I can't find a clip but Adam Jones' interview was worth checking out if it becomes available.
Never seen anything like it before. Given what caused it, I hope we never see anything like it again.
Some pretty powerful pictures out of Camden Yards today. Also, I can't find a clip but Adam Jones' interview was worth checking out if it becomes available.
My baseball-ignorant ass thought you were talking about Tool's Adam Jones.
Looks like an eerie scene. Had to have felt so strange for the players.
Racism in general is still a major problem in the US. I just received and email from a friend who said he is SO tired of racial profiling against him. And this guy is an Hispanic Franciscan Monk type- about as gentle a soul as you'll meet and this is "liberal" California we're talking about.
Racism has to end.
I said this earlier, but the only way racism will end if all parties admit to their faults. Their are all walks of life that perpetuate racist behavior. White people do not own the patent on racism.
But we own the power.
Blaming one race will not work. People of all races need to come together. White and black. There are white people who would kill someone because they are black as well as black people who will kill someone because they are white. Until all in each group recognizes life is precious nothing will happen. Racism is not the only reason for problems in the black community. Lack of family is huge issue.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
I wonder if selective blinders have been strapped on, because many posts, even the one right above yours, have acknowledged it's A problem but not the sole one.
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
And I like how some folks will try to blame just about anything on racism in order to steer away from liberalism.
Baltimore is predominantly black and has a black mayor and a black police chief. The state has had two republican governors since the 1960's and hasn't had a republican mayor since 1967. Every single member of Baltimore city council is a democrat. Yes racism still exists and this should always be addressed but Baltimore's problems are not race based they are liberal based.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
I wonder if selective blinders have been strapped on, because many posts, even the one right above yours, have acknowledged it's A problem but not the sole one.
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
Maybe because it is still being ignored?
And is a national epidemic between police and minorities? There's no real discussion going on, everyone is deflecting it.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
I wonder if selective blinders have been strapped on, because many posts, even the one right above yours, have acknowledged it's A problem but not the sole one.
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
Because people, including yourself, keep trying to sidestep the biggest issue (systemic racism) with other issues. Those other issues are a problem, but they are not the root cause, pretending it's not is a lie.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
I wonder if selective blinders have been strapped on, because many posts, even the one right above yours, have acknowledged it's A problem but not the sole one.
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
Maybe because it is still being ignored?
And is a national epidemic between police and minorities? There's no real discussion going on, everyone is deflecting it.
I'm pretty sure there is a discussion. Just turn on the tv. You can't escape the discussion. The problem is that you don't like the solutions.
I love how some folks will try to blame Just about anything in order to steer away from racism.
I wonder if selective blinders have been strapped on, because many posts, even the one right above yours, have acknowledged it's A problem but not the sole one.
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
Because people, including yourself, keep trying to sidestep the biggest issue (systemic racism) with other issues. Those other issues are a problem, but they are not the root cause, pretending it's not is a lie.
Backseat is bang on.
What about the black people who are saying what I am that parents need to be involved, that it is not just about racism in Baltimore? Are they just Uncle Tom's ?
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
Comments
The chase started with a failed traffic stop on the edge of downtown by a plainclothes detective who never reported to dispatchers that he had lost sight of the vehicle. Russell then sped past Cleveland police headquarters, where his car backfired. Officers and witnesses standing outside were certain they had heard gunshots and a police radio call for shots fired triggered an adrenaline-fueled rush by officers to join the chase.
Brelo and his partner were two of the first officers to join the pursuit that ultimately included more than 60 police cars, 104 officers and reached at least 100mph.
After driving into a school parking lot more than 20 minutes after the chase began, Russell turned the car around and tried to flee again – sideswiping a cruiser before coming to a stop. Another officer, who said he feared for his life, opened fire, prompting others, including Brelo, to do the same.
I don't know...this story sounds strange to say the least. I understand being suspicious and fearful of police, but leading them on a 20 minute chase at speeds up to 100mph? Sideswiping a cruiser? We know there are far too many examples of police gunning down an innocent man. Not sure this is another one.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
It reminds me of the "horsechase" where the fatass cops (ok not all fat, but there were some chubbos in the vid) are pissed they had to run so they stomp, punch, and knee a man who is flying flat on his stomach not resisting. The knees to the groin were pretty extreme, those officers should be ashamed of themselves, but I fucking guarantee the only remorse they have is for being caught.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_25406.shtml
No one except for Brian and Callen participating…
http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/243079/what-the-hell-happened-in-wisconsin/p1
This one was a gem. No matter how many times I tried to get the ball rolling on race and police brutality it was ignored the entire thread.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Looks like an eerie scene. Had to have felt so strange for the players.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/29/jon-stewart-baltimore_n_7168472.html
Why this keeps being pursued in such a fashion is beyond me.
Baltimore is predominantly black and has a black mayor and a black police chief. The state has had two republican governors since the 1960's and hasn't had a republican mayor since 1967. Every single member of Baltimore city council is a democrat. Yes racism still exists and this should always be addressed but Baltimore's problems are not race based they are liberal based.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And is a national epidemic between police and minorities? There's no real discussion going on, everyone is deflecting it.
Backseat is bang on.
What exactly are the "you people just don't get it" folks looking for? I'd honestly like to know.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II