Meanwhile back in Israel

gimmesometruth27

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

looks like bibi got his coalition.

commence harder right turn and global alienation.

get your popcorn ready. its gonna be a fun year.

No surprise there gimmie

No surprise at all. The big surprise however will be watching Israel, Egypt, SA, Jordan, the PA and the other gulf states team up to confront Iran. Popcorn time indeed.

israel will confront iran. by themselves. we give aid to every one of those countries you listed. they would not think of going with israel against america's wishes.

BS44325

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

looks like bibi got his coalition.

commence harder right turn and global alienation.

get your popcorn ready. its gonna be a fun year.

No surprise there gimmie

No surprise at all. The big surprise however will be watching Israel, Egypt, SA, Jordan, the PA and the other gulf states team up to confront Iran. Popcorn time indeed.

israel will confront iran. by themselves. we give aid to every one of those countries you listed. they would not think of going with israel against america's wishes.

I'm not sure if you're paying attention but no one listens to America anymore.

gimmesometruth27

BS44325 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

looks like bibi got his coalition.

commence harder right turn and global alienation.

get your popcorn ready. its gonna be a fun year.

No surprise there gimmie

No surprise at all. The big surprise however will be watching Israel, Egypt, SA, Jordan, the PA and the other gulf states team up to confront Iran. Popcorn time indeed.

israel will confront iran. by themselves. we give aid to every one of those countries you listed. they would not think of going with israel against america's wishes.

I'm not sure if you're paying attention but no one listens to America anymore.

they shouldn't have to.

we should not be meddling in the affairs of other countries.

nobody listens to canada either.

BS44325

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

looks like bibi got his coalition.

commence harder right turn and global alienation.

get your popcorn ready. its gonna be a fun year.

No surprise there gimmie

No surprise at all. The big surprise however will be watching Israel, Egypt, SA, Jordan, the PA and the other gulf states team up to confront Iran. Popcorn time indeed.

israel will confront iran. by themselves. we give aid to every one of those countries you listed. they would not think of going with israel against america's wishes.

I'm not sure if you're paying attention but no one listens to America anymore.

they shouldn't have to.

we should not be meddling in the affairs of other countries.

nobody listens to canada either.

Except for Putin who met with former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien last week.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/newsmaker-of-the-day-jean-chretien-goes-to-russia/

The Harper goverment has distanced themselves from this meeting but I am sure there was some back channel communications. Maybe a little good cop/bad cop. Who knows? Either way...Canada gets shit done.

Halifax2TheMax

BS44325 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

looks like bibi got his coalition.

commence harder right turn and global alienation.

get your popcorn ready. its gonna be a fun year.

No surprise there gimmie

No surprise at all. The big surprise however will be watching Israel, Egypt, SA, Jordan, the PA and the other gulf states team up to confront Iran. Popcorn time indeed.

israel will confront iran. by themselves. we give aid to every one of those countries you listed. they would not think of going with israel against america's wishes.

I'm not sure if you're paying attention but no one listens to America anymore.

they shouldn't have to.

we should not be meddling in the affairs of other countries.

nobody listens to canada either.

Except for Putin who met with former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien last week.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/newsmaker-of-the-day-jean-chretien-goes-to-russia/

The Harper goverment has distanced themselves from this meeting but I am sure there was some back channel communications. Maybe a little good cop/bad cop. Who knows? Either way...Canada gets shit done.

What "shit" did Canada get done? A former Canadian foreign minister was given a "friendship" medal by Putin and is going to meet with him prior to reporting to some committee back in Canada. That constitutes "getting shit done?" Maple syrup for everyone!

benjs

BS44325 said:

benjs said:

BS44325 said:

benjs said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

Drowned Out said:

This is my point. After all this time we are now seeing a hardening of the Israeli position. BDS is getting musicians to cancel concerts but is not resulting in any meaningful change. Hamas is running the opposition and as long as they do you will see more politicians such as this come to power. Peace becomes harder with every passing day.

Always the Palestinians fault, no matter what you show this guy, he always blames the Palestinians.

Hamas does not accept the right of Israel to exist. It's kind of a deal breaker. Sorry buddy. When you get that sorted out I'm sure we can find something to negotiate over.

If I claim your living room as my own because my neighbour Joe (who's also your landlord) recognized that my wife beat me and felt bad and told me I could do so (without asking for your consent), do I have that right? Then, if I decide to take control of your kitchen as well, does it change the fact that I have no right to jurisdiction over your living room? And if you tell me that I have no right to be there at all, somehow that would leave you as the unreasonable one? Colour me flummoxed.

Who owns the living room is what is in dispute but I think you took control of my kitchen because I lobbed bombs at your living room from my kitchen.

Who owns the living room? I suppose my analogy is incomplete: we were both born and raised (and live together) in the house. We've seen landlords come and go who care not who lives there.
I complain to Joe, the current landlord, "My wife Mary hits me in the head with a frying pan every time I see her without any provocation, and she follows me everywhere I go outside of this house - so I want some of this place as a safe refuge. Also, even in here, I don't like the way BS lives his life, and my head is too sore, I can't go out there and sustain another blow". Joe responds, "It's not my fault Mary hit you over the head with a frying pan, Ben, but I feel badly for you. That said, I'm tired of the headache of dealing with you two, and I just want out. I won't sell the place - you've made it your homes - but I'm not getting involved besides saying that, Ben, in my opinion, you should have some of the house to yourself. Peace!" Joe then tosses me the keys, and jets away in his bitchin' Camaro.

I look over at you, shrug my shoulders, and place the official flag of Bentopia in the living room, and pee on the ground to solidify that this is now my territory. I decide that you can come in, but you must obey by my rules, even if my rules go against your personal or cultural beliefs. Do I have the right to do this?

Edit: Now, five years have passed. As a result of your violent opposition to my occupation of the living room, I find that this permits me to take control of your kitchen as well, as well as negating any questions of the legitimacy of how I attained sovereignty over the living room. Is this justifiable?

Holy crap this is complicated. It took me a half hour just to figure out your living room analogy!

It's really not that complicated. And now that you've had your half an hour comprehension plus half a day digestion time - how about some answers?

Halifax2TheMax

Tsk, tsk, tsk, BS doesn't like questions. He's Professor Chickenhawk, don'tcha know?

benjs

Halifax2TheMax said:

Tsk, tsk, tsk, BS doesn't like questions. He's Professor Chickenhawk, don'tcha know?

Agree with him or disagree with him, there's no need to call him names. I'm just looking for answers to a thought experiment I figured was a reasonable, simplified scenario roughly analogous to the situation at hand.

Halifax2TheMax

Its an honorific title, half of which he self proclaimed, maybe in another thread. I don't remember. BS should also heed your advice. Just saying. But I really don't mind being called an idiot. Its okay.

benjs

Halifax2TheMax said:

Its an honorific title, half of which he self proclaimed, maybe in another thread. I don't remember. BS should also heed your advice. Just saying. But I really don't mind being called an idiot. Its okay.

Sorry Hali, I didn't see that he called you that, but you're absolutely right. There's no place for that no matter who's saying it and who's receiving it.

Drowned Out

BS - sadly opportunistic to use discussions between Putin (the guy you recently claimed I support as evidence of...something), and Chrétien (the PM that kept us out of the Iraq war you approved of), to defend our country as a military power that 'gets shit done'.

BS44325 said:

Drowned Out said:

Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shaked—who called for genocide of Palestinians—as Justice Minister in new government

See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government#sthash.xk22Px0N.dpuf
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided to appoint Ayelet Shaked as justice minister in his fourth government. Shaked is a Member of Knesset (MK) representing the far-right HaBayit HaYehudi (“Jewish Home”) party. She is known for her extreme, ultranationalist views.
During Israel’s summer 2014 attack on Gaza, MK Shaked essentially called for the genocide of Palestinians. In a Facebook post on July 1—a day before Israeli extremists kidnapped Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir and burned him alive—the lawmaker asserted that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and called for its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”

Her post consisted of an excerpt from an article by Uri Elitzur, the late right-wing journalist and leader of the Israeli settler movement, which seeks to colonize Palestinian land in contravention of international law. Elitzur also served as a speechwriter and advisor to Netanyahu.

Shaked later deleted the status, which garnered 1,000s of likes and shares, yet not before it was archived. The following is a translation of her post (courtesy of Dena Shunra):

The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevic’s Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.

And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.

A week before, Shaked wrote another status insisting

This is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. The reality is that this is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people.

These remarks led Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan to compare MK Shaked to Hitler. “If these words had been said by a Palestinian, the whole world would have denounced it,” he remarked.

Journalist Mira Bar-Hillel called the statements “the reason why I am on the brink of burning my Israeli passport.”

Shaked has also adamantly opposed signing any peace deals with Palestinians based on the pre-1967 borders, claiming that such a deal would constitute “national suicide.” Netanyahu was re-elected on the promise that there would never be a Palestinian state.

The lawmaker has furthermore called for annexing parts of the West Bank, which have been under illegal Israeli military occupation since 1967.

Naftali Bennett, the leader of the HaBayit HaYehudi party of which Shaked is a prominent member, has himself drawn criticism for his similarly extreme, far-right views. In 2013, Bennett, as Minister of the Economy, declared “I have killed lots of Arabs in my life—and there is no problem with that.”

Bennett has also defended his role as company commander in the April 1996 Qana massacre, in which the Israeli military killed 106 Lebanese civilians and injured 116 Lebanese civilians and four UN workers.

This is my point. After all this time we are now seeing a hardening of the Israeli position. BDS is getting musicians to cancel concerts but is not resulting in any meaningful change. Hamas is running the opposition and as long as they do you will see more politicians such as this come to power. Peace becomes harder with every passing day.

Ok...I inform you that a person who has called for Palestinian genocide has been appointed Justice Minister; the person responsible for choosing the Attorney General. I also show that the leader of her party was involved in a civilian massacre and has no problem boasting about killing arabs. Bennett and Shaked's party has now formed a coalition with Bibi's party, and been assigned powerful cabinet positions.
Your response to this is to incorrectly state that Hamas forms the opposition in the PA (they are part of a unity government with Fatah), and point to this as the reason these politicians are coming to power.
I guess this tit-for-tat only goes one way? The politicians forming a coalition to govern Israel are products of Hamas terrorism....but the politicians forming a coalition to govern the occupied territories are...not a product of Israeli oppression? Please explain your glaring double standard.

yosi

You do realize that Israel has internal politics, right? And that not everything that happens in Israeli politics is in response to the Palestinians? You also realize that the West Bank is under military occupation, so affairs there fall into the defense ministry portfolio, not the justice ministry.

badbrains

yosi said:

You do realize that Israel has internal politics, right? And that not everything that happens in Israeli politics is in response to the Palestinians? You also realize that the West Bank is under military occupation, so affairs there fall into the defense ministry portfolio, not the justice ministry.

I'd say drowned out knows a lot when it comes to this conflict or Israel. Just saying.

yosi

My point is simply to warn against oversimplification and being sloppy with facts.

Drowned Out

yosi said:

You do realize that Israel has internal politics, right? And that not everything that happens in Israeli politics is in response to the Palestinians? You also realize that the West Bank is under military occupation, so affairs there fall into the defense ministry portfolio, not the justice ministry.

Despite the fact that you always claim to be a liberal zionist, and not a bibi supporter, here you are defending this appointment, and excusing perhaps the most right-wing government ever in Israel as simply internal politics....? not surprised one bit.

Of course I realize all of this.....your point? (aside from confusing casual observers?)
Internal politics....yes, I realize it's the nature of politics to form coalitions in order to maintain power. And yes, I realize that Bennett had all the leverage as Bibi was desperate to get his appointments finalized before the deadline. I guess because forming coalitions with different political parties is the norm, it's ok to appoint someone who called for genocide as justice minister?

Again...how is this any different from the internal politics of the OT? Do you think that Shaked's appointment is inconsequential to the civil liberties of palestinian Israelis?

About that defense ministry....shall we talk about the defense minister, Moshe Yaalon? Sued for his part in the same massacre (Qana Lebanon) Bennett was involved in, a lawsuit dismissed because of diplomatic immunity? The guy who described Palestinians as a cancer: "There are all kinds of solutions to cancerous manifestations. Some will say it is necessary to amputate organs. But at the moment, I am applying chemotherapy, yes."...?
The guy who cancelled a trip to London for fear of arrest on war crimes charges he faced for yet another civilian massacre?
The guy who said "we are going to hurt Lebanese civilians to include kids of the family. We went through a very long deep discussion … we did it then, we did it in [the] Gaza Strip, we are going to do it in any round of hostilities in the future.”...? and in the same speech threatened Iran with nuclear war:
“in certain cases” when “we feel like we don’t have the answer by surgical operations” Israel might take “certain steps” such as the Americans did in “Nagasaki and Hiroshima, causing at the end the fatalities of 200,000.” ...? (from ei)

phew! The palestinians are so much better off living under Yaalon than Shaked, eh? This guy seems like a real pussycat.

Drowned Out

yosi said:

My point is simply to warn against oversimplification and being sloppy with facts.

yet no warning to BS who called Hamas the opposition?

badbrains

Drowned Out said:

yosi said:

You do realize that Israel has internal politics, right? And that not everything that happens in Israeli politics is in response to the Palestinians? You also realize that the West Bank is under military occupation, so affairs there fall into the defense ministry portfolio, not the justice ministry.

Despite the fact that you always claim to be a liberal zionist, and not a bibi supporter, here you are defending this appointment, and excusing perhaps the most right-wing government ever in Israel as simply internal politics....? not surprised one bit.

Of course I realize all of this.....your point? (aside from confusing casual observers?)
Internal politics....yes, I realize it's the nature of politics to form coalitions in order to maintain power. And yes, I realize that Bennett had all the leverage as Bibi was desperate to get his appointments finalized before the deadline. I guess because forming coalitions with different political parties is the norm, it's ok to appoint someone who called for genocide as justice minister?

Again...how is this any different from the internal politics of the OT? Do you think that Shaked's appointment is inconsequential to the civil liberties of palestinian Israelis?

About that justice ministry....shall we talk about the justice minister, Moshe Yaalon? Sued for his part in the same massacre (Qana Lebanon) Bennett was involved in, a lawsuit dismissed because of diplomatic immunity? The guy who described Palestinians as a cancer: "There are all kinds of solutions to cancerous manifestations. Some will say it is necessary to amputate organs. But at the moment, I am applying chemotherapy, yes."...?
The guy who cancelled a trip to London for fear of arrest on war crimes charges he faced for yet another civilian massacre?
The guy who said "we are going to hurt Lebanese civilians to include kids of the family. We went through a very long deep discussion … we did it then, we did it in [the] Gaza Strip, we are going to do it in any round of hostilities in the future.”...? and in the same speech threatened Iran with nuclear war:
“in certain cases” when “we feel like we don’t have the answer by surgical operations” Israel might take “certain steps” such as the Americans did in “Nagasaki and Hiroshima, causing at the end the fatalities of 200,000.” ...? (from ei)

phew! The palestinians are so much better off living under Yaalon than Shaked, eh? This guy seems like a real pussycat.

See

badbrains

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/07/what_israel_fears_with_the_successes_of_the_boycott_divestment_and_sanctions_movement/

Again, who do these clowns in the senate and congress work for?

yosi

Didn't notice his comment about Hamas, and frankly, I'm just not gonna respond to everything. And you're reading basically everything into my very limited comment. I'm disgusted with Bibi and abhor the current government. I'm just being nitpicky.

Drowned Out

Only the first three paragraphs deal with your comments. Thanks for the clarification, but I don't think I was making any big leaps...? You made excuses for the appointment - that was my main point. I'm glad youre disgusted, but have to wonder why you only showed up to be nitpicky about my criticism, instead of expressing your disgust...

I asked BS the question regarding the Israel vs PA coalitions first...still hoping he'll take a shot at that one....