Meanwhile back in Israel

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    Define "Jewish Identity" for me will you?
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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    Mickeyrat, who're you asking?
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    Both you and yosi.
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,205
    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    I was clear in the question. define it. Not what you THINK it is. but what it actually is. ethnic? nationality? belief in judaism? define it.
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,205
    That's a complicated question the answer to which shifts from person to person. And that's true both for personal identity and the state's identity (since I'm not sure which you're asking about). I don't mean to be evasive, but you're asking a very broad question.
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    edited May 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    I was clear in the question. define it. Not what you THINK it is. but what it actually is. ethnic? nationality? belief in judaism? define it.

    To ask what defines a Jewish identity is much like asking you what defines an American. I could be technical and say a Jew is a person who either converts to Judaism, or is born to a Jewish mother. Similarly, I could say you are an American if you hold American citizenship. But I can tell you this: I could live a hundred years in America, and even though my dad is American and therefore (according to the US government) I am American - I sure as hell don't identify as American.

    Since Judaism has been recognized over the years as both a race and a religion (and a culture that has grown as a result), there are some major complexities associated with that question. Interestingly enough, in Toronto, to be Jewish very much equates to being Zionist, and accepting of Israeli actions. Because of living here and understanding that fact, I have never identified less as a Jew than since learning about this conflict. I've also spoken to an ultra-Orthodox Jew in Israel who told me to my face that I am not a Jew. He didn't mean it offensively. He meant that based on my core values and ways of life, he did not consider me a Jew (left-leaning was part of that), even though my mother was Jewish, and we can actually trace our lineage back to Rebbe Nachman, a Rabbi who started a Hasidic movement. This same man once taught me a Jewish concept of "whose blood is redder", meaning we can not decide what a person is worth and who a person is by what we see on the outside. The irony - but back on topic here.

    What I think is that if reparations are indeed only to be granted with the concept of a Jewish identity preserved (and maybe this is what you're getting at) then the concept of a Jewish identity simply must be demystified in order to progress. How can you protect an abstract thought whose definition varies from person to person and can even change over time?
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    More people complaining that news sources are silent when it comes to Israeli guests.


    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/amena-saleem/softball-interviews-israeli-ministers-breach-impartiality-code-bbc-admits
  • yosiyosi Posts: 2,205
    Benjs, it's only ever been defined as a race by its enemies. There are Jews of myriad different racial backgrounds. I'd say that what you're getting at is a shared ethnic heritage. In any event the way I would have put it is that Jews have for millennia understood themselves as comprising both a religion and a nation (the shared culture being a feature of both).
    Add about 8,000 posts to my post number.


    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.

  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    edited May 2015
    yosi said:

    Benjs, it's only ever been defined as a race by its enemies. There are Jews of myriad different racial backgrounds. I'd say that what you're getting at is a shared ethnic heritage. In any event the way I would have put it is that Jews have for millennia understood themselves as comprising both a religion and a nation (the shared culture being a feature of both).

    Fair enough - nation, not race. I still stand by what I say that, if we're to say that the Jewish identity is no longer up for discussion (i.e. it must be preserved in the region), and that some form of reparations are owed to the Palestinians, then defining a Jewish identity would probably be a solid first step to decide what form reparations may take.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 19,476
    You can talk about Jewish identity and what a defined Jewish state would look like until the cows come home. Meanwhile, the Israeli government had to walk back their plan of separate buses for Jews and Palestinians returning from the West Bank. Separate but equal? Yea okay, I get it. It's Selma and Montgomery all over again. WTF?
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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255

    You can talk about Jewish identity and what a defined Jewish state would look like until the cows come home. Meanwhile, the Israeli government had to walk back their plan of separate buses for Jews and Palestinians returning from the West Bank. Separate but equal? Yea okay, I get it. It's Selma and Montgomery all over again. WTF?

    Ya, I saw something about this today.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 16,161
    ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.
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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    edited May 2015

    ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

    In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

    Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

    Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • i_lov_iti_lov_it Perth, Western AustraliaPosts: 3,898
    edited May 2015
    benjs said:

    ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

    In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

    Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

    Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.
    Good point also I don't think it was an experiment of such and you mention "Marketing" what are they selling?...could it be weapons for the fighting maybe or Democracy even.
    Post edited by i_lov_it on
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    i_lov_it said:

    benjs said:

    ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

    In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

    Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

    Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.
    Good point also I don't think it was an experiment of such and you mention "Marketing" what are they selling?...could it be weapons for the fighting maybe or Democracy even.
    Fear.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Fear is your only God
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    mickeyrat said:

    i_lov_it said:

    benjs said:

    ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

    In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

    Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

    Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.
    Good point also I don't think it was an experiment of such and you mention "Marketing" what are they selling?...could it be weapons for the fighting maybe or Democracy even.
    Fear.
    I'd agree with this statement. Fear to rationalize elitism.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,550
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    I have a feeling you're gonna see the messiah return before you get your answer.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,483
    edited May 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    yosi said:

    I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

    Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?
    Waiting, watching the clock......
    Still Here
    Taps fingers on the table.
    anxiously waiting a reply.
    I was waiting to see if Yosi would respond to this, as it was a question addressed to him. The Gregorian calendar (including statutory holidays) is based off of Christianity. As a Jew, I still get days off for Christmas and New Year's Day, not Passover. In Israel, I would expect that national holidays would be aligned with Jewish holidays as well, and that it would become all but commonplace to pay Muslims on Islamic holidays (just as I've actually never had issues with employers in Canada paying me on Jewish holidays if I need to be with my family).

    Yosi - I do have a question as well. The synagogue in Israel defines the immigration policy, inasmuch as it gives preference to a religious affiliation - this for a state with so much historical and religious significance to those of the Islamic and Christian faiths, not to mention those who (and let's not bother with details for the purpose of this conversation) once lived on this land, and now don't. Is a population demographic not a state affair? When the synagogue is responsible for that, how could Israel ever exist with a strict separation of synagogue and state?

    Not to mention - when your population is demographically skewed by an unfair immigration policy, that trickles down to other policies, as a predominantly Jewish population will vote on topics in ways that work out advantageously towards predominantly Jews.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,921
    Report by Amnesty International on Hamas actions against its own people during last year's war.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11631865/Amnesty-International-report-details-spine-chilling-Hamas-killings-and-torture.html

    You can be for a free Palestine and be against Hamas at the same time.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    BS44325 said:

    Report by Amnesty International on Hamas actions against its own people during last year's war.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11631865/Amnesty-International-report-details-spine-chilling-Hamas-killings-and-torture.html

    You can be for a free Palestine and be against Hamas at the same time.

    or you can be a lost cause like yourself.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,921
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Report by Amnesty International on Hamas actions against its own people during last year's war.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11631865/Amnesty-International-report-details-spine-chilling-Hamas-killings-and-torture.html

    You can be for a free Palestine and be against Hamas at the same time.

    or you can be a lost cause like yourself.
    Why you embrace Hamas over the moderate Palestinian factions makes zero sense too me? Maybe one day you can explain it to us.
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Report by Amnesty International on Hamas actions against its own people during last year's war.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11631865/Amnesty-International-report-details-spine-chilling-Hamas-killings-and-torture.html

    You can be for a free Palestine and be against Hamas at the same time.

    or you can be a lost cause like yourself.
    Why you embrace Hamas over the moderate Palestinian factions makes zero sense too me? Maybe one day you can explain it to us.
    I have to explain shit to you? I embrace Hamas now? Really? You support a fucken regime hell bent on killing all the civilians in Palestine and take all of their land. Who's killed more innocent people BS, Hamas or the regime of Israel? Serious question.
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