Israel knows Obama won't bend over and open wide, so they will wait for Hillary to become president. Wait for the "defense aid" she signs, will be largest in history! Squeal like a pig.
There was no immediate word from Netanyahu's office about the cancellation, which also comes as the two close allies are struggling to negotiate a new 10-year, multibillion-dollar defense aid agreement for Israel. Netanyahu and his aides suggested in February if Israel were unable to reach an accord with Obama, it could wait for the next president to secure better terms. Current U.S. defense aid to Israel, worth about $3 billion annually, expires in 2018. The two sides are seeking an extension before Obama leaves office in January 2017.
Hillary's only grandkid is a dually whose papa is a dually hedge fund boss whose father excongressman went to jail for fraud. We (USA) will be bled dry. There will be shiny new bridges, roads and superhighways throughout not only Israel but big huge WALLS in occupied lands as well, while our infrastructure decays and crumbles.
Well... my morning has gone from making fun of Ted Cruz's booger to becoming f**king outraged. I was warned.
Just brutal.
For those that may like seeing video or pictures of a 14 year old girl bleed out and die with an ambulance a few feet away Google yasmin rashad al-zarou.
US taxpayer: another day another dollar less federal income taxes
Israel: another day another $10,000,000 US taxpayer dollars and another dead Palestinian teenage terrorist
Well... my morning has gone from making fun of Ted Cruz's booger to becoming f**king outraged. I was warned.
Just brutal.
For those that may like seeing video or pictures of a 14 year old girl bleed out and die with an ambulance a few feet away Google yasmin rashad al-zarou.
US taxpayer: another day another dollar less federal income taxes
Israel: another day another $10,000,000 US taxpayer dollars and another dead Palestinian teenage terrorist
Israel: ultra high tech weaponry able to slaughter Palestinian teenagers from 200 yards away supplied and paid by US taxpayers
Palestine: kitchen utensils against repressive occupiers at arms length
Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length
I'll describe real life the conversion I had with a Palestinian living under occupantion not for you but for those that may happen to read this. Remember this is real life not internet headlines.
I asked why would anyone especially someone young attempt to stab IDF, Israeli guards with a knife, that would likely cause only superficial wounds if one were to get within reach (NOT CITIZENS)... Her reply paraphrased: The only thing I could compare it to for Americans to understand, remember the twin towers jumpers? Imagine the frame of mind at that moment, imagine that jumping from 87 floors high above concrete is your only escape, 202 of them, it's that bad. Like the towers what we had was turned into rubble.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Appreciate it....didn't even want to bring it up, some are too far gone. I've seen the timestamped photos of no knife next to dead bodies then a knife next to dead body with the headline attempted instead of alleged. It also speaks to the disproportionality of the conflict, rifle/kitchen knife and obliterating entire towns killing 100s of civilians in response to a single rocket fired that set off alarms and created 6x4x2 foot crater in the earth in response to 8 year old shot while kicking a soccer ball on the beach.
Israel: ultra high tech weaponry able to slaughter Palestinian teenagers from 200 yards away supplied and paid by US taxpayers
Palestine: kitchen utensils against repressive occupiers at arms length
Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length
I'll describe real life the conversion I had with a Palestinian living under occupantion not for you but for those that may happen to read this. Remember this is real life not internet headlines.
I asked why would anyone especially someone young attempt to stab IDF, Israeli guards with a knife, that would likely cause only superficial wounds if one were to get within reach (NOT CITIZENS)... Her reply paraphrased: The only thing I could compare it to for Americans to understand, remember the twin towers jumpers? Imagine the frame of mind at that moment, imagine that jumping from 87 floors high above concrete is your only escape, 202 of them, it's that bad. Like the towers what we had was turned into rubble.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
I'll post the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the past 10 years after someone posts the number of Palestinians and Israelis killed by Hamas during the same period.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
Your words: "Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length". Saying something is 'better' sounds like advocating to me....do you feel the same way about Canadian police forces? They should shoot to kill any time they deem someone a threat? So explain which method of non-lethal force can be used at 200 yards? What ARE you advocating here?
Also, there is a difference between terrorism and extra-judicial assassination. Has there been examples of the PA assassinating israeli criminals without trial?
And not that it deserves a response, but I'll state again....I don't support violence in any situation outside of self defense. that doesn't mean I have zero understanding of how violence begets violence, and which side contributes more to the cycle.
I'll post the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the past 10 years after someone posts the number of Palestinians and Israelis killed by Hamas during the same period.
Israel produces that data. Hamas does not. I usually support the more transparent entity and not the one with the smaller number.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
Your words: "Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length". Saying something is 'better' sounds like advocating to me....do you feel the same way about Canadian police forces? They should shoot to kill any time they deem someone a threat? So explain which method of non-lethal force can be used at 200 yards? What ARE you advocating here?
Also, there is a difference between terrorism and extra-judicial assassination. Has there been examples of the PA assassinating israeli criminals without trial?
And not that it deserves a response, but I'll state again....I don't support violence in any situation outside of self defense. that doesn't mean I have zero understanding of how violence begets violence, and which side contributes more to the cycle.
Yes those are my words and I stand by them. "Better" is referring to self defence regardless of yardage and I am glad that you support violence in those situations.
I'll post the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the past 10 years after someone posts the number of Palestinians and Israelis killed by Hamas during the same period.
Israel produces that data. Hamas does not. I usually support the more transparent entity and not the one with the smaller number.
Take the numbers from any four of your sources add them and round up to the nearest thousand. Then I'll post.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
Your words: "Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length". Saying something is 'better' sounds like advocating to me....do you feel the same way about Canadian police forces? They should shoot to kill any time they deem someone a threat? So explain which method of non-lethal force can be used at 200 yards? What ARE you advocating here?
Also, there is a difference between terrorism and extra-judicial assassination. Has there been examples of the PA assassinating israeli criminals without trial?
And not that it deserves a response, but I'll state again....I don't support violence in any situation outside of self defense. that doesn't mean I have zero understanding of how violence begets violence, and which side contributes more to the cycle.
Yes those are my words and I stand by them. "Better" is referring to self defence regardless of yardage and I am glad that you support violence in those situations.
Shooting someone with a knife from 200 yards is not self defense, no matter how much you wish it to be.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,788
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Those first two videos are damning- simply indefensible.
The third... did the woman just stab someone (the title of the clip states so)? And is the woman refusing to drop the knife she just stabbed someone with?
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
I am not advocating for anything but regardless...Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time and nobody on here really cares. This train only moves in one direction.
Your words: "Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length". Saying something is 'better' sounds like advocating to me....do you feel the same way about Canadian police forces? They should shoot to kill any time they deem someone a threat? So explain which method of non-lethal force can be used at 200 yards? What ARE you advocating here?
Also, there is a difference between terrorism and extra-judicial assassination. Has there been examples of the PA assassinating israeli criminals without trial?
And not that it deserves a response, but I'll state again....I don't support violence in any situation outside of self defense. that doesn't mean I have zero understanding of how violence begets violence, and which side contributes more to the cycle.
Yes those are my words and I stand by them. "Better" is referring to self defence regardless of yardage and I am glad that you support violence in those situations.
Shooting someone with a knife from 200 yards is not self defense, no matter how much you wish it to be.
I'll post the number of Palestinians killed by Israel in the past 10 years after someone posts the number of Palestinians and Israelis killed by Hamas during the same period.
Israel produces that data. Hamas does not. I usually support the more transparent entity and not the one with the smaller number.
Take the numbers from any four of your sources add them and round up to the nearest thousand. Then I'll post.
Nah. I think we agree that more Palestinians have died over the years then Israelis. No source would claim otherwise. The question you need to ask yourself is why? Hamas encourages martyrdom and yet you wonder why there are more martyrs. Extremism is a dead end and it is long past time you push for a moderate palestinian leadership to guide them out of this horror.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Those first two videos are damning- simply indefensible.
The third... did the woman just stab someone (the title of the clip states so)? And is the woman refusing to drop the knife she just stabbed someone with?
I knew you'd pick up on this one - you've had this kind of discussion here many times...but usually centred around an american incident. I'm not exactly well versed on this story, so I can't confirm or deny that....however....even if she was holding a knife and refusing to drop it, I guess the question that needs to be asked is - did the situation escalate in any way to provoke the shooting over other methods of taking her down? It was obviously a highly charged situation, but could a taser or some other non-lethal weapon not have done the job? The video does not show her charging or swinging. Comments on the video state that she is crying out to her mother (in arabic, I can't confirm), obviously terrified....I don't see any aggression on her part in this video. So as I mentioned - separate issue - even if she was guilty of stabbing someone, is this another case in a pattern of excessive force / extra judicial assasination? They shot a surrounded, lone woman with a knife six times.
An american tourist killed and many wounded. Read down to see the picture of the guy in the Tool shirt who hit the attacker over the head with his acoustic guitar.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Those first two videos are damning- simply indefensible.
The third... did the woman just stab someone (the title of the clip states so)? And is the woman refusing to drop the knife she just stabbed someone with?
I knew you'd pick up on this one - you've had this kind of discussion here many times...but usually centred around an american incident. I'm not exactly well versed on this story, so I can't confirm or deny that....however....even if she was holding a knife and refusing to drop it, I guess the question that needs to be asked is - did the situation escalate in any way to provoke the shooting over other methods of taking her down? It was obviously a highly charged situation, but could a taser or some other non-lethal weapon not have done the job? The video does not show her charging or swinging. Comments on the video state that she is crying out to her mother (in arabic, I can't confirm), obviously terrified....I don't see any aggression on her part in this video. So as I mentioned - separate issue - even if she was guilty of stabbing someone, is this another case in a pattern of excessive force / extra judicial assasination? They shot a surrounded, lone woman with a knife six times.
Haha.
I'm that obvious, eh? If so... I'm not the only one around here that is predictable.
If the woman did stab someone and was refusing to drop her knife and comply... then I don't feel too sorry for her. The victim of her knife attack likely wouldn't be feeling too sorry for her either.
I would say that there could have been better methods of disarming and subduing her; however, it at least appears the forces there tried to get her to stand down. Regardless, let's not debate how much patience is appropriate for such a scenario.
The first two videos make a compelling case for what you have argued very well to this point. The third, at least in my eyes, doesn't offer as much.
Extra judicial assassinations in occupied territories constitute a war crime....that's what BS is advocating by saying 'better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards'. Non-lethal force is an option in these situations, but the IDF prefers to just gun anyone down.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched). There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent. Then there are these two incidents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKpJWyt3XMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN-vhGwVMi0
There are two separate issues here: -Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill? -How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes? No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
Those first two videos are damning- simply indefensible.
The third... did the woman just stab someone (the title of the clip states so)? And is the woman refusing to drop the knife she just stabbed someone with?
I knew you'd pick up on this one - you've had this kind of discussion here many times...but usually centred around an american incident. I'm not exactly well versed on this story, so I can't confirm or deny that....however....even if she was holding a knife and refusing to drop it, I guess the question that needs to be asked is - did the situation escalate in any way to provoke the shooting over other methods of taking her down? It was obviously a highly charged situation, but could a taser or some other non-lethal weapon not have done the job? The video does not show her charging or swinging. Comments on the video state that she is crying out to her mother (in arabic, I can't confirm), obviously terrified....I don't see any aggression on her part in this video. So as I mentioned - separate issue - even if she was guilty of stabbing someone, is this another case in a pattern of excessive force / extra judicial assasination? They shot a surrounded, lone woman with a knife six times.
Haha.
I'm that obvious, eh? If so... I'm not the only one around here that is predictable.
If the woman did stab someone and was refusing to drop her knife and comply... then I don't feel too sorry for her. The victim of her knife attack likely wouldn't be feeling too sorry for her either.
I would say that there could have been better methods of disarming and subduing her; however, it at least appears the forces there tried to get her to stand down. Regardless, let's not debate how much patience is appropriate for such a scenario.
The first two videos make a compelling case for what you have argued very well to this point. The third, at least in my eyes, doesn't offer as much.
I'm sure I'm one of the predictable ones....having such a small community on this forum and knowing each other's stances kinda takes the fun out of this place. Because of this, my posts are often written while thinking five responses ahead. In a way I guess it keeps us on our toes, but some outside opinions would probably be a much more productive way of doing that. I was aware when I posted that there wouldn't be much sympathy for the attackers in these situations (again, I don't know the story of the girl in this video), but I just wanted to point out that the Israeli side isn't always the whole truth (or true at all), and that there is an ongoing issue with extra-judicial killings in the OPT, esp since the knife attacks began. Felt it was important enough to mention regardless of the victim's actions.
You've succeeded in doing that- even though any objective person sifting through this thread or any other material related to the conflict understands that Israel has serious credibility issues.
The knife planting incidents are brutal. These were caught on film. Not all incidents do get captured on film. How many more incidents have likely occurred? It also seems as if this tactic is secretively sanctioned: the men look polished in the act (the slick baton pass of the knife).
I still stand by my position with regards to the woman with the knife, but I should qualify my position by saying I also understand her motivation. Ultimately, she became a soldier. A really shitty situation.
Comments
Squeal like a pig.
There was no immediate word from Netanyahu's office about the cancellation, which also comes as the two close allies are struggling to negotiate a new 10-year, multibillion-dollar defense aid agreement for Israel.
Netanyahu and his aides suggested in February if Israel were unable to reach an accord with Obama, it could wait for the next president to secure better terms. Current U.S. defense aid to Israel, worth about $3 billion annually, expires in 2018. The two sides are seeking an extension before Obama leaves office in January 2017.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W92BR
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/israeli-soldiers-shoot-critically-injure-14-year-old-girl-graphic-video/
Just brutal.
US taxpayer: another day another dollar less federal income taxes
Israel: another day another $10,000,000 US taxpayer dollars and another dead Palestinian teenage terrorist
http://news.yahoo.com/least-10-israelis-stabbed-tel-aviv-171626658.html;_ylt=AwrC1C5OCd9WkzcAH1nQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--
Israel: ultra high tech weaponry able to slaughter Palestinian teenagers from 200 yards away supplied and paid by US taxpayers
Palestine: kitchen utensils against repressive occupiers at arms length
I asked why would anyone especially someone young attempt to stab IDF, Israeli guards with a knife, that would likely cause only superficial wounds if one were to get within reach (NOT CITIZENS)... Her reply paraphrased: The only thing I could compare it to for Americans to understand, remember the twin towers jumpers? Imagine the frame of mind at that moment, imagine that jumping from 87 floors high above concrete is your only escape, 202 of them, it's that bad. Like the towers what we had was turned into rubble.
On top of that, there have been several incidents of the IDF being accused of planting the knives after the fact....the shooting at the Hebron checkpoint a few months back was blamed on a knife threat, tho eyewitnesses claimed they saw no knife (in this case, the palestinian girl was allowed to bleed out while israeli emt's watched).
There was another instance in which a scuffle between protestors and IDF members was filmed...you can hear the IDF soldiers asking each other if they should go get a knife....having trouble finding this video, but it was recent.
Then there are these two incidents:
and another example of a girl surrounded by police and assassinated as if there was no other option:
(graphic?)
There are two separate issues here:
-Is the IDF using excessive force by shooting to kill?
-How accurate are IDF reports on these stabbings? Are they framing palestinians to justify their own crimes?
No one will deny these attacks take place. But if they are using excessive force, and in some cases framing palestinians, can we trust IDF claims of rocket attacks etc that always justify major military operations?
It also speaks to the disproportionality of the conflict, rifle/kitchen knife and obliterating entire towns killing 100s of civilians in response to a single rocket fired that set off alarms and created 6x4x2 foot crater in the earth in response to 8 year old shot while kicking a soccer ball on the beach.
Your words: "Better to use that high tech weaponry from 200 yards then let that kitchen utensil get within arms length". Saying something is 'better' sounds like advocating to me....do you feel the same way about Canadian police forces? They should shoot to kill any time they deem someone a threat?
So explain which method of non-lethal force can be used at 200 yards? What ARE you advocating here?
Also, there is a difference between terrorism and extra-judicial assassination. Has there been examples of the PA assassinating israeli criminals without trial?
And not that it deserves a response, but I'll state again....I don't support violence in any situation outside of self defense. that doesn't mean I have zero understanding of how violence begets violence, and which side contributes more to the cycle.
Hamas carries out extra judicial assassinations on Palestinians all the time Take the numbers from any four of your sources add them and round up to the nearest thousand. Then I'll post.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The third... did the woman just stab someone (the title of the clip states so)? And is the woman refusing to drop the knife she just stabbed someone with?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3482712/American-tourist-stabbed-death-Israel-attack-Palestinian-Biden-starts-visit.html
An american tourist killed and many wounded. Read down to see the picture of the guy in the Tool shirt who hit the attacker over the head with his acoustic guitar.
I'm that obvious, eh? If so... I'm not the only one around here that is predictable.
If the woman did stab someone and was refusing to drop her knife and comply... then I don't feel too sorry for her. The victim of her knife attack likely wouldn't be feeling too sorry for her either.
I would say that there could have been better methods of disarming and subduing her; however, it at least appears the forces there tried to get her to stand down. Regardless, let's not debate how much patience is appropriate for such a scenario.
The first two videos make a compelling case for what you have argued very well to this point. The third, at least in my eyes, doesn't offer as much.
I was aware when I posted that there wouldn't be much sympathy for the attackers in these situations (again, I don't know the story of the girl in this video), but I just wanted to point out that the Israeli side isn't always the whole truth (or true at all), and that there is an ongoing issue with extra-judicial killings in the OPT, esp since the knife attacks began. Felt it was important enough to mention regardless of the victim's actions.
You've succeeded in doing that- even though any objective person sifting through this thread or any other material related to the conflict understands that Israel has serious credibility issues.
The knife planting incidents are brutal. These were caught on film. Not all incidents do get captured on film. How many more incidents have likely occurred? It also seems as if this tactic is secretively sanctioned: the men look polished in the act (the slick baton pass of the knife).
I still stand by my position with regards to the woman with the knife, but I should qualify my position by saying I also understand her motivation. Ultimately, she became a soldier. A really shitty situation.
US taxpayer: another day another dollar less federal income taxes
Israel: another day another $10,000,000 US taxpayer dollars