Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Right...because the populace is just a bunch of lemmings who can't possibly think for themselves. You don't live in their shoes and hence have zero understanding of why they voted the way they did. You have to believe that they fell for a lie because to accept that they rationally elected Netanyahu just will not compute.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Right...because the populace is just a bunch of lemmings who can't possibly think for themselves. You don't live in their shoes and hence of zero understanding of why they voted the way they did. You have to believe that they fell for a lie because to accept that they rationally elected Netanyahu just will not compute.
If they elected him rationally.....your right, it doesn't compute. Let's not forget the lies and fear he spouted off just days before the election.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Right...because the populace is just a bunch of lemmings who can't possibly think for themselves. You don't live in their shoes and hence of zero understanding of why they voted the way they did. You have to believe that they fell for a lie because to accept that they rationally elected Netanyahu just will not compute.
If they elected him rationally.....your right, it doesn't compute. Let's not forget the lies and fear he spouted off just days before the election.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
Right...because the populace is just a bunch of lemmings who can't possibly think for themselves. You don't live in their shoes and hence of zero understanding of why they voted the way they did. You have to believe that they fell for a lie because to accept that they rationally elected Netanyahu just will not compute.
If they elected him rationally.....your right, it doesn't compute. Let's not forget the lies and fear he spouted off just days before the election.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I am not really online much these days (waiting for a euro tour announcement so i checked in here), but i (mostly) read the last three pages and wanted to respond to a few things. I will say in advance that chances are I will not be around to read any of the backlash that this post causes, so don't bother :-) 1) jonnie blu (pretty sure it was him) posted a lengthy and intelligent rundown of the early history of the conflict and instead of actually responding to the stuff he said, the anti - israel faction cut him down because he did not cite sources. seriously? we are on a pj message board. the guy is not defending a thesis on the subject. I am a history teacher and i have plenty of things in my head on a WIDE variety of subjects (french revolution, early american history, midevil feudal system, industrial revolution - just to name a few) that i have learned throughout the years. I can write extremely lengthy explanations off the top of my head on any of these subjects, but there is no chance i could back it all up (without WAY too much effort) with citations. Same goes for the history of my own country. I don't remember all of what he wrote, but most of the stuff is pretty cut and dry. I am sure that any member of the anti-israel faction here actually knows these things, but prefer to ignore them.
2) WTF does the sinking of the USS liberty have to do with any of this? The US government accepted that this was a case of friendly fire, so why do you keep waving this incident in our faces? did you know one of the people killed there?
3) to the guy who was surprised that no one has assassinated Benjamin Netanyahu- one word - WOW! That's it. nothing else to say to you....
4) no where over the pages i have read did i see any mentioning of the fact that some nut jobs are stabbing people in the streets. i use the term "nut jobs" because i do not believe that the majority of arabs living here are in favour of these actions. the vast majority of the palestinian and arab israeli population understand that these attacks hurt them more than help them. I also refer to the jews committing "revenge" attacks as nut jobs. they should all be thrown in the same prison and have a last man standing competition.
On a serious note here, we have children committing terrorist attacks. 2 weeks ago two cousins (13 an 15) stabbed a 13 year old boy in jerusalem. there is surveillance footage of them holding knives and looking for a victim. yesterday two kids (11 and 14) stabbed a security guard on their way home from school. these kids are thought to hate from the second they are born. many of the attacks happened in cities that by no way are considered "occupied territories" (one attack was in a city called Rishon Le Zion. my parents live a 5 minute walk from where the attack took place. This city was established in 1882). do you really think that if israel goes back to the 1967 borders that the hate will dissapear and everything will be hunky dorry? if your answer is yes, bring some of what you are smoking to the euro tour this summer.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
"do you really think that if israel goes back to the 1967 borders that the hate will dissapear and everything will be hunky dorry?" No the hate on both sides will live long and deep. I dont think any here are or have suggested as much.
What could happen though is those settlers can be resettled within Israels borders. A lesson could be applied that was learned in South Africa and Rwanda , via truth and reconciliation commisions. Unless and until two groups of people can begin to see whats had in common more than differences, honestly admit its wrongs, none of this changes.
Are not the kids of both sides shown via the actions of the other side , as well as the narrative of their own communities, that the other are evil? How could you not hate in that environment?
Something has to give, in my veiw the palestinians have given enough.
This subject being such a contentious issue , source is important. Source can and often does have agenda attached. To be able to hear from both sides narrative, truth is in the middle. To flat refuse because " you antis wont believe it anyway" is a disservice and frankly insulting.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
1) jonnie blu (pretty sure it was him) posted a lengthy and intelligent rundown of the early history of the conflict and instead of actually responding to the stuff he said, the anti - israel faction cut him down because he did not cite sources. seriously? we are on a pj message board. the guy is not defending a thesis on the subject. I am a history teacher and i have plenty of things in my head on a WIDE variety of subjects (french revolution, early american history, midevil feudal system, industrial revolution - just to name a few) that i have learned throughout the years. I can write extremely lengthy explanations off the top of my head on any of these subjects, but there is no chance i could back it all up (without WAY too much effort) with citations. Same goes for the history of my own country. I don't remember all of what he wrote, but most of the stuff is pretty cut and dry. I am sure that any member of the anti-israel faction here actually knows these things, but prefer to ignore them.
2) WTF does the sinking of the USS liberty have to do with any of this? The US government accepted that this was a case of friendly fire, so why do you keep waving this incident in our faces? did you know one of the people killed there?
3) to the guy who was surprised that no one has assassinated Benjamin Netanyahu- one word - WOW! That's it. nothing else to say to you....
4) no where over the pages i have read did i see any mentioning of the fact that some nut jobs are stabbing people in the streets. i use the term "nut jobs" because i do not believe that the majority of arabs living here are in favour of these actions. the vast majority of the palestinian and arab israeli population understand that these attacks hurt them more than help them. I also refer to the jews committing "revenge" attacks as nut jobs. they should all be thrown in the same prison and have a last man standing competition.
On a serious note here, we have children committing terrorist attacks. 2 weeks ago two cousins (13 an 15) stabbed a 13 year old boy in jerusalem. there is surveillance footage of them holding knives and looking for a victim. yesterday two kids (11 and 14) stabbed a security guard on their way home from school. these kids are thought to hate from the second they are born. many of the attacks happened in cities that by no way are considered "occupied territories" (one attack was in a city called Rishon Le Zion. my parents live a 5 minute walk from where the attack took place. This city was established in 1882). do you really think that if israel goes back to the 1967 borders that the hate will dissapear and everything will be hunky dorry? if your answer is yes, bring some of what you are smoking to the euro tour this summer.
1. He posted info that was a direct copy from at least two books, and some passages form the jewishvirtuallibrary....these are just the ones I found in a few minutes of googling - AFTER he claimed it was all from his head. We've already covered why it's important to include your sources...there is no way that info was from his head, and if it wasn't, showing that he lied about it says something about the validity and sincerity of his posts. Period. YOu don't think so, fine...but obviously there are people here who feel the same as I do. You say he's not defending a thesis, but that is basically what he is demanding we do...not that it was his thesis. Sorry, but as I said cleary in the pages you read, I"m not spending the time to do that. I can copy/paste some links refuting some of his claims, or at least giving some context to them, but I'm not in a hurry. Showing people that he is not above lying to 'prove' his claims will have to suffice for now. I don't see you asking him for the follow up he said he'd give me over a week ago. I wasn't going to bother, myself. We have lives, whatever. You said yourself you're not here much.
2. There is overwhelming evidence that the Liberty was not a friendly fire incident. The lengths the US will go to to protect isreal - the fact that the US is willing to cover up the death of their own servicemen, is exactly why this is constantly brought up. It shows just how fucked up the relationship between the two nations is. Why do we bring up any historical incident? To set the grounds for our opinions on the present. Pretty simple.
3. whatever. pjsoul has repeatedly said that she doesn't take sides in regards to the occupation. It was poorly worded, but in the big picture of this debate, considering her neutrality, it is pretty inconsequential, and shouldn't be used to discredit people who openly defend the Palestinian position.
4. I agree with you that both the knife attacks and the revenge attacks are reprehensible. But what do you consider revenge attacks? Citizen violence only, or do you also condemn the actions of the IDF in response? I have an issue with the pro-Israel side consistently using this as their current justification for violence. As always, the body count comparison is overwhelmingly Palestinian dead since these attacks began. The response to the knife attacks has been typically disproportionate. Not one person has mentioned the 17 year old woman who was shot at a checkpoint because officers claimed she had a knife (she didnt'). No one has mentioned the footage of the palestinian man being beaten by IDF soldiers who were yelling to their fellow thugs to get them a knife before realizing there were recording devices within earshot....I haven't posted these videos - like I said before, posting videos and stories about individual attacks could fill this thread day in and day out. I'm not interested in a game of one-upmanship over innocents being murdered. these attacks are being used by the IDF and the Israeli government as political means to justify more murder of innocents - there is no justice in that approach, and you are perpetuating it.
Your last paragraph....more dehumanization of Palestinians.....' these kids are thought to hate from the second they are born'....I see this all the time, all over the internet, from Israel's supporters. The inference is that Palestinians love their children less than other peoples do, and do less to keep them safe - preferring violence to peace...sentences like yours are usually followed by calling palestinians savages or whatever else. Thanks for sparing us the next step. Again, I could find a thousand videos of hateful Israelis and make statements about 'these kids'....but it does nothing to further the discussion and would be dishonest in it's portrayal of WHY 'these kids' hate.
No one ever claims the violence would end if Israel fell back to the 67 borders. No one. So why do you ask that question? I'll answer for you - to portray Israel as victims. When you comment that there are indeed occupied territories (these days, and in comparison to JBB's positions, you seem moderate by admitting that, which is scary), and that there are acts of Isreali violence toward Palestinians committed in those territories (by settlers and the state), then why should anyone be shocked that there are acts of violence occurring against Israelis in Israel proper? Again - victim baiting. All of the innocent dead are victims....some are more innocent than others. But in the big picture, Israel has a continually declining ability to claim their entire nation is being victimized. When you compare the same claim by the Palestinians, who have yet to achieve any kind of measurable sovereignty decades after the creation of Israel, it's not even worth discussing who the victims and aggressors are.
shouldn't all consumers everywhere be able to decide where they want their money going to? How exactly is that antisemetic as the energy minister claims?
For me personally , I'd rather my tax dollars did not go in part to the state of Israel and make me a party to the abhorrant behavoir towards innocents.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Except the EU hasn't imposed the same labeling regime with respect to other occupied territories, which begs the question why Israel is being singled out and belies the claim that the EU's action is an impartial action. And the labeling applies equally to items from the Golan heights, which is more than a bit absurd because the Golan has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there is no possible way Israel could withdraw from the Golan at the moment given the chaos in Syria, and yet the EU has offered no explanation of how Israel could get the labeling lifted for Golan products short of unilaterally abandoning the area to become one more battlefront in the Syrian civil war. Moreover, if the intent is to aid the Palestinians, it bears mentioning that the products subject to these labels account for only about 1% of Israeli exports to Europe, but are much more significant to the Palestinian economy in the west bank, since the workforce actually producing these goods is largely Palestinian.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Well it's been a while since I visited this cesspool of a thread, so I decided to check back in. Most of the information I wrote about and the direct quotes came from a book called "Myths and Facts" by Mitchell Bard. It seems the author are also connected the website Jewish Virtual Library. I'm sure the attacks will now shift from my character to his character and background. The book has extensive footnotes and I have yet to hear a single refutation of a single thing I wrote in in my post other than to attack my personal character and to demand citations. So there you have it. Most of it was written from my personal knowledge and reading with quotes supplemented from his extensively researched and footnoted book.
Now as promised, my reply to the absurd link between Zionism and Nazism.
First, a clarifying point. I would agree that the Zionist project was begun long before the Nazis came to power. Jews tried returning to the land of Israel over the course of centuries. Herzl, a secular Jews, was motivated by pogroms against Jews in Eastern Europe and by western European Jew hatred manifested by the Dreyfus affair. The point is that Jews yearned for centuries to return to Zion. Israel was not created simply because the Holocaust was inflicted on European Jewry by the Nazis and their sympathizers in places such as Poland and the Ukraine. Zionism is not grounded in the Holocaust. It’s ground in the fact that the land of Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, that the international community recognized the historic connection of the Jewish people with the land of Palestine, and that Jews fought and died in wars instigated by their Arab neighbors to win their independence in this land. It is ironic that the Arabs refuse to recognize Israel as the permanent national Jewish homeland, but they want to yet another Arab state in the Middle East. It is telling that Abbas says that the occupation began in 1948, not in 1967.
As for leaders in the Yishuv during World War II, they had severe problems to deal with, primarily Arab terror and hostility from pro-Arabs in the British mandatory authority. The Yishuv leadership did not have an army that could have fought the Nazis if Rommel not been turned back at El-Alamein in North Africa in the summer of 1942.
But the notion that the Zionist leadership “had common cause” with the Nazis, “collaborated” in the systematic killing of 6 million Jews or were indifferent to their fate, is both false and disgusting. They may have felt powerless to fight the Nazi war machine, and had urgent problems dealing with Arabs who they knew wanted to annihilate them. But none of them were simply indifferent to the murder of their fellow Jews. There were debates over whether to devote limited resources available to try to save Jews in Europe or to try to defend Jews in the land of Israel, especially in the war with Arabs that would likely come—these were gut-wrenching issues, to be sure. Does anyone really think that there were Jewish leaders anywhere who were encouraging Jewish slave labor, mass shootings of Jews, the burning of Jews inside synagogues, mass deportation of Jews, the gassing of Jews, and burning them in the crematoria? No legitimate historian will say that.
As for the Mufti, Haj Amin al Husseini, no historian doubts that he was a guest of the Nazis in Berlin during World War II, that he met with Hitler on November 28, 1941, and with von Ribbentrop, and other Nazi leaders, and that he encouraged the Nazis to implement the Final Solution in Palestine as well upon what he hoped would be their conquest of Palestine. Netanyahu was wrong when he said Hitler wanted to expel Jews from Europe and the Mufti said burn them. The Nazis didn’t need the Mufti to give them any ideas. But the Mufti was instrumental in fomenting the Arab Revolt of 1936-39, which led to the violent deaths of large numbers of Jews in Mandatory Palestine, and which moved the British to issue the White Paper in 1939 which severely restricted Jewish entry into Mandatory Palestine. The Mufti recruited Bosnian Muslims to fight the Allies in WWII, and from Berlin he spewed forth Jew hatred by radio with the best of them. There is no doubt that he was an ally of the Nazis during World War II, and he was not their ally at the behest of any Zionists, Jewish or non-Jewish. As professor Jeffrey Herf, who spent much time studying the activities of the Mufti, wrote the following about the Mufti in the Times of Israel within the past month:
"He did incite others to murder Jews. He did spread ridiculous conspiracy theories comparable to those of the Nazis. He did all that he could to help the Nazis in a failing effort to spread the Holocaust to the Middle East and to win the war in Europe. He left behind a legacy of hatred, paranoia, religious fanaticism and celebration of terror so long as it was aimed at Jews and Israelis. The Palestinian authority and Hamas even more so has kept that legacy is alive and well and fills the heads of Palestinian teenagers with rubbish that has led to the terror wave of recent weeks."
I appreciate your description of the purposeful and deliberate attack on the USS Liberty that resulted in the deaths of 39 US service members and the injuring of 139 more as "nonsense." Coming a day after Veterns Day is especially abhorrent. With friends like Israel, to the tune of $3.4 BB a year, who needs enemies?
I appreciate your description of the purposeful and deliberate attack on the USS Liberty that resulted in the deaths of 39 US service members and the injuring of 139 more as "nonsense." Coming a day after Veterns Day is especially abhorrent. With friends like Israel, to the tune of $3.4 BB a year, who needs enemies?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Apparently those who don't participate in the "boycott" are a target.
Your 2015 BDS movement ladies and gentlemen...
except THEY werent targeted specifically now were they.
Mickey, It's a singular agenda where facts are irrelevant.
I know, posting guidelines prevent me from typing what I really want to. Thats alright though, restraint of tongue and pen is suggested in AA. Nowadays restraint of tongue and send/post is more appropo
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Apparently those who don't participate in the "boycott" are a target.
Your 2015 BDS movement ladies and gentlemen...
except THEY werent targeted specifically now were they.
Mickey, It's a singular agenda where facts are irrelevant.
I know, posting guidelines prevent me from typing what I really want to. Thats alright though, restraint of tongue and pen is suggested in AA. Nowadays restraint of tongue and send/post is more appropo
Well, this thread is a cesspool after all per our resident scholar with the "truth" regarding the history of Israel and it's war crimes. But I digress. Israel is the master of propaganda and deception. They learned from Goebbels and well. And Cheney/bush learned well from them, I might add.
Go back 5 yrs and list all the bands or performences held at that venue that were also performed in Israel.
The question posed at the header is a valid one. Given that ISIS has claimed responsibility and hasn't taken up the palestinians cause for the palestinian people , I would say its a stretch.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Go back 5 yrs and list all the bands or performences held at that venue that were also performed in Israel.
The question posed at the header is a valid one. Given that ISIS has claimed responsibility and hasn't taken up the palestinians cause for the palestinian people , I would say its a stretch.
ISIS wants the death of all jews everywhere and wants to see the destruction of Israel. Open your eyes.
Apparently those who don't participate in the "boycott" are a target.
Your 2015 BDS movement ladies and gentlemen...
except THEY werent targeted specifically now were they.
Mickey, It's a singular agenda where facts are irrelevant.
I know, posting guidelines prevent me from typing what I really want to. Thats alright though, restraint of tongue and pen is suggested in AA. Nowadays restraint of tongue and send/post is more appropo
Well, this thread is a cesspool after all per our resident scholar with the "truth" regarding the history of Israel and it's war crimes. But I digress. Israel is the master of propaganda and deception. They learned from Goebbels and well. And Cheney/bush learned well from them, I might add.
As usual for you, no response for days to any of the substance of my post. But you keep on making parallels between the only democracy in the middle east and the most despicable regime to ever walk this earth. Nice.
So, you asked for which parts of your "from your head" statements are not factual. I've found sources that would disagree with much of what you posted. You belittled posters for requesting that you site your sources and after claiming "it came from your head," mentioned your source as "mostly" coming from a book "Myths and Facts" by Mitchell Bard and as mentioning, almost casually, a casual link to Mr. Bard and the website Jewish Virtual Library. However, you failed to mention that Mr. Bard is the Director of the Jewish Virtual Library and the Executive Director of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise, whose mission statement states: AICE's goals are enhancing the understanding and appreciation of Israel through social and educational programs in the United States, disseminating information about Israel; aiding efforts of students and faculty attempting to counteract anti-Zionist rhetoric and activities; promoting the study of Israel’s political system, culture, and society; and developing American universities’ appreciation of Israel as a subject worthy of serious attention.[9] AICE's goals also include highlighting areas where Israel might contribute to the betterment of America, and publishing studies to identify specific programs and approaches that can benefit Americans. Its mission statement is:
Knowing where or who your sources come from when debating allows those that disagree with you the opportunity to check the information that you're posting to be factual and to see the fuller context of the information provided. It appears to me having researched your posts that you have cherry picked the most advantageous information that fits and supports your narrative. Some examples: You said, "there has never been a nation called Palestine. Ever."
The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years).
The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
“The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.”
More on Canaanite civilization
“Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
Comments
http://time.com/3749912/benjamin-netanyahu/
Benjamin Netanyahu’s Disgrace in Victory
Remember, Bush was a full term president. Voters aren't always rational.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/israeli-forces-settlers-besiege-hebron-151107143253431.html
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
1) jonnie blu (pretty sure it was him) posted a lengthy and intelligent rundown of the early history of the conflict and instead of actually responding to the stuff he said, the anti - israel faction cut him down because he did not cite sources. seriously? we are on a pj message board. the guy is not defending a thesis on the subject. I am a history teacher and i have plenty of things in my head on a WIDE variety of subjects (french revolution, early american history, midevil feudal system, industrial revolution - just to name a few) that i have learned throughout the years. I can write extremely lengthy explanations off the top of my head on any of these subjects, but there is no chance i could back it all up (without WAY too much effort) with citations. Same goes for the history of my own country. I don't remember all of what he wrote, but most of the stuff is pretty cut and dry. I am sure that any member of the anti-israel faction here actually knows these things, but prefer to ignore them.
2) WTF does the sinking of the USS liberty have to do with any of this? The US government accepted that this was a case of friendly fire, so why do you keep waving this incident in our faces? did you know one of the people killed there?
3) to the guy who was surprised that no one has assassinated Benjamin Netanyahu- one word - WOW! That's it. nothing else to say to you....
4) no where over the pages i have read did i see any mentioning of the fact that some nut jobs are stabbing people in the streets. i use the term "nut jobs" because i do not believe that the majority of arabs living here are in favour of these actions. the vast majority of the palestinian and arab israeli population understand that these attacks hurt them more than help them. I also refer to the jews committing "revenge" attacks as nut jobs. they should all be thrown in the same prison and have a last man standing competition.
On a serious note here, we have children committing terrorist attacks. 2 weeks ago two cousins (13 an 15) stabbed a 13 year old boy in jerusalem. there is surveillance footage of them holding knives and looking for a victim. yesterday two kids (11 and 14) stabbed a security guard on their way home from school. these kids are thought to hate from the second they are born. many of the attacks happened in cities that by no way are considered "occupied territories" (one attack was in a city called Rishon Le Zion. my parents live a 5 minute walk from where the attack took place. This city was established in 1882). do you really think that if israel goes back to the 1967 borders that the hate will dissapear and everything will be hunky dorry? if your answer is yes, bring some of what you are smoking to the euro tour this summer.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
No the hate on both sides will live long and deep. I dont think any here are or have suggested as much.
What could happen though is those settlers can be resettled within Israels borders. A lesson could be applied that was learned in South Africa and Rwanda , via truth and reconciliation commisions. Unless and until two groups of people can begin to see whats had in common more than differences, honestly admit its wrongs, none of this changes.
Are not the kids of both sides shown via the actions of the other side , as well as the narrative of their own communities, that the other are evil?
How could you not hate in that environment?
Something has to give, in my veiw the palestinians have given enough.
This subject being such a contentious issue , source is important. Source can and often does have agenda attached. To be able to hear from both sides narrative, truth is in the middle. To flat refuse because " you antis wont believe it anyway" is a disservice and frankly insulting.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
2. There is overwhelming evidence that the Liberty was not a friendly fire incident. The lengths the US will go to to protect isreal - the fact that the US is willing to cover up the death of their own servicemen, is exactly why this is constantly brought up. It shows just how fucked up the relationship between the two nations is. Why do we bring up any historical incident? To set the grounds for our opinions on the present. Pretty simple.
3. whatever. pjsoul has repeatedly said that she doesn't take sides in regards to the occupation. It was poorly worded, but in the big picture of this debate, considering her neutrality, it is pretty inconsequential, and shouldn't be used to discredit people who openly defend the Palestinian position.
4. I agree with you that both the knife attacks and the revenge attacks are reprehensible. But what do you consider revenge attacks? Citizen violence only, or do you also condemn the actions of the IDF in response? I have an issue with the pro-Israel side consistently using this as their current justification for violence. As always, the body count comparison is overwhelmingly Palestinian dead since these attacks began. The response to the knife attacks has been typically disproportionate. Not one person has mentioned the 17 year old woman who was shot at a checkpoint because officers claimed she had a knife (she didnt'). No one has mentioned the footage of the palestinian man being beaten by IDF soldiers who were yelling to their fellow thugs to get them a knife before realizing there were recording devices within earshot....I haven't posted these videos - like I said before, posting videos and stories about individual attacks could fill this thread day in and day out. I'm not interested in a game of one-upmanship over innocents being murdered. these attacks are being used by the IDF and the Israeli government as political means to justify more murder of innocents - there is no justice in that approach, and you are perpetuating it.
Your last paragraph....more dehumanization of Palestinians.....' these kids are thought to hate from the second they are born'....I see this all the time, all over the internet, from Israel's supporters. The inference is that Palestinians love their children less than other peoples do, and do less to keep them safe - preferring violence to peace...sentences like yours are usually followed by calling palestinians savages or whatever else. Thanks for sparing us the next step. Again, I could find a thousand videos of hateful Israelis and make statements about 'these kids'....but it does nothing to further the discussion and would be dishonest in it's portrayal of WHY 'these kids' hate.
No one ever claims the violence would end if Israel fell back to the 67 borders. No one. So why do you ask that question? I'll answer for you - to portray Israel as victims. When you comment that there are indeed occupied territories (these days, and in comparison to JBB's positions, you seem moderate by admitting that, which is scary), and that there are acts of Isreali violence toward Palestinians committed in those territories (by settlers and the state), then why should anyone be shocked that there are acts of violence occurring against Israelis in Israel proper? Again - victim baiting. All of the innocent dead are victims....some are more innocent than others. But in the big picture, Israel has a continually declining ability to claim their entire nation is being victimized. When you compare the same claim by the Palestinians, who have yet to achieve any kind of measurable sovereignty decades after the creation of Israel, it's not even worth discussing who the victims and aggressors are.
For me personally , I'd rather my tax dollars did not go in part to the state of Israel and make me a party to the abhorrant behavoir towards innocents.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/israeli-anger-eu-agrees-label-settlement-products-150920100028754.html
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
First, a clarifying point. I would agree that the Zionist project was begun long before the Nazis came to power. Jews tried returning to the land of Israel over the course of centuries. Herzl, a secular Jews, was motivated by pogroms against Jews in Eastern Europe and by western European Jew hatred manifested by the Dreyfus affair. The point is that Jews yearned for centuries to return to Zion. Israel was not created simply because the Holocaust was inflicted on European Jewry by the Nazis and their sympathizers in places such as Poland and the Ukraine. Zionism is not grounded in the Holocaust. It’s ground in the fact that the land of Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, that the international community recognized the historic connection of the Jewish people with the land of Palestine, and that Jews fought and died in wars instigated by their Arab neighbors to win their independence in this land. It is ironic that the Arabs refuse to recognize Israel as the permanent national Jewish homeland, but they want to yet another Arab state in the Middle East. It is telling that Abbas says that the occupation began in 1948, not in 1967.
As for leaders in the Yishuv during World War II, they had severe problems to deal with, primarily Arab terror and hostility from pro-Arabs in the British mandatory authority. The Yishuv leadership did not have an army that could have fought the Nazis if Rommel not been turned back at El-Alamein in North Africa in the summer of 1942.
But the notion that the Zionist leadership “had common cause” with the Nazis, “collaborated” in the systematic killing of 6 million Jews or were indifferent to their fate, is both false and disgusting. They may have felt powerless to fight the Nazi war machine, and had urgent problems dealing with Arabs who they knew wanted to annihilate them. But none of them were simply indifferent to the murder of their fellow Jews. There were debates over whether to devote limited resources available to try to save Jews in Europe or to try to defend Jews in the land of Israel, especially in the war with Arabs that would likely come—these were gut-wrenching issues, to be sure. Does anyone really think that there were Jewish leaders anywhere who were encouraging Jewish slave labor, mass shootings of Jews, the burning of Jews inside synagogues, mass deportation of Jews, the gassing of Jews, and burning them in the crematoria? No legitimate historian will say that.
As for the Mufti, Haj Amin al Husseini, no historian doubts that he was a guest of the Nazis in Berlin during World War II, that he met with Hitler on November 28, 1941, and with von Ribbentrop, and other Nazi leaders, and that he encouraged the Nazis to implement the Final Solution in Palestine as well upon what he hoped would be their conquest of Palestine. Netanyahu was wrong when he said Hitler wanted to expel Jews from Europe and the Mufti said burn them. The Nazis didn’t need the Mufti to give them any ideas. But the Mufti was instrumental in fomenting the Arab Revolt of 1936-39, which led to the violent deaths of large numbers of Jews in Mandatory Palestine, and which moved the British to issue the White Paper in 1939 which severely restricted Jewish entry into Mandatory Palestine. The Mufti recruited Bosnian Muslims to fight the Allies in WWII, and from Berlin he spewed forth Jew hatred by radio with the best of them. There is no doubt that he was an ally of the Nazis during World War II, and he was not their ally at the behest of any Zionists, Jewish or non-Jewish. As professor Jeffrey Herf, who spent much time studying the activities of the Mufti, wrote the following about the Mufti in the Times of Israel within the past month:
"He did incite others to murder Jews. He did spread ridiculous conspiracy theories comparable to those of the Nazis. He did all that he could to help the Nazis in a failing effort to spread the Holocaust to the Middle East and to win the war in Europe. He left behind a legacy of hatred, paranoia, religious fanaticism and celebration of terror so long as it was aimed at Jews and Israelis. The Palestinian authority and Hamas even more so has kept that legacy is alive and well and fills the heads of Palestinian teenagers with rubbish that has led to the terror wave of recent weeks."
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/french-mag-bataclan-an-islamist-target-due-to-jewish-owners/
Apparently those who don't participate in the "boycott" are a target.
Your 2015 BDS movement ladies and gentlemen...
http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Culture/Concert-review-The-Eagles-of-Death-Metal-408838#article=6020RDIxNkZEQjk4RDIwQ0RCQTY2RjhCRjBBMDNEMTBBM0M=
Jesse Hughs had two words for Roger Waters.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
http://www.i24news.tv/en/mobile#content/92438
Now let's see some of that dixie chick outrage...
The question posed at the header is a valid one. Given that ISIS has claimed responsibility and hasn't taken up the palestinians cause for the palestinian people , I would say its a stretch.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American–Israeli_Cooperative_Enterprise
Knowing where or who your sources come from when debating allows those that disagree with you the opportunity to check the information that you're posting to be factual and to see the fuller context of the information provided. It appears to me having researched your posts that you have cherry picked the most advantageous information that fits and supports your narrative. Some examples: You said, "there has never been a nation called Palestine. Ever."
The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years).
The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine
“The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.”
More on Canaanite civilization
“Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Continued
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©