history is written by the powerful and it is written by the winners. that is why we never get the palestinian view of anything in the media. and when we do get the palestinian side of the story, it is dismissed as propaganda by the israel apologists.
I am a novice on this subject compared to you...I have tried to research it,but it is so incredibly complicated, not to mention differentiating fact from partisan fiction.....however, do you feel the Palestinian people/leaders' hands are clean in this conflict? Can we excuse everything they've done as simply "reasonable self defence"? Is the US on the Israeli side for no other reason than their Jewish population and/or prejudice of the Arabian people? I know that may sound simplistic, just trying to get a handle on it and wondering why the rest of the world sees Israel as the evildoers and the US is the opposite.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Damn shame the tImes doesnt present something of the same sort in reference to settler on occupied Palestinians violence. Like say that family that was burned alive in the dark of night?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
history is written by the powerful and it is written by the winners. that is why we never get the palestinian view of anything in the media. and when we do get the palestinian side of the story, it is dismissed as propaganda by the israel apologists.
I am a novice on this subject compared to you...I have tried to research it,but it is so incredibly complicated, not to mention differentiating fact from partisan fiction.....however, do you feel the Palestinian people/leaders' hands are clean in this conflict? Can we excuse everything they've done as simply "reasonable self defence"? Is the US on the Israeli side for no other reason than their Jewish population and/or prejudice of the Arabian people? I know that may sound simplistic, just trying to get a handle on it and wondering why the rest of the world sees Israel as the evildoers and the US is the opposite.
no, it is not a complicated issue. people (not you by the way) that don't know a lot about the conflict try to inflate it and make it seem all complicated. it is not complicated at all. it boils down to one issue.
the issue is, you have one country that has been stealing land since 1967, in direct violation or international law. they have been displacing the rightful owners of the land, bulldozing their homes, burning their olive groves, depriving them water, building materials, and basic human dignity. they have killed aid workers like rachel corrie. on the land they acquire, they build jewish only settlements for hardcore, ultra right wing settlers. these people hate arabs and view arabs as below them. the presence of these settlers inflames and angers the arabs living just outside these areas. these settlers have kept the arabs from going to holy sites to pray. these settlements are in direct violation of international law as well. this country has imposed a blockade of the land and the sea. this country has killed people on boats who have tried to break the blockade to deliver medicine and building materials. this country has been sanctioned by the UN on multiple occasions, only to have it vetoed, most often by the united states. everything i have stated has been posted on here dozens of times. when you look at it as purely a humanitarian issue, one country is guilty. when you look at it in the eyes of international law, one country is guilty. so you see, it is a very simple issue.
the palestinan leaders do not have clean hands. they have the incredible task of trying to keep their people in line while the occupation continues and it expands. the palestinians have lost faith in the international community. they have lost hope. and what happens when a people lose hope? they act out the way some of the palestinians have done. they fire rockets. they throw stones at settlers. they commit suicide by idf. these people have lost hope and the vast majority of the attacks are in direct result of the occupation. they fire rockets because they know that israel will respond with overwhelming force, and that use of force will become a world wide front page story. at this point, i think that is the only strategy they have. the longer they can keep the conflict in the news, the harder it is for the rest of the world, especially americans to ignore. the palestinan attacks are a symptom of the occupation, not the cause of it.
the rest of the world sees the israeli government as criminal. the americans give them billions of dollars a year in military aid. americans do this because they need a friendly foothold in the region. at some point, america will be unable to excuse and defend the occupation any longer.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
It's a shame those with expertise on the Palestinian perspective have all been banned...
it is not just here. it happens on forums all over the web.
I think it's because the big turd of this conflict is starting to be inedible on the rest of the public. No one gives a fuck about this conflict and if they do it's because they are a politician.
It's a shame those with expertise on the Palestinian perspective have all been banned...
it is not just here. it happens on forums all over the web.
I think it's because the big turd of this conflict is starting to be inedible on the rest of the public. No one gives a fuck about this conflict and if they do it's because they are a politician.
edit - No one cares about this shit
since when does everyone else think the way you do?
you don't give a shit. a lot of people do.
if you don't care, why do you read the thread and then bump it for no other reason than to voice the fact that you don't care?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
A very interesting interview with George Deek, a Christian Arab Israeli diplomat. He has a unique perspective, and really speaks to many of the subtleties and complexities of the Israeli state and the Israeli-Arab conflict. I'm sure you'll all hate it.
history is written by the powerful and it is written by the winners. that is why we never get the palestinian view of anything in the media. and when we do get the palestinian side of the story, it is dismissed as propaganda by the israel apologists.
I am a novice on this subject compared to you...I have tried to research it,but it is so incredibly complicated, not to mention differentiating fact from partisan fiction.....however, do you feel the Palestinian people/leaders' hands are clean in this conflict? Can we excuse everything they've done as simply "reasonable self defence"? Is the US on the Israeli side for no other reason than their Jewish population and/or prejudice of the Arabian people? I know that may sound simplistic, just trying to get a handle on it and wondering why the rest of the world sees Israel as the evildoers and the US is the opposite.
no, it is not a complicated issue. people (not you by the way) that don't know a lot about the conflict try to inflate it and make it seem all complicated. it is not complicated at all. it boils down to one issue.
the issue is, you have one country that has been stealing land since 1967, in direct violation or international law. they have been displacing the rightful owners of the land, bulldozing their homes, burning their olive groves, depriving them water, building materials, and basic human dignity. they have killed aid workers like rachel corrie. on the land they acquire, they build jewish only settlements for hardcore, ultra right wing settlers. these people hate arabs and view arabs as below them. the presence of these settlers inflames and angers the arabs living just outside these areas. these settlers have kept the arabs from going to holy sites to pray. these settlements are in direct violation of international law as well. this country has imposed a blockade of the land and the sea. this country has killed people on boats who have tried to break the blockade to deliver medicine and building materials. this country has been sanctioned by the UN on multiple occasions, only to have it vetoed, most often by the united states. everything i have stated has been posted on here dozens of times. when you look at it as purely a humanitarian issue, one country is guilty. when you look at it in the eyes of international law, one country is guilty. so you see, it is a very simple issue.
the palestinan leaders do not have clean hands. they have the incredible task of trying to keep their people in line while the occupation continues and it expands. the palestinians have lost faith in the international community. they have lost hope. and what happens when a people lose hope? they act out the way some of the palestinians have done. they fire rockets. they throw stones at settlers. they commit suicide by idf. these people have lost hope and the vast majority of the attacks are in direct result of the occupation. they fire rockets because they know that israel will respond with overwhelming force, and that use of force will become a world wide front page story. at this point, i think that is the only strategy they have. the longer they can keep the conflict in the news, the harder it is for the rest of the world, especially americans to ignore. the palestinan attacks are a symptom of the occupation, not the cause of it.
the rest of the world sees the israeli government as criminal. the americans give them billions of dollars a year in military aid. americans do this because they need a friendly foothold in the region. at some point, america will be unable to excuse and defend the occupation any longer.
ok, I do understand the post-1967 border issue. however, who is to know who is historically the true owner of the land? from everything I've read, both sides have a reasonable claim to it.
sorry if I'm making you rehash things that have been said here, gimme. I'm currently in over my head on this one, just trying to keep afloat! LOL
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It's a shame those with expertise on the Palestinian perspective have all been banned...
it is not just here. it happens on forums all over the web.
I think it's because the big turd of this conflict is starting to be inedible on the rest of the public. No one gives a fuck about this conflict and if they do it's because they are a politician.
edit - No one cares about this shit
since when does everyone else think the way you do?
you don't give a shit. a lot of people do.
if you don't care, why do you read the thread and then bump it for no other reason than to voice the fact that you don't care?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think religion has a fair bit to do with the mindset that's embedded, both with the leaders and the citizens on both sides. It's not the only thing it's about. But it's definitely a factor.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
Why is the right wing culture in Israel "Jewish"? The Israeli right is by no means animated solely by religion, and many on the right are thoroughly secular and have made common cause with the religious right for purely political purposes. Moreover, there are many religious Jews on the Israeli left, and many more secular Israeli left wingers who draw inspiration from Jewish texts and tradition (a particularly popular reference in this regard is the biblical command not to mistreat the strangers among us because we ourselves were slaves in Egypt). The point being that while religion is clearly at play in the conflict, it is not the root cause.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Hillary appears to be taking a pretty vocal stand in support of Israel during the current wave of violence. This appears to be in opposition to where the base of her party is right now.
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I dunno, what the hell is wrong with you? I was not advocating it, and I said so. I meant it. There is nothing wrong with what I said. I didn't mean it's smart to assassinate someone, though you're right, that wasn't clarified. So to clarify, I meant smarter people would see how harmful the guy is. Anyone who knows me here knows that I do not support violence.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Heh. Yeah, well.... Netanyahu doesn't have the world's best interests in mind, nor the best interests of the Israeli people. Clearly. I'm surprised some smart Israeli hasn't assassinated him by now (not that I'm advocating it). The Israeli people must be quite brainwashed at this point or something, because it seems like they don't really like him, but keep standing behind him anyway. I suppose out of fear? Same reason Americans reelected Bush I figure... People don't like to change leaders during a war (because their leader convinces them that they need him).
Like the smart Israeli who assassinated Rabin? What the hell is wrong with you? A "not that I'm advocating it" in parentheses absolves you of nothing.
I'd tend to agree with BS. A desire to assassinate says only negative about the intellect of a human being, and I personally think only an apathetic person would say otherwise.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
You and I disagree on the politics but what you wrote is so obvious that it is amazing it had to actually be written.
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death too. You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
they had the chance to speak up, but they re-elected him when they had the chance to make a change.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
-EV 8/14/93
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/opinion/the-facebook-intifada.html?_r=0&referer=http://www.powerlineblog.com/
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
the issue is, you have one country that has been stealing land since 1967, in direct violation or international law. they have been displacing the rightful owners of the land, bulldozing their homes, burning their olive groves, depriving them water, building materials, and basic human dignity. they have killed aid workers like rachel corrie. on the land they acquire, they build jewish only settlements for hardcore, ultra right wing settlers. these people hate arabs and view arabs as below them. the presence of these settlers inflames and angers the arabs living just outside these areas. these settlers have kept the arabs from going to holy sites to pray. these settlements are in direct violation of international law as well. this country has imposed a blockade of the land and the sea. this country has killed people on boats who have tried to break the blockade to deliver medicine and building materials. this country has been sanctioned by the UN on multiple occasions, only to have it vetoed, most often by the united states. everything i have stated has been posted on here dozens of times. when you look at it as purely a humanitarian issue, one country is guilty. when you look at it in the eyes of international law, one country is guilty. so you see, it is a very simple issue.
the palestinan leaders do not have clean hands. they have the incredible task of trying to keep their people in line while the occupation continues and it expands. the palestinians have lost faith in the international community. they have lost hope. and what happens when a people lose hope? they act out the way some of the palestinians have done. they fire rockets. they throw stones at settlers. they commit suicide by idf. these people have lost hope and the vast majority of the attacks are in direct result of the occupation. they fire rockets because they know that israel will respond with overwhelming force, and that use of force will become a world wide front page story. at this point, i think that is the only strategy they have. the longer they can keep the conflict in the news, the harder it is for the rest of the world, especially americans to ignore. the palestinan attacks are a symptom of the occupation, not the cause of it.
the rest of the world sees the israeli government as criminal. the americans give them billions of dollars a year in military aid. americans do this because they need a friendly foothold in the region. at some point, america will be unable to excuse and defend the occupation any longer.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
No one gives a fuck about this conflict and if they do it's because they are a politician.
edit - No one cares about this shit
you don't give a shit. a lot of people do.
if you don't care, why do you read the thread and then bump it for no other reason than to voice the fact that you don't care?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
sorry if I'm making you rehash things that have been said here, gimme. I'm currently in over my head on this one, just trying to keep afloat! LOL
-EV 8/14/93
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
-EV 8/14/93
Ha
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.639193?v=1C9BE9D437E8DBADDD744CAAD535F94B
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'd love to see Israelis speak up against Netanyahu in ways that don't involve his death: given that his campaign is built on a foundation of the necessity of fear and paranoia, his death would only serve to prove everything he's fighting for, and would be seen as validation of his cause by the ever-powerful right wing Jewish culture in Israel. How about an impeachment, re-election, and having him tried by the International Criminal Court as a war criminal? Any or all of those seem preferable to the "smart Israeli's assassination attempt" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean).
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://forward.com/opinion/national/324013/how-i-would-rebuild-ties-to-israel-and-benjamin-neta/#ixzz3qZwn10R9
I was not advocating it, and I said so. I meant it. There is nothing wrong with what I said. I didn't mean it's smart to assassinate someone, though you're right, that wasn't clarified. So to clarify, I meant smarter people would see how harmful the guy is.
Anyone who knows me here knows that I do not support violence.
You know, saying that I'm surprised something hasn't happened doesn't mean I want it to happen. My post was poorly written, but surely you guys knew that I would never actually say what you thought I was saying.
he played on their fears by saying that "arabs are showing up at the polls in droves, vote for me if you want to be protected". and they fell for it.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."