I go there every year for a conference. It's a fun place, but I agree with you for a lot of reasons (including the immense strain on the environment).
I haven't been there in ages - husband's been not-so-subtly hinting (OK, he's come right out and said it!) that he wants to visit there at least once in his life. Last time I was there it was sensory overload but I'm willing to give it another short go.
But yes, I guess the revenue there exceeds the cost of the energy of the lights alone.
And given that one of my company's offices is there, its investment in land, plus our hundreds of tenants...I do hope the city itself ultimately succeeds in many ways.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
turfterminators.com!
Just saw a commercial on a local channel...great concept, but almost seems too good be true.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Just saw a commercial on a local channel...great concept, but almost seems too good be true.
Very cool. These are smart people- and I might add smart business people. They are probably doing a brisk business! And the technical word for what they do is a great word: xeriscaping.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I hope they are, B.
The thread title has had Radiohead in my head since I first read it.
Then I thought of this one...duh! -- by title only.
I go there every year for a conference. It's a fun place, but I agree with you for a lot of reasons (including the immense strain on the environment).
I haven't been there in ages - husband's been not-so-subtly hinting (OK, he's come right out and said it!) that he wants to visit there at least once in his life. Last time I was there it was sensory overload but I'm willing to give it another short go.
But yes, I guess the revenue there exceeds the cost of the energy of the lights alone.
And given that one of my company's offices is there, its investment in land, plus our hundreds of tenants...I do hope the city itself ultimately succeeds in many ways.
So here's the problem with that.Where does your way of thinking stop? The same could be said about Development along coastlines.Skyscrapers on wetlands,urban sprawl pretty much everywhere. All cities all areas have some impact on the enviorment and are subjected to some of Mother natures wrath.How is Vegas different from Palm Springs?What about Tuscon or Phoenix? Since we as a race are going to develop lands previously unlivable we should figure out ways to harness what is available and maximize its impact. GF had some good thoughts on Dams and rain and snow melt containment.
So here's the problem with that.Where does your way of thinking stop? The same could be said about Development along coastlines.Skyscrapers on wetlands,urban sprawl pretty much everywhere. All cities all areas have some impact on the enviorment and are subjected to some of Mother natures wrath.How is Vegas different from Palm Springs?What about Tuscon or Phoenix? Since we as a race are going to develop lands previously unlivable we should figure out ways to harness what is available and maximize its impact. GF had some good thoughts on Dams and rain and snow melt containment.
I see what you mean for sure. I really think that cities like Tucson (I used to live there!) and Pheonix probably shouldn't exist at the size they do. If there is a fine line with environmental impact, cities like those are nowhere near it! Vegas is different in that it only exists in it's current state for excessive entertainment, so when it dries up I won't feel very bad. The water is all stolen from Mexico anyways lol
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
So here's the problem with that.Where does your way of thinking stop? The same could be said about Development along coastlines.Skyscrapers on wetlands,urban sprawl pretty much everywhere. All cities all areas have some impact on the enviorment and are subjected to some of Mother natures wrath.How is Vegas different from Palm Springs?What about Tuscon or Phoenix? Since we as a race are going to develop lands previously unlivable we should figure out ways to harness what is available and maximize its impact. GF had some good thoughts on Dams and rain and snow melt containment.
I see what you mean for sure. I really think that cities like Tucson (I used to live there!) and Pheonix probably shouldn't exist at the size they do. If there is a fine line with environmental impact, cities like those are nowhere near it! Vegas is different in that it only exists in it's current state for excessive entertainment, so when it dries up I won't feel very bad. The water is all stolen from Mexico anyways lol
It will be interesting (to put it mildly) to see Vegas, Phoenix/Mesa/Scottsdale/Glendale/etc., Tuscon and Oh-ohhhh Albuquerque become the worlds largest ghost towns.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
and what of desalinizaion plants ? ( yes badbrains I fucked the spelling on that but it was my best guess LOL!!) check this out...all the melting glasier fans are worried about a 11 to 12 rise on ocean coast line right ? these plants would be a win win in my opinion.
and what of desalinizaion plants ? ( yes badbrains I fucked the spelling on that but it was my best guess LOL!!) check this out...all the melting glasier fans are worried about a 11 to 12 rise on ocean coast line right ? these plants would be a win win in my opinion.
Godfather.
I said that also.I think that is the future.Brian,thinks cost may be the big issue.But wouldn't it cost more to not go full speed ahead w/desalination?
and what of desalinizaion plants ? ( yes badbrains I fucked the spelling on that but it was my best guess LOL!!) check this out...all the melting glasier fans are worried about a 11 to 12 rise on ocean coast line right ? these plants would be a win win in my opinion.
Godfather.
I said that also.I think that is the future.Brian,thinks cost may be the big issue.But wouldn't it cost more to not go full speed ahead w/desalination?
Not just cost though, rr. Here's what I posted elsewhere about desalinization:
...the cost of desalinization, the energy consumption needed to run such a plant and the impact on the environment will very likely limit this choice.
The Pacific Institute does a lot of research on water issues. They point out that:
--Current cost estimate for the single plant being developed at this time in Carlsbad (in southern California) is one billion dollars.
--Desalinization is very energy consuming. The article points out that, "Desalinated water can cost upwards of $1,900 per acre foot, considerably more than other alternatives such as water conservation and efficiency, stormwater capture, and recycled water."
--There are a number of negative environmental impacts involved in desalinization (see link).
The other point I've made previously is in regards to population. Looked at over several centuries or millennia, California is an arid state. The 20th century was an unusually wet one. It's returning to it's normal arid conditions (or more than normal with the added effects of global warming) and will not be able to sustain its current 320.09 million plus inhabitants.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
and what of desalinizaion plants ? ( yes badbrains I fucked the spelling on that but it was my best guess LOL!!) check this out...all the melting glasier fans are worried about a 11 to 12 rise on ocean coast line right ? these plants would be a win win in my opinion.
Godfather.
I said that also.I think that is the future.Brian,thinks cost may be the big issue.But wouldn't it cost more to not go full speed ahead w/desalination?
it could cost us more than just money, imagine if resivors started drying up to a point that we humans are not the only ones affected,some species of animals and fish or even plant life could disapere for ever.
Godfather.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
and what of desalinizaion plants ? ( yes badbrains I fucked the spelling on that but it was my best guess LOL!!) check this out...all the melting glasier fans are worried about a 11 to 12 rise on ocean coast line right ? these plants would be a win win in my opinion.
Godfather.
I said that also.I think that is the future.Brian,thinks cost may be the big issue.But wouldn't it cost more to not go full speed ahead w/desalination?
it could cost us more than just money, imagine if resivors started drying up to a point that we humans are not the only ones affected,some species of animals and fish or even plant life could disapere for ever.
Godfather.
Godfather, I'm pretty sure constructing those reservoirs in the first place has done more to disrupt natural cycles and kill off species than having them dry up will. Human impact on all natural cycles always makes things worse, not better. The only reasonable solution is to reduce our numbers and reduce our impact. All is is simply vanity and arrogance on our part.
Sorry, GF- spelling corrected! :-)
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The amount of water used on agriculture (80%) is going to have to be addressed. Certainly, a huge impact on CA but the rest of the US as well. Time for the rest of us to make adjustments about where we get our food rather than continue to depend on CA for getting year round access to almonds, etc. I'd love to see a big push for growing each regions local agriculture!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I'm with you Brian on the overpopulation being central to the problem. But how can the state of CA get people to move out? And do they even want that?
I'm with riotgrl, making adjustments for other states to supplement the growing of almonds, etc seems really ideal. But will the gov't go for that? Will they be on the side of survival and health of the people or will they side with good 'ol fashion capitalism and not seek real, long-term solutions?
I'm with you Brian on the overpopulation being central to the problem. But how can the state of CA get people to move out? And do they even want that?
I'm with riotgrl, making adjustments for other states to supplement the growing of almonds, etc seems really ideal. But will the gov't go for that? Will they be on the side of survival and health of the people or will they side with good 'ol fashion capitalism and not seek real, long-term solutions?
I wish that people would see that we have to change now but capitalism rules the world and is blind to the realities of the problems confronting the world. We'll continue on as we are until we are forced to change and then it will truly be survival of the fittest.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
You're right Riotgrl. And that was a good article you posted. If money blinds (and it does), then our leaders, who we count on for our futures, are even more blinded by the almighty dollar if they continue to approve developers to build in areas that are desert. And what about Californians not abiding by the restrictions and continue to water their lawns and gardens, with desert on the other side of their property? We all have to do our part now, rather than when there's no alternative.
We got ourselves into this mess by convincing ourselves that climate change is up for debate. If we're already seeing impact from overpopulation and unusual weather patterns due to climate change, it won't just be our children suffering from our mistakes, it'll be us. Thank you capitalism.
You're right Riotgrl. And that was a good article you posted. If money blinds (and it does), then our leaders, who we count on for our futures, are even more blinded by the almighty dollar if they continue to approve developers to build in areas that are desert. And what about Californians not abiding by the restrictions and continue to water their lawns and gardens, with desert on the other side of their property? We all have to do our part now, rather than when there's no alternative.
We got ourselves into this mess by convincing ourselves that climate change is up for debate. If we're already seeing impact from overpopulation and unusual weather patterns due to climate change, it won't just be our children suffering from our mistakes, it'll be us. Thank you capitalism.
How about this spin.Dont rely on our "leaders" but instead rely on oneself for our future.
You think the dollar drives descisions,then we need to make change profitable.Hell, even the most non caring politician would be for progressive change if it could create jobs and make a profit.Dont be affraid of the big dollar,harness what it brings and make it work for the better.It takes money to create alternative energy and sustainability.
Development isn't the issue.Developing smarter is.Planning better.
You're right Riotgrl. And that was a good article you posted. If money blinds (and it does), then our leaders, who we count on for our futures, are even more blinded by the almighty dollar if they continue to approve developers to build in areas that are desert. And what about Californians not abiding by the restrictions and continue to water their lawns and gardens, with desert on the other side of their property? We all have to do our part now, rather than when there's no alternative.
We got ourselves into this mess by convincing ourselves that climate change is up for debate. If we're already seeing impact from overpopulation and unusual weather patterns due to climate change, it won't just be our children suffering from our mistakes, it'll be us. Thank you capitalism.
How about this spin.Dont rely on our "leaders" but instead rely on oneself for our future.
You think the dollar drives descisions,then we need to make change profitable.Hell, even the most non caring politician would be for progressive change if it could create jobs and make a profit.Dont be affraid of the big dollar,harness what it brings and make it work for the better.It takes money to create alternative energy and sustainability.
Development isn't the issue.Developing smarter is.Planning better.
I have to say, rr, that back in the mid decades of the 20th century that might have worked. Americans, particularly the G.I. generation were known for buckling down and tackling problems. But what about those following? The boomers (my peers) were all talk in the sixties (I just finished a Vine Deloria book in which he predicted my generation would grow stronger as activists- boy was he wrong!) but we got bogged down with our pursuit of an easy and luxurious "lifestyle", then came the lost generation, the punks, many of whom carry the torch but are too small in number, then the gen xer's/slacker generation and, well, well see. It's up to you guys and the Millenniums who are growing up now. I don't see it happening though.
So that leaves leaders and the few good ones out there are way outnumbered by the crooks, so that's not gonna happen. I personally think it will be analogous to the addict who will hit bottom and either die or get well. I think that's where were heading.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I'm with you Brian on the overpopulation being central to the problem. But how can the state of CA get people to move out? And do they even want that?
I'm with riotgrl, making adjustments for other states to supplement the growing of almonds, etc seems really ideal. But will the gov't go for that? Will they be on the side of survival and health of the people or will they side with good 'ol fashion capitalism and not seek real, long-term solutions?
Well the people of California would suffer from the collapse of their agricultural industry either way. Either they run out of water for it, or the country stops buying what they're growing (i really don't see this happening though... the general population doesn't give a shit about stressed water resources. They will just want their almonds and California wines). Both equate to a collapse of the state's agricultural economy. Then what??
Desalinization projects will almost certainly be a big part of their solution, for lack of any better options, and i am definitely very concerned about the ecological impact of such projects as they are grown into mega projects, as opposed to what they already have going.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Raymond Dasmann must be rolling over in his grave. Dasmann was the groundbreaking conservation biologist who, in 1964, wrote the excellent book The Destruction of California. As early as 1964, California was already on the fast road to environmental demise. Had his warnings and suggestions for preserving and restoring some of the ecological balance here, perhaps some of the damage could have been reversed. Most of his suggestions have not been heeded and it is quite likely that future generations will view California as a classic example of a human induced collapse of a spectacularly diverse and once very healthy ecosystem. California is one one of the great tragedies of our time.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
But yes, I guess the revenue there exceeds the cost of the energy of the lights alone.
And given that one of my company's offices is there, its investment in land, plus our hundreds of tenants...I do hope the city itself ultimately succeeds in many ways.
Just saw a commercial on a local channel...great concept, but almost seems too good be true.
The thread title has had Radiohead in my head since I first read it.
Then I thought of this one...duh! -- by title only.
The same could be said about Development along coastlines.Skyscrapers on wetlands,urban sprawl pretty much everywhere.
All cities all areas have some impact on the enviorment and are subjected to some of Mother natures wrath.How is Vegas different from Palm Springs?What about Tuscon or Phoenix?
Since we as a race are going to develop lands previously unlivable we should figure out ways to harness what is available and maximize its impact.
GF had some good thoughts on Dams and rain and snow melt containment.
Godfather.
...the cost of desalinization, the energy consumption needed to run such a plant and the impact on the environment will very likely limit this choice.
The Pacific Institute does a lot of research on water issues. They point out that:
--Current cost estimate for the single plant being developed at this time in Carlsbad (in southern California) is one billion dollars.
--Desalinization is very energy consuming. The article points out that, "Desalinated water can cost upwards of $1,900 per acre foot, considerably more than other alternatives such as water conservation and efficiency, stormwater capture, and recycled water."
--There are a number of negative environmental impacts involved in desalinization (see link).
http://pacinst.org/what-about-desalination-during-the-drought/
The other point I've made previously is in regards to population. Looked at over several centuries or millennia, California is an arid state. The 20th century was an unusually wet one. It's returning to it's normal arid conditions (or more than normal with the added effects of global warming) and will not be able to sustain its current 320.09 million plus inhabitants.
Godfather.
Sorry, GF- spelling corrected! :-)
nytimes.com/2015/04/05/us/california-drought-tests-history-of-endless-growth.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
The amount of water used on agriculture (80%) is going to have to be addressed. Certainly, a huge impact on CA but the rest of the US as well. Time for the rest of us to make adjustments about where we get our food rather than continue to depend on CA for getting year round access to almonds, etc. I'd love to see a big push for growing each regions local agriculture!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I'm with riotgrl, making adjustments for other states to supplement the growing of almonds, etc seems really ideal. But will the gov't go for that? Will they be on the side of survival and health of the people or will they side with good 'ol fashion capitalism and not seek real, long-term solutions?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
We got ourselves into this mess by convincing ourselves that climate change is up for debate. If we're already seeing impact from overpopulation and unusual weather patterns due to climate change, it won't just be our children suffering from our mistakes, it'll be us. Thank you capitalism.
You think the dollar drives descisions,then we need to make change profitable.Hell, even the most non caring politician would be for progressive change if it could create jobs and make a profit.Dont be affraid of the big dollar,harness what it brings and make it work for the better.It takes money to create alternative energy and sustainability.
Development isn't the issue.Developing smarter is.Planning better.
theatlantic.com/photo/2015/04/the-american-west-dries-up/389432/?utm_source=SFFB
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
So that leaves leaders and the few good ones out there are way outnumbered by the crooks, so that's not gonna happen. I personally think it will be analogous to the addict who will hit bottom and either die or get well. I think that's where were heading.
Desalinization projects will almost certainly be a big part of their solution, for lack of any better options, and i am definitely very concerned about the ecological impact of such projects as they are grown into mega projects, as opposed to what they already have going.