"I don't know if the president loves the United States..."

backseatLover12

Obama says it like it is.

rgambs

backseatLover12 said:

Obama says it like it is.

His whole Selma speech spoke this issue, and was very relevant to the disagreement you and RR were having.

hedonist

backseatLover12 said:

Not to discount the sentiment, but I think this has been said before in many ways.

As to "occasional disruption", that term can come off as gentle and lamblike...not a fan of the violent kind. I think Obama spoke to something similar this past week...?

backseatLover12

rgambs said:

backseatLover12 said:

Obama says it like it is.

His whole Selma speech spoke this issue, and was very relevant to the disagreement you and RR were having.

Thank you, I didn't hear the Selma speech or this news... (I must have been under a rock this past week, something my head cold contributes to.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-reifowitz/the-selma-speech-obamas-a_b_6846610.html

The Selma Speech: Obama's America vs. Giuliani's America

When Rudy Giuliani recently accused President Obama of not loving our country or its people, he removed the last scintilla of doubt as to whether he had anything positive to contribute to our political discourse. Giuliani claimed that the president shows a "disinclination to emphasize what is right with America" and instead offers constant criticism. Never mind that such a charge is absolutely baseless.

Beyond the lack of truth, consider what Giuliani's statement reveals about how someone who does love America is supposed to talk. He and other conservatives have long attacked the president for not embracing their understanding of American exceptionalism. To these critics, loving America apparently means talking about our country the way an overindulgent, coddling parent would talk to a 5-year-old. Barack Obama knows better.

I wrote a book about Obama's conception of American identity, as well as his depiction of our country's values and history. Although in my research I came across countless examples of him talking about America, I've never heard him do so in as profound a way as he did in Selma this Saturday. The president subtly rejected the Giuliani approach, noting that America isn't "stock photos or airbrushed history or feeble attempts to define some of us as more American than others. We respect the past, but we don't pine for the past. We don't fear the future; we grab for it. America is not some fragile thing." Instead, referencing the march that he and so many other had come to commemorate, he asked:

What could be more American than what happened in this place? What could more profoundly vindicate the idea of America than plain and humble people -- the unsung, the downtrodden, the dreamers not of high station, not born to wealth or privilege, not of one religious tradition but many -- coming together to shape their country's course?
What greater expression of faith in the American experiment than this; what greater form of patriotism is there; than the belief that America is not yet finished, that we are strong enough to be self-critical, that each successive generation can look upon our imperfections and decide that it is in our power to remake this nation to more closely align with our highest ideals?
That's why Selma is not some outlier in the American experience. That's why it's not a museum or static monument to behold from a distance. It is instead the manifestation of a creed written into our founding documents:
"We the People...in order to form a more perfect union."
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
These are not just words. They are a living thing, a call to action, a roadmap for citizenship and an insistence in the capacity of free men and women to shape our own destiny. For founders like Franklin and Jefferson, for leaders like Lincoln and FDR, the success of our experiment in self-government rested on engaging all of our citizens in this work. And that's what we celebrate here in Selma. That's what this movement was all about, one leg in our long journey toward freedom."

These are not just words. They are a living thing, a call to action, a roadmap for citizenship and an insistence in the capacity of free men and women to shape our own destiny. For founders like Franklin and Jefferson, for leaders like Lincoln and FDR, the success of our experiment in self-government rested on engaging all of our citizens in this work. And that's what we celebrate here in Selma. That's what this movement was all about, one leg in our long journey toward freedom.
Obama's America emphasizes real progress and also tells hard truths about our shortcomings. It presents an inclusive story in which all of us can recognize our connection to America and our fellow Americans.

Full speech at link above.

dignin

backseatLover12 said:

Yeah, kinda like Edward Snowden......

brianlux

backseatLover12 said:

Obama says it like it is.

For a while there I really didn't see that as the case. But more and more (and thank goodness!) this seems to be true. It seems like he's taking the opportunity, at last, to come through on some issues the way we had hoped he would. Always better late than never and I'm glad for it.

backseatLover12

Yeah, kinda like Snowden. Although people who don't like their boat rocked with inconvenient truths will just continue to deny… What a way to live.

And Brian, it's so easy to point fingers at the scapegoat at the top, but his whole administration, he had wolves breathing down his neck, refusing to even consider some of his ideas (the GOP), let alone the rest of racist America. I give him props for handling this bullshit behavior from an entire party refusing to work with him. It certainly can't be easy. At least he didn't let the GOP rob him of his ideals, even if they were too lofty to ever consider to be realistic in this country. He had a LOT working against him.

badbrains

Seems to me that he's the ONLY one in DC doing ANYTHING. And I'm not a huge supporter. But let's be real here, who's been more of a disappointment? The clowns of the GOP or the potus?

backseatLover12

badbrains said:

Seems to me that he's the ONLY one in DC doing ANYTHING. And I'm not a huge supporter. But let's be real here, who's been more of a disappointment? The clowns of the GOP or the potus?

Exactly!

callen

dignin said:

backseatLover12 said:

Yeah, kinda like Edward Snowden......

Right!

callen

badbrains said:

Seems to me that he's the ONLY one in DC doing ANYTHING. And I'm not a huge supporter. But let's be real here, who's been more of a disappointment? The clowns of the GOP or the potus?

Doesn't matter, Obama's a Muslim. Born in Nigeria. Supported by dope smoking pinko liberals and he's black.

This president has done more good for the common American than any president in my lifetime but doesn't matter. Republicans have better funded marketing program exploiting human weaknesses.

callen

brianlux said:

backseatLover12 said:

Obama says it like it is.

For a while there I really didn't see that as the case. But more and more (and thank goodness!) this seems to be true. It seems like he's taking the opportunity, at last, to come through on some issues the way we had hoped he would. Always better late than never and I'm glad for it.

Brian, thought of your past posts on disappointments with Obama. Have had same thoughts but in the end realize he has very limited power and has to walk this fucked up line.

But then I compare him to past presidents and see clear difference. Fuck, gays can now openly serve in military. Fk just that one thing. Let alone the countless other things. Like staying out of MJ legalization.

So glass is 7/8th full.

Peace.

brianlux

callen said:

brianlux said:

backseatLover12 said:

Obama says it like it is.

For a while there I really didn't see that as the case. But more and more (and thank goodness!) this seems to be true. It seems like he's taking the opportunity, at last, to come through on some issues the way we had hoped he would. Always better late than never and I'm glad for it.

Brian, thought of your past posts on disappointments with Obama. Have had same thoughts but in the end realize he has very limited power and has to walk this fucked up line.

But then I compare him to past presidents and see clear difference. Fuck, gays can now openly serve in military. Fk just that one thing. Let alone the countless other things. Like staying out of MJ legalization.

So glass is 7/8th full.

Peace.

Yeah, Obama's had to face a it of resistance, that's for sure. Looked at from that perspective, he's done quite well.

hedonist

callen said:

badbrains said:

Seems to me that he's the ONLY one in DC doing ANYTHING. And I'm not a huge supporter. But let's be real here, who's been more of a disappointment? The clowns of the GOP or the potus?

Doesn't matter, Obama's a Muslim. Born in Nigeria. Supported by dope smoking pinko liberals and he's black.

This president has done more good for the common American than any president in my lifetime but doesn't matter. Republicans have better funded marketing program exploiting human weaknesses.

This is the kind of response on which I call smelly, unmitigated bullshit.

Not (only) here, but in just sharing ideas and thoughts on this country, how it's run and by whom, any iota of criticism (or, as is always encouraged, "critical" thought) is dismissed to being blind, biased, bigoted.

God forbid true thoughts and paths of communication are attempted.

Fuck that.

callen

The thread title is called, “I don’t think Obama Loves America”. In this thread I posted my comments. This phrase resonates with Americans I live with in America. This includes Americans that I work with, American friends and family I interact with personally on a daily basis. This resonates with posts I see on CNBC, CNN, Time etc. So not sure of how many Americans you are exposed to on an ordinary day but there is a large portion of Americans I deal with that have the Obama is a Muslim mindset. Republicans and Corporations savor this. These are also the very same Americans that benefit the most from his policies but they can’t see through the hate. Go to Click2Houston.com and open a story that has Obama in it and you will see this wonderful section of US population. Go to any crime story and read comments and many will directly reference them being Obama’s kids. This isn’t a racist conservative news site, this is mainstream popular news site in Houston with corresponding TV news program. They piggy back CNN stories..that liberal news channel.

Now I am always more than happy to debate actual policies and have done so just in last three posts of how Obama has made huge strides on gay rights in this country. Huge, and that republican likely would not have done. So did you want to debate how gays should not have equal rights or do you propose someone do so? . Or staying out of Colorado’s rights to legalize. Posted that just above. Be more than happy to debate that as well. So fuck yes hate is played big time and fuck yeah be glad to debate the policies of my current American President.

hedonist

"So did you want to debate how gays should not have equal rights or do you propose someone do so? . Or staying out of Colorado’s rights to legalize."

What? Sorry, but I'm lost with that.

Not sure if you expect me - as someone who's posted honestly and open-mindedly here for years - to shout from the rooftops, yes, damn those gays! And damn those who could benefit from the medicinal side of the green!

I'm talking about this dismissive, no qualms about calling someone a racist and assigning ridiculous goals, for offering up simple critiques that have nothing to do with skin color or where the hell someone was(n't) born.

rgambs

hedonist said:

"So did you want to debate how gays should not have equal rights or do you propose someone do so? . Or staying out of Colorado’s rights to legalize."

What? Sorry, but I'm lost with that.

Not sure if you expect me - as someone who's posted honestly and open-mindedly here for years - to shout from the rooftops, yes, damn those gays! And damn those who could benefit from the medicinal side of the green!

I'm talking about this dismissive, no qualms about calling someone a racist and assigning ridiculous goals, for offering up simple critiques that have nothing to do with skin color or where the hell someone was(n't) born.

This is something I have not seen much of. 90% of the criticism I see leveled at Obama is non-specific, and I think this is what callen is speaking to... People don't tend to have direct policy specific critiques, it is usally just general reasons that aren't even fact-based...outlandish claims about the debt, his foreign policy "weakness", socialism (puuuuhlease!), birther claims, and everywhere the claim that "Obama hates America"
6 and a half years later and the establishment conservatives are still calling for the sky to fall, it hasn't.
Still lamenting his economy crushing socialism, while the economy improves.
Still questioning his citizenhood and dedication to America, while he gives more of his life than they do.
Still calling him a Muslim, without evidence.
Worst of all, normal everyday people (trust me, the midwest is PACKED with them) who still rankle under the leadership of a black man, with no specific reason to hate him.

hedonist

I live in a fairly large city so am exposed to people from many walks of life, every day. Several years ago, I was accused of being racist by a co-worker, who in the same breath dismissed Obama's opponent because he was "old and white".

So silly and, to a degree, insulting (depending on who's leveling such claims).

Of course there are some who are close-minded to an extreme; I'm just tired of those with legitimate concerns, comments, what have you, being tossed into the cesspool of bigots.

Open eyes should come from (and not disregarded) all around, I think.

callen

Reality bites.

rgambs

hedonist said:

I live in a fairly large city so am exposed to people from many walks of life, every day. Several years ago, I was accused of being racist by a co-worker, who in the same breath dismissed Obama's opponent because he was "old and white".

So silly and, to a degree, insulting (depending on who's leveling such claims).

Of course there are some who are close-minded to an extreme; I'm just tired of those with legitimate concerns, comments, what have you, being tossed into the cesspool of bigots.

Open eyes should come from (and not disregarded) all around, I think.

I honestly just haven't seen that much, if at all. When I see someone with legitimate concerns I see those concerns debated with facts.
For example: "ObamaCare the job killer... Vs. the actual reports.