Yeah that's how the company line goes. Except that most of them fled to Pakistan, we replaced terrorist warlords with opium druglords (furthering a US heroin epidemic), and going to war isn't even close to the best method of thwarting terror attacks.
Yeah that's how the company line goes. Except that most of them fled to Pakistan, we replaced terrorist warlords with opium druglords (furthering a US heroin epidemic), and going to war isn't even close to the best method of thwarting terror attacks.
True. Revenge was the bottom line. I was ok with it. Not iraq.
BB,I agree w ya on Saudi Arabia.They are both our friend out in public and our enemy in the dark.Saudi $$$$ finds its way to the Jihadis.It would never happen,but a full scale probe up their ass woulda been more then justified after 9/11.Im not so sure anyone was willing to see what would be uncovered.That would ruin a perfectly mutual business relationship.
We all seem to agree Iraq was a waste,but Afghanistan was a needed fight and for a while held back the tide.Me thinks the big mistake of the last 6 years is the Syrian situation and the black hole of filth coming from our lack of action.
No Scott, you're actually wrong. We should've went to house of saud and liberated those people since 16 of 19 high jackers were from there.
It never ceases to amaze me that this fact is well-known, yet the enemy of the US at the time was not.
It should be obvious to everyone that the response to 9-11 was poorly conceived as a measure of national defence, but lucrative to those who stood to profit. Ultimately, it has been a crime of epic proportions.
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything.
I was actually just going to post this very point. He doesn't understand the difference between protecting Americans and protecting America's political interests.
I will grant that it was justified, but that doesn't mean we were defending ourselves. There is some ground between conquest and defense, and the Afghanistan war falls in that middle ground.
We weren't defending ourselves? I disagree. We went over there and pretty much wiped out an entire generation of terrorists and prevented who knows how many attacks on americans.
pre-emptive strikes are not a defence as I see it.
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything.
agreed....I cringe whenever I hear a veteran say something like that. Especially when we have a volunteer army.
Do people in Canada say that crap too? They have free speech and I don't see them blowing up foreign countries. And I don't buy "they don't because we do it for them" as a intelligent answer.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I will grant that it was justified, but that doesn't mean we were defending ourselves. There is some ground between conquest and defense, and the Afghanistan war falls in that middle ground.
We weren't defending ourselves? I disagree. We went over there and pretty much wiped out an entire generation of terrorists and prevented who knows how many attacks on americans.
pre-emptive strikes are not a defence as I see it.
The Afghanistan war was far from a pre-emptive strike.
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything.
agreed....I cringe whenever I hear a veteran say something like that. Especially when we have a volunteer army.
Do people in Canada say that crap too? They have free speech and I don't see them blowing up foreign countries. And I don't buy "they don't because we do it for them" as a intelligent answer.
Dude, in the 90's a few Native Canadians took on the canadian forces, and won. The leader was named lasagna. Since then, our Prime minister (Harper) is like the little runt hiding behind the muscle(USA) jumping up and down behind him going, "yeah boy, we'll fuck you up". Canada would be defeated by Cuba in a fair fight.
I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
I will grant that it was justified, but that doesn't mean we were defending ourselves. There is some ground between conquest and defense, and the Afghanistan war falls in that middle ground.
We weren't defending ourselves? I disagree. We went over there and pretty much wiped out an entire generation of terrorists and prevented who knows how many attacks on americans.
pre-emptive strikes are not a defence as I see it.
The Afghanistan war was far from a pre-emptive strike.
We weren't defending ourselves? I disagree. We went over there and pretty much wiped out an entire generation of terrorists and prevented who knows how many attacks on americans.
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Maybe they fought / are fighting for the freedoms of others?
I don't profess to know.
But there was a shitload of honest reflection and powerful recollection of the toll taken on someone in that position. It's not for me to buy or not (dude's not selling anything, just telling), and I can't imagine what it must be like from there.
I will grant that it was justified, but that doesn't mean we were defending ourselves. There is some ground between conquest and defense, and the Afghanistan war falls in that middle ground.
We weren't defending ourselves? I disagree. We went over there and pretty much wiped out an entire generation of terrorists and prevented who knows how many attacks on americans.
pre-emptive strikes are not a defence as I see it.
So now I'll comment properly on your post.
I think by going to Afghanistan we were defending ourselves. We were responding directly to an attack. I definitely think Bush gave most of those terrorists to much time to run to Pakistan. But that's a different thread.
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything.
agreed....I cringe whenever I hear a veteran say something like that. Especially when we have a volunteer army.
Do people in Canada say that crap too? They have free speech and I don't see them blowing up foreign countries. And I don't buy "they don't because we do it for them" as a intelligent answer.
I was proud both that my country contributed to the Afghanistan operations and that we stood aside during the first Iraq war. I was disappointed, however, that we left Afghanistan before the job was done. We've long been on Al Quaeda's "to do" list, and I credit both luck and our security agency that we've thus far been relatively minimally affected by terrorism.
At the moment, I have zero problem with Canada's involvement in the current Iraqi operations, since we were directly threatened by ISIS/ISIL/whatever they're called this week. While not directly tied to Iraq, the Parliament shooter made the school my sister teaches at (and my nephews attend) go into lockdown, thankfully needlessly, but I may be a bit biased on that basis.
Funny also that it was a Liberal Prime Minister who said "Just watch me" as he enacted the War Measures Act during the FLQ crisis of the 70s, an act and attitude most would associate with the Conservatives these days.
Just another Canuck's 2c.
Edit: I know this is terrible to add as an afterthought, but I also wanted action taken now in Iraq based on the wanton slaughter of non-Muslims by ISIS, similar to how I wanted the Taliban removed before 9/11 when they were destroying world heritage sites.
Post edited by DarthMaeglin on
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,153
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Hedo, I don't think B-Lux was refusing to buy this guys perspective, just that tired old line about "protecting freedom"
I wonder what Mr. Lux meant if he himself explained it?
1st, on the light side. I was very nearly named David which would have made me D. Lux. At the last minute, they changed their mind. Haha!
Now, to answer your question, PJFanwillneverleavebrianluxalone1:
Here's the quote again:
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
In saying that, Couglan is basically say our troops are fighting for our freedom. This is simply not true. I haven't read Couglan's book so, no, I'm not arguing about his perspective. I'm arguing against the notion that post-WWII we have fought various wars as a way to protect our freedom. I am arguing that that post-WWII we have not once fought to protect our freedom. We may have fought for other reasons (justifiable or not), but our freedom has never been in jeopardy from the outside.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Hedo, I don't think B-Lux was refusing to buy this guys perspective, just that tired old line about "protecting freedom"
I wonder what Mr. Lux meant if he himself explained it?
to answer your question, PJFanwillneverleave:
Here's the quote again:
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
I know what the quote is. I was referring to your response to the quote. ("Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything)".
Could you elaborate on this a little further so as we don't get others elaborating on what you may or may not have said.
Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Oy, PJFan...it's not like Brian speaks in riddles...well, not usually
I guess there's a way of asking for clarification non-passive-aggressively.
And thanks for (via that post) addressing my question, B. Perhaps the attempts at providing freedom of speech, of religion, of sexuality, of life itself, aren't just for US, for Americans. Maybe trying to help others to have the same. That was my point.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
In saying that, Couglan is basically say our troops are fighting for our freedom. This is simply not true. I haven't read Couglan's book so, no, I'm not arguing about his perspective. I'm arguing against the notion that post-WWII we have fought various wars as a way to protect our freedom. I am arguing that that post-WWII we have not once fought to protect our freedom. We may have fought for other reasons (justifiable or not), but our freedom has never been in jeopardy from the outside.
This is the way I take it. That soldiers defend what they do by taking the propaganda talk of our gov't as a way to justify being on other lands and simply, defending their stance that what they do (kill) is justified and that "...we're fighting for you, man, we're fighting for you!"
That mentality. Like we owe them something because they voluntarily join the military.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,840
Brian, you do not feel we were fighting for our freedoms when we went into Afghanistan?
No. I don't think any of us can really answer why we we there. We were told we were there with the intention of wiping out the Taliban. It was more like fighting against something than it was to preserve or protect something- i.e. our freedom- which was never in jeopardy in the first place. I mean, really, Afghanistan was going to take away our freedoms?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,840
Hedo, I don't think B-Lux was refusing to buy this guys perspective, just that tired old line about "protecting freedom"
I wonder what Mr. Lux meant if he himself explained it?
to answer your question, PJFanwillneverleave:
Here's the quote again:
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
I know what the quote is. I was referring to your response to the quote. ("Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything)".
Could you elaborate on this a little further so as we don't get others elaborating on what you may or may not have said.
Tell you what, why don't you answer my question first for a change. And would you please get that bright light out of my face, hahaha!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Brian, you do not feel we were fighting for our freedoms when we went into Afghanistan?
No. I don't think any of us can really answer why we we there. We were told we were there with the intention of wiping out the Taliban. It was more like fighting against something than it was to preserve or protect something- i.e. our freedom- which was never in jeopardy in the first place. I mean, really, Afghanistan was going to take away our freedoms?
Not Afghanistan, the Taliban through Al-Qaeda. They were trying to take out freedoms. Disagree?
Comments
True. Revenge was the bottom line. I was ok with it. Not iraq.
We all seem to agree Iraq was a waste,but Afghanistan was a needed fight and for a while held back the tide.Me thinks the big mistake of the last 6 years is the Syrian situation and the black hole of filth coming from our lack of action.
It never ceases to amaze me that this fact is well-known, yet the enemy of the US at the time was not.
It should be obvious to everyone that the response to 9-11 was poorly conceived as a measure of national defence, but lucrative to those who stood to profit. Ultimately, it has been a crime of epic proportions.
I was actually just going to post this very point. He doesn't understand the difference between protecting Americans and protecting America's political interests.
www.headstonesband.com
pre-emptive strikes are not a defence as I see it.
www.headstonesband.com
agreed....I cringe whenever I hear a veteran say something like that. Especially when we have a volunteer army.
Do people in Canada say that crap too? They have free speech and I don't see them blowing up foreign countries. And I don't buy "they don't because we do it for them" as a intelligent answer.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
The Afghanistan war was far from a pre-emptive strike.
Dude, in the 90's a few Native Canadians took on the canadian forces, and won. The leader was named lasagna. Since then, our Prime minister (Harper) is like the little runt hiding behind the muscle(USA) jumping up and down behind him going, "yeah boy, we'll fuck you up". Canada would be defeated by Cuba in a fair fight.
um, I was responding to your post that said:
www.headstonesband.com
Side note: what do you want to be called?
I don't profess to know.
But there was a shitload of honest reflection and powerful recollection of the toll taken on someone in that position. It's not for me to buy or not (dude's not selling anything, just telling), and I can't imagine what it must be like from there.
no worries man. and you can call me buckwheat for all I care.
www.headstonesband.com
I like "B-Lux"... Its like deluxe but smooooother.
So now I'll comment properly on your post.
I think by going to Afghanistan we were defending ourselves. We were responding directly to an attack. I definitely think Bush gave most of those terrorists to much time to run to Pakistan. But that's a different thread.
B-Lux the anti dicksmith
I was proud both that my country contributed to the Afghanistan operations and that we stood aside during the first Iraq war. I was disappointed, however, that we left Afghanistan before the job was done. We've long been on Al Quaeda's "to do" list, and I credit both luck and our security agency that we've thus far been relatively minimally affected by terrorism.
At the moment, I have zero problem with Canada's involvement in the current Iraqi operations, since we were directly threatened by ISIS/ISIL/whatever they're called this week. While not directly tied to Iraq, the Parliament shooter made the school my sister teaches at (and my nephews attend) go into lockdown, thankfully needlessly, but I may be a bit biased on that basis.
Funny also that it was a Liberal Prime Minister who said "Just watch me" as he enacted the War Measures Act during the FLQ crisis of the 70s, an act and attitude most would associate with the Conservatives these days.
Just another Canuck's 2c.
Edit: I know this is terrible to add as an afterthought, but I also wanted action taken now in Iraq based on the wanton slaughter of non-Muslims by ISIS, similar to how I wanted the Taliban removed before 9/11 when they were destroying world heritage sites.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I wonder what Mr. Lux meant if he himself explained it?
1st, on the light side. I was very nearly named David which would have made me D. Lux. At the last minute, they changed their mind. Haha!
Now, to answer your question, PJFanwillneverleavebrianluxalone1:
Here's the quote again:
I'd say that I spent 21 and a half years in the military, and that there's many men and women serving right now serving on the tip of the spear to allow him [Moore] to say that.
In saying that, Couglan is basically say our troops are fighting for our freedom. This is simply not true. I haven't read Couglan's book so, no, I'm not arguing about his perspective. I'm arguing against the notion that post-WWII we have fought various wars as a way to protect our freedom. I am arguing that that post-WWII we have not once fought to protect our freedom. We may have fought for other reasons (justifiable or not), but our freedom has never been in jeopardy from the outside.
I know what the quote is. I was referring to your response to the quote. ("Does anybody here buy this? I don't. I don't think any of our troops (whom, as you know, I do support) have fought anywhere in the world in the last 50 years to fight for our freedom to say anything)".
Could you elaborate on this a little further so as we don't get others elaborating on what you may or may not have said.
I guess there's a way of asking for clarification non-passive-aggressively.
And thanks for (via that post) addressing my question, B. Perhaps the attempts at providing freedom of speech, of religion, of sexuality, of life itself, aren't just for US, for Americans. Maybe trying to help others to have the same. That was my point.
Brian, you do not feel we were fighting for our freedoms when we went into Afghanistan?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Yes, I read it. I was looking for his take. Revenge? Oil?
This is the way I take it. That soldiers defend what they do by taking the propaganda talk of our gov't as a way to justify being on other lands and simply, defending their stance that what they do (kill) is justified and that "...we're fighting for you, man, we're fighting for you!"
That mentality. Like we owe them something because they voluntarily join the military.
No. I don't think any of us can really answer why we we there. We were told we were there with the intention of wiping out the Taliban. It was more like fighting against something than it was to preserve or protect something- i.e. our freedom- which was never in jeopardy in the first place. I mean, really, Afghanistan was going to take away our freedoms?
Tell you what, why don't you answer my question first for a change. And would you please get that bright light out of my face, hahaha!
Not Afghanistan, the Taliban through Al-Qaeda. They were trying to take out freedoms. Disagree?