I am admittedly not an expert on this. What I understand is that the term, when used in the context of this ongoing discussion, refers to an organized online Israeli propaganda machine similar to or exactly like what the article Drowned Out posted above describes. Like I said, I question how often it has ever made an appearance on this board.
Christ! My point is simply that "Hasbarah," as it's actually used in Hebrew (remember, it's a Hebrew word) is a general term that includes all sorts of things most of which would be considered entirely benign by all but the most rabidly crazy haters of Israel.
As it's used here, it's become a heavy-handed tool for suppressing contrary opinions. Because clearly, anyone who disagrees with the received wisdom that Israel is the demon spawn of Satan and Hitler must obviously be a paid agent of the Israeli government sent to this Pearl Jam fan site to convince a handful of people who can't be convinced and who have no actual power or influence that Israel is really not so bad.
I never thought it was sinister,I always thought you guys were talking about the company that made those sweet GI Joe dolls from when I was a kid .You know he had that fuzzy little buzz cut of all different color hair.Some had beards.You could get all the different outfits and weapons.....
I am admittedly not an expert on this. What I understand is that the term, when used in the context of this ongoing discussion, refers to an organized online Israeli propaganda machine similar to or exactly like what the article Drowned Out posted above describes. Like I said, I question how often it has ever made an appearance on this board.
it has been here. trust me.
just like this board was monitored by the feds in 2003 in the lead up to the iraq war, after ed spoke out in denver. i know at least one poster who was deported over that shit.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Christ! My point is simply that "Hasbarah," as it's actually used in Hebrew (remember, it's a Hebrew word) is a general term that includes all sorts of things most of which would be considered entirely benign by all but the most rabidly crazy haters of Israel.
As it's used here, it's become a heavy-handed tool for suppressing contrary opinions. Because clearly, anyone who disagrees with the received wisdom that Israel is the demon spawn of Satan and Hitler must obviously be a paid agent of the Israeli government sent to this Pearl Jam fan site to convince a handful of people who can't be convinced and who have no actual power or influence that Israel is really not so bad.
I never thought it was sinister,I always thought you guys were talking about the company that made those sweet GI Joe dolls from when I was a kid .You know he had that fuzzy little buzz cut of all different color hair.Some had beards.You could get all the different outfits and weapons.....
that was Hasbro..
)
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I am admittedly not an expert on this. What I understand is that the term, when used in the context of this ongoing discussion, refers to an organized online Israeli propaganda machine similar to or exactly like what the article Drowned Out posted above describes. Like I said, I question how often it has ever made an appearance on this board.
it has been here. trust me.
just like this board was monitored by the feds in 2003 in the lead up to the iraq war, after ed spoke out in denver. i know at least one poster who was deported over that shit.
Crazy. We sometimes have no idea who is behind the screen name on the other side of the debate.
For my part, as someone who has done no research on it and hasn't seen the articles linked above yet, my notion of hasbara is foggy but possibly getting clearer. I did read an article that showed credible evidence that the web has been "infiltrated" for some time by thousands of entities, from govt institutions like FBI and CIA, to private corporations, which pay people to spread talking points and try to skew the conversation on any number of topics. I assumed that Israel was among them and considered it par for course. If a group is committing war crimes like the US and Israel routinely do, they certainly have reason to spread a PR campaign. In regards to it being "sinister"...that's an interesting thought... If the people are paid, and it is intended as a secret, then yes i consider that on the sinister side. If the scale is huge, and there are thousands upon thousands of Israeli supporters being paid to spread talking points, this makes it more sinister. Lastly, what are they being paid to say? If it is a tourism campaign as you suggest then there is nothing sinister about it (outside of the normal morbidity of asking someone to support a country which routinely murders civillians...Israel certainly doesnt stand alone there) but if the topic is specifically designated as engaging in convos about the conflict, it is sinister. If it is specifically to cast an unfavorable light on Palestine and glorify Israel it is sinister as hell. I am starting to be sure it is pretty shady, but again, not singling Israel out...the US is shady to the max and I am sure all the controversial nations are doing this now.
they spread propaganda and justify what israel is doing. similar to the texas textbooks that said that african americans actually enjoyed being slaves and enjoyed being in america before the civil war.
Ok, so now disagreeing with you is akin to endorsing slavery. You really have such a cheerful and productive way of carrying on a conversation.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
For my part, as someone who has done no research on it and hasn't seen the articles linked above yet, my notion of hasbara is foggy but possibly getting clearer. I did read an article that showed credible evidence that the web has been "infiltrated" for some time by thousands of entities, from govt institutions like FBI and CIA, to private corporations, which pay people to spread talking points and try to skew the conversation on any number of topics. I assumed that Israel was among them and considered it par for course. If a group is committing war crimes like the US and Israel routinely do, they certainly have reason to spread a PR campaign. In regards to it being "sinister"...that's an interesting thought... If the people are paid, and it is intended as a secret, then yes i consider that on the sinister side. If the scale is huge, and there are thousands upon thousands of Israeli supporters being paid to spread talking points, this makes it more sinister. Lastly, what are they being paid to say? If it is a tourism campaign as you suggest then there is nothing sinister about it (outside of the normal morbidity of asking someone to support a country which routinely murders civillians...Israel certainly doesnt stand alone there) but if the topic is specifically designated as engaging in convos about the conflict, it is sinister. If it is specifically to cast an unfavorable light on Palestine and glorify Israel it is sinister as hell. I am starting to be sure it is pretty shady, but again, not singling Israel out...the US is shady to the max and I am sure all the controversial nations are doing this now.
they spread propaganda and justify what israel is doing. similar to the texas textbooks that said that african americans actually enjoyed being slaves and enjoyed being in america before the civil war.
Ok, so now disagreeing with you is akin to endorsing slavery. You really have such a cheerful and productive way of carrying on a conversation.
i don't make excuses for atrocities and war crimes. i own it when my people do it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The problem isn't that there aren't people, myself included, who are willing to own it. The problem is that your idea of what "it" is bears very little resemblance to the reality that I know. The very fact that you consider slavery in the American south to be an apt analogy for the magnitude of atrocity that has been committed speaks to the fact that, at the very least, you've lost all sense of proportion.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
The problem isn't that there aren't people, myself included, who are willing to own it. The problem is that your idea of what "it" is bears very little resemblance to the reality that I know. The very fact that you consider slavery in the American south to be an apt analogy for the magnitude of atrocity that has been committed speaks to the fact that, at the very least, you've lost all sense of proportion.
slavery was institutionalized subjugation of one population by another. for instance, take this law that israel is advancing right now. now tell me that most israeli jews do not view arabs as second class.
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's Cabinet approved a contentious bill Sunday to officially define it as the nation-state of the Jewish people, a move that looks to further inflame tensions with Arab Israelis and Palestinians and potentially shake up the ruling coalition government.
The bill, which still needs to be passed in parliament to become a law, ostensibly looks to define Israel's existing Jewish nature into law. But its various versions have drawn accusations that it will undermine the country's democratic character, and some rights groups have even denounced it as racist.
The vote comes at a time of soaring tensions between Arabs and Jews and a wave of violent attacks, including last week's deadly assault on a Jerusalem synagogue in which two Palestinians killed five people with guns and meat cleavers.
The Israeli government vowed to respond to the wave of violence with harsh new measures, including a proposal to strip Palestinian attackers of their residency rights. Israel has already resumed a controversial policy of demolishing Palestinian attackers' homes.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the nationality bill was needed to anchor both Israel's Jewish and democratic nature, at a time when he said many were challenging Israel's existence.
"There are those who would like the democratic to prevail over the Jewish and there are those who would like the Jewish to prevail over the democratic," he said. "In the principles of the law that I will submit today both of these values are equal and both must be considered to the same degree."
The vote set off a stormy Cabinet session in which two of his most centrist coalition partners voted against the proposed bill and voiced fierce opposition, claiming that at this sensitive juncture it would likely just escalate tensions.
Finance Minister Yair Lapid, who heads the centrist Yesh Atid party, called it "a bad law, which is badly worded." After voting against the bill, his faction was holding an emergency meeting to discuss further steps. Justice Minister Tzipi Livni of the Hatnuah movement also opposed the bill.
In its current form, the bill calls for recognizing Israel's Jewish character, institutionalizing Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation and delisting Arabic as an official language.
Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel's population and strongly oppose the bill.
The recent unrest has centered around Jerusalem's most sensitive holy site, a hilltop compound revered by Jews and Muslims.
Muslims fear that Israel is plotting to take over the site — a charge that Israel denies. They are also upset about Israeli restrictions that have limited access for Muslim worshippers on security grounds.
Meanwhile, a spokeswoman for an Israeli mayor who suspended work by Arab laborers over the recent violence said they will be allowed to resume building bomb shelters in kindergartens next week, but that children would be moved to other locations in the city of Ashkelon during the construction. ........... israel is not fooling anybody, and neither are the people who make apologies for it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.
I wouldn't put much stock in Raimondos rumblings.Fringe blogger who is out there with a lot of his ideas.This is an opinion peace plain and simple.Anyone who thinks Iran is less of a threat to American interest than Israel is crazy and stupid.
I wouldn't put much stock in Raimondos rumblings.Fringe blogger who is out there with a lot of his ideas.This is an opinion peace plain and simple.Anyone who thinks Iran is less of a threat to American interest than Israel is crazy and stupid.
facts from the opinion piece
We’ve handed them over $3 billion a year in tribute
Tehran of running a secret nuclear weapons program, although no convincing evidence of this has ever been produced
Aside from North Korea, Israel is the only nuclear power that has managed to get away with thumbing its nose at the international community over this issue. The Iranians submitting themselves to a strict inspections regime will doubtless turn the world’s attention to the weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Israel’s leadership – a political class increasingly seen as extremist by outsiders. Steadfastly refusing to sign the Nonproliferation Treaty, along with North Korea
After a fierce shouting match that could reportedly be heard from behind closed doors, Israeli ministers voted Sunday in favor of a controversial "Jewish state" bill by a 14 to six majority.
The bill, which still requires the approval of the Knesset, or parliament, to pass, defines Israel as the nation-state of Jewish people, cites Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation, and in some drafts, would see Arabic delisted as a second official language.
Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu said that the reform, similar to a constitutional amendment, is a "necessary" measure to balance democracy and Jewish values.
"[Israel] has equal individual rights for every citizen" he said at the cabinet meeting. "But there are national rights [which are] only for the Jewish people: a flag, anthem, the right of every Jew to immigrate to Israel, and other national symbols."
Critics, however, have slammed the law as racist and undemocratic in a country where more than 20 percent of the population is Arab Muslim or Christian.
Netanyahu calls for homes of synagogue attackers to be bulldozed. Read more here.
Amongst those opposing the bill internally is Israel's center-left finance minister Yair Lapid, who called the draft law "terrible and badly written." In raising the November 18 incident involving Zidan Saif, the Arab Druze policeman who was killed while responding to a terror attack on a synagogue, Lapid asked: "What are we meant to tell his family? That he a second-class citizen in the state of Israel?"
Israel's Attorney General, Yehuda Weinstein, also spoke out against the bill saying that it would erode democracy in the country.
In response to critics in the heated cabinet meeting, Netanyahu reportedly slammed his fist on the table and shouted: "It cannot be that Arabs can live in Jewish towns, but Jews can't live in Arab towns. A country within a country is developing."
The Prime Minister later said he was "determined to pass the bill with or without agreement."
With early elections looming, many say that Netanyahu's political posturing, including his support of the controversial new bill, is a dangerous maneuver designed to bolster his support amongst Israel's powerful right-wing ahead of the vote.
"[The whole process] smacks of populist politicking," Yohanan Plesner, the President of the Israel Democracy Institute, said in a statement. "[It] touches on raw nerves at an especially delicate moment in our nation's history."
The controversial bill comes as tensions between Israelis and Palestinians continue to escalate. A bloody summer war in Gaza, which killed 66 Israeli soldiers and 6 civilians and more than 2,100 Palestinians, has been followed by a spate of Palestinian terror attacks in Jerusalem.
Lynching or Suicide? Conflicting Accounts of Palestinian Bus Driver's Death Underscore Growing Tensions in Jerusalem.
The latest wave of violence has killed 11 Israelis and least a dozen Palestinians, including several perpetrators of the terror attacks.
On Sunday, Israeli soldiers reportedly shot dead a farmer on the Gaza border. A spokesperson for the Israeli Defence Force said the man had failed to respond to warning shots. If confirmed, it will be the first Palestinian death in the strip at the hands of Israeli forces since the end of the summer war.
In response to the mounting tensions, Israel has reinstated a controversial counterterrorism measure of demolishing the family homes of terror attack suspects and perpetrators. The decades-old policy, condemned by Human Rights Watch as collective punishment, was previously abandoned in 2005 after its deterrent effect was called into question by a military report.
So far, only one home has been destroyed in response to the recent series of terror attacks, but another three are scheduled for imminent demolition.
Netanyahu is also reportedly penning a separate bill that would further extend powers to revoke the permanent residency and social benefits of Palestinians who encourage terror and incitement to violence. The proposal has received some support including from Jerusalem Mayor, Nir Barkat, who said the government also needed to consider how to "act more decisively against those who case disturbances and throw stones."
BB,I think this is a really dumb descision by the Israelis.Democracies should remain democratic and keep church and state separate,This will backfire on the Israeli govt IMO.
BB,I think this is a really dumb descision by the Israelis.Democracies should remain democratic and keep church and state separate,This will backfire on the Israeli govt IMO.
i am glad they voted the way they did. it shows their true colors and it shows that they have no interest at all in peace.
they made a terrible statement to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is listening. except for the US of course...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
BB,I think this is a really dumb descision by the Israelis.Democracies should remain democratic and keep church and state separate,This will backfire on the Israeli govt IMO.
i am glad they voted the way they did. it shows their true colors and it shows that they have no interest at all in peace.
they made a terrible statement to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is listening. except for the US of course...
Rivlin has impressed me lately... Israel is a far stretch from a poster child for democracy, and there are important topics that still ought to be addressed (i.e. the immigration policy, the Palestinian refugee problem, etc.), but the man regularly addresses the hard topic of societal fragmentation, and he does not deny that Jews are, at the very least somewhat. Being the President of the so-called Jewish state, that's bound to be a less than popular opinion for people to receive, yet he persists. Societal bridging is so crucial, because I would imagine the 'us and them' mentality within the country must be omnipresent these days on the topic of Jews and Arabs. It's hardly a solution to Israel's litany of problems and inequalities, but it's at least a step in the right direction, coming from a position of power.
Rivlin's words do show another crucial issue: what, in his mind, defines a Jewish state is a Jewish majority. Since there are roughly five million Palestinian refugees while Israel's population is about 8 million (2 million of them non-Jews), to extend to the refugees the right to return to the region would mean to potentially sacrifice the majority Jewish population. Thus, the Jewishness of the state would be diminished or revoked entirely (unless Israeli Jews start making babies like their lives depended on it).
A government's first duty is to appease and protect the people, and the Israeli Jewish people hold dearly their identities as members of the Jewish state. This to me reaffirms why societal bridging is crucial: Jews and Arabs within Israel need to stop defining themselves as Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, or Arabs, and start remembering their true identities as humans that express just basic giving a shit about each other. When this happens, Israeli Jews can stop thinking themselves as members of the "Jewish _____" or the "____ State", and only then will justice and equality matter more than identity: if you identify as a human, you aren't betraying your identity by caring for any other human.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.
This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).
I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...
Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.
This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).
I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...
fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.
As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.
Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.
This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).
I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...
fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.
As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.
Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.
Fair enough, but there is a point to be made that those folks who are pro-Israel often tolerate (or ignore) anti-Semitism if it comes from someone who tows the line when it comes to their discourse, as this poster did.
Well considering that HALF of the US is owned by the Jews I would actually say the more correct term is Friends...but more importantly you have to look at the Region Israel are located in.
This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).
I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...
fuck... I don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing that you must find it incredibly frustrating to combat fallacious notions about your people and to fall on deaf ears who will remain steadfast in their beliefs regardless of what you have to say (or evidence to show to the contrary). I can't speak for other Jews here, but frankly, there are people who seem to think that behind every injustice or atrocity in the world is a Jew pulling strings and setting wheels in motion. To try to combat that notion would likely amount to nothing positive, so I'd say the reason this garbage went unchallenged is because of a perception of hopelessness in changing that mentality. I didn't even know the poster had made that ignorant suggestion you're mentioning, but I'm not too surprised, and it seems to fit the character.
As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.
Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.
Fair enough, but there is a point to be made that those folks who are pro-Israel often tolerate (or ignore) anti-Semitism if it comes from someone who tows the line when it comes to their discourse, as this poster did.
We should actively be condemning any form of racism when we perceive it, regardless of where it comes from, so thank you for doing what Jews here failed to do, myself included. I appreciate your unwavering commitment to equality and fair treatment on here, it's always refreshing to see.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.
I think the problem is that it's been misused so much (anti-semitism) that it feels watered down. Let's be honest, for a while, ANY criticism of Israel would've been responded with "you're an anti-Semite". I can't stand Israel's government, have no use for them, but I DONT hate the people of Israel. Shit, my people have 2 villages in Israel that I would love to visit one day.
In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.
lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
In the past, this board has not reacted well when antisemitism was pointed out. People seem to have convinced themselves that when the topic of discussion is Israel, there is no such thing as antisemitism. I've often tried to discuss the slippage from fair criticism of Israel to antisemitism that can often occur when people get carried away on this board. Almost invariably I'm told that I'm "crying antisemitism" in bad faith to stifle debate. So I've mostly stopped trying, because why waste my breath (so to speak) on people who are either bigots or who categorically refuse to engage in even the slightest self-critical examination.
lets be crystal clear. i am not anti judaism, or anti jewish people. just as you are not anti islam or anti muslim. i am against likud politics and platform. i am against land theft and settlement expansion. i am against subjugation of palestinians. i am against the policies of the israeli government and the hardliners that support it.
There is NO FUCKEN WAY GIMMIE is an anti-semite. Absolutely NOT.
Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
just like this board was monitored by the feds in 2003 in the lead up to the iraq war, after ed spoke out in denver. i know at least one poster who was deported over that shit.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-analysis-pinpoints-israeli-killer-palestinian-teen
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Israel Mulls Hard-Line Legislation After Attacks
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/23/israel-new-laws_n_6207042.html
Posted: 11/23/2014 8:47 am EST
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's Cabinet approved a contentious bill Sunday to officially define it as the nation-state of the Jewish people, a move that looks to further inflame tensions with Arab Israelis and Palestinians and potentially shake up the ruling coalition government.
The bill, which still needs to be passed in parliament to become a law, ostensibly looks to define Israel's existing Jewish nature into law. But its various versions have drawn accusations that it will undermine the country's democratic character, and some rights groups have even denounced it as racist.
The vote comes at a time of soaring tensions between Arabs and Jews and a wave of violent attacks, including last week's deadly assault on a Jerusalem synagogue in which two Palestinians killed five people with guns and meat cleavers.
The Israeli government vowed to respond to the wave of violence with harsh new measures, including a proposal to strip Palestinian attackers of their residency rights. Israel has already resumed a controversial policy of demolishing Palestinian attackers' homes.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the nationality bill was needed to anchor both Israel's Jewish and democratic nature, at a time when he said many were challenging Israel's existence.
"There are those who would like the democratic to prevail over the Jewish and there are those who would like the Jewish to prevail over the democratic," he said. "In the principles of the law that I will submit today both of these values are equal and both must be considered to the same degree."
The vote set off a stormy Cabinet session in which two of his most centrist coalition partners voted against the proposed bill and voiced fierce opposition, claiming that at this sensitive juncture it would likely just escalate tensions.
Finance Minister Yair Lapid, who heads the centrist Yesh Atid party, called it "a bad law, which is badly worded." After voting against the bill, his faction was holding an emergency meeting to discuss further steps. Justice Minister Tzipi Livni of the Hatnuah movement also opposed the bill.
In its current form, the bill calls for recognizing Israel's Jewish character, institutionalizing Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation and delisting Arabic as an official language.
Arabs make up about 20 percent of Israel's population and strongly oppose the bill.
The recent unrest has centered around Jerusalem's most sensitive holy site, a hilltop compound revered by Jews and Muslims.
Muslims fear that Israel is plotting to take over the site — a charge that Israel denies. They are also upset about Israeli restrictions that have limited access for Muslim worshippers on security grounds.
Meanwhile, a spokeswoman for an Israeli mayor who suspended work by Arab laborers over the recent violence said they will be allowed to resume building bomb shelters in kindergartens next week, but that children would be moved to other locations in the city of Ashkelon during the construction.
...........
israel is not fooling anybody, and neither are the people who make apologies for it.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=742130
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/11/23/israel-americas-biggest-frenemy/
We’ve handed them over $3 billion a year in tribute
Tehran of running a secret nuclear weapons program, although no convincing evidence of this has ever been produced
Aside from North Korea, Israel is the only nuclear power that has managed to get away with thumbing its nose at the international community over this issue. The Iranians submitting themselves to a strict inspections regime will doubtless turn the world’s attention to the weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Israel’s leadership – a political class increasingly seen as extremist by outsiders. Steadfastly refusing to sign the Nonproliferation Treaty, along with North Korea
https://news.vice.com/article/critics-brand-israelis-jewish-state-law-as-racist-undemocratic?utm_source=vicenewstwitter
After a fierce shouting match that could reportedly be heard from behind closed doors, Israeli ministers voted Sunday in favor of a controversial "Jewish state" bill by a 14 to six majority.
The bill, which still requires the approval of the Knesset, or parliament, to pass, defines Israel as the nation-state of Jewish people, cites Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation, and in some drafts, would see Arabic delisted as a second official language.
Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu said that the reform, similar to a constitutional amendment, is a "necessary" measure to balance democracy and Jewish values.
"[Israel] has equal individual rights for every citizen" he said at the cabinet meeting. "But there are national rights [which are] only for the Jewish people: a flag, anthem, the right of every Jew to immigrate to Israel, and other national symbols."
Critics, however, have slammed the law as racist and undemocratic in a country where more than 20 percent of the population is Arab Muslim or Christian.
Netanyahu calls for homes of synagogue attackers to be bulldozed. Read more here.
Amongst those opposing the bill internally is Israel's center-left finance minister Yair Lapid, who called the draft law "terrible and badly written." In raising the November 18 incident involving Zidan Saif, the Arab Druze policeman who was killed while responding to a terror attack on a synagogue, Lapid asked: "What are we meant to tell his family? That he a second-class citizen in the state of Israel?"
Israel's Attorney General, Yehuda Weinstein, also spoke out against the bill saying that it would erode democracy in the country.
In response to critics in the heated cabinet meeting, Netanyahu reportedly slammed his fist on the table and shouted: "It cannot be that Arabs can live in Jewish towns, but Jews can't live in Arab towns. A country within a country is developing."
The Prime Minister later said he was "determined to pass the bill with or without agreement."
With early elections looming, many say that Netanyahu's political posturing, including his support of the controversial new bill, is a dangerous maneuver designed to bolster his support amongst Israel's powerful right-wing ahead of the vote.
"[The whole process] smacks of populist politicking," Yohanan Plesner, the President of the Israel Democracy Institute, said in a statement. "[It] touches on raw nerves at an especially delicate moment in our nation's history."
The controversial bill comes as tensions between Israelis and Palestinians continue to escalate. A bloody summer war in Gaza, which killed 66 Israeli soldiers and 6 civilians and more than 2,100 Palestinians, has been followed by a spate of Palestinian terror attacks in Jerusalem.
Lynching or Suicide? Conflicting Accounts of Palestinian Bus Driver's Death Underscore Growing Tensions in Jerusalem.
The latest wave of violence has killed 11 Israelis and least a dozen Palestinians, including several perpetrators of the terror attacks.
On Sunday, Israeli soldiers reportedly shot dead a farmer on the Gaza border. A spokesperson for the Israeli Defence Force said the man had failed to respond to warning shots. If confirmed, it will be the first Palestinian death in the strip at the hands of Israeli forces since the end of the summer war.
In response to the mounting tensions, Israel has reinstated a controversial counterterrorism measure of demolishing the family homes of terror attack suspects and perpetrators. The decades-old policy, condemned by Human Rights Watch as collective punishment, was previously abandoned in 2005 after its deterrent effect was called into question by a military report.
So far, only one home has been destroyed in response to the recent series of terror attacks, but another three are scheduled for imminent demolition.
Netanyahu is also reportedly penning a separate bill that would further extend powers to revoke the permanent residency and social benefits of Palestinians who encourage terror and incitement to violence. The proposal has received some support including from Jerusalem Mayor, Nir Barkat, who said the government also needed to consider how to "act more decisively against those who case disturbances and throw stones."
they made a terrible statement to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is listening. except for the US of course...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Rivlin has impressed me lately... Israel is a far stretch from a poster child for democracy, and there are important topics that still ought to be addressed (i.e. the immigration policy, the Palestinian refugee problem, etc.), but the man regularly addresses the hard topic of societal fragmentation, and he does not deny that Jews are, at the very least somewhat. Being the President of the so-called Jewish state, that's bound to be a less than popular opinion for people to receive, yet he persists. Societal bridging is so crucial, because I would imagine the 'us and them' mentality within the country must be omnipresent these days on the topic of Jews and Arabs. It's hardly a solution to Israel's litany of problems and inequalities, but it's at least a step in the right direction, coming from a position of power.
Rivlin's words do show another crucial issue: what, in his mind, defines a Jewish state is a Jewish majority. Since there are roughly five million Palestinian refugees while Israel's population is about 8 million (2 million of them non-Jews), to extend to the refugees the right to return to the region would mean to potentially sacrifice the majority Jewish population. Thus, the Jewishness of the state would be diminished or revoked entirely (unless Israeli Jews start making babies like their lives depended on it).
A government's first duty is to appease and protect the people, and the Israeli Jewish people hold dearly their identities as members of the Jewish state. This to me reaffirms why societal bridging is crucial: Jews and Arabs within Israel need to stop defining themselves as Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, or Arabs, and start remembering their true identities as humans that express just basic giving a shit about each other. When this happens, Israeli Jews can stop thinking themselves as members of the "Jewish _____" or the "____ State", and only then will justice and equality matter more than identity: if you identify as a human, you aren't betraying your identity by caring for any other human.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
This anti-Semitic garbage goes unchallenged why? Because the person who wrote it also wrote previous posts that are beneficial to the pro-Israel viewpoint? Such as when this poster ignorantly suggested that there are no categories of oppressor or oppressed in the conflict between one of the world's largest militaries (Israel) and a majority refugee population (Palestinians).
I don't even want to guess what the second half of that post is meant to mean by alluding to the "Region Israel are [is?] located in"...
As for the allusion to the region Israel resides within, I interpreted that to mean that America tolerates Israel because of the economic gains of having an ally in an oil-rich part of the world.
Regardless, I'd much rather discuss the injustices that Palestinians have sustained and seek solutions, rather than wasting time explaining to someone that the Jewish boogeyman isn't lurking behind every corner.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."