Now back to Israel as usual

mickeyrat

benjs said:

badbrains said:

benjs said:

JC29856 said:

Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.

Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.

Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.

In all fairness Ben, we are CONSTANTLY reminded every year about the holocaust aren't we not? I remember spending 1 week on the holocaust and only 2 days on the civil war when I was in school. I would think the civil war was way more important to America then the holocaust.

And not for nothing, if we were supposed to learn from the holocaust and "NEVER AGAIN", then why is Israel doing exactly what they said "NEVER AGAIN" to? And Ben, not directing this last paragraph at you. Just sort of making a point.

Nart, I agree with you that we're constantly reminded about the Holocaust. I went to Jewish day school, so I'd have been lucky if it was just one week learning about it. My typical response now when I hear someone talking about the Holocaust is to remind them that a different kind of ethnic cleansing is occurring now by the same people who were once on the other side of the guns, and how this represents the betrayal of the global motion to swear, as you accurately pointed out, "never again". I'm also happy to point out to people the existence of the numerous horrific genocides throughout history (after a visit to Cambodia, that one resonates profoundly with me every single day).

I suppose that the difference for me in the way these discussions here are going, when compared to teaching children about the Holocaust, is the implicit and explicit "so what". "Never again" is the "so what" when it comes to Holocaust education as I see it: it's a campaign to promote young people questioning predetermined societal indoctrinations, to show the significance of not just tolerance but true harmonious coexistence, and to show the necessity of admission of guilt, seeking reparations to injustices, and the strive to always be learning from mistakes.

We've done the first part of this THOROUGHLY here: we've recognized an injustice. But thanks to social media, global news coverage (both grassroots and as delivered through people with hidden or visible agendas), that's the easy part. And maybe this frustrates me so much is because I can't figure out the "so what", but it seems to me that this is the crucial next step, and I see it as a waste of energy to focus on something known, when we know it only catalyzes hatred and not progress (not to mention the redundancy, because this is not news anymore: this is reality for anyone in the region).

Believe me, I want to visit the one secular state of whatever-the-fuck-you-want-to-call-Israel-and-Palestine-together one day. It's that link of logic between "Israelis are cruelly dehumanizing Palestinians and stripping them of critical human rights" and the future dream of "Israelis and Palestinians live harmoniously together with equal rights and opportunities and no concern of sectarian affiliations" that's missing, and we need to seek those actions that will bring about this harmony.

Long memories and a willingness to hold a grudge coupled with bullshit rhetoric will prevent this.

yosi

The comparison of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust is ludicrous, and frankly, to my mind, demonstrates how un-moored from reality discussion of Israeli wrongdoing has become. That is not to diminish what Palestinians endure, only to point out that IT IS NOT INDUSTRIAL GENOCIDE. The civil war in Syria, which also doesn't come anywhere close to the scale of the Holocaust, has claimed more lives in 3 years than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has in its entire history. And, to be clear, I am also not trying to insulate the Holocaust as something that is beyond comparison. Cambodia, for example, which left a deep impression on me as well, is a reasonable comparison to make.

mickeyrat

yosi said:

The comparison of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust is ludicrous, and frankly, to my mind, demonstrates how un-moored from reality discussion of Israeli wrongdoing has become. That is not to diminish what Palestinians endure, only to point out that IT IS NOT INDUSTRIAL GENOCIDE. The civil war in Syria, which also doesn't come anywhere close to the scale of the Holocaust, has claimed more lives in 3 years than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has in its entire history. And, to be clear, I am also not trying to insulate the Holocaust as something that is beyond comparison. Cambodia, for example, which left a deep impression on me as well, is a reasonable comparison to make.

piecemeal is no less horrific.

badbrains

yosi said:

The comparison of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust is ludicrous, and frankly, to my mind, demonstrates how un-moored from reality discussion of Israeli wrongdoing has become. That is not to diminish what Palestinians endure, only to point out that IT IS NOT INDUSTRIAL GENOCIDE. The civil war in Syria, which also doesn't come anywhere close to the scale of the Holocaust, has claimed more lives in 3 years than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has in its entire history. And, to be clear, I am also not trying to insulate the Holocaust as something that is beyond comparison. Cambodia, for example, which left a deep impression on me as well, is a reasonable comparison to make.

you're comparing a civil war in syria with Israel/Palestine? And Cambodia left a deep impression on you? Well, Palestine leaves a deep impression on the world. Only problem is the fucken US hold the cards and that's why the Palestinians have been suffering at the hands of the Israeli GOVERNMENT for too long.

Question for you yosi, what side does Israel stand on syria? I'm just curious cuz with Assad, you had a decent relationship with syria. But with a new leader, what will happen? I'm pretty sure tho Israel will have last say at who leads syria when that time comes. It's the perks of having America as your bitch.

gimmesometruth27

everyone says that israel is "surrounded by enemies" in the region.

my first thought would be to "stop making enemies", but netanyahu is unable to do that. he is expanding settlements, and he has the blood of thousands of innocent people on his hands with just the last "war"/atrocity with the palestinians. he is the single biggest threat to israel's security, and the people keep voting to keep him in power. that to me says all i need to know about his party and it's supporters.

gimmesometruth27

have you ever had a guy friend in your group that is always being an ass to other people? a guy that you have to constantly apologize for? a guy you have to make excuses for? a guy you have to constantly "check" to keep him in line? a guy that acts like billy badass because he has a bunch of friends in his group who have his back?

sooner or later there comes a point when the people in the group stop supporting him. one by one they stop apologizing for him. they stop making excuses for him. they stop saying that "he is a good dude, just misunderstood..." they stop putting their reputation on the line to support that guy. they end up saying "fuck that guy. fuck that guy, he is on his own now."

netanyahu is that guy. he is alienating every single one of israel's allies. we had that guy a few years ago. that guy was george w bush. he alienated a lot of our allies. especially germany and france. they said "fuck that guy we are not going along with it."

when is the united states going to say "fuck that guy" to bibi??

Idris

gimmesometruth27 said:

have you ever had a guy friend in your group that is always being an ass to other people? a guy that you have to constantly apologize for? a guy you have to make excuses for? a guy you have to constantly "check" to keep him in line? a guy that acts like billy badass because he has a bunch of friends in his group who have his back?

sooner or later there comes a point when the people in the group stop supporting him. one by one they stop apologizing for him. they stop making excuses for him. they stop saying that "he is a good dude, just misunderstood..." they stop putting their reputation on the line to support that guy. they end up saying "fuck that guy. fuck that guy, he is on his own now."

netanyahu is that guy. he is alienating every single one of israel's allies. we had that guy a few years ago. that guy was george w bush. he alienated a lot of our allies. especially germany and france. they said "fuck that guy we are not going along with it."

when is the united states going to say "fuck that guy" to bibi??

When we (in the USA) vote for someone with the understanding and balls? To do what is right, and its not right to stand by supporting Israel as it continues its building of illegal settlements and whatever else.

Clinton, Bush, Obama...when we start holding these people accountable for their actions...to truly put their feet on the fire. Then maybe...things will truly start to change.

badbrains

I love how these so called politicians go to Israel before the election, put on the kippah and pray at the wall. Aren't they white Anglo Protestants? Why are u putting a kippah if you're not Jewish. Shit blows my mind. I don't get it. It's like a right of passage for them.

gimmesometruth27

Idris said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

have you ever had a guy friend in your group that is always being an ass to other people? a guy that you have to constantly apologize for? a guy you have to make excuses for? a guy you have to constantly "check" to keep him in line? a guy that acts like billy badass because he has a bunch of friends in his group who have his back?

sooner or later there comes a point when the people in the group stop supporting him. one by one they stop apologizing for him. they stop making excuses for him. they stop saying that "he is a good dude, just misunderstood..." they stop putting their reputation on the line to support that guy. they end up saying "fuck that guy. fuck that guy, he is on his own now."

netanyahu is that guy. he is alienating every single one of israel's allies. we had that guy a few years ago. that guy was george w bush. he alienated a lot of our allies. especially germany and france. they said "fuck that guy we are not going along with it."

when is the united states going to say "fuck that guy" to bibi??

When we (in the USA) vote for someone with the understanding and balls? To do what is right, and its not right to stand by supporting Israel as it continues its building of illegal settlements and whatever else.

Clinton, Bush, Obama...when we start holding these people accountable for their actions...to truly put their feet on the fire. Then maybe...things will truly start to change.

obama has tried.

because of bibi's constant undermining of kerry's work for a lasting peace, obaba and bibi essentially hate each other at this point. us-israel relations are the lciest they have been in decades.

The Juggler

benjs said:

badbrains said:

benjs said:

JC29856 said:

Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.

Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.

Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.

In all fairness Ben, we are CONSTANTLY reminded every year about the holocaust aren't we not? I remember spending 1 week on the holocaust and only 2 days on the civil war when I was in school. I would think the civil war was way more important to America then the holocaust.

And not for nothing, if we were supposed to learn from the holocaust and "NEVER AGAIN", then why is Israel doing exactly what they said "NEVER AGAIN" to? And Ben, not directing this last paragraph at you. Just sort of making a point.

Nart, I agree with you that we're constantly reminded about the Holocaust. I went to Jewish day school, so I'd have been lucky if it was just one week learning about it. My typical response now when I hear someone talking about the Holocaust is to remind them that a different kind of ethnic cleansing is occurring now by the same people who were once on the other side of the guns, and how this represents the betrayal of the global motion to swear, as you accurately pointed out, "never again". I'm also happy to point out to people the existence of the numerous horrific genocides throughout history (after a visit to Cambodia, that one resonates profoundly with me every single day).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8r-TiLSVg

badbrains

The Juggler said:

benjs said:

badbrains said:

benjs said:

JC29856 said:

Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.

Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.

Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.

In all fairness Ben, we are CONSTANTLY reminded every year about the holocaust aren't we not? I remember spending 1 week on the holocaust and only 2 days on the civil war when I was in school. I would think the civil war was way more important to America then the holocaust.

And not for nothing, if we were supposed to learn from the holocaust and "NEVER AGAIN", then why is Israel doing exactly what they said "NEVER AGAIN" to? And Ben, not directing this last paragraph at you. Just sort of making a point.

Nart, I agree with you that we're constantly reminded about the Holocaust. I went to Jewish day school, so I'd have been lucky if it was just one week learning about it. My typical response now when I hear someone talking about the Holocaust is to remind them that a different kind of ethnic cleansing is occurring now by the same people who were once on the other side of the guns, and how this represents the betrayal of the global motion to swear, as you accurately pointed out, "never again". I'm also happy to point out to people the existence of the numerous horrific genocides throughout history (after a visit to Cambodia, that one resonates profoundly with me every single day).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8r-TiLSVg

He strikes AGAIN!

JC29856

http://www.timesofisrael.com/minister-if-hezbollah-fires-rockets-at-israel-lebanon-will-be-razed/#ixzz3I9Rx5fzz

Lebanon again

badbrains

JC29856 said:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/minister-if-hezbollah-fires-rockets-at-israel-lebanon-will-be-razed/#ixzz3I9Rx5fzz

Lebanon again

Israel has to really think about this cuz Hezbollah isn't Hamas. And it would take Israel to wipe out Lebanon to win that war. But let's hear the Israeli apologist justify this war too. This one would be a shit show no doubt. And if Hillary wins the election, Israel will have carte Blanche to do whatever it wants. But it's gonna cost dearly.

JC29856

Don't go on me......

http://www.jpost.com/International/Star-studded-event-raises-record-33-million-for-IDF-381104

badbrains

JC29856 said:

Don't go on me......jew-a-vision

http://www.jpost.com/International/Star-studded-event-raises-record-33-million-for-IDF-381104

Now if the Palestinians had an event like this, would some "group" bully some "other" group into not allowing this money raised for the Palestinians reach them? Prob end up throwing the "this money is raised for Hamas and rockets!" We cannot allow them to receive this money! And no surprise what "side" of Hollywood supports "what" side in this conflict. Shits getting old, but what's 33.5 million compared to 3-7 BILLION? Unreal.

JK18472

What does jew-a-vision mean?

mickeyrat

JC29856 said:

Don't go on me......jew-a-vision

http://www.jpost.com/International/Star-studded-event-raises-record-33-million-for-IDF-381104

sooo the several billion US Gov gives a year isnt enough?

JK18472

Still waiting, Jew-a-vision???

JC29856

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-captures-execution-palestinian-citizen-israeli-police

benjs

dignin said:

benjs said:

JC29856 said:

Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.

Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.

Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.

Awareness is the first step. Nothing wrong with educating everyone.

I just sent this to a member on here privately, so hopefully he or she won't mind me repeating myself here.
I owe a public post retreating on what I said (you'll notice I haven't posted any more criticisms on that thread in a few days), because I gave it a lot of thought after seeing some of the feedback that people gave me, and agree with much of it. Namely, it was naive of me to assume that raising awareness of historical and present-day problems of inequality within Israel precludes the search for a solution. I also realized that while I was condemning people for sharing problems instead of solutions from Palestinian supporters, I've yet to see an Israeli supporter on here do anything but that, and in fact whenever someone on here of Israeli descent or allegiance is asked to do so, they don't. So It was completely unfair of me to throw that condemnation in the other direction for something that, you're right, is still progress in a positive direction.