This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
not only women do sex for money..
Now I'm going to have to break out a little Duece Bigalo .Thanks for putting that out there.Its a classic. I will also work in the term " Man Whore" at least 5 times this evening.
This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
not only women do sex for money..
That's why I mentioned the male prostitutes there in the paragraph you quoted.
Obviously most prostitutes are women, and some are men... and 99% (conservatively) of the customers are still men. Doesn't change my theory that society needs to change the attitudes of namely men when it comes to sex/prostitution (but of women too).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
I'm also aware of the whole problem with this vs the legalization of drugs, which i support... at least some drugs. The prohibition doesn't work argument. Totally get it. But this has a very important extra factor, which is the renting of - that is, the buying and selling - of people... 90% of whom are driven to it out of financial desperation or drug addiction, not by real choice. With all the great arguments for its legalization, including the safety of sex workers, I still just can't bring myself to think it's condoned by society or the government. We need to fight to end prostitution as anything close to a reasonable activity. Especially since the legalization of prostitution would seem like some kind of validation for illegal prostitution and really sinister shit like with the sex slavery racket, which, btw, is the 3rd biggest illegal market in the world, right after drugs and weapons..... doesn't that make it seems like attitudes about this stuff need some tweaking rather than validating the behaviour?
Also, anyone who pays to use someone for sex pretty much makes me sick. So men are what? 99% of the market probably? How about society works at changing the attitudes of these men.
But you all.who support it have completely understandable, reasonable points.
Although I must admit I'm in favor of legalized prostitution (mainly for safety, health and prison over-population reasons) you make some excellent point here, PJ_Soul. I think it is possible to be in favor of legalization but at the same time not condone the practice. But that said, I really respect what you're saying. Your stance and the willingness to speak out against legalization strengthens your convictions regarding your position on the issue. Can't argue against that. (well, maybe- this is AMT after all, hahaha!)
One of the things that's really sad about this issue is that in some places, especially poor countries, many women have to choose between being a prostitute or starving. That is a tragic.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I have mixed feelings about this question. I agree with others that the people who already work in this trade would probably benefit from some kind of regulation and protection under the law. Perhaps there would be less disease and less risk of violence? I'm not sure if we're being too hopeful that it would make the business less harmful for the workers though.
It wouldn't change the basic exchange. It wouldn't change the fact that the workers would be giving access to themselves (body and soul) to anyone would chose to pay the fee. I know that people like to pretend that it's a simple business exchange but I think there's still some kind of emotional price these workers pay. How does it feel to the workers to accept people inside themselves who repulse them? How does it feel to be treated like an object rather than a person? How does it feel to trade an experience that has the potential to be deep as a casual commodity?
I know it seems old fashioned to worry about these questions! These are questions about soul and bonding and sex and they are asked because humans are built to be affected by the experience. To sell it as if it was not linked to a person's feelings is to deny this and wash away an individual OR the individual's ability to really feel.
But, I know many people think it's aalll, okay. Anything, everything, goes to some people...
I believe that as we allow questionable practices (such as selling sex for money) to become casual and commonplace, humans are moving away from spiritual enlightenment rather than towards it.
Well...I may not like it and don't condone it - won't repeat my prior comments in the thread - but that in no way equals my being apathetic or thinking it's a freefuckforall.
Who is to allow? Questionable upon whose terms? Again, why is porn ok but not this? Whose morality are we to live by? If you choose yours to impose on another, can I do the same with mine? Just doesn't seem right to me, to make that decision for anyone else.
If someone chooses a profession for whatever reason, and can do it safely, I may not get the pompoms flying over fucking for money but if it's gonna happen anyway, let's get it done right for all involved.
Well...I may not like it and don't condone it - won't repeat my prior comments in the thread - but that in no way equals my being apathetic or thinking it's a freefuckforall.
Who is to allow? Questionable upon whose terms? Again, why is porn ok but not this? Whose morality are we to live by? If you choose yours to impose on another, can I do the same with mine? Just doesn't seem right to me, to make that decision for anyone else.
If someone chooses a profession for whatever reason, and can do it safely, I may not get the pompoms flying over fucking for money but if it's gonna happen anyway, let's get it done right for all involved.
Since legalization is reality in some countries, I still think it would be interesting to hear research on the matter. , does it really make people's life better :-/ Has anyone read any?
In my opinion porn is a diffrent animal. Porn arouses, and maybe inspires. And maybe it makes people want to check stuff out. But if you have a certain weird preference and nobody wants to act it out or if you have trouble finding a partner because you are disfigured or have mental issues, this is where the prostitute comes in. She gets paid for this. In the perfect alignment, she works like a social worker. She takes tension off of people. And in the perfect scenario, she does it because she feels like doing it. She is a part of society. And in this way she should reap the benefits and not be illegal.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Leeze...am I reading you right that prostitutes are mainly for the two groups you mention?
Or fetishists?
You're leaving out so many...who just want to get laid and get off.
(also don't forget about Craigslist )
Anyway, I think both porn and actual sex in whatever form satisfy in some sense, paid or not.
If all parties are cool with it - and not in the "hey, I'm an idiot and anything goes!" sense alluded to earlier - then have at it. It's not your or my business...or, shouldn't be.
This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
not only women do sex for money..
That's why I mentioned the male prostitutes there in the paragraph you quoted.
Obviously most prostitutes are women, and some are men... and 99% (conservatively) of the customers are still men. Doesn't change my theory that society needs to change the attitudes of namely men when it comes to sex/prostitution (but of women too).
How do u know most of customers are still men??
Women leaves the best tips
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Leeze...am I reading you right that prostitutes are mainly for the two groups you mention?
Or fetishists?
You're leaving out so many...who just want to get laid and get off.
(also don't forget about Craigslist )
Anyway, I think both porn and actual sex in whatever form satisfy in some sense, paid or not.
If all parties are cool with it - and not in the "hey, I'm an idiot and anything goes!" sense alluded to earlier - then have at it. It's not your or my business...or, shouldn't be.
With ya the last part of what you said though.
I used the two groups just as an example Agreed with everything else you said.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
not only women do sex for money..
That's why I mentioned the male prostitutes there in the paragraph you quoted.
Obviously most prostitutes are women, and some are men... and 99% (conservatively) of the customers are still men. Doesn't change my theory that society needs to change the attitudes of namely men when it comes to sex/prostitution (but of women too).
How do u know most of customers are still men??
Women leaves the best tips
Dimitris, why would women pay for sex? If they want to fuck strangers they can get it for free any time they want.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
Selling sex isn't selling a human.
I consider paying money to use a person's body to be the same as buying a person. Well, renting, anyway. That doesn't sit well with me (obviously). And let's not forget the sex trafficking trade. That is actually the buying and selling of people, and IMO, legalizing and accepting prostitution legitimize such illegal activities in the minds of those participating in it. Mindsets need to change when it comes to this issue, and legalizing does the exact opposite of that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
Selling sex isn't selling a human.
I consider paying money to use a person's body to be the same as buying a person. Well, renting, anyway. That doesn't sit well with me (obviously). And let's not forget the sex trafficking trade. That is actually the buying and selling of people, and IMO, legalizing and accepting prostitution legitimize such illegal activities in the minds of those participating in it. Mindsets need to change when it comes to this issue, and legalizing does the exact opposite of that.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, PJ_Soul, yet making it legal makes some sense as well because that kind of "business" will never stop. So what's needed is something that encompasses your concerns with those of the arguments in favor of legalizing. I'm not sure what that would look like but it sure seems like a question worth pursuing. In any case, I agree that shutting down the sex traffic trade should be a priority. It's bad in North America and horrific in some third world countries.
By the way, as a side note, one of the things I've always respected about people like George Carlin, Bill Maher, Amy Goodman, James Howard Kunstler, Edward Abbey, etc., etc. and even some fellow PJ fans here is that even when I disagree with some of the things they've said- maybe even strongly disagree- they always challenge my thinking and push me further in the direction of critical thinking.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
Selling sex isn't selling a human.
I consider paying money to use a person's body to be the same as buying a person. Well, renting, anyway. That doesn't sit well with me (obviously). And let's not forget the sex trafficking trade. That is actually the buying and selling of people, and IMO, legalizing and accepting prostitution legitimize such illegal activities in the minds of those participating in it. Mindsets need to change when it comes to this issue, and legalizing does the exact opposite of that.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, PJ_Soul, yet making it legal makes some sense as well because that kind of "business" will never stop. So what's needed is something that encompasses your concerns with those of the arguments in favor of legalizing. I'm not sure what that would look like but it sure seems like a question worth pursuing. In any case, I agree that shutting down the sex traffic trade should be a priority. It's bad in North America and horrific in some third world countries.
By the way, as a side note, one of the things I've always respected about people like George Carlin, Bill Maher, Amy Goodman, James Howard Kunstler, Edward Abbey, etc., etc. and even some fellow PJ fans here is that even when I disagree with some of the things they've said- maybe even strongly disagree- they always challenge my thinking and push me further in the direction of critical thinking.
Thanks for all your kind comments in this thread Brian. I've had some pretty unpopular perspective on various things lately, lol, so it is nice to feel acceptance even without agreement.
Definitely, it's really in issue that is comp oedema of a rock and a hard place. I don't actually disagree with any of the points made about the benefits of legalizing. It's just that one has to pick anise on this one.... and I guess my sensibilities when it comes to what prostitution really means to women in society and what the act of people using them in this way says about attitudes towards women and sex in general trumps all the logical points for legalization.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude. I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails.
not only women do sex for money..
That's why I mentioned the male prostitutes there in the paragraph you quoted.
Obviously most prostitutes are women, and some are men... and 99% (conservatively) of the customers are still men. Doesn't change my theory that society needs to change the attitudes of namely men when it comes to sex/prostitution (but of women too).
How do u know most of customers are still men??
Women leaves the best tips
Dimitris, why would women pay for sex? If they want to fuck strangers they can get it for free any time they want.
NO,if they want to fuck me..im not for free..hahahha
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
George Carlin can't be right all the time. The selling of human beings and the sociological issues involved aren't a simple or black and white matter at all.
Selling sex isn't selling a human.
I consider paying money to use a person's body to be the same as buying a person. Well, renting, anyway. That doesn't sit well with me (obviously). And let's not forget the sex trafficking trade. That is actually the buying and selling of people, and IMO, legalizing and accepting prostitution legitimize such illegal activities in the minds of those participating in it. Mindsets need to change when it comes to this issue, and legalizing does the exact opposite of that.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, PJ_Soul, yet making it legal makes some sense as well because that kind of "business" will never stop. So what's needed is something that encompasses your concerns with those of the arguments in favor of legalizing. I'm not sure what that would look like but it sure seems like a question worth pursuing. In any case, I agree that shutting down the sex traffic trade should be a priority. It's bad in North America and horrific in some third world countries.
By the way, as a side note, one of the things I've always respected about people like George Carlin, Bill Maher, Amy Goodman, James Howard Kunstler, Edward Abbey, etc., etc. and even some fellow PJ fans here is that even when I disagree with some of the things they've said- maybe even strongly disagree- they always challenge my thinking and push me further in the direction of critical thinking.
Thanks for all your kind comments in this thread Brian. I've had some pretty unpopular perspective on various things lately, lol, so it is nice to feel acceptance even without agreement.
Definitely, it's really in issue that is comp oedema of a rock and a hard place. I don't actually disagree with any of the points made about the benefits of legalizing. It's just that one has to pick anise on this one.... and I guess my sensibilities when it comes to what prostitution really means to women in society and what the act of people using them in this way says about attitudes towards women and sex in general trumps all the logical points for legalization.
Pick anise
I see what you're saying; as a woman - hell, as a human being - I want to be treated with the respect I extend toward others. But (and putting sex trafficking aside, because I think it's separate from prostitution), if someone is willing to enter into such a transaction, taking away the crime factor, making it safe for the parties, the benefits are sensible.
Again, porn is OK? The modeling industry is OK? All the other ways people "sell" themselves?
I value the intimacy of sex - hell, even kissing. But, I know others don't (nor do they have to).
Pj soul, not trying to pick on you, but am really curious about your opinion on a question I have. I have a cousin who is young 20's and we have talked extensively about sex among youngsters his age. Blah blah stupid disclaimer, its not everyone, there still good people yada yada.... The girls are "programmed" by society and peer pressure, or whatever it is that drives them, to be "sluts". They sleep around alot, they value sex for the physical pleasure only, and they often regret multiple partners in a row, while they continue to choose partners they will regret. Rather than using sex as power (as generations of woman have at least attempted to do) it is almost an agent of submission for them. What I mean is they must be wildly sexual to even be acceptable among both guys and girls. Q: In this climate that exists, do you see any value in legal prostitution as a way to empower young women to take the power of sex back. Could seeing a strong confident woman who holds power by placing value on her organs be a good influence on a generation of girls who often have nothing to show for their sexual encounters but shame?
I see it like if someone is selling sex - they are abusing themselves. Maybe they aren't even aware of it. Therefore it feels wrong to legalize it since no one should be abused.
I see it like if someone is selling sex - they are abusing themselves. Maybe they aren't even aware of it. Therefore it feels wrong to legalize it since no one should be abused.
but if self-abuse is the norm should they not at least make money on which to build a better life? Thats the core of my feeling on the subject.
I appreciate your empathy, but if you deem this as self-pollution and should therefore be illegal...how about smoking? Drinking? AGAIN - porn, or any other adult decision made that someone else might decry?
I appreciate your empathy, but if you deem this as self-pollution and should therefore be illegal...how about smoking? Drinking? AGAIN - porn, or any other adult decision made that someone else might decry?
yes exactly!! Making bad, self-abusive decisions is practically all we do with our short time in this life lol!! Might as well get used to it, doesn't mean we can't try harder, it only means we have to be realistic about what choices people will make and what consequences those choices will render.
I see it like if someone is selling sex - they are abusing themselves. Maybe they aren't even aware of it. Therefore it feels wrong to legalize it since no one should be abused.
but if self-abuse is the norm should they not at least make money on which to build a better life? Thats the core of my feeling on the subject.
It doesn't feel like much to build on...I would wish they could get help to get a real job.
I appreciate your empathy, but if you deem this as self-pollution and should therefore be illegal...how about smoking? Drinking? AGAIN - porn, or any other adult decision made that someone else might decry?
Yes grown up people has a free will to harm themselves in different ways. But the law doesn't have to approve of it.
I see it like if someone is selling sex - they are abusing themselves. Maybe they aren't even aware of it. Therefore it feels wrong to legalize it since no one should be abused.
but if self-abuse is the norm should they not at least make money on which to build a better life? Thats the core of my feeling on the subject.
It doesn't feel like much to build on...I would wish they could get help to get a real job.
a prostitute can easily make 100,000+ in a year...enough to buy a home and go into business for yourself...thats powerful building material
The legalization does not mean that it's a free for all. In Germany, prostitution is legal, but human trafficking or forcing somebody into prostitution or underage street whores are not. The legalization is there to make things easier for those who choose to work in this profession on an honest base to make a living. It is not there to encourage abusers to make easy money by abusing others. These would not be covered by the legalization anyway. Their situation would be just as before and they would not stop doing it.
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
Comments
Obviously most prostitutes are women, and some are men... and 99% (conservatively) of the customers are still men. Doesn't change my theory that society needs to change the attitudes of namely men when it comes to sex/prostitution (but of women too).
One of the things that's really sad about this issue is that in some places, especially poor countries, many women have to choose between being a prostitute or starving. That is a tragic.
It wouldn't change the basic exchange. It wouldn't change the fact that the workers would be giving access to themselves (body and soul) to anyone would chose to pay the fee. I know that people like to pretend that it's a simple business exchange but I think there's still some kind of emotional price these workers pay. How does it feel to the workers to accept people inside themselves who repulse them? How does it feel to be treated like an object rather than a person? How does it feel to trade an experience that has the potential to be deep as a casual commodity?
I know it seems old fashioned to worry about these questions! These are questions about soul and bonding and sex and they are asked because humans are built to be affected by the experience. To sell it as if it was not linked to a person's feelings is to deny this and wash away an individual OR the individual's ability to really feel.
But, I know many people think it's aalll, okay. Anything, everything, goes to some people...
I believe that as we allow questionable practices (such as selling sex for money) to become casual and commonplace, humans are moving away from spiritual enlightenment rather than towards it.
Who is to allow? Questionable upon whose terms? Again, why is porn ok but not this? Whose morality are we to live by? If you choose yours to impose on another, can I do the same with mine? Just doesn't seem right to me, to make that decision for anyone else.
If someone chooses a profession for whatever reason, and can do it safely, I may not get the pompoms flying over fucking for money but if it's gonna happen anyway, let's get it done right for all involved.
Has anyone read any?
Or fetishists?
You're leaving out so many...who just want to get laid and get off.
(also don't forget about Craigslist
Anyway, I think both porn and actual sex in whatever form satisfy in some sense, paid or not.
If all parties are cool with it - and not in the "hey, I'm an idiot and anything goes!" sense alluded to earlier - then have at it. It's not your or my business...or, shouldn't be.
With ya the last part of what you said though.
Women leaves the best tips
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
By the way, as a side note, one of the things I've always respected about people like George Carlin, Bill Maher, Amy Goodman, James Howard Kunstler, Edward Abbey, etc., etc. and even some fellow PJ fans here is that even when I disagree with some of the things they've said- maybe even strongly disagree- they always challenge my thinking and push me further in the direction of critical thinking.
Definitely, it's really in issue that is comp oedema of a rock and a hard place. I don't actually disagree with any of the points made about the benefits of legalizing. It's just that one has to pick anise on this one.... and I guess my sensibilities when it comes to what prostitution really means to women in society and what the act of people using them in this way says about attitudes towards women and sex in general trumps all the logical points for legalization.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I see what you're saying; as a woman - hell, as a human being - I want to be treated with the respect I extend toward others. But (and putting sex trafficking aside, because I think it's separate from prostitution), if someone is willing to enter into such a transaction, taking away the crime factor, making it safe for the parties, the benefits are sensible.
Again, porn is OK? The modeling industry is OK? All the other ways people "sell" themselves?
I value the intimacy of sex - hell, even kissing. But, I know others don't (nor do they have to).
Q: In this climate that exists, do you see any value in legal prostitution as a way to empower young women to take the power of sex back. Could seeing a strong confident woman who holds power by placing value on her organs be a good influence on a generation of girls who often have nothing to show for their sexual encounters but shame?
Therefore it feels wrong to legalize it since no one should be abused.
Making bad, self-abusive decisions is practically all we do with our short time in this life lol!! Might as well get used to it, doesn't mean we can't try harder, it only means we have to be realistic about what choices people will make and what consequences those choices will render.