There's been a lot of talk in Canada about prostitution thanks to the government striking down the laws, and a new bill being tabled. ...I think this does absolutely parallel the drug war discussion in that it is criminalizing private morality - if the transaction is a mutual agreement, the only risk is to the people making the agreement - there is no risk of harm to anyone else. It's like saying the war on drugs is also a war on crime....it's just not. It's a war on 'normal' people.
The problems people (often mistakenly) associate with prostitution - namely human trafficking, assault and addiction, are dealt with by other aspects of our legal and social systems.
I disagree with the people painting all sex workers as victims and/or addicts. I was friends with an escort about 15 years ago...she smoked some weed, but was not addicted to anything. Her sister introduced her to the business, and she did it for money....trust me, this girl was not ruined by prostitution....some would say she had questionable morals and/or esteem/mental problems....what it came down to - she was having a lot of sex with different people anyway, and decided to get paid. Her choice; who am I to judge? If I felt she needed help (which I didn't), it would have been from social programs, not the fucking police!
I also dated a woman who admitted a couple months into our relationship that he had worked as an escort a few years before we met. She called an agency and applied for work, again for money. She managed to get set up with a college degree, starting a legit business with it, and bought beautiful loft - all debt free. She also claimed that she had enough regular clients to stop advertising after a while...if that's true, she wasn't even really sleeping with strangers any longer. When I was with her, aside from cigs, she lived the cleanest lifestyle of any girl I've ever dated...she was def the fittest...maybe a little nuts, but I've known plenty of nuts non-prostitutes.
So I would say that making assumptions like '90% of them are addicts' or 'most of them didn't choose to get into it' is inaccurate, and irresponsible, as it contributes to the stigma that these women live under. This stigma prevents honest discussion, again, in the same way that the stigma against drugs has retarded drug war reform....People who partake don't admit it. I did a little googling and found old studies suggesting that 69%-80%, and more recent ones that showed 15%-20% of US males had paid for sex at least once. I would be willing to bet the former is closer to the truth, because as evidenced in this thread - people don't admit to committing crimes very freely....So again - the people who are in the 'all men who sleep with hookers are scum' camp, are probably talking about a close family member or beloved friend...you just can't personalize this because they haven't told you, for fear of your judgement.
Forcing this 'problem' underground, criminalizing aspects of it, isolating the workers, and stigmatizing them as victims is what gives men all of the power in this transaction. It places women in danger by casting them as second class people unworthy of the respect we all deserve, by preventing vetting and hiring bodyguards/drivers, and by by making them scared to go to police....if the women are the type who can separate emotion from sex, and you're not - you see this as something that robs a woman of her soul or whatever...that's not on them, it's on you. If they're in the business because they're addicts, or mentally unwell, or abused....their problem is abuse or addiction or mental illness, not prostitution! Same as drugs....it's not going away. Harm reduction - legalize, regulate, educate.
Well-said, sir! Thank you for yet another valuable perspective on this.
Always so nice to me. Thanks hedo You too Leeze. just proof read my post...lots of f ups, too lazy to fix them right now, I'm wiped... Also a lot of the hypocrisy typical to these discussions, ie: the fact that I'm not still with said possibly-slightly-mentally-ill-woman in part because of the sex work stigma I'm bitching about. ...Not to mention the hypocrisy of calling someone 'nuts' right before bitching about contributing to a stigma. (hmmm...ok maybe it wasn't mental illness, just evangelical veganism )
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
You missed my point. "I always reward my husband for doing nice things". Wasn't foreplay.
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
You missed my point. "I always reward my husband for doing nice things". Wasn't foreplay.
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
You missed my point. "I always reward my husband for doing nice things". Wasn't foreplay.
Its not payment either.Its just Two consenting adults knowing what pleases and makes life easier for each other. I've been with my wife since High School(28 years) and not a day/night goes by I still don't try for intimate time.(Its fun) If after working all day and doing busy stuff like the Gym and taking care of dogs etc,I can make her life easier by doing and helping in the daily duties,chores just to make the end of her day a little less hectic and stressful.then My chances of a well rested partner who isn't to tired to fool around increases.So we both benefit.This of course Dosent always work but it sure does help.Win/Win.I still help no matter what and without expectations so its not a payoff.
I will say it becomes much easier once you get kids out of house and you become empty nesters.Dont let anyone tell you its not glorious,because it is.lol
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
You missed my point. "I always reward my husband for doing nice things". Wasn't foreplay.
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
You missed my point. "I always reward my husband for doing nice things". Wasn't foreplay.
Its not payment either.Its just Two consenting adults knowing what pleases and makes life easier for each other. I've been with my wife since High School(28 years) and not a day/night goes by I still don't try for intimate time.(Its fun) If after working all day and doing busy stuff like the Gym and taking care of dogs etc,I can make her life easier by doing and helping in the daily duties,chores just to make the end of her day a little less hectic and stressful.then My chances of a well rested partner who isn't to tired to fool around increases.So we both benefit.This of course Dosent always work but it sure does help.Win/Win.I still help no matter what and without expectations so its not a payoff.
I will say it becomes much easier once you get kids out of house and you become empty nesters.Dont let anyone tell you its not glorious,because it is.lol
Yeah I get it and if you read my post above even said we all do it. Was just pointing out the hypocrisy of saying that it's bad for men to pay for sex then in same post saying she rewards her husband with sex if he does things for her. All good RR.
Would you consider doing the dishes ,Vacuuming the rugs, Bathing the dogs,and folding a couple loads of laundry so the wife Dosent has to when she gets home ,foreplay?lol
Well, at my house, my husband always gets rewarded for doing nice things for me! So, I imagine your wife would also be kindly disposed towards you for that kind of help.
So you use sex to get something. Hmmm kinda sounds like your placing a value on sex like a ..........
I'm not trying to pile it on or be mean just ironic that you charge your man but are against other women charging as well.
Course everyone does it.
No,Callen,That was under the "foreplay" question.So,we are not talking about payment,more about setting a mood.The Professor is just agreeing with me that a little help around the house and making my ladies life less hectic can make life easier and more happy and exciting for all involved in the universal spirit of cooperation.
i would say though that the fact remains: many, if not most, women have prerequisites to sex that are unconnected to their actual desire to do the act or not. Just the way it is, and in a very abstract, idealogical way, it is a form of prostitution.
It's actually an example of what might make a person want to have sex with another person. Being helped is a huge gift to a woman and it usually evokes a good response. Love given in both directions is NOT AT ALL related to prostitution!!!
It's actually an example of what might make a person want to have sex with another person. Being helped is a huge gift to a woman and it usually evokes a good response. Love given in both directions is NOT AT ALL related to prostitution!!!
It's actually an example of what might make a person want to have sex with another person. Being helped is a huge gift to a woman and it usually evokes a good response. Love given in both directions is NOT AT ALL related to prostitution!!!
I agree with you on this one.I do see Callens point though.
Well-said, sir! Thank you for yet another valuable perspective on this.
Always so nice to me. Thanks hedo You too Leeze. just proof read my post...lots of f ups, too lazy to fix them right now, I'm wiped... Also a lot of the hypocrisy typical to these discussions, ie: the fact that I'm not still with said possibly-slightly-mentally-ill-woman in part because of the sex work stigma I'm bitching about. ...Not to mention the hypocrisy of calling someone 'nuts' right before bitching about contributing to a stigma. (hmmm...ok maybe it wasn't mental illness, just evangelical veganism )
But of course, K - I calls 'em like I see 'em
And to plagiarize Seinfeld, there's a difference/distinction between relationship sex and independent sex.
Well-said, sir! Thank you for yet another valuable perspective on this.
Always so nice to me. Thanks hedo You too Leeze. just proof read my post...lots of f ups, too lazy to fix them right now, I'm wiped... Also a lot of the hypocrisy typical to these discussions, ie: the fact that I'm not still with said possibly-slightly-mentally-ill-woman in part because of the sex work stigma I'm bitching about. ...Not to mention the hypocrisy of calling someone 'nuts' right before bitching about contributing to a stigma. (hmmm...ok maybe it wasn't mental illness, just evangelical veganism )
But of course, K - I calls 'em like I see 'em
And to plagiarize Seinfeld, there's a difference/distinction between relationship sex and independent sex.
Absolutely....and it should be up to the individual to apply their own morality to each 'type' of sex, and live their lives accordingly...not the courts.
I say this from the position that the overwhelming majority of people who are prostitutes are women... why give men more control over womens bodies and actions than they already have? What is the reasoning behind the legalisation of prostitution? Is it simply to give women more protection somehow? Or is it to legally protect male clients from prosecution? As far as im concerned if someone wants to trade money for sex then whose business is it if both parties are consenting adults and there is no duress?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
I say this from the position that the overwhelming majority of people who are prostitutes are women... why give men more control over womens bodies and actions than they already have? What is the reasoning behind the legalisation of prostitution? Is it simply to give women more protection somehow? Or is it to legally protect male clients from prosecution? As far as im concerned if someone wants to trade money for sex then whose business is it if both parties are consenting adults and there is no duress?
Does it matter what the reasoning is, if as you say they are consenting and there is no duress? If it does matter...then I'd say it's both...I don't think legalization gives men more control of women's bodies....but it does give women who choose this line of work much more control over the transaction.
It kind of seems like some people think that prostitutes are generally tough women who are making their own choices. That they're somehow empowered. This isn't true in most cases though. The great majority of prostitutes do it out of pure desperation, and some do it under absolute duress in a very dirty and corrupt "business" where their safety is regularly threatened not by the johns, but by pimps. I don't think that a lot of prostitutes can be places in the same category as "consenting adults". I don't think that most of them "choose" this line of work. They are often forced into this line of work because of addiction, abuse, and horrible circumstances. I feel like the "industry" has been given a shiny lacquer in a lot of people's minds, when in fact it is for the most part a dirty, horrible trade where women are sinking lower and lower in their lives, and that's not good for anyone. Meanwhile, all these men out there still think it's okay to go around fucking these hurting and vulnerable women for money. As long as they pay and don't just go around raping them, it's fine. [-X
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
maybe cathouses should be set up w/ the applications & programs like gun store owners use. fill out the application, ID, yada yada yada, sign the dotted line giving them permission to look through your (criminal) record.
bingo we have a decent john... which-ever lady flicks your switch, take her hand & she'll walk you to your room... it's a $25-$45 license renewed annually... simple fucking stuff
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
This is the basis of my support for legalization. I have no actual dog in this fight. I don't know any prostitutes (or if I do I don't know that they are), I have never availed myself of their services, and I plan to go to my grave without ever paying another person for sex. To me this is a public health and public safety issue, as well as an issue of self-determination. Prostitution is often called the world's oldest profession. It has always existed, and will likely always continue to exist. By calling for legalization I'm not promoting prostitution, I'm looking for the support structure of social services to make it safer for everyone. There are often "funny" news stories of people calling the cops after getting ripped off in a drug deal. Crazy! Who would call the cops when their illegal activy goes sideways? The reality is that with prostitution being illegal, the prostitutes have no recourse when they are beaten or raped, by johns or their pimps. Making it legal allows them to have some recourse and protection they don't currently have.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
It kind of seems like some people think that prostitutes are generally tough women who are making their own choices. That they're somehow empowered. This isn't true in most cases though. The great majority of prostitutes do it out of pure desperation, and some do it under absolute duress in a very dirty and corrupt "business" where their safety is regularly threatened not by the johns, but by pimps. I don't think that a lot of prostitutes can be places in the same category as "consenting adults". I don't think that most of them "choose" this line of work. They are often forced into this line of work because of addiction, abuse, and horrible circumstances. I feel like the "industry" has been given a shiny lacquer in a lot of people's minds, when in fact it is for the most part a dirty, horrible trade where women are sinking lower and lower in their lives, and that's not good for anyone. Meanwhile, all these men out there still think it's okay to go around fucking these hurting and vulnerable women for money. As long as they pay and don't just go around raping them, it's fine. [-X
How much experience do you have with prostitutes, PJS? Sounds to me like you're making it up as you go, based on your opinion of the business. I addressed pretty much every aspect of your post in a previous comment and you either missed it or ignored my points. You are focused on a certain aspect of this business that does not represent the majority of the people who partake. Someone already pointed this out (maybe rgambs?) - that the situations you speak of involve mostly unregulated street level prostitution. Women who work in rub n tugs or as escorts are not usually addicts, or being abused by pimps. If they were, they would either not be working there, or they would have no clients. Either way - as I mentioned earlier, there are laws in place to deal with those issues. Legalization would regulate the health and safety aspects of the business, and allow the women to vet their clients, and make it easier for them to make it a legit business (thus opening doors for benefits etc). The addicts, the diseased, the abused, would be much more easily identifiable in this situation, and easier to help....they would also not feel threatened by looking for help. I don't know what the stats are percetage wise regarding street workers vs massage/escort workers...but i do know that when we had a serial killer here in edmonton preying on sex workers, it was always the street level girls who went missing. The escorts and parlour girls, who have other employees in the building, or drivers/bodyguards with them, are exponentially safer than the street walkers forced alone into industrial areas to meet johns in their cars....that is not shiny lacquer, it's fact.
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
I've got problems with porn too, namely because it's a seedy industry that more often than not chews up incredibly vulnerable people, often very young people, and shits them out, which is when they often actually do become prostitutes. Not to mention how it completely warps people's ideas about sex, especially youths. However, I don't really understand your need to treat it with the "if porn is legal, prostitution should be too" idea. To me, it's two different subjects. But at any rate, there is a big difference between men watching a video where two people who consider each other "colleagues" and usually get paid decently have sex and getting in their car and finding a hooker and paying her $20 to blow him in the front seat so that she can go buy some crack or afford some Wonder Bread and some Kraft Dinner for the week. But anyway, even if porn and prostiution were more comparable, I don't see how that would change things. Just because one thing is doesn't mean another has to be. It's not an all or nothing world, right?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
It kind of seems like some people think that prostitutes are generally tough women who are making their own choices. That they're somehow empowered. This isn't true in most cases though. The great majority of prostitutes do it out of pure desperation, and some do it under absolute duress in a very dirty and corrupt "business" where their safety is regularly threatened not by the johns, but by pimps. I don't think that a lot of prostitutes can be places in the same category as "consenting adults". I don't think that most of them "choose" this line of work. They are often forced into this line of work because of addiction, abuse, and horrible circumstances. I feel like the "industry" has been given a shiny lacquer in a lot of people's minds, when in fact it is for the most part a dirty, horrible trade where women are sinking lower and lower in their lives, and that's not good for anyone. Meanwhile, all these men out there still think it's okay to go around fucking these hurting and vulnerable women for money. As long as they pay and don't just go around raping them, it's fine. [-X
How much experience do you have with prostitutes, PJS? Sounds to me like you're making it up as you go, based on your opinion of the business. I addressed pretty much every aspect of your post in a previous comment and you either missed it or ignored my points. You are focused on a certain aspect of this business that does not represent the majority of the people who partake. Someone already pointed this out (maybe rgambs?) - that the situations you speak of involve mostly unregulated street level prostitution. Women who work in rub n tugs or as escorts are not usually addicts, or being abused by pimps. If they were, they would either not be working there, or they would have no clients. Either way - as I mentioned earlier, there are laws in place to deal with those issues. Legalization would regulate the health and safety aspects of the business, and allow the women to vet their clients, and make it easier for them to make it a legit business (thus opening doors for benefits etc). The addicts, the diseased, the abused, would be much more easily identifiable in this situation, and easier to help....they would also not feel threatened by looking for help. I don't know what the stats are percetage wise regarding street workers vs massage/escort workers...but i do know that when we had a serial killer here in edmonton preying on sex workers, it was always the street level girls who went missing. The escorts and parlour girls, who have other employees in the building, or drivers/bodyguards with them, are exponentially safer than the street walkers forced alone into industrial areas to meet johns in their cars....that is not shiny lacquer, it's fact.
I have of course been generalizing, and also focusing on the negatives. Of course they aren't all addicts (not that I ever suggested that), or struggling financially (although most would have to be to do this job), etc. But I think you are underestimating how many are, and sound a bit naive when it comes to just how "legit" prostitution businesses are for the working women. Also, are you thinking locally? I'm thinking globally. Globally, there is no way that the majority of prostitutes fit into your idea of what's going on in the first world. But anyway, I am fully aware of all the things you're talking about, and have already said a few times that I completely understand all the arguments for the legalization of prostitution. I'm really not arguing with anyone here. But for all the reasons I've mentioned, I don't think those arguments outweigh mine (for me). I don't even think I LIKE my feelings about it; I just can't help it. But I do think you are greatly overestimating the quality of life that rub n tug girls and escorts generally have (with exceptions, of course. Again, generalizing... which we have to do or else we'd be qualifying everything we say for eternity). No, it's not USUALLY as bad as streetwalkers. But it's not good either. FYI, many of those women have had their passports taken away from them, etc. Some of those girls are living a nightmare too. Just because it looks more legit and seems more "shiny" doesn't make it so. FWIW, I also think that women probably generally have a much clearer view of what's going on with female prostitutes that most men.
Finally, nothing of what you've said addresses the whole issue of male perspectives on sex and women in society, and that is a big part of my objection to legalized prostitution.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
I've got problems with porn too, namely because it's a seedy industry that more often than not chews up incredibly vulnerable people, often very young people, and shits them out, which is when they often actually do become prostitutes. Not to mention how it completely warps people's ideas about sex, especially youths. However, I don't really understand your need to treat it with the "if porn is legal, prostitution should be too" idea. To me, it's two different subjects. But at any rate, there is a big difference between men watching a video where two people who consider each other "colleagues" and usually get paid decently have sex and getting in their car and finding a hooker and paying her $20 to blow him in the front seat so that she can go buy some crack or afford some Wonder Bread and some Kraft Dinner for the week. But anyway, even if porn and prostiution were more comparable, I don't see how that would change things. Just because one thing is doesn't mean another has to be. It's not an all or nothing world, right?
It's not really a need for me, it's more of a natural thought process; I think they're essentially the same thing - two (or more) people consenting to engage in sexual acts for which they're paid.
Totally agree that it's not all or none, but if let's say the only positive outcome of legalization would be better health care/safety, wouldn't that alone be worth it?
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
I've got problems with porn too, namely because it's a seedy industry that more often than not chews up incredibly vulnerable people, often very young people, and shits them out, which is when they often actually do become prostitutes. Not to mention how it completely warps people's ideas about sex, especially youths. However, I don't really understand your need to treat it with the "if porn is legal, prostitution should be too" idea. To me, it's two different subjects. But at any rate, there is a big difference between men watching a video where two people who consider each other "colleagues" and usually get paid decently have sex and getting in their car and finding a hooker and paying her $20 to blow him in the front seat so that she can go buy some crack or afford some Wonder Bread and some Kraft Dinner for the week. But anyway, even if porn and prostitution were more comparable, I don't see how that would change things. Just because one thing is doesn't mean another has to be. It's not an all or nothing world, right?
It's not really a need for me, it's more of a natural thought process; I think they're essentially the same thing - two (or more) people consenting to engage in sexual acts for which they're paid.
Totally agree that it's not all or none, but if let's say the only positive outcome of legalization would be better health care/safety, wouldn't that alone be worth it?
I completely understand the logic behind thinking that it would be worth it. I just don't agree that it would be. Safety is very important obviously ... but it's not always the end all and be all when considering something. Weighting all options, and taking my own strong feelings about the underlying negative implications of prostitution, I think legalizing is more harmful in the long run. Of course, I'm all for any other tactic that might work when it comes to making people safer (not the Johns though... to be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about them).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
I've got problems with porn too, namely because it's a seedy industry that more often than not chews up incredibly vulnerable people, often very young people, and shits them out, which is when they often actually do become prostitutes. Not to mention how it completely warps people's ideas about sex, especially youths. However, I don't really understand your need to treat it with the "if porn is legal, prostitution should be too" idea. To me, it's two different subjects. But at any rate, there is a big difference between men watching a video where two people who consider each other "colleagues" and usually get paid decently have sex and getting in their car and finding a hooker and paying her $20 to blow him in the front seat so that she can go buy some crack or afford some Wonder Bread and some Kraft Dinner for the week. But anyway, even if porn and prostitution were more comparable, I don't see how that would change things. Just because one thing is doesn't mean another has to be. It's not an all or nothing world, right?
It's not really a need for me, it's more of a natural thought process; I think they're essentially the same thing - two (or more) people consenting to engage in sexual acts for which they're paid.
Totally agree that it's not all or none, but if let's say the only positive outcome of legalization would be better health care/safety, wouldn't that alone be worth it?
I completely understand the logic behind thinking that it would be worth it. I just don't agree that it would be. Safety is very important obviously ... but it's not always the end all and be all when considering something. Weighting all options, and taking my own strong feelings about the underlying negative implications of prostitution, I think legalizing is more harmful in the long run. Of course, I'm all for any other tactic that might work when it comes to making people safer (not the Johns though... to be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about them).
Do you have another solution in mind?
I disagree with you saying that safety is not the end all and be all. Everyone should be able to go home after they are done work. To me that is the most important thing here.
If this has been answered already, I've missed it, so I'll ask again - why is no one up in arms about porn being legal? Is it so different?
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
I've got problems with porn too, namely because it's a seedy industry that more often than not chews up incredibly vulnerable people, often very young people, and shits them out, which is when they often actually do become prostitutes. Not to mention how it completely warps people's ideas about sex, especially youths. However, I don't really understand your need to treat it with the "if porn is legal, prostitution should be too" idea. To me, it's two different subjects. But at any rate, there is a big difference between men watching a video where two people who consider each other "colleagues" and usually get paid decently have sex and getting in their car and finding a hooker and paying her $20 to blow him in the front seat so that she can go buy some crack or afford some Wonder Bread and some Kraft Dinner for the week. But anyway, even if porn and prostitution were more comparable, I don't see how that would change things. Just because one thing is doesn't mean another has to be. It's not an all or nothing world, right?
It's not really a need for me, it's more of a natural thought process; I think they're essentially the same thing - two (or more) people consenting to engage in sexual acts for which they're paid.
Totally agree that it's not all or none, but if let's say the only positive outcome of legalization would be better health care/safety, wouldn't that alone be worth it?
I completely understand the logic behind thinking that it would be worth it. I just don't agree that it would be. Safety is very important obviously ... but it's not always the end all and be all when considering something. Weighting all options, and taking my own strong feelings about the underlying negative implications of prostitution, I think legalizing is more harmful in the long run. Of course, I'm all for any other tactic that might work when it comes to making people safer (not the Johns though... to be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about them).
Do you have another solution in mind?
I disagree with you saying that safety is not the end all and be all. Everyone should be able to go home after they are done work. To me that is the most important thing here.
I think confronting the social factors that lead women to be prostitutes and men to think it's okay to use them in a MUCH more proactive way would be the solution instead of normalizing the symptoms of the sickness.
Fair enough that you think that. I don't, all things considered. Women should be prevented from partaking in the practice at all costs. Of course that's no easy task and fully acknowledge what others have said about that here.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
why not! and wenches were the only thing that were once legal
scheming flirting screwing porn gays lying were once illegal too who should really care anymore but im different bc i come from a christian background and highly esteem it...dont feel any love for any of the above
Comments
The problems people (often mistakenly) associate with prostitution - namely human trafficking, assault and addiction, are dealt with by other aspects of our legal and social systems.
I disagree with the people painting all sex workers as victims and/or addicts. I was friends with an escort about 15 years ago...she smoked some weed, but was not addicted to anything. Her sister introduced her to the business, and she did it for money....trust me, this girl was not ruined by prostitution....some would say she had questionable morals and/or esteem/mental problems....what it came down to - she was having a lot of sex with different people anyway, and decided to get paid. Her choice; who am I to judge? If I felt she needed help (which I didn't), it would have been from social programs, not the fucking police!
I also dated a woman who admitted a couple months into our relationship that he had worked as an escort a few years before we met. She called an agency and applied for work, again for money. She managed to get set up with a college degree, starting a legit business with it, and bought beautiful loft - all debt free. She also claimed that she had enough regular clients to stop advertising after a while...if that's true, she wasn't even really sleeping with strangers any longer. When I was with her, aside from cigs, she lived the cleanest lifestyle of any girl I've ever dated...she was def the fittest...maybe a little nuts, but I've known plenty of nuts non-prostitutes.
So I would say that making assumptions like '90% of them are addicts' or 'most of them didn't choose to get into it' is inaccurate, and irresponsible, as it contributes to the stigma that these women live under. This stigma prevents honest discussion, again, in the same way that the stigma against drugs has retarded drug war reform....People who partake don't admit it. I did a little googling and found old studies suggesting that 69%-80%, and more recent ones that showed 15%-20% of US males had paid for sex at least once. I would be willing to bet the former is closer to the truth, because as evidenced in this thread - people don't admit to committing crimes very freely....So again - the people who are in the 'all men who sleep with hookers are scum' camp, are probably talking about a close family member or beloved friend...you just can't personalize this because they haven't told you, for fear of your judgement.
Forcing this 'problem' underground, criminalizing aspects of it, isolating the workers, and stigmatizing them as victims is what gives men all of the power in this transaction. It places women in danger by casting them as second class people unworthy of the respect we all deserve, by preventing vetting and hiring bodyguards/drivers, and by by making them scared to go to police....if the women are the type who can separate emotion from sex, and you're not - you see this as something that robs a woman of her soul or whatever...that's not on them, it's on you. If they're in the business because they're addicts, or mentally unwell, or abused....their problem is abuse or addiction or mental illness, not prostitution!
Same as drugs....it's not going away.
Harm reduction - legalize, regulate, educate.
just proof read my post...lots of f ups, too lazy to fix them right now, I'm wiped...
Also a lot of the hypocrisy typical to these discussions, ie: the fact that I'm not still with said possibly-slightly-mentally-ill-woman in part because of the sex work stigma I'm bitching about. ...Not to mention the hypocrisy of calling someone 'nuts' right before bitching about contributing to a stigma. (hmmm...ok maybe it wasn't mental illness, just evangelical veganism
I've been with my wife since High School(28 years) and not a day/night goes by I still don't try for intimate time.(Its fun) If after working all day and doing busy stuff like the Gym and taking care of dogs etc,I can make her life easier by doing and helping in the daily duties,chores just to make the end of her day a little less hectic and stressful.then My chances of a well rested partner who isn't to tired to fool around increases.So we both benefit.This of course Dosent always work but it sure does help.Win/Win.I still help no matter what and without expectations so its not a payoff.
I will say it becomes much easier once you get kids out of house and you become empty nesters.Dont let anyone tell you its not glorious,because it is.lol
It's actually an example of what might make a person want to have sex with another person. Being helped is a huge gift to a woman and it usually evokes a good response. Love given in both directions is NOT AT ALL related to prostitution!!!
And to plagiarize Seinfeld, there's a difference/distinction between relationship sex and independent sex.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If it does matter...then I'd say it's both...I don't think legalization gives men more control of women's bodies....but it does give women who choose this line of work much more control over the transaction.
By the way, I don't wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to this; I've said before that I think it's sad to sell or even give away something so precious, but that's me. Who am I to impose what I would choose on someone else?
If this is going to happen - as it has for ages - why not make it so that these women (*edit - and men), should they choose to remain in the profession, DO have control over that choice? Eliminate the pimps, reduce the health risks, maybe even remove the stigma of those who want or need to buy the services.
bingo we have a decent john... which-ever lady flicks your switch, take her hand & she'll walk you to your room... it's a $25-$45 license renewed annually... simple fucking stuff
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
You are focused on a certain aspect of this business that does not represent the majority of the people who partake. Someone already pointed this out (maybe rgambs?) - that the situations you speak of involve mostly unregulated street level prostitution. Women who work in rub n tugs or as escorts are not usually addicts, or being abused by pimps. If they were, they would either not be working there, or they would have no clients. Either way - as I mentioned earlier, there are laws in place to deal with those issues.
Legalization would regulate the health and safety aspects of the business, and allow the women to vet their clients, and make it easier for them to make it a legit business (thus opening doors for benefits etc). The addicts, the diseased, the abused, would be much more easily identifiable in this situation, and easier to help....they would also not feel threatened by looking for help.
I don't know what the stats are percetage wise regarding street workers vs massage/escort workers...but i do know that when we had a serial killer here in edmonton preying on sex workers, it was always the street level girls who went missing. The escorts and parlour girls, who have other employees in the building, or drivers/bodyguards with them, are exponentially safer than the street walkers forced alone into industrial areas to meet johns in their cars....that is not shiny lacquer, it's fact.
Finally, nothing of what you've said addresses the whole issue of male perspectives on sex and women in society, and that is a big part of my objection to legalized prostitution.
Totally agree that it's not all or none, but if let's say the only positive outcome of legalization would be better health care/safety, wouldn't that alone be worth it?
I disagree with you saying that safety is not the end all and be all. Everyone should be able to go home after they are done work. To me that is the most important thing here.
Fair enough that you think that. I don't, all things considered. Women should be prevented from partaking in the practice at all costs. Of course that's no easy task and fully acknowledge what others have said about that here.
and wenches
were the only
thing that were
once legal
scheming
flirting
screwing
porn
gays
lying
were once illegal too
who should really
care anymore
but im different
bc i come from a christian
background and highly
esteem it...dont feel any
love for any of the above
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."