No no, shoot to injure only when the cops' lives/safety is in jeopardy. Definitely not when someone is running away! If they train enough shooting without killing would probably be easier. Get them super duper good at using the guns and I think they could manage it. No, I don't think that is a good argument. I think it is reasonable to use a gun for self-defense without intending to kill. The intention would be to stop them, not to kill them. Sure, you could accidentally kill them anyway, but that isn't the same as their shoot to kill philosophy. Yes, tasers and bean bag guns are an okay option.... although tasers have killed a whole lot of people, so I don't think they should be considered non-lethal weapons at all. I think it is a huge mistake to do that because it leads to cops using them on people who have only committed minor offenses, and on kids and drunk teens, or simply when a cop is trying to avoid skinning a knee or whatever. They don't take the effects of tasers seriously enough. Of course, living in Vancouver, with the whole Robert Dziekański horror, I guess I'm sensitive about that issue.
If police officer's are trained by this super duper philosohy they are risking their life, partners life, and citizens. The #1 goal of any first responder is to get home safe...period!! Judged by 12 then carried by 6. I always get a kick out of the "family member" saying "why didn't the pooolice shoot the gun out of his hand"?
Vastly different situation, but how about the 9/11 first responders? Was their #1 goal to get home alive or save people? Honest question
Edit: I am actually kind of disturbed by this philosophy. First responders (for the most part) work for the government to serve the people. Now I obviously completely agree that all first responders should be extremely concerned with their well being, but what if that was a solider who said something like that. What if that was a marine who said, hey, I may have broken the law and committed war crimes but all I was concerned with was getting home. That is not acceptable, so why would it be acceptable for police. You chose a profession where you may not go home at the end of the day, and I am incredibly grateful for it, but as part of your duty, you are expected to be better under pressure and than an average person and put your life on the line because that is what you chose to do. As awful as that is to say, it is true.
There's a difference between a soldier and a police officer, Cliffy.
I did just eat a delicious triple pepper, yellow squash, onion, bean and jack cheese "fajita" that I grew/produced everything but the tortilla, so maybe I am out to lunch.
I understand and accept that the position I take carries with it a culture of unhealthy disrespect for police authority, if you can't understand and accept that the position you take carries with it an unhealthy submission to police authority, that's your problem. Ultimately, I want to meet in the middle, where there is accountability in policing and respect for police. Can you say the same?
Do you think the current system sufficiently holds police accountable when they abuse power? Should police officers' official account of an incident be considered above suspicion, or do you accept the conclusion suggested by the wealth of evidence that shows they are OFTEN untruthful?
Tell me when you have ever been even remotely close to the middle?
I have blasted police in the Tamir Rice, Kelly Thomas, Daniel Shaver cases off the top of my head. Tell me one case that has presented itself on these threads where you have sided with the officer.
I seriously think you have never once sided with the officer on this forum. If you can point me to where you have... I can look at you in another light.
Most of the cases we discuss are pretty controversial, and I don't view such complicated matters in a binary, right or wrong, kind of way. It's always degrees and shades. I was against the officer ordering Bland out of her vehicle for sassing him, but when she violently resisted arrest, he did what he had to do. I definitely think there was at least one case that I thought was cut and dry, not abuse, but I don't remember for sure.
I am usually less concerned with the big headline shootings and more concerned with the minor abuses that occur much more frequently and create the environment for the larger ones to occur. The cops who smack people around for mouthing off and stuff like that. I honestly think you would be shocked Thirty at how much that happens if you were to consume media that chronicles those "minor" abuses.
There's no doubt abuse does happen No doubt corruption happens. It just seems like the bar for cops is set unrealistically high. With their job and responsibility it should be set higher, but not unrealistically high. It was hard to find exact data, but one report I saw said 2500 teachers lost their license over a 5 year study due to sexual misconduct. Doctors, investors, bankers, it seems like anything you can think of you will find a higher rate than expected for misconduct. Yet no one seems to care about any of that. Our local high school even has 2 teachers currently on paid leave, which usually means 1 thing. But no one cares, it isn't in the news or a big political discussion. The candidates don't talk about it, no one asked during the debates if student lives matter.
With 600,000 police and millions of stops a year there is going to be some problems. When a story about a shooting or abuse comes out, it's reported as every day business and anyone who defends a cop is considered a cop sympathetic and usually ignored or put down. I have seen very few cases of truly unprovoked abuse or shootings. They are out there, you can find them. But for every one case of abuse I can probably find 10,000 instances where nothing went wrong. A traffic ticket, someone being questioned, police answering a call. There are thousands and thousands of stops EVERY day, and for some finding 1 or 2 cases every few days of abuse is enough proof? But you're going to see more and more cases like that cop in Chicago where they are afraid to react because you'll be labeled racist even for arresting a black man soon.
No no, shoot to injure only when the cops' lives/safety is in jeopardy. Definitely not when someone is running away! If they train enough shooting without killing would probably be easier. Get them super duper good at using the guns and I think they could manage it. No, I don't think that is a good argument. I think it is reasonable to use a gun for self-defense without intending to kill. The intention would be to stop them, not to kill them. Sure, you could accidentally kill them anyway, but that isn't the same as their shoot to kill philosophy. Yes, tasers and bean bag guns are an okay option.... although tasers have killed a whole lot of people, so I don't think they should be considered non-lethal weapons at all. I think it is a huge mistake to do that because it leads to cops using them on people who have only committed minor offenses, and on kids and drunk teens, or simply when a cop is trying to avoid skinning a knee or whatever. They don't take the effects of tasers seriously enough. Of course, living in Vancouver, with the whole Robert Dziekański horror, I guess I'm sensitive about that issue.
If police officer's are trained by this super duper philosohy they are risking their life, partners life, and citizens. The #1 goal of any first responder is to get home safe...period!! Judged by 12 then carried by 6. I always get a kick out of the "family member" saying "why didn't the pooolice shoot the gun out of his hand"?
Vastly different situation, but how about the 9/11 first responders? Was their #1 goal to get home alive or save people? Honest question
Edit: I am actually kind of disturbed by this philosophy. First responders (for the most part) work for the government to serve the people. Now I obviously completely agree that all first responders should be extremely concerned with their well being, but what if that was a solider who said something like that. What if that was a marine who said, hey, I may have broken the law and committed war crimes but all I was concerned with was getting home. That is not acceptable, so why would it be acceptable for police. You chose a profession where you may not go home at the end of the day, and I am incredibly grateful for it, but as part of your duty, you are expected to be better under pressure and than an average person and put your life on the line because that is what you chose to do. As awful as that is to say, it is true.
There's a difference between a soldier and a police officer, Cliffy.
They do not do the same jobs.
Fair and agreed. Probably not the best metaphor, but my point remains. We can use the 9/11 one if that is more appropriate. Would any of those fire fighters have gone into the stairs if their #1 goal was to get home? Yes, going home at the end of the day should certainly be a massive priority, but they chose the job knowing that they may not. There is a level of risk and responsibility that goes along with that. I am not pointing to any of the situations being discussed in this thread, just the general philosophy of saving yourself at any and all costs. That is not what the job is, right?
I did just eat a delicious triple pepper, yellow squash, onion, bean and jack cheese "fajita" that I grew/produced everything but the tortilla, so maybe I am out to lunch.
I understand and accept that the position I take carries with it a culture of unhealthy disrespect for police authority, if you can't understand and accept that the position you take carries with it an unhealthy submission to police authority, that's your problem. Ultimately, I want to meet in the middle, where there is accountability in policing and respect for police. Can you say the same?
Do you think the current system sufficiently holds police accountable when they abuse power? Should police officers' official account of an incident be considered above suspicion, or do you accept the conclusion suggested by the wealth of evidence that shows they are OFTEN untruthful?
Tell me when you have ever been even remotely close to the middle?
I have blasted police in the Tamir Rice, Kelly Thomas, Daniel Shaver cases off the top of my head. Tell me one case that has presented itself on these threads where you have sided with the officer.
I seriously think you have never once sided with the officer on this forum. If you can point me to where you have... I can look at you in another light.
Most of the cases we discuss are pretty controversial, and I don't view such complicated matters in a binary, right or wrong, kind of way. It's always degrees and shades. I was against the officer ordering Bland out of her vehicle for sassing him, but when she violently resisted arrest, he did what he had to do. I definitely think there was at least one case that I thought was cut and dry, not abuse, but I don't remember for sure.
I am usually less concerned with the big headline shootings and more concerned with the minor abuses that occur much more frequently and create the environment for the larger ones to occur. The cops who smack people around for mouthing off and stuff like that. I honestly think you would be shocked Thirty at how much that happens if you were to consume media that chronicles those "minor" abuses.
I'm not so obtuse that I can't imagine the minor offences you speak of presenting themselves in various situations.
I don't condone those types of behaviours, but at the same time... I don't get behind obnoxious behaviour that disrespects police, baristas, bank tellers, or people on the street. If you're lippy and you get denied service or even smacked... why would you be surprised?
I prefer to live in a society where words are not sufficient provocation to violence, particularly from those paid to uphold the rule of law. No buts about it.
No no, shoot to injure only when the cops' lives/safety is in jeopardy. Definitely not when someone is running away! If they train enough shooting without killing would probably be easier. Get them super duper good at using the guns and I think they could manage it. No, I don't think that is a good argument. I think it is reasonable to use a gun for self-defense without intending to kill. The intention would be to stop them, not to kill them. Sure, you could accidentally kill them anyway, but that isn't the same as their shoot to kill philosophy. Yes, tasers and bean bag guns are an okay option.... although tasers have killed a whole lot of people, so I don't think they should be considered non-lethal weapons at all. I think it is a huge mistake to do that because it leads to cops using them on people who have only committed minor offenses, and on kids and drunk teens, or simply when a cop is trying to avoid skinning a knee or whatever. They don't take the effects of tasers seriously enough. Of course, living in Vancouver, with the whole Robert Dziekański horror, I guess I'm sensitive about that issue.
If police officer's are trained by this super duper philosohy they are risking their life, partners life, and citizens. The #1 goal of any first responder is to get home safe...period!! Judged by 12 then carried by 6. I always get a kick out of the "family member" saying "why didn't the pooolice shoot the gun out of his hand"?
Vastly different situation, but how about the 9/11 first responders? Was their #1 goal to get home alive or save people? Honest question
Edit: I am actually kind of disturbed by this philosophy. First responders (for the most part) work for the government to serve the people. Now I obviously completely agree that all first responders should be extremely concerned with their well being, but what if that was a solider who said something like that. What if that was a marine who said, hey, I may have broken the law and committed war crimes but all I was concerned with was getting home. That is not acceptable, so why would it be acceptable for police. You chose a profession where you may not go home at the end of the day, and I am incredibly grateful for it, but as part of your duty, you are expected to be better under pressure and than an average person and put your life on the line because that is what you chose to do. As awful as that is to say, it is true.
There's a difference between a soldier and a police officer, Cliffy.
They do not do the same jobs.
Fair and agreed. Probably not the best metaphor, but my point remains. We can use the 9/11 one if that is more appropriate. Would any of those fire fighters have gone into the stairs if their #1 goal was to get home? Yes, going home at the end of the day should certainly be a massive priority, but they chose the job knowing that they may not. There is a level of risk and responsibility that goes along with that. I am not pointing to any of the situations being discussed in this thread, just the general philosophy of saving yourself at any and all costs. That is not what the job is, right?
Here's my question: do you think first responders were running to the buildings because their job compelled them... or was it more of a human nature thing?
No no, shoot to injure only when the cops' lives/safety is in jeopardy. Definitely not when someone is running away! If they train enough shooting without killing would probably be easier. Get them super duper good at using the guns and I think they could manage it. No, I don't think that is a good argument. I think it is reasonable to use a gun for self-defense without intending to kill. The intention would be to stop them, not to kill them. Sure, you could accidentally kill them anyway, but that isn't the same as their shoot to kill philosophy. Yes, tasers and bean bag guns are an okay option.... although tasers have killed a whole lot of people, so I don't think they should be considered non-lethal weapons at all. I think it is a huge mistake to do that because it leads to cops using them on people who have only committed minor offenses, and on kids and drunk teens, or simply when a cop is trying to avoid skinning a knee or whatever. They don't take the effects of tasers seriously enough. Of course, living in Vancouver, with the whole Robert Dziekański horror, I guess I'm sensitive about that issue.
If police officer's are trained by this super duper philosohy they are risking their life, partners life, and citizens. The #1 goal of any first responder is to get home safe...period!! Judged by 12 then carried by 6. I always get a kick out of the "family member" saying "why didn't the pooolice shoot the gun out of his hand"?
Vastly different situation, but how about the 9/11 first responders? Was their #1 goal to get home alive or save people? Honest question
Edit: I am actually kind of disturbed by this philosophy. First responders (for the most part) work for the government to serve the people. Now I obviously completely agree that all first responders should be extremely concerned with their well being, but what if that was a solider who said something like that. What if that was a marine who said, hey, I may have broken the law and committed war crimes but all I was concerned with was getting home. That is not acceptable, so why would it be acceptable for police. You chose a profession where you may not go home at the end of the day, and I am incredibly grateful for it, but as part of your duty, you are expected to be better under pressure and than an average person and put your life on the line because that is what you chose to do. As awful as that is to say, it is true.
There's a difference between a soldier and a police officer, Cliffy.
They do not do the same jobs.
Fair and agreed. Probably not the best metaphor, but my point remains. We can use the 9/11 one if that is more appropriate. Would any of those fire fighters have gone into the stairs if their #1 goal was to get home? Yes, going home at the end of the day should certainly be a massive priority, but they chose the job knowing that they may not. There is a level of risk and responsibility that goes along with that. I am not pointing to any of the situations being discussed in this thread, just the general philosophy of saving yourself at any and all costs. That is not what the job is, right?
Here's my question: do you think first responders were running to the buildings because their job compelled them... or was it more of a human nature thing?
Probably a little bit of both, no? I don't know of any stories about citizens grabbing tools and running up those stairs. Perhaps there were some...
I didn't mean to take this off topic. That point just bugged me. I had a similar conversation with a great friend who is a Philly cop last Saturday. I just don't agree with that philosophy, I certainly get it, but I think police need to be held to a higher standard than most people. I said it before, but they chose that profession knowing the risks and responsibilities. I make mistakes in work and it can be cleaned up, a cop makes a mistake and a life may be lost.
I also feel like this country is so damn scared to have tough conversations. Why is there a massive group of people who feel like they are being killed, targeted and abused by police? Does some officers' bias have an impact on how they do their job (as Hillary said/asked)? If so, how do we fix that? It is so fucking condescending to police for people like Trump and the FOP to say police never fuck up or make mistakes. These things happen and the consequences are massive. Are the vast majority of police great people doing a public service for the right reasons? Of fucking course. Are there issues? It sure as hell seems that way. Let's have that conversation rather than hiding. No one willing to have the conversation is accusing the police of going out and hunting black folks.
I guess there's no abuse here, they were perceived to be criminals so they have no constitutional rights. I guess there's no such thing as police abuse at all, just Judge Dredd's and their infallible judgement.
Mace...
Here's a fresh example for what I was getting at. The pigs are all Judge Dredds now.
Of course there are examples of police abuse and their always will be. Human beings are police officers. Human beings are prone to error and some human beings are not nice. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of cases handled by the police go very professionally!
To prevent the possibility of becoming part of a rare case... here's a tip to anyone: don't break the law. And if you do break the law and encounter police as you break the law... don't resist arrest or engage the officers in a fight. That can't go well for you.
(The other double standard: accountability for police... but not hardened criminals... it's not their fault they resist... my Gawd man... theyre trying not to go to jail)
And some people resist because they're terrified they'll be killed. Because they knew people who were shot when they weren't doing anything, but the cops thought they might. So instead of the patronizing 'do what the cops tell you' talk, maybe consider what the other person's experience has been with police their whole life.
You're going to get another geezuz right now.
People shot not even doing anything because the cops thought they might?
And how about the cop's perspective? Do you think they don't have personal experience with these things gone badly for officers that makes them guarded?
If you don't know to listen to the police when you encounter them... you haven't been taught very well. Mind you... with the recent movements... it's little wonder why people are a little more brazen at the point of contact.
Yes, shot for reaching into their pocket to get their ID, etc. It sounds like you don't have a lot of awareness of how other groups have experienced police. There's several memoirs that are a good read. And yes, many black parents have to repeatedly practice with their kids what to say and how to react to police. It's pretty sad. Not sure about you, but as a white kid, I didn't have to do this.
Ya, well you were probably told to respect your elders and if you are in a situation with the Police FOLLOW their Commands and don't behave like a shithead...there is No Fucking way a Black Panther will tell their Children the Second part and only the first part if the flavor is right.
Actually I wasn't taught to blindly respect authority. As a white person, I internalized the message that police are there to protect me.
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I guess there's no abuse here, they were perceived to be criminals so they have no constitutional rights. I guess there's no such thing as police abuse at all, just Judge Dredd's and their infallible judgement.
Mace...
Here's a fresh example for what I was getting at. The pigs are all Judge Dredds now.
Of course there are examples of police abuse and their always will be. Human beings are police officers. Human beings are prone to error and some human beings are not nice. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of cases handled by the police go very professionally!
To prevent the possibility of becoming part of a rare case... here's a tip to anyone: don't break the law. And if you do break the law and encounter police as you break the law... don't resist arrest or engage the officers in a fight. That can't go well for you.
(The other double standard: accountability for police... but not hardened criminals... it's not their fault they resist... my Gawd man... theyre trying not to go to jail)
And some people resist because they're terrified they'll be killed. Because they knew people who were shot when they weren't doing anything, but the cops thought they might. So instead of the patronizing 'do what the cops tell you' talk, maybe consider what the other person's experience has been with police their whole life.
You're going to get another geezuz right now.
People shot not even doing anything because the cops thought they might?
And how about the cop's perspective? Do you think they don't have personal experience with these things gone badly for officers that makes them guarded?
If you don't know to listen to the police when you encounter them... you haven't been taught very well. Mind you... with the recent movements... it's little wonder why people are a little more brazen at the point of contact.
Yes, shot for reaching into their pocket to get their ID, etc. It sounds like you don't have a lot of awareness of how other groups have experienced police. There's several memoirs that are a good read. And yes, many black parents have to repeatedly practice with their kids what to say and how to react to police. It's pretty sad. Not sure about you, but as a white kid, I didn't have to do this.
Ya, well you were probably told to respect your elders and if you are in a situation with the Police FOLLOW their Commands and don't behave like a shithead...there is No Fucking way a Black Panther will tell their Children the Second part and only the first part if the flavor is right.
Actually I wasn't taught to blindly respect authority. As a white person, I internalized the message that police are there to protect me.
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I guess there's no abuse here, they were perceived to be criminals so they have no constitutional rights. I guess there's no such thing as police abuse at all, just Judge Dredd's and their infallible judgement.
Mace...
Here's a fresh example for what I was getting at. The pigs are all Judge Dredds now.
Of course there are examples of police abuse and their always will be. Human beings are police officers. Human beings are prone to error and some human beings are not nice. Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of cases handled by the police go very professionally!
To prevent the possibility of becoming part of a rare case... here's a tip to anyone: don't break the law. And if you do break the law and encounter police as you break the law... don't resist arrest or engage the officers in a fight. That can't go well for you.
(The other double standard: accountability for police... but not hardened criminals... it's not their fault they resist... my Gawd man... theyre trying not to go to jail)
And some people resist because they're terrified they'll be killed. Because they knew people who were shot when they weren't doing anything, but the cops thought they might. So instead of the patronizing 'do what the cops tell you' talk, maybe consider what the other person's experience has been with police their whole life.
You're going to get another geezuz right now.
People shot not even doing anything because the cops thought they might?
And how about the cop's perspective? Do you think they don't have personal experience with these things gone badly for officers that makes them guarded?
If you don't know to listen to the police when you encounter them... you haven't been taught very well. Mind you... with the recent movements... it's little wonder why people are a little more brazen at the point of contact.
Yes, shot for reaching into their pocket to get their ID, etc. It sounds like you don't have a lot of awareness of how other groups have experienced police. There's several memoirs that are a good read. And yes, many black parents have to repeatedly practice with their kids what to say and how to react to police. It's pretty sad. Not sure about you, but as a white kid, I didn't have to do this.
Ya, well you were probably told to respect your elders and if you are in a situation with the Police FOLLOW their Commands and don't behave like a shithead...there is No Fucking way a Black Panther will tell their Children the Second part and only the first part if the flavor is right.
Actually I wasn't taught to blindly respect authority. As a white person, I internalized the message that police are there to protect me.
Go figure
Yeah. It's crazy how people don't have the same experiences I do, so I know not to generalize this to everyone else. Sometimes even race has a lot to do with these experiences.
No no, shoot to injure only when the cops' lives/safety is in jeopardy. Definitely not when someone is running away! If they train enough shooting without killing would probably be easier. Get them super duper good at using the guns and I think they could manage it. No, I don't think that is a good argument. I think it is reasonable to use a gun for self-defense without intending to kill. The intention would be to stop them, not to kill them. Sure, you could accidentally kill them anyway, but that isn't the same as their shoot to kill philosophy. Yes, tasers and bean bag guns are an okay option.... although tasers have killed a whole lot of people, so I don't think they should be considered non-lethal weapons at all. I think it is a huge mistake to do that because it leads to cops using them on people who have only committed minor offenses, and on kids and drunk teens, or simply when a cop is trying to avoid skinning a knee or whatever. They don't take the effects of tasers seriously enough. Of course, living in Vancouver, with the whole Robert Dziekański horror, I guess I'm sensitive about that issue.
I figured that's what you meant. But was a little unclear when you suggested shooting someone in the ass. Which in my opinion would rarely ever be acceptable since they well are obviously fleeing. The only exception maybe being Thirty's example with a fugative. And yes, a fugative
Did I suggest shooting them in the ass? I know I suggested the gut, but don't recall saying in the ass... Well, if I did, what I really meant was shoot them anywhere it is less likely to kill them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I didn't mean to take this off topic. That point just bugged me. I had a similar conversation with a great friend who is a Philly cop last Saturday. I just don't agree with that philosophy, I certainly get it, but I think police need to be held to a higher standard than most people. I said it before, but they chose that profession knowing the risks and responsibilities. I make mistakes in work and it can be cleaned up, a cop makes a mistake and a life may be lost.
I also feel like this country is so damn scared to have tough conversations. Why is there a massive group of people who feel like they are being killed, targeted and abused by police? Does some officers' bias have an impact on how they do their job (as Hillary said/asked)? If so, how do we fix that? It is so fucking condescending to police for people like Trump and the FOP to say police never fuck up or make mistakes. These things happen and the consequences are massive. Are the vast majority of police great people doing a public service for the right reasons? Of fucking course. Are there issues? It sure as hell seems that way. Let's have that conversation rather than hiding. No one willing to have the conversation is accusing the police of going out and hunting black folks.
I love that "lets have a honest conversation about race" horse shit. Remember when Obummer touched on it in his first year? Remember Jesse Jackson's "Hot Mike" situation when he said, "what is he doing, he can't talk about Black people that way". Well Barry never had another " Honest conversation" ever again. Ain't nobody got time for that....sounds good if you are a politician but will never happen.
I didn't mean to take this off topic. That point just bugged me. I had a similar conversation with a great friend who is a Philly cop last Saturday. I just don't agree with that philosophy, I certainly get it, but I think police need to be held to a higher standard than most people. I said it before, but they chose that profession knowing the risks and responsibilities. I make mistakes in work and it can be cleaned up, a cop makes a mistake and a life may be lost.
I also feel like this country is so damn scared to have tough conversations. Why is there a massive group of people who feel like they are being killed, targeted and abused by police? Does some officers' bias have an impact on how they do their job (as Hillary said/asked)? If so, how do we fix that? It is so fucking condescending to police for people like Trump and the FOP to say police never fuck up or make mistakes. These things happen and the consequences are massive. Are the vast majority of police great people doing a public service for the right reasons? Of fucking course. Are there issues? It sure as hell seems that way. Let's have that conversation rather than hiding. No one willing to have the conversation is accusing the police of going out and hunting black folks.
I love that "lets have a honest conversation about race" horse shit. Remember when Obummer touched on it in his first year? Remember Jesse Jackson's "Hot Mike" situation when he said, "what is he doing, he can't talk about Black people that way". Well Barry never had another " Honest conversation" ever again. Ain't nobody got time for that....sounds good if you are a politician but will never happen.
Is your preference the dishonest conversation where we say there's a few bad apples and then call it good?
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I really don't think so. My feeling is whatever your color, the cop will make his decision on how he is going to treat you in the first 5 seconds of the conversation. If you great him with a friendly hello when he approaches it is going to end much better than if you great him with some attitude. Its not realistic to generally think just because your black cops are going to treat you with ugliness. In any other profession, how often do you see anyone treating blacks less today? You don't see the grocery store clerk, the receptionist at the office or anyone else. Why do you automatically assume cops are going to be racist? They respond to how they are treated. If they approach and you are refusing to cooperate it probably wont be as friendly whatever your color is.
I didn't mean to take this off topic. That point just bugged me. I had a similar conversation with a great friend who is a Philly cop last Saturday. I just don't agree with that philosophy, I certainly get it, but I think police need to be held to a higher standard than most people. I said it before, but they chose that profession knowing the risks and responsibilities. I make mistakes in work and it can be cleaned up, a cop makes a mistake and a life may be lost.
I also feel like this country is so damn scared to have tough conversations. Why is there a massive group of people who feel like they are being killed, targeted and abused by police? Does some officers' bias have an impact on how they do their job (as Hillary said/asked)? If so, how do we fix that? It is so fucking condescending to police for people like Trump and the FOP to say police never fuck up or make mistakes. These things happen and the consequences are massive. Are the vast majority of police great people doing a public service for the right reasons? Of fucking course. Are there issues? It sure as hell seems that way. Let's have that conversation rather than hiding. No one willing to have the conversation is accusing the police of going out and hunting black folks.
I love that "lets have a honest conversation about race" horse shit. Remember when Obummer touched on it in his first year? Remember Jesse Jackson's "Hot Mike" situation when he said, "what is he doing, he can't talk about Black people that way". Well Barry never had another " Honest conversation" ever again. Ain't nobody got time for that....sounds good if you are a politician but will never happen.
What conversation do you want to have? Blacks are bad and scary? It seems like you are opposed to any program that would help poor people get out of poverty and ultimately (hopefully) reduce crime. It should be possible to have more than one tough conversation at a time...
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I really don't think so. My feeling is whatever your color, the cop will make his decision on how he is going to treat you in the first 5 seconds of the conversation. If you great him with a friendly hello when he approaches it is going to end much better than if you great him with some attitude. Its not realistic to generally think just because your black cops are going to treat you with ugliness. In any other profession, how often do you see anyone treating blacks less today? You don't see the grocery store clerk, the receptionist at the office or anyone else. Why do you automatically assume cops are going to be racist? They respond to how they are treated. If they approach and you are refusing to cooperate it probably wont be as friendly whatever your color is.
This post comes across as incredibly naive. It's nice that you "feel" that way, but the reality of life in America is just not always so swell.
Yeah. It's crazy how people don't have the same experiences I do, so I know not to generalize this to everyone else. Sometimes even race has a lot to do with these experiences.
except you are the biggest offender of generalizing all white people as gaining from white privilege
Yeah. It's crazy how people don't have the same experiences I do, so I know not to generalize this to everyone else. Sometimes even race has a lot to do with these experiences.
except you are the biggest offender of generalizing all white people as gaining from white privilege
Not every white person experiences white privilege in the same way I have. To say they do would be overgeneralizing. I think white privilege is a fact in our society, and each white person experiences it differently. The issue, much like racism, is often subtle or can be explained away by grasping at other factors. Often interpersonal and societal dynamics are difficult to prove in a way someone would in the field of hard science.
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I really don't think so. My feeling is whatever your color, the cop will make his decision on how he is going to treat you in the first 5 seconds of the conversation. If you great him with a friendly hello when he approaches it is going to end much better than if you great him with some attitude. Its not realistic to generally think just because your black cops are going to treat you with ugliness. In any other profession, how often do you see anyone treating blacks less today? You don't see the grocery store clerk, the receptionist at the office or anyone else. Why do you automatically assume cops are going to be racist? They respond to how they are treated. If they approach and you are refusing to cooperate it probably wont be as friendly whatever your color is.
This post comes across as incredibly naive. It's nice that you "feel" that way, but the reality of life in America is just not always so swell.
To me it seems more naïve to fall into the narrative that 600,000 cops are racist based off 2 or 3 bad examples (or even 2 or 3 hundred) that are over-exposed on TV, and ignore the millions of other encounters that you don't hear about. The news doesn't report the half a million cops doing a great job. They focus on the very extremely small number that isn't doing their job great and you have based your views of cops on that very small sample. I didn't base my statements just on feelings. I feel that way because of my observations in every day life and interactions with police and those who've had their own interactions of police. How often do you drive to work and see cops interacting with someone? For me its nearly every day, at least 3-4 times a week. I have never once seen any cop abusing anyone. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But 1,000 cops can do their job great and the media and some on here are going to focus on the one who doesn't and lump them all unto the same basket. I have lived and worked in places where whites are the minority. I've been in rough neighborhoods where it was normal to see cops out following break-in or some other crime. I have seen police interact with all kids of people as a result. I've seen them interact when people are angry or even happy to see them, but never seen a cop abuse or mistreat them in return. Even if a cop is bias, why would he even want to make his job harder? His job will go so much better when things happen without incident, they do what they can to keep that from happening. They don't want to make the black person angry or feel mistreated and not cooperate, that just makes it difficult for them. They don't want complaints filed against them. They do what they can to avoid that. Where do you base your opinion that most cops are going to treat a black person ugly when questioning them just because they are black? Have you witnessed that multiple times yourself? Where do you get your idea that a cop is automatically going to talk down to a black man just because he's black? No one else in society does that anymore (I'm generalizing of course), where do you get your idea that these cops are somehow stuck back in the pre-civil rights era but the rest of society has managed to move on? Is it because you can Google search and find a few bad examples out of the literally millions of good ones? I'm asking because if you have personal examples where you've seen this happen, then please share. If you haven't, how is it that you think you see cops on such a regular basis, but failed to ever witness something of that nature and still come to the same conclusion that you did? To think that an interaction will go different solely based on the color of their skin and not how they interact with the police, and therefore by definition the majority of them are racist, you must have some other knowledge or experiences?
No one has said give the cops the right to perform executions. No where. Maybe there are previous discussions I am unaware of that I don't agree with, but this comment seems reasonable.
I do know some complaints are a result of questioning. But come on, if the cops get a call about a burglary, and they see someone on the street that matches the description they should question him. Question him doesn't mean arrest him and beat him up, but ask him where's he's coming from, where he's going to, what his name is and so on. Completely reasonable and within the law to question him. Actually happened to me about a month ago. Was working in my front yard, police got a call for something down the street and they came and questioned me. I showed them my ID that proved I lived there, they asked me where I worked and a couple other questions and went on their way. Really wasn't a big deal at all. How differently would that have turned out if I refused to cooperate? I would only be making it more difficult for everyone. Examples of "well this person complied and was shot, so now they fear the same." Do you realize how extremely rare that is? Essentially every case that happens makes the news, out of millions and millions of stops and arrests it happens just a few times a year. More police get killed that innocent people following police orders. So yes it does happen, about one out of every million stops it does happen. But all cops are now labeled as racist pigs as a result.
Now take your situation where the cops are asking you questions and you're black. How that plays out, what the interation looks like, has a greater chance of general ugliness from the cops. Even if you conducted yourself in the same manner.
I really don't think so. My feeling is whatever your color, the cop will make his decision on how he is going to treat you in the first 5 seconds of the conversation. If you great him with a friendly hello when he approaches it is going to end much better than if you great him with some attitude. Its not realistic to generally think just because your black cops are going to treat you with ugliness. In any other profession, how often do you see anyone treating blacks less today? You don't see the grocery store clerk, the receptionist at the office or anyone else. Why do you automatically assume cops are going to be racist? They respond to how they are treated. If they approach and you are refusing to cooperate it probably wont be as friendly whatever your color is.
This post comes across as incredibly naive. It's nice that you "feel" that way, but the reality of life in America is just not always so swell.
To me it seems more naïve to fall into the narrative that 600,000 cops are racist based off 2 or 3 bad examples (or even 2 or 3 hundred) that are over-exposed on TV, and ignore the millions of other encounters that you don't hear about. The news doesn't report the half a million cops doing a great job. They focus on the very extremely small number that isn't doing their job great and you have based your views of cops on that very small sample. I didn't base my statements just on feelings. I feel that way because of my observations in every day life and interactions with police and those who've had their own interactions of police. How often do you drive to work and see cops interacting with someone? For me its nearly every day, at least 3-4 times a week. I have never once seen any cop abusing anyone. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But 1,000 cops can do their job great and the media and some on here are going to focus on the one who doesn't and lump them all unto the same basket. I have lived and worked in places where whites are the minority. I've been in rough neighborhoods where it was normal to see cops out following break-in or some other crime. I have seen police interact with all kids of people as a result. I've seen them interact when people are angry or even happy to see them, but never seen a cop abuse or mistreat them in return. Even if a cop is bias, why would he even want to make his job harder? His job will go so much better when things happen without incident, they do what they can to keep that from happening. They don't want to make the black person angry or feel mistreated and not cooperate, that just makes it difficult for them. They don't want complaints filed against them. They do what they can to avoid that. Where do you base your opinion that most cops are going to treat a black person ugly when questioning them just because they are black? Have you witnessed that multiple times yourself? Where do you get your idea that a cop is automatically going to talk down to a black man just because he's black? No one else in society does that anymore (I'm generalizing of course), where do you get your idea that these cops are somehow stuck back in the pre-civil rights era but the rest of society has managed to move on? Is it because you can Google search and find a few bad examples out of the literally millions of good ones?
You can't always put exact numbers on human bias and prejudice. people seem to want to do this to maintain the 'few bad apples' theory, but the thing is, prejudice falls on a continuum where we all lie. We all carry bias and prejudice. You can't put a mark on the continuum and say these few people to the right are racist, and everyone on the left is cool.
Okay, not all. But a good portion. You said my interaction with police had a greater chance of being ugly if I were black. And then called me naïve for not believing that was the case. "Greater chance" doesn't include all cops, but does imply a significant portion of them.. And if you think that a statistically significant number of police would have treated me ugly if I were black, then you believe a large portion of police are racist. Would that be a fair assessment?
Okay, not all. But a good portion. You said my interaction with police had a greater chance of being ugly if I were black. And then called me naïve for not believing that was the case. "Greater chance" doesn't include all cops, but does imply a significant portion of them.. And if you think that a statistically significant number of police would have treated me ugly if I were black, then you believe a large portion of police are racist. Would that be a fair assessment?
Links are fine, but why not your thoughts and reactions to it?
Wasn't paying attention and hit post comment lol
I fear this is going to happen more and more. I'm all for cops using deadly force when justified, and was this case justifiable? Possibly so. But luckily no one died here. The other officers were able to subdue the perpetrator with stun guns, but they were injured as well, although not as bad as the woman officer. I've got a few friends who are cops and my neighbor is a drug enforcement officer. He's told me that if they can bring down a subject with tasers, they do their best to, but someone on drugs like PCP (like this subject was) most likely isn't going to be taken down by a taser and you pretty much have to shoot them. But most officers don't know that subject is on PCP. There are warning signs, like extreme aggression and hallucinations, but the subject isn't wearing a sign that says "I'm f'd up on PCP!!" they have to make a split second decision. If the tasers don't work and that guy is still coming, they either shoot or end up in the hospital like this officer, or dead. Basically no good outcomes. Like I said, I fear we'll see more of this. Because of a handful of bad apples and facts getting thrown out the window on other shootings, the police are in a no win situation. They're being branded cowards and killers, when 99% of cops are doing their best to protect you and I and do their job to the best of their abilities
Comments
They do not do the same jobs.
With 600,000 police and millions of stops a year there is going to be some problems. When a story about a shooting or abuse comes out, it's reported as every day business and anyone who defends a cop is considered a cop sympathetic and usually ignored or put down. I have seen very few cases of truly unprovoked abuse or shootings. They are out there, you can find them. But for every one case of abuse I can probably find 10,000 instances where nothing went wrong. A traffic ticket, someone being questioned, police answering a call. There are thousands and thousands of stops EVERY day, and for some finding 1 or 2 cases every few days of abuse is enough proof? But you're going to see more and more cases like that cop in Chicago where they are afraid to react because you'll be labeled racist even for arresting a black man soon.
No buts about it.
I also feel like this country is so damn scared to have tough conversations. Why is there a massive group of people who feel like they are being killed, targeted and abused by police? Does some officers' bias have an impact on how they do their job (as Hillary said/asked)? If so, how do we fix that? It is so fucking condescending to police for people like Trump and the FOP to say police never fuck up or make mistakes. These things happen and the consequences are massive. Are the vast majority of police great people doing a public service for the right reasons? Of fucking course. Are there issues? It sure as hell seems that way. Let's have that conversation rather than hiding. No one willing to have the conversation is accusing the police of going out and hunting black folks.
https://m.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/55u6v1/black_man_with_gun_pulled_over_no_one_killed/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://countercurrentnews.com/2016/09/l-sheriffs-deputy-pulls-innocent-man-working-car/&ved=0ahUKEwimtYDQqcnPAhWIWT4KHZvWC14QFgg8MAo&usg=AFQjCNGdqbV7lHL68m4jo66RGVknQAbxUQ
Its not realistic to generally think just because your black cops are going to treat you with ugliness. In any other profession, how often do you see anyone treating blacks less today? You don't see the grocery store clerk, the receptionist at the office or anyone else. Why do you automatically assume cops are going to be racist? They respond to how they are treated. If they approach and you are refusing to cooperate it probably wont be as friendly whatever your color is.
This post comes across as incredibly naive.
It's nice that you "feel" that way, but the reality of life in America is just not always so swell.
I didn't base my statements just on feelings. I feel that way because of my observations in every day life and interactions with police and those who've had their own interactions of police. How often do you drive to work and see cops interacting with someone? For me its nearly every day, at least 3-4 times a week. I have never once seen any cop abusing anyone. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But 1,000 cops can do their job great and the media and some on here are going to focus on the one who doesn't and lump them all unto the same basket.
I have lived and worked in places where whites are the minority. I've been in rough neighborhoods where it was normal to see cops out following break-in or some other crime. I have seen police interact with all kids of people as a result. I've seen them interact when people are angry or even happy to see them, but never seen a cop abuse or mistreat them in return.
Even if a cop is bias, why would he even want to make his job harder? His job will go so much better when things happen without incident, they do what they can to keep that from happening. They don't want to make the black person angry or feel mistreated and not cooperate, that just makes it difficult for them. They don't want complaints filed against them. They do what they can to avoid that.
Where do you base your opinion that most cops are going to treat a black person ugly when questioning them just because they are black? Have you witnessed that multiple times yourself? Where do you get your idea that a cop is automatically going to talk down to a black man just because he's black? No one else in society does that anymore (I'm generalizing of course), where do you get your idea that these cops are somehow stuck back in the pre-civil rights era but the rest of society has managed to move on? Is it because you can Google search and find a few bad examples out of the literally millions of good ones?
I'm asking because if you have personal examples where you've seen this happen, then please share. If you haven't, how is it that you think you see cops on such a regular basis, but failed to ever witness something of that nature and still come to the same conclusion that you did? To think that an interaction will go different solely based on the color of their skin and not how they interact with the police, and therefore by definition the majority of them are racist, you must have some other knowledge or experiences?
You said my interaction with police had a greater chance of being ugly if I were black. And then called me naïve for not believing that was the case. "Greater chance" doesn't include all cops, but does imply a significant portion of them.. And if you think that a statistically significant number of police would have treated me ugly if I were black, then you believe a large portion of police are racist. Would that be a fair assessment?
I fear this is going to happen more and more. I'm all for cops using deadly force when justified, and was this case justifiable? Possibly so. But luckily no one died here. The other officers were able to subdue the perpetrator with stun guns, but they were injured as well, although not as bad as the woman officer. I've got a few friends who are cops and my neighbor is a drug enforcement officer. He's told me that if they can bring down a subject with tasers, they do their best to, but someone on drugs like PCP (like this subject was) most likely isn't going to be taken down by a taser and you pretty much have to shoot them. But most officers don't know that subject is on PCP. There are warning signs, like extreme aggression and hallucinations, but the subject isn't wearing a sign that says "I'm f'd up on PCP!!" they have to make a split second decision. If the tasers don't work and that guy is still coming, they either shoot or end up in the hospital like this officer, or dead. Basically no good outcomes.
Like I said, I fear we'll see more of this. Because of a handful of bad apples and facts getting thrown out the window on other shootings, the police are in a no win situation. They're being branded cowards and killers, when 99% of cops are doing their best to protect you and I and do their job to the best of their abilities