Police abuse

OnWis97

pjl44 said:

OnWis97 said:

pjl44 said:

Honestly, I hope Minneapolis goes for it. It's a fascinating idea and I'd love to watch it from afar.

I’ll be watching from a block away in St. Paul...my daily dog-walks take me into Minneapolis.  Admittedly I nervous about it.  The reaction gas been a little knee-jerk and/or poorly-communicated.  Then again, my dog-walks take me into an NBC an area where I have never seen a cop.  It’s people that constantly see them that want them gone.

I think you get to the heart of it here - their city, their decision. I have to think this wouldn't really impact you unless you were in Minneapolis, right? If you're in St. Paul and need to call the police for something, should be business as usual?

I still go to Minneapolis.  God-willing, I'll be able to go to a Twins game in 2021, for example.  I enjoy watching the suburban masses say "I'm never going to Minneapolis, again."  We don't know exactly what's going to happen.  I don't think we'll never have "no cops" but as I've mentioned, the City Council is communicating in a way that makes it sound that way.

oftenreading

g under p said:

So what has protesting accomplished? 

Within 10 days of sustained protests:

Minneapolis bans use of choke holds. 👉🏾Charges are upgraded against Officer Chauvin, and his accomplices are arrested and charged.
 👉🏾Dallas adopts a "duty to intervene" rule that requires officers to stop other cops who are engaging in inappropriate use of force. 👉🏾New Jersey’s attorney general said the state will update its use-of-force guidelines for the first time in two decades.
 👉🏾In Maryland, a bipartisan work group of state lawmakers announced a police reform work group.
 👉🏾Los Angeles City Council introduces motion to reduce LAPD’s $1.8 billion operating budget.
 👉🏾MBTA in Boston agrees to stop using public buses to transport police officers to protests.
 👉🏾Police brutality captured on cameras leads to near-immediate suspensions and firings of officers in several cities (i.e., Buffalo, Ft. Lauderdale).
 👉🏾Monuments celebrating confederates are removed in cities in Virginia, Alabama, and other states.
 👉🏾Street in front of the White House is renamed "Black Lives Matter Plaza.” Military forces begin to withdraw from D.C. Then, there's all the other stuff that's hard to measure:
 💓The really difficult public and private conversations that are happening about race and privilege.
 💓The realizations some white people are coming to about racism and the role of policing in this country.
 💓The self-reflection.
 💓The internal battles exploding within organizations over issues that have been simmering or ignored for a long time. Some organizations will end as a result, others will be forever changed or replaced with something stronger and fairer. Globally:
 🌎 Protests against racial inequality sparked by the police killing of George Floyd are taking place all over the world.
 🌎 Rallies and memorials have been held in cities across Europe, as well as in Mexico, Canada, Brazil, Australia, and New Zealand. 🌎 As the US contends with its second week of protests, issues of racism, police brutality, and oppression have been brought to light across the globe.
 🌎 People all over the world understand that their own fights for human rights, for equality and fairness, will become so much more difficult to win if we are going to lose America as the place where 'I have a dream' is a real and universal political program," Wolfgang Ischinger, a former German ambassador to the US, told the New Yorker. 🌎 In France, protesters marched holding signs that said "I can't breathe" to signify both the words of Floyd, and the last words of Adama Traoré, a 24-year-old black man who was subdued by police officers and gasped the sentence before he died outside Paris in 2016.

 🌎 Cities across Europe have come together after the death of George Floyd:
 ✊🏽 In Amsterdam, an estimated 10,000 people filled the Dam square on Monday, holding signs and shouting popular chants like "Black lives matter," and "No justice, no peace."
 ✊🏽 In Germany, people gathered in multiple locations throughout Berlin to demand justice for Floyd and fight against police brutality.
 ✊🏾 A mural dedicated to Floyd was also spray-painted on a stretch of wall in Berlin that once divided the German capital during the Cold War.
 ✊🏿 In Ireland, protesters held a peaceful demonstration outside of Belfast City Hall, and others gathered outside of the US embassy in Dublin.
 ✊🏿In Italy, protesters gathered and marched with signs that said "Stop killing black people," "Say his name," and "We will not be silent."
 ✊🏾 In Spain, people gathered to march and hold up signs throughout Barcelona and Madrid.
 ✊🏾 In Athens, Greece, protesters took to the streets to collectively hold up a sign that read "I can't breathe."
 ✊🏾 In Brussels, protesters were seen sitting in a peaceful demonstration in front of an opera house in the center of the city.
 ✊🏾In Denmark, protesters were heard chanting "No justice, no peace!" throughout the streets of Copenhagen, while others gathered outside the US embassy.
 ✊🏾 In Canada, protesters were also grieving for Regis Korchinski-Paquet, a 29-year-old black woman who died on Wednesday after falling from her balcony during a police investigation at her building.
 ✊🏾 And in New Zealand, roughly 2,000 people marched to the US embassy in Auckland, chanting and carrying signs demanding justice.
 💐 Memorials have been built for Floyd around the world, too. In Mexico City, portraits of him were hung outside the US embassy with roses, candles, and signs.
 💐 In Poland, candles and flowers were laid out next to photos of Floyd outside the US consulate.
 💐 And in Syria, two artists created a mural depicting Floyd in the northwestern town of Binnish, "on a wall destroyed by military planes." Before the assassination of George Floyd some of you were able to say whatever the hell you wanted and the world didn't say anything to you... THERE HAS BEEN A SHIFT, AN AWAKENING...MANY OF YOU ARE BEING EXPOSED FOR WHO YOU REALLY ARE. #readthatagain Don't wake up tomorrow on the wrong side of this issue. Its not to late to SAY, "maybe I need to look at this from a different perspective. Maybe I don't know what its like to be Black in America... Maybe, just maybe, I have been taught wrong." There is still so much work to be done. It's been a really dark, raw week. This could still end badly. But all we can do is keep doing the work. Keep protesting.
 WE ARE NOT TRYING TO START A RACE WAR; WE ARE PROTESTING TO END IT, PEACEFULLY. How beautiful is that?
 ALL LIVES CANNOT MATTER UNTIL YOU INCLUDE BLACK LIVES. YOU CANNOT SAY 'ALL LIVES MATTER' WHEN YOU DO NOTHING TO STOP SYSTEMIC RACISM & POLICE BRUTALITY. YOU CANNOT SAY 'ALL LIVES MATTER' WHEN BLACK PEOPLE ARE DYING AND ALL YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IS THE LOOTING. YOU CANNOT SAY 'ALL LIVES MATTER' WHEN YOU ALLOW CHILDREN TO BE CAGED, VETERANS TO GO HOMELESS, AND POOR FAMILIES TO GO HUNGRY & LOSE THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE. DO ALL LIVES MATTER? YES. BUT RIGHT NOW, ONLY BLACK LIVES ARE BEING TARGETED, JAILED, AND KILLED EN MASSE- SO THAT'S WHO WE'RE FOCUSING ON. 🖤🖤🖤BLACK LIVES MATTER🖤🖤🖤

 IF YOU CAN'T SEE THIS, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. 

That's quite a bit in a short period of time, I hope it continues in positive ways. 

Peace

Thank you for posting this. This horrific death caused a spark that has burst into flame across the world. I’m holding out hope that the fire continues to burn and causes lasting change. All of the responses you listed are inspiring. None are petty. All are ways to shed light and demand necessary change. 

pjl44

OnWis97 said:

pjl44 said:

OnWis97 said:

pjl44 said:

Honestly, I hope Minneapolis goes for it. It's a fascinating idea and I'd love to watch it from afar.

I’ll be watching from a block away in St. Paul...my daily dog-walks take me into Minneapolis.  Admittedly I nervous about it.  The reaction gas been a little knee-jerk and/or poorly-communicated.  Then again, my dog-walks take me into an NBC an area where I have never seen a cop.  It’s people that constantly see them that want them gone.

I think you get to the heart of it here - their city, their decision. I have to think this wouldn't really impact you unless you were in Minneapolis, right? If you're in St. Paul and need to call the police for something, should be business as usual?

I still go to Minneapolis.  God-willing, I'll be able to go to a Twins game in 2021, for example.  I enjoy watching the suburban masses say "I'm never going to Minneapolis, again."  We don't know exactly what's going to happen.  I don't think we'll never have "no cops" but as I've mentioned, the City Council is communicating in a way that makes it sound that way.

Ahhhhhh...true, true. Yeah, I would never be able to avoid Boston proper if they went that way.

static111

bbiggs said:

Mike D88 said:

I said in many cases. If you want to extrapolate that to mean everywhere, we're done here, stop wasting my time.

I didn’t extrapolate anything. What I’m trying to get at is whether or not you’re willing to practice what you preach. Are you comfortable living somewhere with significantly reduced law enforcement, or in some cases, just a county sheriff?  I’m not. I can answer that question very easily. 

Those communities already exist.  Look at the wealthy and upper class mostly white neighborhoods and suburbs.  You rarely see cops in the areA and I would venture to say you never see a beat cop poking his head around looking for wrongdoing.  I think it’s wild that people don’t see that we already have communities without police officers.  I’m sure if you jammed as many cops in those now police free zones and had them follow the same policies they follow in other communities there would be a rise in crime in those areas.  And with it a higher rate of police distrust.  Likely a higher rate of violence against police since that’s where all the camo wearing non hunting gun owners live as well.

oftenreading

cincybearcat said:

Lots of great things.  Look forward to more changes as well.  I do think the open dialogue has been the single best part so far.  Cause the other things are quick, knee-jerk type actions.  But talking to each other can improve a generation.  Next step are law changes in more than just sporadic cities.

I will say, that the single thing on your list that actually bugs me was the DC mayor using paint and basically encouraging vandalism by painting that street simply to troll the president.  It was a petty political move.  But at least more peaceful than the president's own petty political move.

I certainly haven't agreed with everything posted here or that I've heard on the news, radio etc.  But it's all been great to read and listen to.  It also does help to try and stop the 'knee jerk' reactions to things like "Defund the police".  Well, doesn't stop it, but the dialogue continue allows for people to actually understand that it's a really dumb term for what they are trying to say.  A term more to rally those that already support your cause vs bring more people on board.  

Why do you view a city official painting a slogan of support for the community as encouragement of vandalism? Do you view cities painting rainbow crosswalks in support of LGBTQ people as a similar incitement to graffiti and simply to troll conservatives? 

brianlux

A lot of talk about disbanding police forces all together.  I like Camden, NJ's more pragmatic approach which has proven to be very successful:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/08/872416644/former-chief-of-reformed-camden-n-j-force-police-need-consent-of-the-people

cincybearcat

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

Lots of great things.  Look forward to more changes as well.  I do think the open dialogue has been the single best part so far.  Cause the other things are quick, knee-jerk type actions.  But talking to each other can improve a generation.  Next step are law changes in more than just sporadic cities.

I will say, that the single thing on your list that actually bugs me was the DC mayor using paint and basically encouraging vandalism by painting that street simply to troll the president.  It was a petty political move.  But at least more peaceful than the president's own petty political move.

I certainly haven't agreed with everything posted here or that I've heard on the news, radio etc.  But it's all been great to read and listen to.  It also does help to try and stop the 'knee jerk' reactions to things like "Defund the police".  Well, doesn't stop it, but the dialogue continue allows for people to actually understand that it's a really dumb term for what they are trying to say.  A term more to rally those that already support your cause vs bring more people on board.  

Why do you view a city official painting a slogan of support for the community as encouragement of vandalism? Do you view cities painting rainbow crosswalks in support of LGBTQ people as a similar incitement to graffiti and simply to troll conservatives? 

If he did it right in on the street to the white house, after the president had been tweeting crap...yes.  If you don;t think that was in response directly to Trump I don;t know what to tell you.

And I'm not for spray painting the street while people are out spray painting in acts of vandalism during the protests.  Heck in iowa a strength and conditioning coach was accused of racist comments and people then decided to spray paint statues etc.  I get that it's going to happen, I hate a city leader anywhere joining in. just my opinion.  And I really hate the ACAB spray painting.  I find that message to be awful.  But again, my opinion.  Leaders should be leading.

oftenreading

cincybearcat said:

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

Lots of great things.  Look forward to more changes as well.  I do think the open dialogue has been the single best part so far.  Cause the other things are quick, knee-jerk type actions.  But talking to each other can improve a generation.  Next step are law changes in more than just sporadic cities.

I will say, that the single thing on your list that actually bugs me was the DC mayor using paint and basically encouraging vandalism by painting that street simply to troll the president.  It was a petty political move.  But at least more peaceful than the president's own petty political move.

I certainly haven't agreed with everything posted here or that I've heard on the news, radio etc.  But it's all been great to read and listen to.  It also does help to try and stop the 'knee jerk' reactions to things like "Defund the police".  Well, doesn't stop it, but the dialogue continue allows for people to actually understand that it's a really dumb term for what they are trying to say.  A term more to rally those that already support your cause vs bring more people on board.  

Why do you view a city official painting a slogan of support for the community as encouragement of vandalism? Do you view cities painting rainbow crosswalks in support of LGBTQ people as a similar incitement to graffiti and simply to troll conservatives? 

If he did it right in on the street to the white house, after the president had been tweeting crap...yes.  If you don;t think that was in response directly to Trump I don;t know what to tell you.

And I'm not for spray painting the street while people are out spray painting in acts of vandalism during the protests.  Heck in iowa a strength and conditioning coach was accused of racist comments and people then decided to spray paint statues etc.  I get that it's going to happen, I hate a city leader anywhere joining in. just my opinion.  And I really hate the ACAB spray painting.  I find that message to be awful.  But again, my opinion.  Leaders should be leading.

I did not say it was not in direct response to Trump, I said that I don’t see it as being an encouragement  to vandalism. I think that argument is absurd with no basis in fact. I fully support directing the BLM message at Trump. If anyone needs to hear it, it’s him. He won’t, but that’s no excuse to avoid putting it right out there for him. 

cincybearcat

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

Lots of great things.  Look forward to more changes as well.  I do think the open dialogue has been the single best part so far.  Cause the other things are quick, knee-jerk type actions.  But talking to each other can improve a generation.  Next step are law changes in more than just sporadic cities.

I will say, that the single thing on your list that actually bugs me was the DC mayor using paint and basically encouraging vandalism by painting that street simply to troll the president.  It was a petty political move.  But at least more peaceful than the president's own petty political move.

I certainly haven't agreed with everything posted here or that I've heard on the news, radio etc.  But it's all been great to read and listen to.  It also does help to try and stop the 'knee jerk' reactions to things like "Defund the police".  Well, doesn't stop it, but the dialogue continue allows for people to actually understand that it's a really dumb term for what they are trying to say.  A term more to rally those that already support your cause vs bring more people on board.  

Why do you view a city official painting a slogan of support for the community as encouragement of vandalism? Do you view cities painting rainbow crosswalks in support of LGBTQ people as a similar incitement to graffiti and simply to troll conservatives? 

If he did it right in on the street to the white house, after the president had been tweeting crap...yes.  If you don;t think that was in response directly to Trump I don;t know what to tell you.

And I'm not for spray painting the street while people are out spray painting in acts of vandalism during the protests.  Heck in iowa a strength and conditioning coach was accused of racist comments and people then decided to spray paint statues etc.  I get that it's going to happen, I hate a city leader anywhere joining in. just my opinion.  And I really hate the ACAB spray painting.  I find that message to be awful.  But again, my opinion.  Leaders should be leading.

I did not say it was not in direct response to Trump, I said that I don’t see it as being an encouragement  to vandalism. I think that argument is absurd with no basis in fact. I fully support directing the BLM message at Trump. If anyone needs to hear it, it’s him. He won’t, but that’s no excuse to avoid putting it right out there for him. 

I think you are being a little dramatic to say it's "absurd with no basis in fact".  It's a politician spray painting a street to get a message across....while people are spray painting buildings, etc to get their message across.  If you don;t think people should be doing it and it's vandalism, then you shouldn't be ok with a "leader" doing it as well.  

I'm sure that street painting had a major effect on Trump.  He's probably decided to all of a sudden reconsider his actions.  

I don;t think your opinion that there is nothing wrong with it to be "absurd" though.  Just your opinion that other opinions are absurd...now that is absurd.

cutz

https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1976578

Players Coalition gets 1,400 signatures for bill to end police immunity

Mike Alessandrini

6h ago

NurPhoto / Getty

In an effort to make law enforcement more accountable in the United States, the Players Coalition gathered over 1,400 signatures from current and retired athletes supporting a bill to end qualified immunity, according to ESPN's Michael Rothstein.

Qualified immunity is a legal doctrine that makes it difficult to take legal action against police officers and government officials for their conduct.

A number of high-profile athletes from the NFL, MLB, and NBA signed the letter, including Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Dak Prescott, Alex Bregman, CC Sabathia, Steve Kerr, and Gregg Popovich.

"We are tired of conversations around police accountability that go nowhere, and we have engaged in too many 'listening sessions,' where we discuss whether there is a problem of police violence in this country," the coalition wrote in a letter to Congress.

"There is a problem. The world witnessed it when officer (Derek) Chauvin murdered George Floyd, and the world is watching it now, as officers deploy enormous force on peaceful protestors like those who were standing outside of the White House last week," the letter continued. "The time for debate about the unchecked authority of the police is over; it is now time for change."

The organization also invited every NFL team to a virtual meeting on Wednesday that will focus on how the league can promote social justice while assisting black communities, a source told ESPN's Dianna Russini.

Anquan Boldin and Malcolm Jenkins founded the Players Coalition in 2017. The group works to change social inequality and bring awareness to the issue.

Every major North American sports league has addressed racial injustice and plans to take major steps to tackle the problem.

what dreams

G under P, 
Great summary! Very much needed to focus on the positive, that all of us hope will continue.

pjl44

cutz said:

https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1976578

Players Coalition gets 1,400 signatures for bill to end police immunity

Mike Alessandrini

6h ago

NurPhoto / Getty

In an effort to make law enforcement more accountable in the United States, the Players Coalition gathered over 1,400 signatures from current and retired athletes supporting a bill to end qualified immunity, according to ESPN's Michael Rothstein.

Qualified immunity is a legal doctrine that makes it difficult to take legal action against police officers and government officials for their conduct.

A number of high-profile athletes from the NFL, MLB, and NBA signed the letter, including Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Dak Prescott, Alex Bregman, CC Sabathia, Steve Kerr, and Gregg Popovich.

"We are tired of conversations around police accountability that go nowhere, and we have engaged in too many 'listening sessions,' where we discuss whether there is a problem of police violence in this country," the coalition wrote in a letter to Congress.

"There is a problem. The world witnessed it when officer (Derek) Chauvin murdered George Floyd, and the world is watching it now, as officers deploy enormous force on peaceful protestors like those who were standing outside of the White House last week," the letter continued. "The time for debate about the unchecked authority of the police is over; it is now time for change."

The organization also invited every NFL team to a virtual meeting on Wednesday that will focus on how the league can promote social justice while assisting black communities, a source told ESPN's Dianna Russini.

Anquan Boldin and Malcolm Jenkins founded the Players Coalition in 2017. The group works to change social inequality and bring awareness to the issue.

Every major North American sports league has addressed racial injustice and plans to take major steps to tackle the problem.

This is tremendous and the bill referenced is Amash and Pressley's.

brianlux

Thoughts about Camden?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department?sref=ndQeXqOs&fbclid=IwAR3n7v519rY21KPXt7dkGcb27Yv3wRwSGMSQHxu3JkrzWMaYU4T8dxg03uU

RYME

While every police abuse is never excuseable, and the outrage after every horrific incident is totally legit.  The hatred towards the police force and generalizations are not statistically warranted.
Here are the numbers.
https://newstalk1130.iheart.com/featured/common-sense-central/content/2020-06-08-the-facts-just-dont-support-the-defund-the-police-narrative/

pjl44

RYME said:

While every police abuse is never excuseable, and the outrage after every horrific incident is totally legit.  The hatred towards the police force and generalizations are not statistically warranted.
Here are the numbers.
https://newstalk1130.iheart.com/featured/common-sense-central/content/2020-06-08-the-facts-just-dont-support-the-defund-the-police-narrative/

It's not about the frequency of these incidents, deadly or not. It's about the lack of consequences.

static111

pjl44 said:

RYME said:

While every police abuse is never excuseable, and the outrage after every horrific incident is totally legit.  The hatred towards the police force and generalizations are not statistically warranted.
Here are the numbers.
https://newstalk1130.iheart.com/featured/common-sense-central/content/2020-06-08-the-facts-just-dont-support-the-defund-the-police-narrative/

It's not about the frequency of these incidents, deadly or not. It's about the lack of consequences.

And remember that’s also only the times they were caught and incidents were reported.

RYME

Black Lives do of course Matter!  I love black people.
But the Facts Do Matter also when deciding what to do with the police in the USA.  No horrific killing of any black person or onybody is ever acceptable should be Zero Tolerance.   Punish those bad apple motherfukers to the fullest extent of the law and getting rid of them!! I wouldn't even mind pulling the lever Thomas Edison Style for them.
But the statistics do not match the outrage towards the police force as a whole.

static111

RYME said:

Black Lives do of course Matter!  I love black people.
But the Facts Do Matter also when deciding what to do with the police in the USA.  No horrific killing of any black person or onybody is ever acceptable should be Zero Tolerance.   Punish those bad apple motherfukers to the fullest extent of the law and getting rid of them!! I wouldn't even mind pulling the lever Thomas Edison Style for them.
But the statistics do not match the outrage towards the police force as a whole.

Those statistics are also about cop related deaths not officer harassment unfair arrests and incarceration rates etc.

brianlux

RYME said:

Black Lives do of course Matter!  I love black people.
But the Facts Do Matter also when deciding what to do with the police in the USA.  No horrific killing of any black person or onybody is ever acceptable should be Zero Tolerance.   Punish those bad apple motherfukers to the fullest extent of the law and getting rid of them!! I wouldn't even mind pulling the lever Thomas Edison Style for them.
But the statistics do not match the outrage towards the police force as a whole.

Partly, that depends of where you live, RYME.  Camden, for example (and not one here seems to want to touch this), reorganized their police force by requiring better training, telling officers to go out into the community and get to know the people they serve, have and attitude of service, not military style enforcement, and so forth, and it seems to be working quite well.  Our local police and sheriffs department are generally quite well received and seem very public minded.  They could probably do a bit better, but generally they are a decent bunch (and I know from having talked to a number of them).

But in many places, too many places, this is not the case and huge changes need to be made.

jerparker20

brianlux said:

Thoughts about Camden?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department?sref=ndQeXqOs&fbclid=IwAR3n7v519rY21KPXt7dkGcb27Yv3wRwSGMSQHxu3JkrzWMaYU4T8dxg03uU

I’m still not sure the Camden model is the way to go. Yes, crime has been significantly curb, but is it due to their strategies or the almost tripling of the number of officers and dramatic increase in surveillance? Not sure if that is the answer.

Brian, you’re someone who reads. I highly, highly recommend the book The End of Policing by Alex Vitale. My wife ordered and thought was going to be some hippy-dippy liberal hug fest; wrong. The author lays out very practical arguments for ways to make communities safer, address social-economic problems, and make police less taxed by being expected to be the answer for everything. Both conventional liberal and conservative standbys for police reform get taken to task. A great and insightful read.