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Police abuse

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  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,693
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 
  • gvn2fly1421gvn2fly1421 Posts: 737
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 
    Absolutely, 100% with you.  But why use the language of controlling a narrative?  Saying officer-worn body cameras can obscure the truth?

    Why not just release the videos and let the facts speak for themselves?  
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,911
    I guess we need citizen-worn body cameras. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,504
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 

    Exactly. 

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,592
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 
    Absolutely, 100% with you.  But why use the language of controlling a narrative?  Saying officer-worn body cameras can obscure the truth?

    Why not just release the videos and let the facts speak for themselves?  
    Because DAs, cops and detectives never tamper with or withhold evidence or intimidate witnesses to interfere with an investigation of one of their own. Never happens. That’s why.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,820
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJNB said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Can’t wait to hear the justification for this guy and how he did everything right. They should have just complied.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/23/us/andrew-hall-california-shootings-multiple-charges/index.html
    I won't say the cop did everything right. But I would advise against pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me."
    Slow day in Danville. Jaywalking is the “excuse” for confronting the dead suspect. “Come here.” I wonder if he added, “boy,” to the end of his command.
    I have no idea, but there's no mention that he did. 
    Will you not agree that pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me" is a bad idea?
    Of course it is. I am not even sure why you think you need to ask that question or make that point. Does it mean the cop should fulfill your wish? I would hope not. We all know what suicide by cop is and we all should know how serious mental health issues can be. 


    It was more a response to the comments "Can't wait to hear the justification and he should just comply." That comes across as putting no blame on the victim. Even when the cop is wrong, often the victim shares some responsibility. The cop shouldn't have shot, but you don't pull a knife on a cop either and say "kill me." They both share responsibility here.
    Jaywalking. Dead. Cops need to learn to prioritize the level of infraction in "To Serve & To Protect," and respond accordingly. Often the victim shares all of the responsibility based on a lot the pro-cop comments I've read.
    He wasn't killed for j-walking. He was killed because he pulled a knife on the cop, he just happened to have j-walked just prior to doing so. I wouldn't J-walk in front of a cop, I know they give out tickets for that. 
    The cop may have been able to deescalate the situation. But he definitely should not have pulled the knife either. If you're going to blame a cop for not deescalating a situation when faced with a knife, lets also blame the guy for pulling a knife on the cop and not say he was killed for j-walking. 
    He was killed for jaywalking. The cop could have yelled at him to get out of the street. The cop could have driven away. The cop escalated a situation that didn't need to be escalated, unless jaywalking is of such outrage and a threat to public safety that it demands a cop to respond? WTF? Did the guy pull a knife prior to the cop rolling up? Was he waving it around threatening people? Maybe he felt threatened by the cop and wanted to "stand his ground." Do black people not have a justifiable fear of the police, particularly when they just roll up and say "come here?" Just comply and he might have ended up dead as well, like the guy 3 years prior. Or Freddie Grey, etc. etc. etc.

    I blame the cop for trying to stop someone for jay walking. Its the 21st century for crying out loud. Or is this just more of "broken windows" policing because if you don't stop jay walking, the perps will be raping your women and stealing your shit?
    So police can't give tickets unless it warrants a deadly threat? The dude j-walked. The cop approached him, cops can give tickets for j-walking. They can give tickets for many other minor things like littering, loitering, bad parking job, etc. They are allowed to approach an individual with those infractions and give a ticket. That individual does not have a right to pull a knife on the cop for doing so.
    Now the cop probably could have deescalated it, I have agreed to that. I dont understand why anyone would still say this cop goes around killing people for j-walking. Why is it a big issue to enforce pedestrian laws, you act like it s acivil rights violation to enforce j-walking laws. That is clearly not what happened. He happened to j-walk, then pulled a knife on a cop. He was killed for threatening a cop with a knife. 
    And you continue to act as if the law is equally applied and that the consequences are the same for all offenders. Or maybe you believe white people don't jaywalk? Or that white people aren't treated differently by the police?

    To the bold, apparently only if you're white.
    I never said that. I'm just responding to the statement he was killed for j-walking. He wasn't. He j-walked, cop approached, he pulled a knife, was shot. The cop did not shoot him for j-walking. Had he not pulled the knife but j-walked 1000 times he'd still be alive. 
    I did not comment on the law being equally applied or not. That is you putting words in my mouth for pointing out facts. Facts being he pulled a knife and that was why he was shot. 
    After he pulled the knife, the cop had no other alternative? None? The cop put himself in the position of "fearing for his life." And a jaywalker was killed for it. The cop fucked up. Could have handled the situation a thousand different ways. There was no "threat." A fucking jaywalker. Dead. And if i were a black guy in CA, I'd certainly feel hunted and would want to protect myself from cops based on "facts."
    I already said he probably could have handled it better. It was a pocket knife, there probably was a better option. I'm not sure if you intentionally ignore those comments, you seem to repeat the same questions a lot.
    But according to your article, what was inappropriate about this? It was said (although I dont think by you) he was harassing the guy. Doesnt like like harassment to me.

    Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires.

    Police have the right to approach someone j-walking and cite them. All seems pretty normal and no reason to pull the knife. I don't understand why anyone would make excuses for someone pulling a knife for no reason. I haven't seen the video, but I would guess there probably were other options when faced with what was probably a small pocket knife. I never said the cop did everything right either. But lets also put some accountability on people pulling knives on cops for what appears to be a normal stop. 
    If you're black. Its jaywalking. Drive on. Why harass the guy? Because he was black and he could. 
    Where does it describe him as being harassed? Are cops not allowed to stop black people and give tickets? j-walking can get you a ticket. its not racist to give a black guy a ticket if he's j-walking.  But according to you police should not enforce any citations based on color? Giving a jaywalking ticket isnt harassing. Unless you can show me in the article where that happened. I quoted the majority of the exchange and it wasn't there. 
    it can seem like harassment, and very well might be, as jaywalking isn't really a normally enforced law. it seems only dick cops do it. 

    edit: at least not where I live. not once in my 46 years have I ever heard anyone say they've been ticketed for jaywalking. or even warned. 
    I agree seems like a lame citation. But I have friends who’ve been ticketed and I still never jaywalk if there’s a cop in sight. If I did get a ticket for it one day I’d probably think the cop was a duck. I wouldn’t pull a knife on him though. And even still, I don’t see ticketing for it alone as harassment. 
    In this case he wasnt even ticketed. He was just approaching him. Maybe he did harass him but there’s nothing in the article that even suggests he did. So I was just wondering why some described it as harassment when there was no mention of anything close to that.
    It's over policing, which many see as harassment. Are you incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective besides the police? 

    This isn't rocket science. 
    I agree its a ticky-tack ticket, I said as much. But I disagree with several things being said about this case. What I disagree with;
    He was not shot over j-walking. He pulled a knife, so people need ot stop saying he was shot over j-walking
    Ticky-0tack tickets do not equal harassment. 
    Do cops harass people? Ever? What would that look like, in your opinion?
    Sure they have. There's been examples posted here before. 
    But in the description of the video I see nothing that I would describe as harassment:

    "Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires."

    Which part exactly is harassment? Approaching someone for j-walking, that equals harassment? If that's your argument we'll just have to disagree and move on.
    I didn’t ask for examples of cops harassing people in this thread, I asked you to illustrate what you would consider cop harassment and what it would look like if trying to stop someone for jaywalking isn’t harassment in your view.
    I don’t know why some of us try here and in our outside lives with the “I’m not a racist but in this situation the cops were justified” racist crowd. It just becomes like the myth of Sisyphus pushing the rock and letting it roll back down again, just an endless punishment. I started posting here on amt during the beginning of quarantine and it boggles my mind how people can listen to this bands music and constantly side with state sanctioned violence against marginalized citizens. 
    so everyone who disagrees with you is a racist now. ok. 
    Yeah I was trying to understand what that statement meant.   

    I'm all for changes in policing.  It is very clear that it is needed.  I do wonder if we are all truly willing to deal with what it means in the short term potentially.  Let's take the shooting in Columbus for example.  Let's say police don;t grab for their guns...they end up engaging and disarming the girl with a knife, but instead of no harm coming to the person she was attacking when she was shot, now that other person gets stabbed.  Are we ok with that?  Those situations are extremely difficult to navigate for me.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 
    Absolutely, 100% with you.  But why use the language of controlling a narrative?  Saying officer-worn body cameras can obscure the truth?

    Why not just release the videos and let the facts speak for themselves?  
    Officers body cameras often “don’t work” and many times the footage released is a super cut to put out the PD side of things.  A running camera in the hands of a citizen with uncut footage is much more trustworthy.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    edited April 29
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJNB said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Can’t wait to hear the justification for this guy and how he did everything right. They should have just complied.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/23/us/andrew-hall-california-shootings-multiple-charges/index.html
    I won't say the cop did everything right. But I would advise against pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me."
    Slow day in Danville. Jaywalking is the “excuse” for confronting the dead suspect. “Come here.” I wonder if he added, “boy,” to the end of his command.
    I have no idea, but there's no mention that he did. 
    Will you not agree that pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me" is a bad idea?
    Of course it is. I am not even sure why you think you need to ask that question or make that point. Does it mean the cop should fulfill your wish? I would hope not. We all know what suicide by cop is and we all should know how serious mental health issues can be. 


    It was more a response to the comments "Can't wait to hear the justification and he should just comply." That comes across as putting no blame on the victim. Even when the cop is wrong, often the victim shares some responsibility. The cop shouldn't have shot, but you don't pull a knife on a cop either and say "kill me." They both share responsibility here.
    Jaywalking. Dead. Cops need to learn to prioritize the level of infraction in "To Serve & To Protect," and respond accordingly. Often the victim shares all of the responsibility based on a lot the pro-cop comments I've read.
    He wasn't killed for j-walking. He was killed because he pulled a knife on the cop, he just happened to have j-walked just prior to doing so. I wouldn't J-walk in front of a cop, I know they give out tickets for that. 
    The cop may have been able to deescalate the situation. But he definitely should not have pulled the knife either. If you're going to blame a cop for not deescalating a situation when faced with a knife, lets also blame the guy for pulling a knife on the cop and not say he was killed for j-walking. 
    He was killed for jaywalking. The cop could have yelled at him to get out of the street. The cop could have driven away. The cop escalated a situation that didn't need to be escalated, unless jaywalking is of such outrage and a threat to public safety that it demands a cop to respond? WTF? Did the guy pull a knife prior to the cop rolling up? Was he waving it around threatening people? Maybe he felt threatened by the cop and wanted to "stand his ground." Do black people not have a justifiable fear of the police, particularly when they just roll up and say "come here?" Just comply and he might have ended up dead as well, like the guy 3 years prior. Or Freddie Grey, etc. etc. etc.

    I blame the cop for trying to stop someone for jay walking. Its the 21st century for crying out loud. Or is this just more of "broken windows" policing because if you don't stop jay walking, the perps will be raping your women and stealing your shit?
    So police can't give tickets unless it warrants a deadly threat? The dude j-walked. The cop approached him, cops can give tickets for j-walking. They can give tickets for many other minor things like littering, loitering, bad parking job, etc. They are allowed to approach an individual with those infractions and give a ticket. That individual does not have a right to pull a knife on the cop for doing so.
    Now the cop probably could have deescalated it, I have agreed to that. I dont understand why anyone would still say this cop goes around killing people for j-walking. Why is it a big issue to enforce pedestrian laws, you act like it s acivil rights violation to enforce j-walking laws. That is clearly not what happened. He happened to j-walk, then pulled a knife on a cop. He was killed for threatening a cop with a knife. 
    And you continue to act as if the law is equally applied and that the consequences are the same for all offenders. Or maybe you believe white people don't jaywalk? Or that white people aren't treated differently by the police?

    To the bold, apparently only if you're white.
    I never said that. I'm just responding to the statement he was killed for j-walking. He wasn't. He j-walked, cop approached, he pulled a knife, was shot. The cop did not shoot him for j-walking. Had he not pulled the knife but j-walked 1000 times he'd still be alive. 
    I did not comment on the law being equally applied or not. That is you putting words in my mouth for pointing out facts. Facts being he pulled a knife and that was why he was shot. 
    After he pulled the knife, the cop had no other alternative? None? The cop put himself in the position of "fearing for his life." And a jaywalker was killed for it. The cop fucked up. Could have handled the situation a thousand different ways. There was no "threat." A fucking jaywalker. Dead. And if i were a black guy in CA, I'd certainly feel hunted and would want to protect myself from cops based on "facts."
    I already said he probably could have handled it better. It was a pocket knife, there probably was a better option. I'm not sure if you intentionally ignore those comments, you seem to repeat the same questions a lot.
    But according to your article, what was inappropriate about this? It was said (although I dont think by you) he was harassing the guy. Doesnt like like harassment to me.

    Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires.

    Police have the right to approach someone j-walking and cite them. All seems pretty normal and no reason to pull the knife. I don't understand why anyone would make excuses for someone pulling a knife for no reason. I haven't seen the video, but I would guess there probably were other options when faced with what was probably a small pocket knife. I never said the cop did everything right either. But lets also put some accountability on people pulling knives on cops for what appears to be a normal stop. 
    If you're black. Its jaywalking. Drive on. Why harass the guy? Because he was black and he could. 
    Where does it describe him as being harassed? Are cops not allowed to stop black people and give tickets? j-walking can get you a ticket. its not racist to give a black guy a ticket if he's j-walking.  But according to you police should not enforce any citations based on color? Giving a jaywalking ticket isnt harassing. Unless you can show me in the article where that happened. I quoted the majority of the exchange and it wasn't there. 
    it can seem like harassment, and very well might be, as jaywalking isn't really a normally enforced law. it seems only dick cops do it. 

    edit: at least not where I live. not once in my 46 years have I ever heard anyone say they've been ticketed for jaywalking. or even warned. 
    I agree seems like a lame citation. But I have friends who’ve been ticketed and I still never jaywalk if there’s a cop in sight. If I did get a ticket for it one day I’d probably think the cop was a duck. I wouldn’t pull a knife on him though. And even still, I don’t see ticketing for it alone as harassment. 
    In this case he wasnt even ticketed. He was just approaching him. Maybe he did harass him but there’s nothing in the article that even suggests he did. So I was just wondering why some described it as harassment when there was no mention of anything close to that.
    It's over policing, which many see as harassment. Are you incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective besides the police? 

    This isn't rocket science. 
    I agree its a ticky-tack ticket, I said as much. But I disagree with several things being said about this case. What I disagree with;
    He was not shot over j-walking. He pulled a knife, so people need ot stop saying he was shot over j-walking
    Ticky-0tack tickets do not equal harassment. 
    Do cops harass people? Ever? What would that look like, in your opinion?
    Sure they have. There's been examples posted here before. 
    But in the description of the video I see nothing that I would describe as harassment:

    "Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires."

    Which part exactly is harassment? Approaching someone for j-walking, that equals harassment? If that's your argument we'll just have to disagree and move on.
    I didn’t ask for examples of cops harassing people in this thread, I asked you to illustrate what you would consider cop harassment and what it would look like if trying to stop someone for jaywalking isn’t harassment in your view.
    I don’t know why some of us try here and in our outside lives with the “I’m not a racist but in this situation the cops were justified” racist crowd. It just becomes like the myth of Sisyphus pushing the rock and letting it roll back down again, just an endless punishment. I started posting here on amt during the beginning of quarantine and it boggles my mind how people can listen to this bands music and constantly side with state sanctioned violence against marginalized citizens. 
    so everyone who disagrees with you is a racist now. ok. 
    Yeah I was trying to understand what that statement meant.   

    I'm all for changes in policing.  It is very clear that it is needed.  I do wonder if we are all truly willing to deal with what it means in the short term potentially.  Let's take the shooting in Columbus for example.  Let's say police don;t grab for their guns...they end up engaging and disarming the girl with a knife, but instead of no harm coming to the person she was attacking when she was shot, now that other person gets stabbed.  Are we ok with that?  Those situations are extremely difficult to navigate for me.
    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    Post edited by static111 on
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,820
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJNB said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Can’t wait to hear the justification for this guy and how he did everything right. They should have just complied.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/23/us/andrew-hall-california-shootings-multiple-charges/index.html
    I won't say the cop did everything right. But I would advise against pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me."
    Slow day in Danville. Jaywalking is the “excuse” for confronting the dead suspect. “Come here.” I wonder if he added, “boy,” to the end of his command.
    I have no idea, but there's no mention that he did. 
    Will you not agree that pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me" is a bad idea?
    Of course it is. I am not even sure why you think you need to ask that question or make that point. Does it mean the cop should fulfill your wish? I would hope not. We all know what suicide by cop is and we all should know how serious mental health issues can be. 


    It was more a response to the comments "Can't wait to hear the justification and he should just comply." That comes across as putting no blame on the victim. Even when the cop is wrong, often the victim shares some responsibility. The cop shouldn't have shot, but you don't pull a knife on a cop either and say "kill me." They both share responsibility here.
    Jaywalking. Dead. Cops need to learn to prioritize the level of infraction in "To Serve & To Protect," and respond accordingly. Often the victim shares all of the responsibility based on a lot the pro-cop comments I've read.
    He wasn't killed for j-walking. He was killed because he pulled a knife on the cop, he just happened to have j-walked just prior to doing so. I wouldn't J-walk in front of a cop, I know they give out tickets for that. 
    The cop may have been able to deescalate the situation. But he definitely should not have pulled the knife either. If you're going to blame a cop for not deescalating a situation when faced with a knife, lets also blame the guy for pulling a knife on the cop and not say he was killed for j-walking. 
    He was killed for jaywalking. The cop could have yelled at him to get out of the street. The cop could have driven away. The cop escalated a situation that didn't need to be escalated, unless jaywalking is of such outrage and a threat to public safety that it demands a cop to respond? WTF? Did the guy pull a knife prior to the cop rolling up? Was he waving it around threatening people? Maybe he felt threatened by the cop and wanted to "stand his ground." Do black people not have a justifiable fear of the police, particularly when they just roll up and say "come here?" Just comply and he might have ended up dead as well, like the guy 3 years prior. Or Freddie Grey, etc. etc. etc.

    I blame the cop for trying to stop someone for jay walking. Its the 21st century for crying out loud. Or is this just more of "broken windows" policing because if you don't stop jay walking, the perps will be raping your women and stealing your shit?
    So police can't give tickets unless it warrants a deadly threat? The dude j-walked. The cop approached him, cops can give tickets for j-walking. They can give tickets for many other minor things like littering, loitering, bad parking job, etc. They are allowed to approach an individual with those infractions and give a ticket. That individual does not have a right to pull a knife on the cop for doing so.
    Now the cop probably could have deescalated it, I have agreed to that. I dont understand why anyone would still say this cop goes around killing people for j-walking. Why is it a big issue to enforce pedestrian laws, you act like it s acivil rights violation to enforce j-walking laws. That is clearly not what happened. He happened to j-walk, then pulled a knife on a cop. He was killed for threatening a cop with a knife. 
    And you continue to act as if the law is equally applied and that the consequences are the same for all offenders. Or maybe you believe white people don't jaywalk? Or that white people aren't treated differently by the police?

    To the bold, apparently only if you're white.
    I never said that. I'm just responding to the statement he was killed for j-walking. He wasn't. He j-walked, cop approached, he pulled a knife, was shot. The cop did not shoot him for j-walking. Had he not pulled the knife but j-walked 1000 times he'd still be alive. 
    I did not comment on the law being equally applied or not. That is you putting words in my mouth for pointing out facts. Facts being he pulled a knife and that was why he was shot. 
    After he pulled the knife, the cop had no other alternative? None? The cop put himself in the position of "fearing for his life." And a jaywalker was killed for it. The cop fucked up. Could have handled the situation a thousand different ways. There was no "threat." A fucking jaywalker. Dead. And if i were a black guy in CA, I'd certainly feel hunted and would want to protect myself from cops based on "facts."
    I already said he probably could have handled it better. It was a pocket knife, there probably was a better option. I'm not sure if you intentionally ignore those comments, you seem to repeat the same questions a lot.
    But according to your article, what was inappropriate about this? It was said (although I dont think by you) he was harassing the guy. Doesnt like like harassment to me.

    Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires.

    Police have the right to approach someone j-walking and cite them. All seems pretty normal and no reason to pull the knife. I don't understand why anyone would make excuses for someone pulling a knife for no reason. I haven't seen the video, but I would guess there probably were other options when faced with what was probably a small pocket knife. I never said the cop did everything right either. But lets also put some accountability on people pulling knives on cops for what appears to be a normal stop. 
    If you're black. Its jaywalking. Drive on. Why harass the guy? Because he was black and he could. 
    Where does it describe him as being harassed? Are cops not allowed to stop black people and give tickets? j-walking can get you a ticket. its not racist to give a black guy a ticket if he's j-walking.  But according to you police should not enforce any citations based on color? Giving a jaywalking ticket isnt harassing. Unless you can show me in the article where that happened. I quoted the majority of the exchange and it wasn't there. 
    it can seem like harassment, and very well might be, as jaywalking isn't really a normally enforced law. it seems only dick cops do it. 

    edit: at least not where I live. not once in my 46 years have I ever heard anyone say they've been ticketed for jaywalking. or even warned. 
    I agree seems like a lame citation. But I have friends who’ve been ticketed and I still never jaywalk if there’s a cop in sight. If I did get a ticket for it one day I’d probably think the cop was a duck. I wouldn’t pull a knife on him though. And even still, I don’t see ticketing for it alone as harassment. 
    In this case he wasnt even ticketed. He was just approaching him. Maybe he did harass him but there’s nothing in the article that even suggests he did. So I was just wondering why some described it as harassment when there was no mention of anything close to that.
    It's over policing, which many see as harassment. Are you incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective besides the police? 

    This isn't rocket science. 
    I agree its a ticky-tack ticket, I said as much. But I disagree with several things being said about this case. What I disagree with;
    He was not shot over j-walking. He pulled a knife, so people need ot stop saying he was shot over j-walking
    Ticky-0tack tickets do not equal harassment. 
    Do cops harass people? Ever? What would that look like, in your opinion?
    Sure they have. There's been examples posted here before. 
    But in the description of the video I see nothing that I would describe as harassment:

    "Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires."

    Which part exactly is harassment? Approaching someone for j-walking, that equals harassment? If that's your argument we'll just have to disagree and move on.
    I didn’t ask for examples of cops harassing people in this thread, I asked you to illustrate what you would consider cop harassment and what it would look like if trying to stop someone for jaywalking isn’t harassment in your view.
    I don’t know why some of us try here and in our outside lives with the “I’m not a racist but in this situation the cops were justified” racist crowd. It just becomes like the myth of Sisyphus pushing the rock and letting it roll back down again, just an endless punishment. I started posting here on amt during the beginning of quarantine and it boggles my mind how people can listen to this bands music and constantly side with state sanctioned violence against marginalized citizens. 
    so everyone who disagrees with you is a racist now. ok. 
    Yeah I was trying to understand what that statement meant.   

    I'm all for changes in policing.  It is very clear that it is needed.  I do wonder if we are all truly willing to deal with what it means in the short term potentially.  Let's take the shooting in Columbus for example.  Let's say police don;t grab for their guns...they end up engaging and disarming the girl with a knife, but instead of no harm coming to the person she was attacking when she was shot, now that other person gets stabbed.  Are we ok with that?  Those situations are extremely difficult to navigate for me.
    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    Justifying killing a person with a knife over a person about to be stabbed. 

    I understand your overall points and very valid. I do not think it just applies blindly whenever a cop and an African American are involved in an altercation. 

    Comparing it to slavery is a weird statement to me. And I do not fully understand the point of your last sentence. Is this directed at me or is this a general statement?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    @cincybearcat

    “Comparing it to slavery is a weird statement to me. And I do not fully understand the point of your last sentence. Is this directed at me or is this a general statement?“

    couldn’t get the quote function to work. Not directed at you, directed at the comments in general. Until the system is completely overhauled and applied equally and cops are held accountable  and trained not to escalate situations by trying to gain compliance by force, to me any justification of one killing over the other is just ludicrous.  The comparison of American policing to slavery is that both are things inherently designed to keep Black people down.  Certain people spend so much time and energy
    trying to immediately justify the actions of officers, rather than spending that time and energy on something positive like reforming or recreating the current system.  So for me the behavior of justifying an action in a broken system rather than being critical of the system itself comes across, especially when we are talking about police killing Black Americans, with the same energy of someone 200 years ago justifying one whipping over another but not realizing that the real problem was the system that allowed the whipping in the first place.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,911
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJNB said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Can’t wait to hear the justification for this guy and how he did everything right. They should have just complied.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/23/us/andrew-hall-california-shootings-multiple-charges/index.html
    I won't say the cop did everything right. But I would advise against pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me."
    Slow day in Danville. Jaywalking is the “excuse” for confronting the dead suspect. “Come here.” I wonder if he added, “boy,” to the end of his command.
    I have no idea, but there's no mention that he did. 
    Will you not agree that pulling a knife on a cop and saying "kill me" is a bad idea?
    Of course it is. I am not even sure why you think you need to ask that question or make that point. Does it mean the cop should fulfill your wish? I would hope not. We all know what suicide by cop is and we all should know how serious mental health issues can be. 


    It was more a response to the comments "Can't wait to hear the justification and he should just comply." That comes across as putting no blame on the victim. Even when the cop is wrong, often the victim shares some responsibility. The cop shouldn't have shot, but you don't pull a knife on a cop either and say "kill me." They both share responsibility here.
    Jaywalking. Dead. Cops need to learn to prioritize the level of infraction in "To Serve & To Protect," and respond accordingly. Often the victim shares all of the responsibility based on a lot the pro-cop comments I've read.
    He wasn't killed for j-walking. He was killed because he pulled a knife on the cop, he just happened to have j-walked just prior to doing so. I wouldn't J-walk in front of a cop, I know they give out tickets for that. 
    The cop may have been able to deescalate the situation. But he definitely should not have pulled the knife either. If you're going to blame a cop for not deescalating a situation when faced with a knife, lets also blame the guy for pulling a knife on the cop and not say he was killed for j-walking. 
    He was killed for jaywalking. The cop could have yelled at him to get out of the street. The cop could have driven away. The cop escalated a situation that didn't need to be escalated, unless jaywalking is of such outrage and a threat to public safety that it demands a cop to respond? WTF? Did the guy pull a knife prior to the cop rolling up? Was he waving it around threatening people? Maybe he felt threatened by the cop and wanted to "stand his ground." Do black people not have a justifiable fear of the police, particularly when they just roll up and say "come here?" Just comply and he might have ended up dead as well, like the guy 3 years prior. Or Freddie Grey, etc. etc. etc.

    I blame the cop for trying to stop someone for jay walking. Its the 21st century for crying out loud. Or is this just more of "broken windows" policing because if you don't stop jay walking, the perps will be raping your women and stealing your shit?
    So police can't give tickets unless it warrants a deadly threat? The dude j-walked. The cop approached him, cops can give tickets for j-walking. They can give tickets for many other minor things like littering, loitering, bad parking job, etc. They are allowed to approach an individual with those infractions and give a ticket. That individual does not have a right to pull a knife on the cop for doing so.
    Now the cop probably could have deescalated it, I have agreed to that. I dont understand why anyone would still say this cop goes around killing people for j-walking. Why is it a big issue to enforce pedestrian laws, you act like it s acivil rights violation to enforce j-walking laws. That is clearly not what happened. He happened to j-walk, then pulled a knife on a cop. He was killed for threatening a cop with a knife. 
    And you continue to act as if the law is equally applied and that the consequences are the same for all offenders. Or maybe you believe white people don't jaywalk? Or that white people aren't treated differently by the police?

    To the bold, apparently only if you're white.
    I never said that. I'm just responding to the statement he was killed for j-walking. He wasn't. He j-walked, cop approached, he pulled a knife, was shot. The cop did not shoot him for j-walking. Had he not pulled the knife but j-walked 1000 times he'd still be alive. 
    I did not comment on the law being equally applied or not. That is you putting words in my mouth for pointing out facts. Facts being he pulled a knife and that was why he was shot. 
    After he pulled the knife, the cop had no other alternative? None? The cop put himself in the position of "fearing for his life." And a jaywalker was killed for it. The cop fucked up. Could have handled the situation a thousand different ways. There was no "threat." A fucking jaywalker. Dead. And if i were a black guy in CA, I'd certainly feel hunted and would want to protect myself from cops based on "facts."
    I already said he probably could have handled it better. It was a pocket knife, there probably was a better option. I'm not sure if you intentionally ignore those comments, you seem to repeat the same questions a lot.
    But according to your article, what was inappropriate about this? It was said (although I dont think by you) he was harassing the guy. Doesnt like like harassment to me.

    Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires.

    Police have the right to approach someone j-walking and cite them. All seems pretty normal and no reason to pull the knife. I don't understand why anyone would make excuses for someone pulling a knife for no reason. I haven't seen the video, but I would guess there probably were other options when faced with what was probably a small pocket knife. I never said the cop did everything right either. But lets also put some accountability on people pulling knives on cops for what appears to be a normal stop. 
    If you're black. Its jaywalking. Drive on. Why harass the guy? Because he was black and he could. 
    Where does it describe him as being harassed? Are cops not allowed to stop black people and give tickets? j-walking can get you a ticket. its not racist to give a black guy a ticket if he's j-walking.  But according to you police should not enforce any citations based on color? Giving a jaywalking ticket isnt harassing. Unless you can show me in the article where that happened. I quoted the majority of the exchange and it wasn't there. 
    it can seem like harassment, and very well might be, as jaywalking isn't really a normally enforced law. it seems only dick cops do it. 

    edit: at least not where I live. not once in my 46 years have I ever heard anyone say they've been ticketed for jaywalking. or even warned. 
    I agree seems like a lame citation. But I have friends who’ve been ticketed and I still never jaywalk if there’s a cop in sight. If I did get a ticket for it one day I’d probably think the cop was a duck. I wouldn’t pull a knife on him though. And even still, I don’t see ticketing for it alone as harassment. 
    In this case he wasnt even ticketed. He was just approaching him. Maybe he did harass him but there’s nothing in the article that even suggests he did. So I was just wondering why some described it as harassment when there was no mention of anything close to that.
    It's over policing, which many see as harassment. Are you incapable of seeing things from anyone else's perspective besides the police? 

    This isn't rocket science. 
    I agree its a ticky-tack ticket, I said as much. But I disagree with several things being said about this case. What I disagree with;
    He was not shot over j-walking. He pulled a knife, so people need ot stop saying he was shot over j-walking
    Ticky-0tack tickets do not equal harassment. 
    Do cops harass people? Ever? What would that look like, in your opinion?
    Sure they have. There's been examples posted here before. 
    But in the description of the video I see nothing that I would describe as harassment:

    "Danville Police said Hall approached Wilson on March 11 and tried to talk to him, but "the subject pulled out a folding knife and then opened it."
    While Hall ordered Wilson to drop the knife several times, Wilson "advanced toward the officer," and Hall discharged his weapon, police said.
    The new bodycam video shows the officer asking Wilson to "come here" and Wilson refusing to do so, asking the officer, "who are you?" According to the video, Hall tells Wilson he's jaywalking and approaches him. Wilson steps back and tells Hall not to touch him, before he is seen pulling out a knife, the video shows.
    In the video, Hall tells Wilson to drop the knife and Wilson says, "kill me," before Hall fires."

    Which part exactly is harassment? Approaching someone for j-walking, that equals harassment? If that's your argument we'll just have to disagree and move on.
    I didn’t ask for examples of cops harassing people in this thread, I asked you to illustrate what you would consider cop harassment and what it would look like if trying to stop someone for jaywalking isn’t harassment in your view.
    I don’t know why some of us try here and in our outside lives with the “I’m not a racist but in this situation the cops were justified” racist crowd. It just becomes like the myth of Sisyphus pushing the rock and letting it roll back down again, just an endless punishment. I started posting here on amt during the beginning of quarantine and it boggles my mind how people can listen to this bands music and constantly side with state sanctioned violence against marginalized citizens. 
    so everyone who disagrees with you is a racist now. ok. 
    Yeah I was trying to understand what that statement meant.   

    I'm all for changes in policing.  It is very clear that it is needed.  I do wonder if we are all truly willing to deal with what it means in the short term potentially.  Let's take the shooting in Columbus for example.  Let's say police don;t grab for their guns...they end up engaging and disarming the girl with a knife, but instead of no harm coming to the person she was attacking when she was shot, now that other person gets stabbed.  Are we ok with that?  Those situations are extremely difficult to navigate for me.
    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,547
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,547
    static111 said:

    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    You're a racist for not seeing color.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,820
    static111 said:
    @cincybearcat

    “Comparing it to slavery is a weird statement to me. And I do not fully understand the point of your last sentence. Is this directed at me or is this a general statement?“

    couldn’t get the quote function to work. Not directed at you, directed at the comments in general. Until the system is completely overhauled and applied equally and cops are held accountable  and trained not to escalate situations by trying to gain compliance by force, to me any justification of one killing over the other is just ludicrous.  The comparison of American policing to slavery is that both are things inherently designed to keep Black people down.  Certain people spend so much time and energy
    trying to immediately justify the actions of officers, rather than spending that time and energy on something positive like reforming or recreating the current system.  So for me the behavior of justifying an action in a broken system rather than being critical of the system itself comes across, especially when we are talking about police killing Black Americans, with the same energy of someone 200 years ago justifying one whipping over another but not realizing that the real problem was the system that allowed the whipping in the first place.
    Ok, thanks for the clarification.  Yes, biased policing certainly is designed to keep people in their place.  I think it's very fair to discuss the system, etc in all of these instances.  What I do not agree with is always wanting the individual police officer to be fired, convicted, and jailed.  Sometimes, they are following their training.  So - I could see how an individual police officer avoids charges.  Except in the extreme cases (like George Floyd), the discussion should be far more about the system and a lot less about the specific officer involved.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,820
    static111 said:

    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    You're a racist for not seeing color.
    Well you have to see color to understand the full case.  It is part of it.  You cannot ignore it.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,059
    static111 said:

    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    You're a racist for not seeing color.
    The "I don't see colour" phrase is such total bs. There are reams of data showing that yes, all humans "see colour", right from infancy. We all have biases, both conscious and unconscious, about a whole range of traits, including unfortunately skin colour. The issue is what we choose to do about those biases and how much effort we put into becoming aware and mindful. Those who talk about not "seeing colour" are likely either lacking in self awareness or aren't willing to put in the effort to recognize and work on them. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,547
    static111 said:

    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    You're a racist for not seeing color.
    Well you have to see color to understand the full case.  It is part of it.  You cannot ignore it.
    static111 said:

    Justifying killing certain black people over others is problematic, especially when we say stupid things like “why did he run” well do we or do we not live in a society where a black man is almost three times as likely as a white man to be killed by a cop, while only making up 13% of the population?  Do African Americans not get harsher and longer sentences for minor crimes than whites? The problem is the system of policing in America with deep roots in slavery, Jim Crow, good ol boy racism and false cultural narratives.  America wants to pretend it doesn’t have a racism problem and we need to address that especially when it comes to policing and incarceration.  Until the law is applied fairly and equally to all and we have a better system in place, the idea of saying the police killing of any black person is justified is a non starter.  Justifying the police killing one African American over another really has the same energy as saying, well that slave didn’t deserve to get whipped but this other slave had a justifiable whipping, while not realizing the problem is slavery, not an individual enslaved persons behavior.  It’s hard to deal with the justifiers of a racist police system and that justifying a racist police system makes you racist.
    applying a blanket "if you disagree with this statement, you are racist" is nonsense. and a "non starter". I judge each case based on the merits of the case, not if the person was black or not. that's just absurd. that would be akin to saying every single black person on trial should automatically be found not guilty until the system is fixed. 
    You're a racist for not seeing color.
    The "I don't see colour" phrase is such total bs. There are reams of data showing that yes, all humans "see colour", right from infancy. We all have biases, both conscious and unconscious, about a whole range of traits, including unfortunately skin colour. The issue is what we choose to do about those biases and how much effort we put into becoming aware and mindful. Those who talk about not "seeing colour" are likely either lacking in self awareness or aren't willing to put in the effort to recognize and work on them. 
    It was meant as a joke.

    Trying to explain yourself nowadays and saying "I don't see color" and saying that they are lacking and not seeing it is just dumb to me.

    How else do you explain yourself tactfully that would make you happy that a persons skin color wasn't why you came up w the decision you did?  Honest question.  I proposed this to someone else and they didn't have an answer but dismissed what I said.


  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,183
    Here's the cop that wrote the above letter to LeBron. Very level-headed and smart guy. Just looking to start a dialogue between cops and the public....


    "But you posted a video from FauxNews"

    How dare you?  I prefer to get my news from the Washington Post where they teach me how to film police encounters so I can "stay in control of the narrative".  How does this in any way help move the conversation along?

    image
    This is a good idea.
    The more citizens filming cops being bad the better.
    Imagine if that teenage girl hadn't stood her ground in Minneapolis. 
    Absolutely, 100% with you.  But why use the language of controlling a narrative?  Saying officer-worn body cameras can obscure the truth?

    Why not just release the videos and let the facts speak for themselves?  

    What controlling the narrative might look like:

    https://pasquotankgop.com/andrew-browns-arrest-record-and-legacy/

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,592
    Ummmm, sure.

    Disclaimer: The statements posted here do not necessarily reflect the views of the entire Pasquotank GOP, Pasquotank Republican Party, or all Republicans in Pasquotank County.
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  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    edited April 29
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
    In most of the cases I’ve seen on video or interactions I’ve had with actual police it seems that the police are usually the ones that escalate the situation. So yes escalating does often lead to worse outcomes but more often than not the police are like accelerants and immediately try to command control through force.  My view is the professionals with authorization of state sanctioned deadly force, not the public at large, should be the ones trained to deescalate and keep their cool.  I mean no other country seems to have these problems.  
    Post edited by static111 on
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,820
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
    In most of the cases I’ve seen on video or interactions I’ve had with actual police it seems that the police are usually the ones that escalate the situation. So yes escalating does often lead to worse outcomes but more often than not the police are like accelerants and immediately try to command control through force.  My view is the professionals with authorization of state sanctioned deadly force, not the public at large, should be the ones trained to deescalate and keep their cool.  I mean no other country seems to have these problems.  
    Agree re- training to de-escalate.  

    No other country has these problems...probably cause their citizens aren't armed to the gills. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,911
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
    In most of the cases I’ve seen on video or interactions I’ve had with actual police it seems that the police are usually the ones that escalate the situation. So yes escalating does often lead to worse outcomes but more often than not the police are like accelerants and immediately try to command control through force.  My view is the professionals with authorization of state sanctioned deadly force, not the public at large, should be the ones trained to deescalate and keep their cool.  I mean no other country seems to have these problems.  
    Agree re- training to de-escalate.  

    No other country has these problems...probably cause their citizens aren't armed to the gills. 
    i'm sure that is a lot of it. 
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  • static111static111 Posts: 2,507
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
    In most of the cases I’ve seen on video or interactions I’ve had with actual police it seems that the police are usually the ones that escalate the situation. So yes escalating does often lead to worse outcomes but more often than not the police are like accelerants and immediately try to command control through force.  My view is the professionals with authorization of state sanctioned deadly force, not the public at large, should be the ones trained to deescalate and keep their cool.  I mean no other country seems to have these problems.  
    Agree re- training to de-escalate.  

    No other country has these problems...probably cause their citizens aren't armed to the gills. 
    It’s insane that in most cases these deaths occur because of the possibility of a theoretical weapon that may exist coupled with systemic racism.  Only a small amount of people that have been killed while Black have had actual weapons whereas actual armed whites seem to be brought in no problem. It’s sad.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,981
    edited April 29
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    From our wonderful police departments officers union. ...

    I have zero problems w this.  Escalation in a situation is bad yet people don't think it plays a role in what made the outcome.
    In most of the cases I’ve seen on video or interactions I’ve had with actual police it seems that the police are usually the ones that escalate the situation. So yes escalating does often lead to worse outcomes but more often than not the police are like accelerants and immediately try to command control through force.  My view is the professionals with authorization of state sanctioned deadly force, not the public at large, should be the ones trained to deescalate and keep their cool.  I mean no other country seems to have these problems.  
    Agree re- training to de-escalate.  

    No other country has these problems...probably cause their citizens aren't armed to the gills. 
    It’s insane that in most cases these deaths occur because of the possibility of a theoretical weapon that may exist coupled with systemic racism.  Only a small amount of people that have been killed while Black have had actual weapons whereas actual armed whites seem to be brought in no problem. It’s sad.
    Where are you getting that? Most police shootings are armed. I've never heard anyone argue anything different actually. Havent had time to look through a lot of sources, here is one of the first:

    "It’s rare for police to kill anyone. A black man is more likely to be killed by lightning than by a police officer. In 2019, police shot and killed 1,003 people in the US, according to the Washington Post’s Fatal Force database. Of those, 250 were black and 405 white. Police shot and killed 55 unarmed suspects, including 25 whites and 14 blacks"

    14 of 250 were unarmed. That is not a small amount of people actually being armed. 

    Higgins: Enough of the lying – just look at the data. There’s no epidemic of racist police officers killing black Americans. | Citizens Journal | Citizens Journal

    Not familiar with the source, but see similiar results on almost all I saw. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,592
    From the WaPo's database today, not 2019. Tallied since 2015. 

    In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

    Jump to the database

    After Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

    The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

    Rate of shootings remains steady

    Despite the unpredictable events that lead to fatal shootings, police nationwide have shot and killed almost the same number of people annually — nearly 1,000 — since The Post began its project. Probability theory may offer an explanation. It holds that the quantity of rare events in huge populations tends to remain stable absent major societal changes, such as a fundamental shift in police culture or extreme restrictions on gun ownership.

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.
    Filtered by gun possession:

    3,642 people shot and killed by police match your filters (58%)

    2,599 people do not match your filters (42%)

    Filtered by knife possession:

    1,076 people shot and killed by police match your filters (17%)

    5,165 people do not match your filters (83%)

    Filtered by car as a weapon:

    199 people shot and killed by police match your filters (3%)

    6,042 people do not match your filters (97%)

    Filtered by toy weapon:

    226 people shot and killed by police match your filters (4%)

    6,015 people do not match your filters (96%)

    Filtered by Other weapon:

    527 people shot and killed by police match your filters (8%)

    5,714 people do not match your filters (92%)

    Filtered by unarmed:

    402 people shot and killed by police match your filters (6%)

    5,839 people do not match your filters (94%)

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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,981
    From the WaPo's database today, not 2019. Tallied since 2015. 

    In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

    Jump to the database

    After Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

    The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

    Rate of shootings remains steady

    Despite the unpredictable events that lead to fatal shootings, police nationwide have shot and killed almost the same number of people annually — nearly 1,000 — since The Post began its project. Probability theory may offer an explanation. It holds that the quantity of rare events in huge populations tends to remain stable absent major societal changes, such as a fundamental shift in police culture or extreme restrictions on gun ownership.

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.
    Filtered by gun possession:

    3,642 people shot and killed by police match your filters (58%)

    2,599 people do not match your filters (42%)

    Filtered by knife possession:

    1,076 people shot and killed by police match your filters (17%)

    5,165 people do not match your filters (83%)

    Filtered by car as a weapon:

    199 people shot and killed by police match your filters (3%)

    6,042 people do not match your filters (97%)

    Filtered by toy weapon:

    226 people shot and killed by police match your filters (4%)

    6,015 people do not match your filters (96%)

    Filtered by Other weapon:

    527 people shot and killed by police match your filters (8%)

    5,714 people do not match your filters (92%)

    Filtered by unarmed:

    402 people shot and killed by police match your filters (6%)

    5,839 people do not match your filters (94%)

    I'm not sure if this was a response to my post or not. But also supports that the majority of those shot were armed. Counting toy guns and unarmed together that is 10% of shootings.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,592
    mace1229 said:
    From the WaPo's database today, not 2019. Tallied since 2015. 

    In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

    Jump to the database

    After Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

    The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

    Rate of shootings remains steady

    Despite the unpredictable events that lead to fatal shootings, police nationwide have shot and killed almost the same number of people annually — nearly 1,000 — since The Post began its project. Probability theory may offer an explanation. It holds that the quantity of rare events in huge populations tends to remain stable absent major societal changes, such as a fundamental shift in police culture or extreme restrictions on gun ownership.

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.
    Filtered by gun possession:

    3,642 people shot and killed by police match your filters (58%)

    2,599 people do not match your filters (42%)

    Filtered by knife possession:

    1,076 people shot and killed by police match your filters (17%)

    5,165 people do not match your filters (83%)

    Filtered by car as a weapon:

    199 people shot and killed by police match your filters (3%)

    6,042 people do not match your filters (97%)

    Filtered by toy weapon:

    226 people shot and killed by police match your filters (4%)

    6,015 people do not match your filters (96%)

    Filtered by Other weapon:

    527 people shot and killed by police match your filters (8%)

    5,714 people do not match your filters (92%)

    Filtered by unarmed:

    402 people shot and killed by police match your filters (6%)

    5,839 people do not match your filters (94%)

    I'm not sure if this was a response to my post or not. But also supports that the majority of those shot were armed. Counting toy guns and unarmed together that is 10% of shootings.
    Relax, its context, particularly this part:

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,592
    From the link in the paragraph I copied:

    U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times larger than the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,981
    edited April 29
    mace1229 said:
    From the WaPo's database today, not 2019. Tallied since 2015. 

    In 2015, The Washington Post began to log every fatal shooting by an on-duty police officer in the United States. In that time there have been more than 5,000 such shootings recorded by The Post.

    Jump to the database

    After Michael Brown, an unarmed Black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo., a Post investigation found that the FBI undercounted fatal police shootings by more than half. This is because reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so.

    The Post’s data relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports. Analysis of more than five years of data reveals that the number and circumstances of fatal shootings and the overall demographics of the victims have remained relatively constant.

    Rate of shootings remains steady

    Despite the unpredictable events that lead to fatal shootings, police nationwide have shot and killed almost the same number of people annually — nearly 1,000 — since The Post began its project. Probability theory may offer an explanation. It holds that the quantity of rare events in huge populations tends to remain stable absent major societal changes, such as a fundamental shift in police culture or extreme restrictions on gun ownership.

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.
    Filtered by gun possession:

    3,642 people shot and killed by police match your filters (58%)

    2,599 people do not match your filters (42%)

    Filtered by knife possession:

    1,076 people shot and killed by police match your filters (17%)

    5,165 people do not match your filters (83%)

    Filtered by car as a weapon:

    199 people shot and killed by police match your filters (3%)

    6,042 people do not match your filters (97%)

    Filtered by toy weapon:

    226 people shot and killed by police match your filters (4%)

    6,015 people do not match your filters (96%)

    Filtered by Other weapon:

    527 people shot and killed by police match your filters (8%)

    5,714 people do not match your filters (92%)

    Filtered by unarmed:

    402 people shot and killed by police match your filters (6%)

    5,839 people do not match your filters (94%)

    I'm not sure if this was a response to my post or not. But also supports that the majority of those shot were armed. Counting toy guns and unarmed together that is 10% of shootings.
    Relax, its context, particularly this part:

    Black Americans are killed at a much higher rate than White Americans

    Although half of the people shot and killed by police are White, Black Americans are shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for less than 13 percent of the U.S. population, but are killed by police at more than twice the rate of White Americans. Hispanic Americans are also killed by police at a disproportionate rate.

    The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans.

    I have never disputed that. I assumed you were responding to my comment about the number of unarmed shooting victims. A claim was made that only a small portion of shootings are for armed individuals, and that most are unarmed. That isn't true. Since you provided a breakdown of statistics I assumed that was what you were getting at. If that wasn't you were responding to then I did not mean to comment. 
    Post edited by mace1229 on
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