Simple question: Do you support Israel's right to exist?

lolobugg

it is, my friend
I had started to feel better when we got fucking Bush out finally.
now we are going backwards again

badbrains

lolobugg said:

it is, my friend
I had started to feel better when we got fucking Bush out finally.
now we are going backwards again

Makes you wonder right? Like all presidents share SAME policies and can't think for themselves. Not 1 of them

rr165892

fuck said:

rr165892 said:

Byrnzie,A point I was trying to get across earlier although my thoughts may not translate so well is this.By concessions and compromise I am referring to an end game,not rear view mirror stuff.
I truly think both sides have some horrible game plans and flaws in strategy.
On the Palestinian side I think if Hamas quit lobbing bombs 100% then All excuses would be off the table for the Israelis.For the first time in decades you have the worlds ear and they are seeing your plight.Play the peaceful underdog card here and watch how more people take notice.Like it or not Hamas Clouds your message and trivializes it to some degree.You give your opponent a reason to continue.I think this was played wrong by the powers that be,and your cause could have really used it to your advantage.
On the Israeli side they woulda been better off trying to turn regular Palestinians against Hamas by giving them a Nugget of good will,like a loosening of Shoreline restrictions and open things up a bit,Making Hamas(Israel's intended enemy)Look like the bad guy.They should have ignored a little of the bombing and said to the world "look at how tolerant we are,We are doing no retaliating against Hamas as the bomb us"Again gaining a propaganda edge.
Dumb ass strategies employed now by both sides.
This conflict has to be won with politics,not war.Hamas can not and will not win militarily.The best play to really help the people is to stop the bombs and let the world opinion and propaganda play out.

Your entire post here shows that you lack a very basic understanding of the nature of Zionism.

The Israeli war on Gaza is not a betrayal of Zionism. It is its fulfillment. Pure and simple.

And guess what? International law says that a people under occupation have the right to resist it. The onus is not on Hamas, who you hysterically consider "one of the powers" in this conflict (are you shitting me?). It is on Israel.

Fuck(great name btw),
Zionism?????What does that have to do with effective strategies toward winning a Pr war or Strategy.Im not sure what your trying to say.Im talking about mistakes in my opinion on how each side could have furthered there cause/perception.

lolobugg

badbrains said:

lolobugg said:

it is, my friend
I had started to feel better when we got fucking Bush out finally.
now we are going backwards again

Makes you wonder right? Like all presidents share SAME policies and can't think for themselves. Not 1 of them

too afraid of alienating special interests...
we haven't had a president in the white house that wasn't bought and sold 100% since Carter
(mysteriously) during that time we were not "officially" in any war.

rr165892

JimmyV said:

It is an embarrassing time to be an American. No doubt.

Don't let one bad policy in your opinion spoil you on the Hundreds/Thousands of benevolent and wonderful things we do around the world as a country.We are far from perfect,But who is?

Remember we give Pakistan(3.2 bill) and Afghanistan (3.9 bil) 2012 numbers, and almost a billion more a year then Israel.Also 2/3 of our foreign aid money goes to Muslim countries.(Source is Forbes).with another big chunk to Arab based countries.

badbrains

lolobugg said:

badbrains said:

lolobugg said:

it is, my friend
I had started to feel better when we got fucking Bush out finally.
now we are going backwards again

Makes you wonder right? Like all presidents share SAME policies and can't think for themselves. Not 1 of them

too afraid of alienating special interests...
we haven't had a president in the white house that wasn't bought and sold 100% since Carter
(mysteriously) during that time we were not "officially" in any war.

I like you.....
=D>

badbrains

rr165892 said:

JimmyV said:

It is an embarrassing time to be an American. No doubt.

Don't let one bad policy in your opinion spoil you on the Hundreds/Thousands of benevolent and wonderful things we do around the world as a country.We are far from perfect,But who is?

Remember we give Pakistan(3.2 bill) and Afghanistan (3.9 bil) 2012 numbers, and almost a billion more a year then Israel.Also 2/3 of our foreign aid money goes to Muslim countries.(Source is Forbes).with another big chunk to Arab based countries.

The 3 billion we give Israel is in military aid. There's more in other forms of aid. I've read anywhere from 7-9 billion total and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the taxes of israeli citizens who work in the US go to Israel too? I was told that but I have no idea if it's true. Maybe someone can add to this.

rr165892

badbrains said:

rr165892 said:

JimmyV said:

It is an embarrassing time to be an American. No doubt.

Don't let one bad policy in your opinion spoil you on the Hundreds/Thousands of benevolent and wonderful things we do around the world as a country.We are far from perfect,But who is?

Remember we give Pakistan(3.2 bill) and Afghanistan (3.9 bil) 2012 numbers, and almost a billion more a year then Israel.Also 2/3 of our foreign aid money goes to Muslim countries.(Source is Forbes).with another big chunk to Arab based countries.

The 3 billion we give Israel is in military aid. There's more in other forms of aid. I've read anywhere from 7-9 billion total and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the taxes of israeli citizens who work in the US go to Israel too? I was told that but I have no idea if it's true. Maybe someone can add to this.

Don't ask me.Never heard that.But the aid was in total according to article.But I could be wrong.Im no economist.Its ALOT to Cash to all,I know that.

badbrains

rr165892 said:

badbrains said:

rr165892 said:

JimmyV said:

It is an embarrassing time to be an American. No doubt.

Don't let one bad policy in your opinion spoil you on the Hundreds/Thousands of benevolent and wonderful things we do around the world as a country.We are far from perfect,But who is?

Remember we give Pakistan(3.2 bill) and Afghanistan (3.9 bil) 2012 numbers, and almost a billion more a year then Israel.Also 2/3 of our foreign aid money goes to Muslim countries.(Source is Forbes).with another big chunk to Arab based countries.

The 3 billion we give Israel is in military aid. There's more in other forms of aid. I've read anywhere from 7-9 billion total and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the taxes of israeli citizens who work in the US go to Israel too? I was told that but I have no idea if it's true. Maybe someone can add to this.

Don't ask me.Never heard that.But the aid was in total according to article.But I could be wrong.Im no economist.Its ALOT to Cash to all,I know that.

No doubt, imagine how great and strong our country would be if we didn't. Official super power!

mickeyrat

OP. I have a simple question for you. Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

fuck

benjs said:

fuck said:

rr165892 said:

Byrnzie,A point I was trying to get across earlier although my thoughts may not translate so well is this.By concessions and compromise I am referring to an end game,not rear view mirror stuff.
I truly think both sides have some horrible game plans and flaws in strategy.
On the Palestinian side I think if Hamas quit lobbing bombs 100% then All excuses would be off the table for the Israelis.For the first time in decades you have the worlds ear and they are seeing your plight.Play the peaceful underdog card here and watch how more people take notice.Like it or not Hamas Clouds your message and trivializes it to some degree.You give your opponent a reason to continue.I think this was played wrong by the powers that be,and your cause could have really used it to your advantage.
On the Israeli side they woulda been better off trying to turn regular Palestinians against Hamas by giving them a Nugget of good will,like a loosening of Shoreline restrictions and open things up a bit,Making Hamas(Israel's intended enemy)Look like the bad guy.They should have ignored a little of the bombing and said to the world "look at how tolerant we are,We are doing no retaliating against Hamas as the bomb us"Again gaining a propaganda edge.
Dumb ass strategies employed now by both sides.
This conflict has to be won with politics,not war.Hamas can not and will not win militarily.The best play to really help the people is to stop the bombs and let the world opinion and propaganda play out.

Your entire post here shows that you lack a very basic understanding of the nature of Zionism.

The Israeli war on Gaza is not a betrayal of Zionism. It is its fulfillment. Pure and simple.

And guess what? International law says that a people under occupation have the right to resist it. The onus is not on Hamas, who you hysterically consider "one of the powers" in this conflict (are you shitting me?). It is on Israel.

fuck, I had only ever heard of this being the 'fulfillment of Zionism' from particularly religious people, who I had written off as extremist zealots and ignored their absurd ideas. Could you clarify where this notion of a necessary war on Gaza comes from? Thank you for your posts - I learn something with almost every one you make.

Zionism is not simply a fringe, extremist religious movement. Zionism is the essence of Israel itself. And believe it or not, a large segment of, and perhaps the most effective Zionists in the early modern period (early 1900s and even after Israel was created) were in fact atheists. Yes, they used Jewish religious principles, but believe it or not, many Jews who disagreed with the Zionist project during those days were the more religious ones, who believed that Jews were not supposed to bring about a state of their own, on their own.

The Zionist project calls for a "Jewish state", meaning a state in which the majority of the population is Jewish. This was difficult in 1947, when 67% of the population in historic Palestine (which includes modern day Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza) was Palestinian Christians and Muslims. The 33% of which were Jewish included Palestinian Jews who Zionists claimed for their own national project. So the Zionists faced a quandary: how do we create a Jewish state with so many Palestinians here? This is why all the major Zionist leaders dealt with the issue of having to expel Palestinians, which culminated in their ethnic cleansing campaign during 1947-48 in which 750,000 Palestinians were expelled. The Zionists now had a majority population and declared their own state. Those Palestinians to this day live in refugee camps with their children and grandchildren in the hundreds of thousands, while others emigrated elsewhere. My grandmother for instance watched her father murdered in front of her by Zionist paramilitary organizations (terrorists) and then had to walk several miles on foot carrying barely anything to reach safety.

During the early 1950s, many of those Palestinians tried to return to Palestine, to their homes, and were shot on the spot by Israeli soldiers manning the borders. Thousands were killed this way.

This did not satisfy Israel. All the rhetoric of its Zionist leaders still spoke of the day they would conquer the West Bank (which they call "Judea and Samaria" and which holds much significance in Jewish history), the Gaza Strip and the Sinai peninsula (which was Egypt's). In 1967, Israel launched an offensive to take this land to fulfill their Zionist dream of controlling the land from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River (the West Bank is on the "west" of the Jordan River). All the rhetoric of Zionist leaders declares this. In 1967, a further 400,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes.

fuck

continued from above...

Finally, during the 1970s, religious Zionist movements (which you refer to in your post) sprung up and became more popular, because they took advantage of the religious significance the West Bank and East Jerusalem (which was also captured and occupied in 1967) hold to Jews, at the expense of Christians and Muslims of course. They began encouraging Jewish settlement in this area. Of course, even though they did not dominate the government, Zionists still strongly believe in settling this area and supported it. So-called "leftist" Zionists, like some who post on this very forum but who shall remain nameless , state that they oppose the settlements, even while forgiving the crimes of the nakba, and denying Palestinians the ability to return home. In my view, they only oppose the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza because they see it as a threat to their Zionist vision altogether, and simply want to hold onto the 78% of historic Palestine that they already control. So long as Israel maintains the settlements in the West Bank and continues mixing with the 2.5 million Palestinians who live there (though they make it hard to "mix" with them given checkpoints, a separation wall, separate highways, and so on), then the Zionist vision comes under threat since there are already nearly 2 million Palestinians living inside Israel proper (hence the "demographic threat" to the "Jewishness" of Israel that Zionists often speak of -- can you imagine this language? Palestinians pose a "threat" simply by existing!).

This same logic also explains the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. There is nearly 1.8 million Palestinians in that tiny strip of land, and there were only 8000 Jewish settlers there. It seemed hardly worth the trouble. Withdrawing from it solves the "demographic threat" all those Palestinians pose, thus they were able to rid themselves of them, while also implementing a brutal siege and simply turning that strip of land into an open-air prison.

Any form of resistance from the Palestinian side has to be met with a brutal harsh policy of violence from Israel -- this has been historically true. During the first intifada which began in 1988, which was overwhelmingly nonviolent, Israel implemented a "break the bones" policy, which literally meant soldiers would take nonviolent protesters aside, take stones and break their bones with them to prove that NO resistance to the implementation of the Zionist project will be tolerated. And people wonder why Palestinian factions employed armed resistance as a tactic against this brutal machine.

Occupations like this, that have a strong ideology behind them which drives them to continue their settler colonial project (which began even when settler colonies were no longer really the cool thing to do), cannot be dealt with in a rational way. This is why activists call for sanctioning and boycotting Israel. You cannot deal with a savage lunatic state that has been implementing its racist vision at the expense of another people for decades in a logical way. We on the outside can try to do it forcefully, just as we did with apartheid South Africa.

badbrains

Holyshit fuck! Nice info for all to read no doubt!

fuck

badbrains said:

Holyshit fuck!

LOL

badbrains

fuck said:

badbrains said:

Holyshit fuck!

LOL

B-)

benjs

badbrains said:

fuck said:

badbrains said:

Holyshit fuck!

LOL

B-)

I'm going to have to agree with my friend here... Holy shit fuck is just about the only thing I can think of. Really makes you realize how little is being asked when Palestinians ask for the freedom to walk across this land without checkpoints, to eat in their own homes and not have to beg for their food, and to be treated like fucking human beings.

badbrains

benjs said:

badbrains said:

fuck said:

badbrains said:

Holyshit fuck!

LOL

B-)

I'm going to have to agree with my friend here... Holy shit fuck is just about the only thing I can think of. Really makes you realize how little is being asked when Palestinians ask for the freedom to walk across this land without checkpoints, to eat in their own homes and not have to beg for their food, and to be treated like fucking human beings.

I think we can all agree that Ben needs to go Israel and run for office! And fuck can lead the Palestinians. Conflict OVER, pearl jam in tel aviv AND Gaza. Right on the water in Gaza too! I know I know, wishful thinking, but a man can dream........

fuck

benjs said:

badbrains said:

fuck said:

badbrains said:

Holyshit fuck!

LOL

B-)

I'm going to have to agree with my friend here... Holy shit fuck is just about the only thing I can think of. Really makes you realize how little is being asked when Palestinians ask for the freedom to walk across this land without checkpoints, to eat in their own homes and not have to beg for their food, and to be treated like fucking human beings.

To bring it back to this thread -- what do many Palestinians call for? Three basic things:
1) equal rights to Jews
2) an end to the occupation
3) the right for Palestinian refugees who were forced out by Zionists to return home

If there could be one, secular state with equal rights for all, with no discrimination whatsoever, that is all Palestinians call for. And yet, Zionists reject this and infringing upon the "Jewishness" of their state -- "Jewishness" which was formed artificially (by ethnic cleansing) I might add! And what do they say? "You want one state where Palestinians and Israelis have equal rights for all? You don't want Israel to exist!"

And you know what? Yeah, I don't want "Israel", the same "Israel" that demands that there are more Jews than Arabs to the point where they expel my family and thousands upon thousands of other families out of their homes to preserve this so-called "Jewishness", to exist. Just as I did not want Apartheid South Africa to exist. What I don't want to "exist" is this racist Zionist vision. But one state where everyone has equal rights -- yeah, I'd like to see that exist. But that's not what Israel is.

Walking the miles

Interesting that from your name, such an educated, informing, non-confrontational post was had. Thank you. Just goes to show, don't judge a book.....
"Do the Evolve(alution)"

mickeyrat

mickeyrat said:

OP. I have a simple question for you. Do Palestinians have a right to exist?

Hi Ogre, just to let you know, I am still waiting for a reply.

Respectfully,
American Taxpayer funding this bullshit.