The Zionists began moving into Israel at the turn of the 20th Century, a long time before WWII. Actually, for a while they were planning to settle in Uganda of all places.
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
have a look at The Balfour Declaration, its a decent starting point.
The Zionists began moving onto Israrl at the turn of the 20th Century, a long time before WWII. Actually, for a while they were planning to settle in Uganda of all places.
And an Island close to Argentina I believe was another location considered.
all must die,and only Greeks to stay alive.. we were here in the planet before you bitches!!!
and hot girls to stay alive,ill allow that!!
What if I know some Greeks and really like the Yogurt and Gyros?? Does this spare my family from your world domination? And who decides what women are hot?Is there a supreme Greek council that judges,like a miss universe contest? Women are beautiful in so many different ways,I say keep em all. This might be tough to pull off but Your music is going to get a little boring only listening to bands that dance on tables while eating.:) With all non Greeks gone.
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
have a look at The Balfour Declaration, its a decent starting point.
It is. What's interesting about the Balfour Declaration to me is that, as one of two documents which the Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel is based on, it clearly stipulates that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". From my perspective, not only is Israel in violation of international law, but also in violation of a core principle of equality upon which Israel's right to exist is based through actions such as a prolonged occupation/annexation, restriction of goods and service flow independent of why those restrictions are in place, and the existence of different tiers of citizenship. If Israel is willing to call the Palestinian regions part of Israel, they must also be willing to take the good and bad that comes with them, and deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, as the rest of Israel.
Edit: Alternatively, if Israel is unwilling to deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, they are morally, ethically, and politically obligated to liberate the Palestinian regions from Israeli rule. At that point, if Israel wants to fortify its own borders and restrict trade, they would be no different from Egypt at the moment: restricting trade citing security concerns (which is perfectly legal). This would put the onus on Hamas and Fatah to assuage global concerns about security related to terrorism (please note I am NOT saying whether Hamas produces terrorism, only saying that the world fears that they do), and force accountability in those cases solely in the hands of Hamas. Which, ironically, is exactly what Israel wants (apparently), no?
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
have a look at The Balfour Declaration, its a decent starting point.
It is. What's interesting about the Balfour Declaration to me is that, as one of two documents which the Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel is based on, it clearly stipulates that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". From my perspective, not only is Israel in violation of international law, but also in violation of a core principle of equality upon which Israel's right to exist is based through actions such as a prolonged occupation/annexation, restriction of goods and service flow independent of why those restrictions are in place, and the existence of different tiers of citizenship. If Israel is willing to call the Palestinian regions part of Israel, they must also be willing to take the good and bad that comes with them, and deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, as the rest of Israel.
Edit: Alternatively, if Israel is unwilling to deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, they are morally, ethically, and politically obligated to liberate the Palestinian regions from Israeli rule. At that point, if Israel wants to fortify its own borders and restrict trade, they would be no different from Egypt at the moment: restricting trade citing security concerns (which is perfectly legal). This would put the onus on Hamas and Fatah to assuage global concerns about security related to terrorism (please note I am NOT saying whether Hamas produces terrorism, only saying that the world fears that they do), and force accountability in those cases solely in the hands of Hamas. Which, ironically, is exactly what Israel wants (apparently), no?
all must die,and only Greeks to stay alive.. we were here in the planet before you bitches!!!
and hot girls to stay alive,ill allow that!!
What if I know some Greeks and really like the Yogurt and Gyros?? Does this spare my family from your world domination? And who decides what women are hot?Is there a supreme Greek council that judges,like a miss universe contest? Women are beautiful in so many different ways,I say keep em all. This might be tough to pull off but Your music is going to get a little boring only listening to bands that dance on tables while eating.:) With all non Greeks gone.
ill give u all women stays..and some taiwan - chinese cos they have some cheap gadgets at ebay..lol
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
biblical history.
But lets nto forget the fact that hebrews were one of many tribes that lived in the area at various times.,
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
have a look at The Balfour Declaration, its a decent starting point.
It is. What's interesting about the Balfour Declaration to me is that, as one of two documents which the Declaration of Establishment of the State of Israel is based on, it clearly stipulates that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". From my perspective, not only is Israel in violation of international law, but also in violation of a core principle of equality upon which Israel's right to exist is based through actions such as a prolonged occupation/annexation, restriction of goods and service flow independent of why those restrictions are in place, and the existence of different tiers of citizenship. If Israel is willing to call the Palestinian regions part of Israel, they must also be willing to take the good and bad that comes with them, and deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, as the rest of Israel.
Edit: Alternatively, if Israel is unwilling to deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, they are morally, ethically, and politically obligated to liberate the Palestinian regions from Israeli rule. At that point, if Israel wants to fortify its own borders and restrict trade, they would be no different from Egypt at the moment: restricting trade citing security concerns (which is perfectly legal). This would put the onus on Hamas and Fatah to assuage global concerns about security related to terrorism (please note I am NOT saying whether Hamas produces terrorism, only saying that the world fears that they do), and force accountability in those cases solely in the hands of Hamas. Which, ironically, is exactly what Israel wants (apparently), no?
Exactly. Apologists of Israel love to harp on about 'delegitimization'. But those people who refuse to accept a Palestinian state are actually delegitimizing Israel. The very legal foundation of the state of Israel is predicated on the Palestinians also possessing their own state on the remaining territory.
Why was that particular piece of land given to Israel? Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of this region of the world. Was Israel created as a fallout from WW2? If so, why did they not partition off part of Germany for Israel? or Italy? Seems to be a solvable problem. Or not?
Because no one anywhere in Europe wanted the Jews either, basically.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
That is terrible. Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
That is terrible. Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.
This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
That is terrible. Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.
This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
Whoa, hold on. I never said that the holocaust justified the creation of Israel or its existence now. I don't think that.
I already know all the history you just posted. But the reason any of that happened is because no one was willing to offer anything else up for the refugees of the holocaust, leading to the chain of events that took place in the creation of Israel, and that was mostly if not completely because of anti-semitism.
Yes, of course the hatred aimed at the Jews was known by the Zionists. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I said though.... maybe you're just reading too deeply into my simple and generalized comment?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
By the way PJ_Soul, What I would agree with is the notion that, whether the early Zionists used biblical claim as a reason to start the movement and justified it by showing the hatred towards Jews, or whether they used hatred towards Jews as a reason to start the movement and biblical claim as a justification for it - racism was certainly a component in either the creation or propagation of the notion of Zionism.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
When asked in the late 30s how many Jewish refugees he thought should be let into the country, Canada's Minister of Immigration responded, "None is too many."
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
That is terrible. Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
With all due respect, this isn't quite accurate. Israel was created because there was a consensus that a Jewish state would never be legitimized after the expiration of the British Mandate, which would nullify the Balfour Declaration which stated:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.
This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
Whoa, hold on. I never said that the holocaust justified the creation of Israel or its existence now. I don't think that.
I already know all the history you just posted. But the reason any of that happened is because no one was willing to offer anything else up for the refugees of the holocaust, leading to the chain of events that took place in the creation of Israel, and that was mostly if not completely because of anti-semitism.
Yes, of course the hatred aimed at the Jews was known by the Zionists. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I said though.... maybe you're just reading too deeply into my simple and generalized comment?
PJ_Soul - first off, my apologies regarding the holocaust justifying the creation of Israel, I must've misunderstood what you wrote.
Regarding the second paragraph there - could you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure which chain of events you're referring to. My simplistic causality chain goes: British write the Balfour Declaration, British administrate Mandatory Palestine, the British authority was set to cease to exist, hence, the Zionist movement's hand was forced and they took a 'now or never' stance and declared the establishment of the state. The refugees of the Holocaust would have been fuel for fire, but I don't think they were the guts of the movement.
In addition, regarding the second paragraph, can we please stop using the term anti-Semitism? A Semite is a person who speaks a Semitic language, like Hebrew or Arabic. The bastardization of the term can be traced back to late 19th century German philosophers who used it to try and chunk the population as 'Jews' and 'everyone else' where Jews were less than everyone else, and I see no reason for that to continue. It's why I'm also incredulous when I hear African-Americans and Chinese people refer to themselves, even comically, with their respective derogatory labels.
As for your last paragraph, again, could be my misunderstanding - I read what you had written as implying that Holocaust-era hatred was the turning point catalyst for Israel's inception.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there.
That's really interesting actually... I agree with much of what you said, and given the fact that early Zionists were largely secular, things could have gone two ways: either the Zionist movement would have been seen as an extreme and unnecessary one and simply faded away, or on the other hand, maybe they would have gotten stronger and gained momentum which would lead us back to the same place we're at now. If the former had happened, maybe Israel would have been the Jewish homeland, rather than a Jewish state. And you're right, if that were the case, post-1948 hatred within the region would have likely been the exception rather than the rule - namely because a secular government would have been put in place.
By the way, I just want to add - thank you for engaging me in such a logical and civil discussion. It's refreshing to have different viewpoints but still be able to share without offending.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What I'm saying is that if it weren't for the racism towards Jews before the events that lead to Israel being created, there would have been no need for Israel to be created. If the refugees had been welcomed by everyone everywhere, they would never have felt the need to migrate. There would have been no Jewish refugee crisis or any legs for the Zionist movement to stand on. The refugees would probably have settled around Europe again. So yes, I am implying that holocaust-era hatred was the catalyst for Israel's inception. You're dead on there.
That's really interesting actually... I agree with much of what you said, and given the fact that early Zionists were largely secular, things could have gone two ways: either the Zionist movement would have been seen as an extreme and unnecessary one and simply faded away, or on the other hand, maybe they would have gotten stronger and gained momentum which would lead us back to the same place we're at now. If the former had happened, maybe Israel would have been the Jewish homeland, rather than a Jewish state. And you're right, if that were the case, post-1948 hatred within the region would have likely been the exception rather than the rule - namely because a secular government would have been put in place.
By the way, I just want to add - thank you for engaging me in such a logical and civil discussion. It's refreshing to have different viewpoints but still be able to share without offending.
Right back atcha! This topic can easily be discussed without it turning to shit. All it takes is cooler heads. .... Did Byrnzie get sent to detention? :P
For the record, I NEVER let a disagreement on these boards affect how I feel about the people I'm disagreeing with even if they piss me off, lol (not that anyone here has). At the end of the day I consider everyone a friend..... almost everyone, hahaha.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Actually, for a while they were planning to settle in Uganda of all places.
And who decides what women are hot?Is there a supreme Greek council that judges,like a miss universe contest? Women are beautiful in so many different ways,I say keep em all.
This might be tough to pull off but Your music is going to get a little boring only listening to bands that dance on tables while eating.:) With all non Greeks gone.
Edit: Alternatively, if Israel is unwilling to deliver equal treatment to those within those regions, they are morally, ethically, and politically obligated to liberate the Palestinian regions from Israeli rule. At that point, if Israel wants to fortify its own borders and restrict trade, they would be no different from Egypt at the moment: restricting trade citing security concerns (which is perfectly legal). This would put the onus on Hamas and Fatah to assuage global concerns about security related to terrorism (please note I am NOT saying whether Hamas produces terrorism, only saying that the world fears that they do), and force accountability in those cases solely in the hands of Hamas. Which, ironically, is exactly what Israel wants (apparently), no?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
But lets nto forget the fact that hebrews were one of many tribes that lived in the area at various times.,
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That quote got a lot of legs when it became clear what happened in Europe over the next 7 or 8 years.
Once must keep in mind, all other things considered, Israel was created in the wake of the holocaust. Something had to be done for the survivors/refugees. It's too bad that governments took care of it so very poorly, and we are witnessing yet more of the results, and too bad that racism played such a large part in how they took care of it back then. If it hadn't been for all the racist motherfuckers running the show (and racists in general then and now), we wouldn't have this problem in Gaza.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
If Ben-Gurion had attempted to declare the establishment of the state of Israel merely two days later, this would not have been an action condoned (or even tolerated) by the British, nor the newly formed UN, and the right to declare its existence as a Jewish state (however questionable) wouldn't have been a question: it would have been inexcusable and not permitted.
This seems to be a common misconception when people allude to the Holocaust as a justification for the existence of Israel. Horrendous as it was, these were very much two separate events. In fact, contrary to what you wrote, I personally think that the hatred aimed at Jews at the time was very much known by those running the Zionist movement, and largely used as a deterrent for people to condemn the treatment of non-Jews within the region of Mandatory Palestine.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I already know all the history you just posted. But the reason any of that happened is because no one was willing to offer anything else up for the refugees of the holocaust, leading to the chain of events that took place in the creation of Israel, and that was mostly if not completely because of anti-semitism.
Yes, of course the hatred aimed at the Jews was known by the Zionists. Not sure how that is contrary to anything I said though.... maybe you're just reading too deeply into my simple and generalized comment?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Regarding the second paragraph there - could you clarify what you mean? I'm not sure which chain of events you're referring to. My simplistic causality chain goes: British write the Balfour Declaration, British administrate Mandatory Palestine, the British authority was set to cease to exist, hence, the Zionist movement's hand was forced and they took a 'now or never' stance and declared the establishment of the state. The refugees of the Holocaust would have been fuel for fire, but I don't think they were the guts of the movement.
In addition, regarding the second paragraph, can we please stop using the term anti-Semitism? A Semite is a person who speaks a Semitic language, like Hebrew or Arabic. The bastardization of the term can be traced back to late 19th century German philosophers who used it to try and chunk the population as 'Jews' and 'everyone else' where Jews were less than everyone else, and I see no reason for that to continue. It's why I'm also incredulous when I hear African-Americans and Chinese people refer to themselves, even comically, with their respective derogatory labels.
As for your last paragraph, again, could be my misunderstanding - I read what you had written as implying that Holocaust-era hatred was the turning point catalyst for Israel's inception.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
By the way, I just want to add - thank you for engaging me in such a logical and civil discussion. It's refreshing to have different viewpoints but still be able to share without offending.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
For the record, I NEVER let a disagreement on these boards affect how I feel about the people I'm disagreeing with even if they piss me off, lol (not that anyone here has). At the end of the day I consider everyone a friend..... almost everyone, hahaha.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1