I have been talking to friends and relatives about this situation. I ask them what they know, and many seem to know very little. It seems that many people here in the US used to simply side with Israel because they are an ally and thats what they were supposed to do. I think possibly that people are learning and changing their minds in recent months.
I have been talking to friends and relatives about this situation. I ask them what they know, and many seem to know very little. It seems that many people here in the US used to simply side with Israel because they are an ally and thats what they were supposed to do. I think possibly that people are learning and changing their minds in recent months.
That is what I am seeing as well. People are horrified by Israel's actions. There is a different feel this time than during past offensives.
Laughable...anyone with half a brain and common sense can debunk that article in 4 minutes. I read it as I'm waking up, i wasn't even done scratching my balls and i pick it apart, easily. My favorite....the images coming from Gaza of dead babies are mainly from Syria as if some internet sleuthing body is reviewing all the images coming from Gaza and determining which are authentic. Retweeting images in this guy's mind is journalism. That is right out of the playbook that was posted here earlier. Here is another... 1 Israeli dummy writes an article then another dummy writes another article and references the first dummy then a third dummy writes an article and references the first two dummies and so on and so on.
You may be able to debunk parts of that article. But not the whole thing. Surely you can admit that there are a few points there that make a lot of sense while others, not so much. There are both good and bad points there, and I hate to see the baby being thrown out with the bathwater.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
pjsoul what parts make alot of sense? what points are good? i wouldn't mind giving my side...
The parts that strike me the most and that I believe to be true are (and please try not to read between any lines here - there is nothing there. The article is pretty pro-Israeli, ironically, so many of these points are more about what Hamas is doing. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of similarly damning points against Israel, but only that this article doesn't properly address them IMO, which is why they're not listed. I do NOT favour the Israeli government over Hamas or vice-versa. I am not on the fence. I think that both sides are doing absolutely everything wrong): 1) Hamas's greatest weapon is dead Palestinian children. 2) Both sides are very much motivated by both racism and religion (tribal conflict). 3) The focused outrage from the Muslim world is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Jews and the focused outrage from Jews is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Muslim (this is just more of the race-driven concept). 4) Children on both sides are being raised to hate one another. 5) If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have done it already. 6) Hamas is doing a piss poor job of even trying to protect Palestinian lives and in fact seems to deliberately put them at risk at times.
PS - I find the idea the Hamas and others are using photos of dead kids from other conflicts and saying they're from Gaza is absolutely plausible. The propaganda coming from both sides of this conflict is totally outlandish and out of control. I would bet money that Hamas is doing that, and I know that the media from both sides and just civilians are doing the same, because I have personally sought out the truth behind some of this Israeli and Palestinian propaganda and it's pretty easy to prove that a lot of that stuff is bullshit or posted completely out of context. Not sure why you found that idea so ludicrous.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I highly doubt any politicians that can make peace in Gaza reads these forums. The pictures of dead children are not necessary here. At least just post the link with a warning on them so that people can choose to look at them.
pjsoul what parts make alot of sense? what points are good? i wouldn't mind giving my side...
The parts that strike me the most and that I believe to be true are (and please try not to read between any lines here - there is nothing there. The article is pretty pro-Israeli, ironically, so many of these points are more about what Hamas is doing. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of similarly damning points against Israel, but only that this article doesn't properly address them IMO, which is why they're not listed. I do NOT favour the Israeli government over Hamas or vice-versa. I am not on the fence. I think that both sides are doing absolutely everything wrong): 1) Hamas's greatest weapon is dead Palestinian children. 2) Both sides are very much motivated by both racism and religion (tribal conflict). 3) The focused outrage from the Muslim world is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Jews and the focused outrage from Jews is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Muslim (this is just more of the race-driven concept). 4) Children on both sides are being raised to hate one another. 5) If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have done it already. 6) Hamas is doing a piss poor job of even trying to protect Palestinian lives and in fact seems to deliberately put them at risk at times.
PS - I really can't say for sure whether or not Hamas is using photos from other conflicts as propaganda, but I would definitely not put it past them, and the chances that civilians and just anti-Israelis are doing the same is almost 100% likely. That doesn't discount what is actually happening, which is horrific, but this conflict is one that is huge on propaganda without shame on both sides, so the idea that Hamas or anyone might be using photos of dead children from other places seems like an incredibly likely suggestion.
Doesn't change the fact that over 300 children have been murdered and many more injured. Pictures or not they are still being murdered. I don't see how it really matters if the pictures we are seeing are of those particular dead children.
Now, if only every State would look at the totality of actions taken and see what truely has been allowed to happen.
AND its about time Britain started to make right the failings of the 40's and much earlier under colonial rule.
NOW, if we can only shift the mindset of the pussy politicians here. There needs to be a limit in the support we offer ANY nation. And look more to justice in itself. THAT to me speaks to stated values and may provide credible standing that we think we have now.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
I think she means weapon in a public relations war.
Pjsoul I just seen your edit.... Im not saying some pics are not authentic, I'm saying that the pics that the article refers to may come from retweets Twitter, my pics at least come from "journalist". Sometimes you can sift thru bs by just seeing who had the power and control (us and Israel). Fortunately at least for now they can,t completely control the internet, but they are working hard to do so. In any case for someone to claim "mainly from Syria" means they had to have seen virtually all pics from gaza. My question would be how many pics are you referring to when you say "mainly", 10 100 1,000 10,000. The writer seen all pics coming from gaza, outlandish, kinda like the rest of his garbage.
pjsoul what parts make alot of sense? what points are good? i wouldn't mind giving my side...
The parts that strike me the most and that I believe to be true are (and please try not to read between any lines here - there is nothing there. The article is pretty pro-Israeli, ironically, so many of these points are more about what Hamas is doing. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of similarly damning points against Israel, but only that this article doesn't properly address them IMO, which is why they're not listed. I do NOT favour the Israeli government over Hamas or vice-versa. I am not on the fence. I think that both sides are doing absolutely everything wrong): 1) Hamas's greatest weapon is dead Palestinian children. 2) Both sides are very much motivated by both racism and religion (tribal conflict). 3) The focused outrage from the Muslim world is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Jews and the focused outrage from Jews is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Muslim (this is just more of the race-driven concept). 4) Children on both sides are being raised to hate one another. 5) If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have done it already. 6) Hamas is doing a piss poor job of even trying to protect Palestinian lives and in fact seems to deliberately put them at risk at times.
PS - I really can't say for sure whether or not Hamas is using photos from other conflicts as propaganda, but I would definitely not put it past them, and the chances that civilians and just anti-Israelis are doing the same is almost 100% likely. That doesn't discount what is actually happening, which is horrific, but this conflict is one that is huge on propaganda without shame on both sides, so the idea that Hamas or anyone might be using photos of dead children from other places seems like an incredibly likely suggestion.
Doesn't change the fact that over 300 children have been murdered and many more injured. Pictures or not they are still being murdered. I don't see how it really matters if the pictures we are seeing are of those particular dead children.
No, of course it doesn't change or excuse the fact that 300 children have been slaughtered. But I wholeheartedly disagree that it doesn't matter if Hamas or anybody is using photos of massacres that have nothing to do with this conflict and claiming that they are photos from Gaza in order to create outrage, anti-semitism, or to convince people that the context is factual. The TRUTH always matters.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
I think she means weapon in a public relations war.
Exactly, thank you JimmyV.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
:-/ I don't doubt that these are real dead children. X_X Are they dead children in Gaza after an Israeli attack? Who knows. There are plenty of children being slaughtered by a few different aggressors in the world right now. The world is actually just focused on one of those conflicts, and that conflict happens to be where the least number of children are being killed compared to the others, like Syria, Nigeria, etc. But since the US and allies are more heavily involved, that's the one that's getting the most attention..... Not that it doesn't deserve all the attention. The other conflicts deserve more, but unless Western powers get as involved as they are with Israel, that attention won't be forthcoming. But i guess that's a separate topic.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Both sides suck. They both kill innocents for power and control. Fucking Palestinians sacrifice women and children. Shoot rockets indiscriminately at civilians. And Israelis will continue to build settlements. All while US and foreign corporations make a killing on weapons sakes and we the taxpayer foot the fucking bill. Both sides suck or human sheep behavior sucks. Oh well world overpopulated so good thing in end I guess.
Pjsoul I just seen your edit.... Im not saying some pics are not authentic, I'm saying that the pics that the article refers to may come from retweets Twitter, my pics at least come from "journalist". Sometimes you can sift thru bs by just seeing who had the power and control (us and Israel). Fortunately at least for now they can,t completely control the internet, but they are working hard to do so. In any case for someone to claim "mainly from Syria" means they had to have seen virtually all pics from gaza. My question would be how many pics are you referring to when you say "mainly", 10 100 1,000 10,000. The writer seen all pics coming from gaza, outlandish, kinda like the rest of his garbage.
I never said "mainly from Syria".
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
Obviously she meant #1 to be the war of public opinion. Every dead picture of a Palestinian child sways public opinion further to the Palestinians. SInce the rocket fire does little damage to Israel, there really is no reason to fire them other than to create a retaliation from Israel. Who gets retaliated on? Palestinian civilians. Hence, Hamas fires rockets to force Israel to respond and kill more innocent Palestinians.
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
Obviously she meant #1 to be the war of public opinion. Every dead picture of a Palestinian child sways public opinion further to the Palestinians. SInce the rocket fire does little damage to Israel, there really is no reason to fire them other than to create a retaliation from Israel. Who gets retaliated on? Palestinian civilians. Hence, Hamas fires rockets to force Israel to respond and kill more innocent Palestinians.
Yep.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway... 1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
I think she means weapon in a public relations war.
That's great. I said somewhere recently that I can't see how the US could possibly keep this up... with developments like this, I have some small amount of hope for some kind of turnaround for the US.... if not now, at least it might become a major election campaign issue. It's going to get harder and harder for new presidential candidates to run with a pro-Israeli platform at this rate
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
a few things... hamas #1 weapon is dead kids civilians in a public relations war? i need even further explanation on that? i did ask weapons against who? and what are their goals/objectives? still unanswered. any explanation is circular nonsense. they want the world to condemn israel? for what purpose (maybe to stop bombing civilians/children). they want the world to bomb israel? they want the guy in bumblefuck usa and bumblefuck england to feel sorry for Palestinians? for what, how does that obtain their alleged objective to kill all jews? please explain, i cannot wait. next... you dont believe the pictures are from palestine? does it change the fact that hundreds are dead? you want names ages weight and height? so okay say 3 of 10 pictures of dead kids arent from palestine...how why does this matter? next... im not really sure how to calculate the world coverage of dead civilians, althou i think is interesting that israel is pointing to isis and other groups to make it seen like killing only 2000 civilians is better than 180,000 in syria. what matter most to me is that the USofA is directly responsible for palestinian deaths than say syrian.im sorry that maybe because of dead kid pictures the world is finally taking notice but i understand it is a bit inconvenient. next... you mentioned the article, "mainly" was from the article which is what i thought we were discussing....where did i veer off?
Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
what parts make alot of sense? what points are good? i wouldn't mind giving my side...
1) Hamas's greatest weapon is dead Palestinian children.
2) Both sides are very much motivated by both racism and religion (tribal conflict).
3) The focused outrage from the Muslim world is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Jews and the focused outrage from Jews is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Muslim (this is just more of the race-driven concept).
4) Children on both sides are being raised to hate one another.
5) If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have done it already.
6) Hamas is doing a piss poor job of even trying to protect Palestinian lives and in fact seems to deliberately put them at risk at times.
PS - I find the idea the Hamas and others are using photos of dead kids from other conflicts and saying they're from Gaza is absolutely plausible. The propaganda coming from both sides of this conflict is totally outlandish and out of control. I would bet money that Hamas is doing that, and I know that the media from both sides and just civilians are doing the same, because I have personally sought out the truth behind some of this Israeli and Palestinian propaganda and it's pretty easy to prove that a lot of that stuff is bullshit or posted completely out of context. Not sure why you found that idea so ludicrous.
AND its about time Britain started to make right the failings of the 40's and much earlier under colonial rule.
NOW, if we can only shift the mindset of the pussy politicians here. There needs to be a limit in the support we offer ANY nation. And look more to justice in itself. THAT to me speaks to stated values and may provide credible standing that we think we have now.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
im not sure your 6 points are in the article but anyway...
1) i can't get past your #1..weapon against who? What goal? To kill innocent Palestinians? So your saying they are working with Israel? Wow i must admit i never thought of that...i guess there's no need to address the remaining 5
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I just seen your edit.... Im not saying some pics are not authentic, I'm saying that the pics that the article refers to may come from retweets Twitter, my pics at least come from "journalist".
Sometimes you can sift thru bs by just seeing who had the power and control (us and Israel). Fortunately at least for now they can,t completely control the internet, but they are working hard to do so.
In any case for someone to claim "mainly from Syria" means they had to have seen virtually all pics from gaza. My question would be how many pics are you referring to when you say "mainly", 10 100 1,000 10,000. The writer seen all pics coming from gaza, outlandish, kinda like the rest of his garbage.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Are they dead children in Gaza after an Israeli attack? Who knows. There are plenty of children being slaughtered by a few different aggressors in the world right now. The world is actually just focused on one of those conflicts, and that conflict happens to be where the least number of children are being killed compared to the others, like Syria, Nigeria, etc. But since the US and allies are more heavily involved, that's the one that's getting the most attention..... Not that it doesn't deserve all the attention. The other conflicts deserve more, but unless Western powers get as involved as they are with Israel, that attention won't be forthcoming. But i guess that's a separate topic.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
hamas #1 weapon is dead kids civilians in a public relations war? i need even further explanation on that? i did ask weapons against who? and what are their goals/objectives? still unanswered. any explanation is circular nonsense. they want the world to condemn israel? for what purpose (maybe to stop bombing civilians/children). they want the world to bomb israel? they want the guy in bumblefuck usa and bumblefuck england to feel sorry for Palestinians? for what, how does that obtain their alleged objective to kill all jews? please explain, i cannot wait.
next... you dont believe the pictures are from palestine? does it change the fact that hundreds are dead? you want names ages weight and height? so okay say 3 of 10 pictures of dead kids arent from palestine...how why does this matter?
next... im not really sure how to calculate the world coverage of dead civilians, althou i think is interesting that israel is pointing to isis and other groups to make it seen like killing only 2000 civilians is better than 180,000 in syria. what matter most to me is that the USofA is directly responsible for palestinian deaths than say syrian.im sorry that maybe because of dead kid pictures the world is finally taking notice but i understand it is a bit inconvenient.
next... you mentioned the article, "mainly" was from the article which is what i thought we were discussing....where did i veer off?