pjsoul what parts make alot of sense? what points are good? i wouldn't mind giving my side...
The parts that strike me the most and that I believe to be true are (and please try not to read between any lines here - there is nothing there. The article is pretty pro-Israeli, ironically, so many of these points are more about what Hamas is doing. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of similarly damning points against Israel, but only that this article doesn't properly address them IMO, which is why they're not listed. I do NOT favour the Israeli government over Hamas or vice-versa. I am not on the fence. I think that both sides are doing absolutely everything wrong): 1) Hamas's greatest weapon is dead Palestinian children. 2) Both sides are very much motivated by both racism and religion (tribal conflict). 3) The focused outrage from the Muslim world is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Jews and the focused outrage from Jews is fueled by the fact that the perpetrators (as they see it) are Muslim (this is just more of the race-driven concept). 4) Children on both sides are being raised to hate one another. 5) If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they would have done it already. 6) Hamas is doing a piss poor job of even trying to protect Palestinian lives and in fact seems to deliberately put them at risk at times.
PS - I find the idea the Hamas and others are using photos of dead kids from other conflicts and saying they're from Gaza is absolutely plausible. The propaganda coming from both sides of this conflict is totally outlandish and out of control. I would bet money that Hamas is doing that, and I know that the media from both sides and just civilians are doing the same, because I have personally sought out the truth behind some of this Israeli and Palestinian propaganda and it's pretty easy to prove that a lot of that stuff is bullshit or posted completely out of context. Not sure why you found that idea so ludicrous.
1) why are you speaking about Hamas as If they are outside of Palestinian society? If we are talking about PR should one say that any movement to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation's greatest "weapon" is dead Palestinians? What a horrific thing to say. As if the dead bodies are being "used" by Hamas - this PR tactic in and of itself seems to "use" these dead Palestinians in an attempt to delegitimize Hamas - I.e. It is guilty of the same shit it is accusing the other party of. 2) why not let Hamas speak for themselves? Did you see Khaled Meshaal's interview with Charlie rose? He said we are not against Jews for being Jews, we are opposed to occupation and are simply fighting that. Do you reject it for any particular reason? Please don't try to pull up so,e Hamas charter bullshit talking point - it's an anachronistic document written by ideologues decades ago with no bearing on the actual political actors. And for years people said why doesn't Hamas take that part back?! And when they did they said oh this is just a PR move. Shove it. The only racism is the idea of creating a Jewish state. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians, even Hamas does not call for an Islamic state. Even khaled Meshaal said we just want our rights, after that we can democratically decide how to govern ourselves.
3) wrong. There's just no evidence of this. In fact there is evidence of quite the opposite, where anti-Semitic rulers such as Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak worked with Israel for geopolitical purposes. This is not a religious issue - any real study of the region and it's history makes that clear.
5) I am at the airport waiting to board a flight so I will have to respond to this later. Suffice it to say that it's a weak argument.
6) any evidence to support this? It's funny how you hate Hamas so much that just because you "can see" the, doctoring photos or using fake photos or whatever, it's almost accepted as fact. Where's the evidence? Use some critical thinking skills for Christ's sake.
That's great. I said somewhere recently that I can't see how the US could possibly keep this up... with developments like this, I have some small amount of hope for some kind of turnaround for the US.... if not now, at least it might become a major election campaign issue. It's going to get harder and harder for new presidential candidates to run with a pro-Israeli platform at this rate
At any rate if your a teenager and live a long and prosperous life you will never see a us president without a pro Israel position.
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
it almost sounds like your saying Israel can protect itself but Palestinians cant because they dont have the means to stand up to israel, so they must take it and not make it worse. the 8th grader picks on, bullies and beats up the 4th grader, its the 4th graders fault that he got nearly pummeled to death because he tried to fight back, he should have just played dead, knowing he is scrawny, a foot smaller and 100lbs lighter and doesnt have a big brother. the beating wouldnt have been so bad, he prob wouldnt have ended up in a coma with broken cheekbones and fractured ribs if he just took it.
what do you suggest they do to stop the oppression? what would you do say if you were thrown out of your house and your town was bulldozed? the place you grew up and then raised kids of your own? remember now from example above you have no big brothers, parents or neighbors that care, no principal, no guns or knives, no system of justice, only yourself and a twig on the ground?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
what do you suggest they do that they havent already tried to do to stop the oppression?
Stopping the oppression is a secondary goal right now. Stopping the slaughter of innocent Palestinians should be the primary goal. The rocket fire is contributing to the continued assault. This is where Hamas is not helping the people of Gaza.
And before anyone jumps on me and pretends I said ending the occupation isn't important or otherwise tries to twist my words, know that I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
Symbolic rocket attacks certainly have helped: all of the sudden, people on the sidelines of this conflict are paying attention. Allegiances for allegiance's sake are being questioned.
That being said, as I've said before, a government's primary objective is to protect its citizens. Now that the world is paying attention, this would be the best time for Hamas to do a radical shift in tactics and lay down its arms. Israel will be 100% out of justifiable cause for the inhibitions they place on Palestinian life at that point.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
so basically every time israel needs an excuse to bomb they provoke hamas to do nothing. so israel pushes and pushes and pushes harder and harder, still no response....push more even harder, push further and further until what....hamas still no response so its not escalated to 2000 civilian deaths.... until what?
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
Symbolic rocket attacks certainly have helped: all of the sudden, people on the sidelines of this conflict are paying attention. Allegiances for allegiance's sake are being questioned.
That being said, as I've said before, a government's primary objective is to protect its citizens. Now that the world is paying attention, this would be the best time for Hamas to do a radical shift in tactics and lay down its arms. Israel will be 100% out of justifiable cause for the inhibitions they place on Palestinian life at that point.
I don't agree that rocket attacks are the reason people are paying attention or why allegiances are being questioned. Israel's continued targeting of civilians is responsible for that. I guess we could say that the rocket attacks are directly causing the Israeli reaction but I don't think many of us (myself included) believes that.
I am in total agreement with your second paragraph.
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
Symbolic rocket attacks certainly have helped: all of the sudden, people on the sidelines of this conflict are paying attention. Allegiances for allegiance's sake are being questioned.
That being said, as I've said before, a government's primary objective is to protect its citizens. Now that the world is paying attention, this would be the best time for Hamas to do a radical shift in tactics and lay down its arms. Israel will be 100% out of justifiable cause for the inhibitions they place on Palestinian life at that point.
I don't agree that rocket attacks are the reason people are paying attention or why allegiances are being questioned. Israel's continued targeting of civilians is responsible for that. I guess we could say that the rocket attacks are directly causing the Israeli reaction but I don't think many of us (myself included) believes that.
I am in total agreement with your second paragraph.
Rocket attacks aren't the reason, but if you look at the causality of all of this: rocket attacks from Gaza are used as justification for rocket attacks from Israel. Rocket attacks from Israel, unlike most rocket attacks from Gaza, lead to civilian casualties. Civilian casualties lead to global outcry.
Unlike the causality of the absence of rocket attacks: no rocket attacks from Gaza mean no justification for Israeli retaliation. No justification means no Israeli retaliation. No Israeli retaliation means the world continues to ignore the existence of a people with inherently less rights and lesser quality of life as those within the same political boundaries, and the injustices live on, and no change is brought upon.
So, you're Hamas: do you lob rockets which produce single-digit casualties, or do you not?
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
so basically every time israel needs an excuse to bomb they provoke hamas to do nothing. so israel pushes and pushes and pushes harder and harder, still no response....push more even harder, push further and further until what....hamas still no response so its not escalated to 2000 civilian deaths.... until what?
Again, my point is that these rocket attacks have not saved a single Palestinian life. Not one. Meanwhile, the death toll creeps towards 2000 and Israel continues to be provided with fire to return. I've said this throughout: they need a new tactic.
It isn't a question of equal blame. You are right - how can it be when you consider those numbers? However, that is not to say there is not some blame on both sides. Israel's tactics have been disgustingly heavy handed, and they could instantly call this entire offensive off. On the other side, Hamas knows Israel will answer every ineffective rocket attack tenfold, and they still continue to fire rockets that have no impact other than to provide their enemy with political cover to rain fire down upon the populace of Gaza.
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
You make it sound like this is a random spat that erupted out of a vacuum. Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
Are "symbolic" rocket attacks helping to prevent anything you just described? Are they changing the status quo in any way? Have they saved a single Palestinian life? I don't see that they have. Meanwhile, they give the Israelis cover to continue their onslaught and provide "news" outlets with fodder to paint the Palestinians as the aggressors. I remain unconvinced that these rockets are helping the Palestinian cause in Gaza in any way.
Symbolic rocket attacks certainly have helped: all of the sudden, people on the sidelines of this conflict are paying attention. Allegiances for allegiance's sake are being questioned.
That being said, as I've said before, a government's primary objective is to protect its citizens. Now that the world is paying attention, this would be the best time for Hamas to do a radical shift in tactics and lay down its arms. Israel will be 100% out of justifiable cause for the inhibitions they place on Palestinian life at that point.
I don't agree that rocket attacks are the reason people are paying attention or why allegiances are being questioned. Israel's continued targeting of civilians is responsible for that. I guess we could say that the rocket attacks are directly causing the Israeli reaction but I don't think many of us (myself included) believes that.
I am in total agreement with your second paragraph.
Rocket attacks aren't the reason, but if you look at the causality of all of this: rocket attacks from Gaza are used as justification for rocket attacks from Israel. Rocket attacks from Israel, unlike most rocket attacks from Gaza, lead to civilian casualties. Civilian casualties lead to global outcry.
Unlike the causality of the absence of rocket attacks: no rocket attacks from Gaza mean no justification for Israeli retaliation. No justification means no Israeli retaliation. No Israeli retaliation means the world continues to ignore the existence of a people with inherently less rights and lesser quality of life as those within the same political boundaries, and the injustices live on, and no change is brought upon.
So, you're Hamas: do you lob rockets which produce single-digit casualties, or do you not?
I'm not sure how many more civilians have to die in the quest for global outcry. I understand your point, but I don't see what the endgame here is for Hamas.
Thankfully, I am not Hamas, but to answer your question, I do think the time to stop lobbing rockets has come.
Sympathy for the people of Gaza is understandable.Calling out Israeli tactics as heavy handed and harsh also fair and understandable.Questioning the money given to foreign countries who support war,also justified and worthy of discussion. Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing. These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda. I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom. Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Sympathy for the people of Gaza is understandable.Calling out Israeli tactics as heavy handed and harsh also fair and understandable.Questioning the money given to foreign countries who support war,also justified and worthy of discussion. Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing. These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda. I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom. Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Hey man, u know, this statement, although I agree with mostly, the part I'm not understanding is that do you think these Palestinian people have no feelings or hearts? Like what people would want their own people to be slaughtered? These people are humans just like u and me. They cry, they bleed, the laugh and they shit just like you and I. I find it disturbing that some people believe that Palestinians aren't humans, dnt feel dnt love dnt respect. Basically like animals. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. And RR, I'm not directing this at you, I'm saying it as to all the people who think Hamas uses humans shields, Hamas loads bombs on children to blow up. Shit like that. It just makes it look like these people aren't humans and only barbaric animals. They're not, they're just humans trying to taste something they haven't tasted for over 60+ years. Freedom, something EVERYONE alive should have. Something so precious but yet so far away.
Edit-besides freedom, I'm sure they want dignity, respect, and compassion, something we all deserve.
So let's just say for argument sake that there was no Hamas at all ... 1- would Israel not have taken more land that was not theirs for the taking .... 2- would Palestinians have every freedom that all Israeli's enjoy ...
As far as iv'e learned Hamas was Born from the injustices that were happening against the Palestinian population by the Israeli gov ....
BB,Agreed. I think of course the Palestinians have feelings and hearts.And right now I think they are being treated miserably by both sides.I think they are caught in the middle.I just know that following Hamas Isnt going to make the long term better. One can argue that because of Hamas the world now is listening to the plight these innocent people are going thru,I get that.But now what? A true two state answer has to come from more moderate voices who can really have the populations best interest in mind.I feel Hamas has other agenda items and this just happens to be one they feel they can exploit to gain footing and members.I may be looking at this thru American eyes,but it just feels that way,and just like Byrnzie is always bringing up the last 67 years of occupation,I can't get past the history of terror,that this organization and those who fund and support it have perpetrated.
BB,Agreed. I think of course the Palestinians have feelings and hearts.And right now I think they are being treated miserably by both sides.I think they are caught in the middle.I just know that following Hamas Isnt going to make the long term better. One can argue that because of Hamas the world now is listening to the plight these innocent people are going thru,I get that.But now what? A true two state answer has to come from more moderate voices who can really have the populations best interest in mind.I feel Hamas has other agenda items and this just happens to be one they feel they can exploit to gain footing and members.I may be looking at this thru American eyes,but it just feels that way,and just like Byrnzie is always bringing up the last 67 years of occupation,I can't get past the history of terror,that this organization and those who fund and support it have perpetrated.
I ask again , would Israel have taken land that was not theirs if there was no Hamas in the picture , would all Palestinians enjoy all their freedom that every Israeli enjoys ....
Sympathy for the people of Gaza is understandable.Calling out Israeli tactics as heavy handed and harsh also fair and understandable.Questioning the money given to foreign countries who support war,also justified and worthy of discussion. Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing. These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda. I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom. Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Hey man, u know, this statement, although I agree with mostly, the part I'm not understanding is that do you think these Palestinian people have no feelings or hearts? Like what people would want their own people to be slaughtered? These people are humans just like u and me. They cry, they bleed, the laugh and they shit just like you and I. I find it disturbing that some people believe that Palestinians aren't humans, dnt feel dnt love dnt respect. Basically like animals. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. And RR, I'm not directing this at you, I'm saying it as to all the people who think Hamas uses humans shields, Hamas loads bombs on children to blow up. Shit like that. It just makes it look like these people aren't humans and only barbaric animals. They're not, they're just humans trying to taste something they haven't tasted for over 60+ years. Freedom, something EVERYONE alive should have. Something so precious but yet so far away.
Edit-besides freedom, I'm sure they want dignity, respect, and compassion, something we all deserve.
badbrains,
I think this is another problem which propaganda has contributed to greatly. I see a great deal of neglected responsibility from Hamas as well as the Israeli government. Armed with the knowledge that the world largely equates Hamas with Palestinians with Arabs with Islam, and that the world largely equates the Israeli government with the Israeli People with Zionists with Jews - you would think both parties would take strong humanistic stances: that is a tremendous weight to bear. Whether Hamas' actions are inhumane are up for contention and I would not be naive enough to assume complete innocence from Hamas. As far as the Israeli government's involvement - just the past few weeks are as far back as you need to look to gather my opinion on that.
For the record, my friend, I would seriously hope that those of us on here are smart enough to see through the riff-raff and comprehend that even the most vile of actions from one or few people (especially when granted a position of power) should not sway one's opinion of a larger group it represents.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
How many innocents have Hamas killed since their rise to prominence? Can't find or get an answer...terrorist usually take credit for their work.
Maybe 3? At the most. They dnt have a huge innocent death till because they're NOT attacking civilians. Can Israel say the same? Doubt it. And before u say rocket attacks, who the fuck knows who's launching what rockets into Israel. Didn't someone post that Israel just bought the most amount of rockets from the us this year alone? And before you also tell me they wouldn't do that to themselves. My response will be look back at the 3 Israeli teens killed and when the world was notified that they were dead. How long after Israel knew? 2 weeks? And with iron dome being so effective why not launch missiles at themselves if they know they won't make it past the dome? Not hard to imagine.
Sympathy for the people of Gaza is understandable.Calling out Israeli tactics as heavy handed and harsh also fair and understandable.Questioning the money given to foreign countries who support war,also justified and worthy of discussion. Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing. These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda. I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom. Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Hey man, u know, this statement, although I agree with mostly, the part I'm not understanding is that do you think these Palestinian people have no feelings or hearts? Like what people would want their own people to be slaughtered? These people are humans just like u and me. They cry, they bleed, the laugh and they shit just like you and I. I find it disturbing that some people believe that Palestinians aren't humans, dnt feel dnt love dnt respect. Basically like animals. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. And RR, I'm not directing this at you, I'm saying it as to all the people who think Hamas uses humans shields, Hamas loads bombs on children to blow up. Shit like that. It just makes it look like these people aren't humans and only barbaric animals. They're not, they're just humans trying to taste something they haven't tasted for over 60+ years. Freedom, something EVERYONE alive should have. Something so precious but yet so far away.
Edit-besides freedom, I'm sure they want dignity, respect, and compassion, something we all deserve.
badbrains,
I think this is another problem which propaganda has contributed to greatly. I see a great deal of neglected responsibility from Hamas as well as the Israeli government. Armed with the knowledge that the world largely equates Hamas with Palestinians with Arabs with Islam, and that the world largely equates the Israeli government with the Israeli People with Zionists with Jews - you would think both parties would take strong humanistic stances: that is a tremendous weight to bear. Whether Hamas' actions are inhumane are up for contention and I would not be naive enough to assume complete innocence from Hamas. As far as the Israeli government's involvement - just the past few weeks are as far back as you need to look to gather my opinion on that.
For the record, my friend, I would seriously hope that those of us on here are smart enough to see through the riff-raff and comprehend that even the most vile of actions from one or few people (especially when granted a position of power) should not sway one's opinion of a larger group it represents.
Ben, yes my friend, I do also hope that people can use criticle thinking and educate themselves. Make their own conclusions.
Sympathy for the people of Gaza is understandable.Calling out Israeli tactics as heavy handed and harsh also fair and understandable.Questioning the money given to foreign countries who support war,also justified and worthy of discussion. Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing. These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda. I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom. Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Hey man, u know, this statement, although I agree with mostly, the part I'm not understanding is that do you think these Palestinian people have no feelings or hearts? Like what people would want their own people to be slaughtered? These people are humans just like u and me. They cry, they bleed, the laugh and they shit just like you and I. I find it disturbing that some people believe that Palestinians aren't humans, dnt feel dnt love dnt respect. Basically like animals. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. And RR, I'm not directing this at you, I'm saying it as to all the people who think Hamas uses humans shields, Hamas loads bombs on children to blow up. Shit like that. It just makes it look like these people aren't humans and only barbaric animals. They're not, they're just humans trying to taste something they haven't tasted for over 60+ years. Freedom, something EVERYONE alive should have. Something so precious but yet so far away.
Edit-besides freedom, I'm sure they want dignity, respect, and compassion, something we all deserve.
badbrains,
I think this is another problem which propaganda has contributed to greatly. I see a great deal of neglected responsibility from Hamas as well as the Israeli government. Armed with the knowledge that the world largely equates Hamas with Palestinians with Arabs with Islam, and that the world largely equates the Israeli government with the Israeli People with Zionists with Jews - you would think both parties would take strong humanistic stances: that is a tremendous weight to bear. Whether Hamas' actions are inhumane are up for contention and I would not be naive enough to assume complete innocence from Hamas. As far as the Israeli government's involvement - just the past few weeks are as far back as you need to look to gather my opinion on that.
For the record, my friend, I would seriously hope that those of us on here are smart enough to see through the riff-raff and comprehend that even the most vile of actions from one or few people (especially when granted a position of power) should not sway one's opinion of a larger group it represents.
Evil has no religious or ethnic boundaries.In fact it hides behind exactly those things
Comments
2) why not let Hamas speak for themselves? Did you see Khaled Meshaal's interview with Charlie rose? He said we are not against Jews for being Jews, we are opposed to occupation and are simply fighting that. Do you reject it for any particular reason? Please don't try to pull up so,e Hamas charter bullshit talking point - it's an anachronistic document written by ideologues decades ago with no bearing on the actual political actors. And for years people said why doesn't Hamas take that part back?! And when they did they said oh this is just a PR move. Shove it. The only racism is the idea of creating a Jewish state. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians, even Hamas does not call for an Islamic state. Even khaled Meshaal said we just want our rights, after that we can democratically decide how to govern ourselves.
3) wrong. There's just no evidence of this. In fact there is evidence of quite the opposite, where anti-Semitic rulers such as Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak worked with Israel for geopolitical purposes. This is not a religious issue - any real study of the region and it's history makes that clear.
5) I am at the airport waiting to board a flight so I will have to respond to this later. Suffice it to say that it's a weak argument.
6) any evidence to support this? It's funny how you hate Hamas so much that just because you "can see" the, doctoring photos or using fake photos or whatever, it's almost accepted as fact. Where's the evidence? Use some critical thinking skills for Christ's sake.
Gaza : 1867 killed, 429 children, 243 are women, 70 elderly and 9567 injured
10080 buildings destroyed
Certainly this is not a new thought at this point but, yes, I do see blame on both sides. We shouldn't let that get lost in an argument over equal blame. Innocent people are dying and both sides should stop.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Have you ever considered what the Palestinians under occupation have to live with every day of their lives? Check-points, curfews, military incursions, missile attacks, shootings by snipers, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, the destruction of their homes and their olive groves, attacks by gangs of armed settlers, poverty, restrictions on their water and electricity...
This shit has been going on for 47 years.
And in June the Israeli public, whipped up into a frenzy of racial hatred by their government leaders, who lied to them and pretended that Hamas were responsible for the kidnapping and murder of three teens, went on a rampage through the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beating Palestinians on sight and looting their homes and businesses. A 15 year old Palestinian boy was then abducted from the street, had gasoline poured down his throat and was burned alive and his body dumped in the bushes.
The Israeli army also carried out a series of missile strikes against Gaza, and Hamas retaliated with its rockets.
Israel then launched a full bombardment of Gaza, and has so far managed to murder over 1,700 of its inhabitants - 90% of those killed being civilians.
The rocket attacks are largely symbolic. But what do you expect them to do? Just lie down and die?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
it almost sounds like your saying Israel can protect itself but Palestinians cant because they dont have the means to stand up to israel, so they must take it and not make it worse.
the 8th grader picks on, bullies and beats up the 4th grader, its the 4th graders fault that he got nearly pummeled to death because he tried to fight back, he should have just played dead, knowing he is scrawny, a foot smaller and 100lbs lighter and doesnt have a big brother. the beating wouldnt have been so bad, he prob wouldnt have ended up in a coma with broken cheekbones and fractured ribs if he just took it.
what do you suggest they do to stop the oppression?
what would you do say if you were thrown out of your house and your town was bulldozed? the place you grew up and then raised kids of your own?
remember now from example above you have no big brothers, parents or neighbors that care, no principal, no guns or knives, no system of justice, only yourself and a twig on the ground?
And before anyone jumps on me and pretends I said ending the occupation isn't important or otherwise tries to twist my words, know that I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
That being said, as I've said before, a government's primary objective is to protect its citizens. Now that the world is paying attention, this would be the best time for Hamas to do a radical shift in tactics and lay down its arms. Israel will be 100% out of justifiable cause for the inhibitions they place on Palestinian life at that point.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
so israel pushes and pushes and pushes harder and harder, still no response....push more even harder, push further and further until what....hamas still no response so its not escalated to 2000 civilian deaths.... until what?
I am in total agreement with your second paragraph.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Unlike the causality of the absence of rocket attacks: no rocket attacks from Gaza mean no justification for Israeli retaliation. No justification means no Israeli retaliation. No Israeli retaliation means the world continues to ignore the existence of a people with inherently less rights and lesser quality of life as those within the same political boundaries, and the injustices live on, and no change is brought upon.
So, you're Hamas: do you lob rockets which produce single-digit casualties, or do you not?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Thankfully, I am not Hamas, but to answer your question, I do think the time to stop lobbing rockets has come.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Buying this BULLSHIT that Hamas is just a cute little group of freedom fighters who only want palestininian freedom is Moronic.I can't believe the terrorist Propoganda some of you are willing to so easily go along with.You don't have to choose sides,or approve of any actions here,but to forget about a group that straps bombs to kids and blows up innocent people in markets and busses for fun is mind numbing.
These are not poor farmers fighting with pitchforks,they are a group funded by terror orginazations and countries who vow to eliminate races of people and want nothing more then to spread their secular agenda.
I want the Palestinian people to taste real freedom,and I hope they do soon.But following Hamas is only going to get more of them killed and delay real freedom.
Hamas loves a high body count and has been able to use it to their advantage in social media and the pr war.True Palestinian concern from them,I don't think so.
Edit-besides freedom, I'm sure they want dignity, respect, and compassion, something we all deserve.
1- would Israel not have taken more land that was not theirs for the taking ....
2- would Palestinians have every freedom that all Israeli's enjoy ...
As far as iv'e learned Hamas was Born from the injustices that were happening against the Palestinian population by the Israeli gov ....
One can argue that because of Hamas the world now is listening to the plight these innocent people are going thru,I get that.But now what? A true two state answer has to come from more moderate voices who can really have the populations best interest in mind.I feel Hamas has other agenda items and this just happens to be one they feel they can exploit to gain footing and members.I may be looking at this thru American eyes,but it just feels that way,and just like Byrnzie is always bringing up the last 67 years of occupation,I can't get past the history of terror,that this organization and those who fund and support it have perpetrated.
Can't find or get an answer...terrorist usually take credit for their work.
I think this is another problem which propaganda has contributed to greatly. I see a great deal of neglected responsibility from Hamas as well as the Israeli government. Armed with the knowledge that the world largely equates Hamas with Palestinians with Arabs with Islam, and that the world largely equates the Israeli government with the Israeli People with Zionists with Jews - you would think both parties would take strong humanistic stances: that is a tremendous weight to bear. Whether Hamas' actions are inhumane are up for contention and I would not be naive enough to assume complete innocence from Hamas. As far as the Israeli government's involvement - just the past few weeks are as far back as you need to look to gather my opinion on that.
For the record, my friend, I would seriously hope that those of us on here are smart enough to see through the riff-raff and comprehend that even the most vile of actions from one or few people (especially when granted a position of power) should not sway one's opinion of a larger group it represents.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1