Obviously the Israelis and the Palestinians need to do something.
Once again, you pretend that this is a case of two sides on an equal footing, with equal responsibility for the conflict, thereby completely igmoring reality.
International law is perfectly clear on what needs to be done. And a peaceful settlement under the terms of international law has already been agreed upon by the whole World, including the Palestinians. But it's rejected by Israel and the U., and the U.S continues vetoing a peaceful settlement at the U.N every year.
That's the problem.
No, I don't think they are on equal footing at all and never said they were. But i don't support Hamas anymore than I do the Israeli government.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
No thanks. I'd rather keep doing everything I can to raise awareness of this issue and counter the 101 lies put forth by Israel's apologists to try and excuse and justify their oppression and terrorizing of their neighbors.
.In regards to the Middle east conflict i believe some major catastrophic event would have to happen or a miracle for the two sides to come to an agreement and to agree to live side by side .....
The Palestinians have already agreed to the two state solution, along with the whole World, but the two state settlement is rejected by Israel, and consequently vetoed by the U.S at the U.N. For international law to be imposed on Israel wouldn't require a miracle. It would simply require enough public pressure to force the U.S government to quit acting as Israel's rubber stamp at the U.N Security Council.
With the understanding that the heart usually speaks first, I wish that anger (and in some cases, hate at the worst and heat of the moment least) would take a back-seat to honest attempts at meetings of the mind.
Insults, snarkiness and scolding dull much I'd otherwise consider.
If it can't be done in this little microcosm, how can it be expected to occur in the larger one?
That is so completely, perfectly, fuckingly absolutely totally true and well said. I truly hope this is what we choose to do here.
Cheers, my friend.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I feel that your angry, arrogant approach solves nothing and just keeps you angry.
Yeah, it's strange that witnessing men, women, children and babies slaughtered by racists should make me angry.
There must be something wrong with me.
So be angry then. Others are too, you know. Maybe not for your specific reasons - that can't be so difficult to get.
For whatever it's worth...maybe ease up on taking that anger out on the people you're discussing this with right here.
The only people I get angry with are those who try and excuse and justify the massacre, or with people who try and label me as a racist - PJ Soul, BS44325
If someone wants to imply that I'm a racist, then they shouldn't act surprised when I come straight back at them.
And on that subject, what do you mean by my specific reasons? Is that another attempt to label me a racist?
You throw the fucking racism card at me and then criticize me for getting angry? Really?
Let's all pretend that both sides just need to sit down and talk about it - never mind that they've been 'talking about it' for 47 years - and meanwhile the occupation can continue and the Palestinians 'can continue living like dogs', as Israeli defence Minister Moshe Dayan said. Let's pretend that it's a level playing field, and that both sides are as bad as each other, and that therefore there's nothing we can do about it. We'd be better off just sitting around listening to 'Imagine' instead. Let's pretend that $4Billion our tax dollars aren't being used to drop bombs on babies, and that talking about peace, love, and understanding is the way to go.
And anyone who raises his voice above a certain level of decibels should be accused of being a racist Jew Hater - I mean, why else would anybody be so vocal and passionately opposed to mass murder and ethnic cleansing?
Post edited by Byrnzie on
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I feel that your angry, arrogant approach solves nothing and just keeps you angry.
Yeah, it's strange that witnessing men, women, children and babies slaughtered by racists should make me angry.
There must be something wrong with me.
So be angry then. Others are too, you know. Maybe not for your specific reasons - that can't be so difficult to get.
For whatever it's worth...maybe ease up on taking that anger out on the people you're discussing this with right here.
The only people I get angry with are those who try and excuse and justify the massacre, or with people who try and label me as a racist - PJ Soul, BS44325
If someone wants to imply that I'm a racist, then they shouldn't act surprised when I come straight back at them.
And on that subject, what do you mean by my specific reasons? Is that another attempt to label me a racist?
You throw the fucking racism card at me and then criticize me for getting angry? Really?
Good lord Byrnzie, calm down already here and in pm's.
"My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century." - Noam Chomsky
After years of reading the AMT I have seen no evidence of Byrnzie being an anti-Semite. It's a deflection from the real issues at hand. Can't argue the message so attack the character.
When i first saw this thread was made i thought it would not last past 10 pages before it was locked even though it was started by a moderator. I do agree with Ed, all war does not make sense in any way, we should always do everything we can to avoid it, and if most of us normal people were running things there would be so much less of it. I think it is pretty cool that this thread has not been locked, hard topics to discuss dispassionately indeed. That said, I don't see any problem with what Byrnzie and others have posted. Having a problem with mothers and children being targeted in war time situation does not make you anti anything, it makes you a humanist.
After years of reading the AMT I have seen no evidence of Byrnzie being an anti-Semite. It's a deflection from the real issues at hand. Can't argue the message so attack the character.
I only reacted to him saying that only an idiot doesn't think that anti-semitism is understandable. That kind of comment leaves an impression.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
After years of reading the AMT I have seen no evidence of Byrnzie being an anti-Semite. It's a deflection from the real issues at hand. Can't argue the message so attack the character.
I only reacted to him saying that only an idiot doesn't think that anti-semitism is understandable. That kind of comment leaves an impression.
Is it not understandable at this present time? Really? Are you really going to pretend to be shocked that the Israeli's carrying out more mass murder of Palestinians would give rise to some incidents of racism against Jews in many corners of the World? I didn't say that I support, or condone it. I loathe racism, in whatever form it takes. But you're not being very honest if you think that some people aren't going to feel racism towards Jews whilst they're seeing the smashed bodies of Palestinian babies on their t.v's and computer monitors.
Not that this is really worth taking seriously. There's a far bigger outrage being committed right now.
8 children killed as missiles hit Gaza playground, hospital Published time: July 28, 2014
Hopes for an imminent end to the Gaza conflict are fading, with renewed violence bringing new casualties. Israel and Hamas blame each other after eight children were killed and 46 others injured by a missile that landed in a Gaza refugee camp playground.
...A massive explosion rocked a public garden in northern Gaza, killing eight children and two adults and injuring 46 others, according to Palestinian medics. A health official at nearby Shifa Hospital said the children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the beachfront Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, AP reported.
“The children were playing and were happy, enjoying Eid, and they got hit. Some lost their heads, others their legs and hands,” eyewitness Nidal Aljerbi said.
The refugee camp park was attacked just minutes after Shifa Hospital's outpatient clinic was hit by another strike, causing more casualties.
...The World Health Organization said in a statement that it was “appalled by the continuing trend for health-care facilities, staff and vehicles to come under direct fire in Gaza” since the escalation of violence on July 8."
l'm probably very naive,and i so promised myself i wasn't going to get involved, but...
@Byrnzie: isn't the whole conflict in that part of the world proof that solving the issue with violence doesn't work?! has it worked so far? talking doesn't appear to help much either, true but how is it going to help if each action gets a retribution? isn't the terror just going to carry on, an on and on.... until there is nobody left in either Israel or Palestine {maybe that's the only answer...}... is more terror really the only answer?
to me as an outsider, all i can see is two nations with massive ego's, stubbornly not wanting to make the first move towards a solution...
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,001
Palestine solidarity goes mainstream in UK as 100,000 march in London on 26 July.
Plus Byrnzie makes 100,001 (and counting).
Anger over this issue is totally understandable, Byrnzie. These are burning hot issues. Like you, I get mad as hell about some of the shit in this world and if I channel that anger into useful action that's fine but anger can be merely corrosive and often more harmful than fruitful- and I call myself out on that one, I'm not casting stones.
So can we get down to the business of thinking of something useful to do rather that blast each other? (and again, I call myself on that, for sure.)
Let's not be each others enemies here.
And none of that hippie shit either! ;-)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
l'm probably very naive,and i so promised myself i wasn't going to get involved, but...
@Byrnzie: isn't the whole conflict in that part of the world proof that solving the issue with violence doesn't work?! has it worked so far? talking doesn't appear to help much either, true but how is it going to help if each action gets a retribution? isn't the terror just going to carry on, an on and on.... until there is nobody left in either Israel or Palestine {maybe that's the only answer...}... is more terror really the only answer?
to me as an outsider, all i can see is two nations with massive ego's, stubbornly not wanting to make the first move towards a solution.
Who said anything about more terror being the answer? Read back through my last five or so posts.
This conflict would have been brought to an end a long time ago if Israel weren't routinely given a green light by the U.S at the U.N to do whatever they want. So maybe that's where you should start? Maybe you'd like to protest the fact that $4 Billion of your tax dollars are sent to Israel every year to help maintain their illegal occupation, and the bombs they use to drop on babies.
I just do my best to confront the lies whenever I see them, on here and on FB, YouTube, Twitter, the Guardian, New Yorker, Jerusalem Post, etc. That, and writing to my political representatives protesting Israel's illegal occupation, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. If I was in England I'd also be out in the streets protesting. Also, I've taken note of that list of goods and companies boycotted by the BDS campaign, and I'm gonna boycott them myself.
fairly unrelated, but you remind me of my former partner: not satisfied until he was told yes you're completely right, i will shut up and bow to your better knowledge...there's no debating or discussing anything with you - you're convinced you're right, and anyone who thinks otherwise or doesn't concur is stupid/wrong/ignorant... so i'm out...
fairly unrelated, but you remind me of my former partner: not satisfied until he was told yes you're completely right, i will shut up and bow to your better knowledge...there's no debating or discussing anything with you - you're convinced you're right, and anyone who thinks otherwise or doesn't concur is stupid/wrong/ignorant... so i'm out...
have a nice day!
What?
You chimed in claiming that I suggested Violence was the solution. I said nothing of the sort. Then when I offered some possible lines of action you could take you tell me that you can't debate anything with me and high-tail it out of here.
Can somebody please pinch me? I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.
all i can see is two nations with massive ego's, stubbornly not wanting to make the first move towards a solution...
Hence why I suggested you could scroll up the page and read my last few posts, as I explained above that a solution has already been agreed upon by the whole Word. Unfortunately this solution - the peaceful settlement of the conflict under the terms of international law - is vetoed by the U.S every year. The U.S stands alone in the World in opposing a resolution of the conflict, at Israel's behest. Hence why writing to your political reps may be a solution, or protesting in the streets, raising awareness - trying to change the deadlock. Then again, if you don't really care about the Palestinians, then you also have the option to do nothing.
@byrnzie: it's not just a reply to your answer to me, i feel you do this to everyone who had not agreed with you in the time that this thread {peacefully started by someone who copied Eddie Vedder's peaceful open letter} has been open, but all i get from you on here is I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG if anyone doesn't promote the same ideas as you have... it's very clear where you stand by now, that you think that American government is wrong for what they to and that you have the solution {have you offered your services to the United Nations already?}
this thread isn't about the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's about a pro-peace singer opting the notion of Non-Violence... All you're doing is {continually} ramming your opinion down everyone's throat, and making it a pretty aggressive affair...
@byrnzie: it's not just a reply to your answer to me, i feel you do this to everyone who had not agreed with you in the time that this thread {peacefully started by someone who copied Eddie Vedder's peaceful open letter} has been open, but all i get from you on here is I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG if anyone doesn't promote the same ideas as you have... it's very clear where you stand by now, that you think that American government is wrong for what they to and that you have the solution {have you offered your services to the United Nations already?}
this thread isn't about the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's about a pro-peace singer opting the notion of Non-Violence... All you're doing is {continually} ramming your opinion down everyone's throat, and making it a pretty aggressive affair...
shame...
Feel free to put me on ignore then. Nobody's forcing you to read my comments.
@byrnzie: it's not just a reply to your answer to me, i feel you do this to everyone who had not agreed with you in the time that this thread {peacefully started by someone who copied Eddie Vedder's peaceful open letter} has been open, but all i get from you on here is I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG if anyone doesn't promote the same ideas as you have... it's very clear where you stand by now, that you think that American government is wrong for what they to and that you have the solution {have you offered your services to the United Nations already?}
this thread isn't about the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's about a pro-peace singer opting the notion of Non-Violence... All you're doing is {continually} ramming your opinion down everyone's throat, and making it a pretty aggressive affair...
shame...
You read all the posts in this thread and that's all you got from byrnzie? Really? What about the other guys throwing insults around (including myself), why did you ignore all of us out and singled byrnzie out? I'm sorry but if you're gonna call out someone for this, please call all guilty parties. Don't single out the one guy who's been on here for years debating this sour subject, and ignore all the other "you're misinformed, you're an idiot, you're silly, you're a fucken liar!" posts. And again, byrnzie ALWAYS includes links to whatever he posts. I'm sorry but if anyone reads all the links that EVERYONE posts and doesn't see what the fuck is REALLY going on over there, then you're not being honest with YOURSELF.
Let's all stop insulting each other, including myself.
8 children killed as missiles hit Gaza playground, hospital Published time: July 28, 2014
Hopes for an imminent end to the Gaza conflict are fading, with renewed violence bringing new casualties. Israel and Hamas blame each other after eight children were killed and 46 others injured by a missile that landed in a Gaza refugee camp playground.
...A massive explosion rocked a public garden in northern Gaza, killing eight children and two adults and injuring 46 others, according to Palestinian medics. A health official at nearby Shifa Hospital said the children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the beachfront Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, AP reported.
“The children were playing and were happy, enjoying Eid, and they got hit. Some lost their heads, others their legs and hands,” eyewitness Nidal Aljerbi said.
The refugee camp park was attacked just minutes after Shifa Hospital's outpatient clinic was hit by another strike, causing more casualties.
...The World Health Organization said in a statement that it was “appalled by the continuing trend for health-care facilities, staff and vehicles to come under direct fire in Gaza” since the escalation of violence on July 8."
See this is what I'm talking about. Byrnzie puts a link to the story of MORE kids being blown away with pictures, and people ignore them and concentrate on byrnzie. Not what he posted but him speciphically. Maybe for those who don't really want to know what's going on should just stay out of the debate. This isn't about byrnzie or RR or eldarion or Gimmie or me, it's ABOUT finding aReal peace for BOTH sides.
Comments
Doing nothing is not an option.
For international law to be imposed on Israel wouldn't require a miracle. It would simply require enough public pressure to force the U.S government to quit acting as Israel's rubber stamp at the U.N Security Council.
There must be something wrong with me.
For whatever it's worth...maybe ease up on taking that anger out on the people you're discussing this with right here.
If someone wants to imply that I'm a racist, then they shouldn't act surprised when I come straight back at them.
And on that subject, what do you mean by my specific reasons? Is that another attempt to label me a racist?
You throw the fucking racism card at me and then criticize me for getting angry? Really?
Let's pretend that $4Billion our tax dollars aren't being used to drop bombs on babies, and that talking about peace, love, and understanding is the way to go.
And anyone who raises his voice above a certain level of decibels should be accused of being a racist Jew Hater - I mean, why else would anybody be so vocal and passionately opposed to mass murder and ethnic cleansing?
I've thrown nothing at you or anyone.
Palestine solidarity goes mainstream in UK as 100,000 march in London on 26 July.
"My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century."
- Noam Chomsky
I think it is pretty cool that this thread has not been locked, hard topics to discuss dispassionately indeed.
That said, I don't see any problem with what Byrnzie and others have posted. Having a problem with mothers and children being targeted in war time situation does not make you anti anything, it makes you a humanist.
I didn't say that I support, or condone it. I loathe racism, in whatever form it takes. But you're not being very honest if you think that some people aren't going to feel racism towards Jews whilst they're seeing the smashed bodies of Palestinian babies on their t.v's and computer monitors.
Not that this is really worth taking seriously. There's a far bigger outrage being committed right now.
8 children killed as missiles hit Gaza playground, hospital
Published time: July 28, 2014
Hopes for an imminent end to the Gaza conflict are fading, with renewed violence bringing new casualties. Israel and Hamas blame each other after eight children were killed and 46 others injured by a missile that landed in a Gaza refugee camp playground.
...A massive explosion rocked a public garden in northern Gaza, killing eight children and two adults and injuring 46 others, according to Palestinian medics. A health official at nearby Shifa Hospital said the children were playing on a swing when the strike hit the park in the beachfront Shati refugee camp on the edge of Gaza City, AP reported.
“The children were playing and were happy, enjoying Eid, and they got hit. Some lost their heads, others their legs and hands,” eyewitness Nidal Aljerbi said.
The refugee camp park was attacked just minutes after Shifa Hospital's outpatient clinic was hit by another strike, causing more casualties.
...The World Health Organization said in a statement that it was “appalled by the continuing trend for health-care facilities, staff and vehicles to come under direct fire in Gaza” since the escalation of violence on July 8."
Channel 4 News:
@Byrnzie: isn't the whole conflict in that part of the world proof that solving the issue with violence doesn't work?! has it worked so far? talking doesn't appear to help much either, true but how is it going to help if each action gets a retribution? isn't the terror just going to carry on, an on and on.... until there is nobody left in either Israel or Palestine {maybe that's the only answer...}... is more terror really the only answer?
to me as an outsider, all i can see is two nations with massive ego's, stubbornly not wanting to make the first move towards a solution...
Plus Byrnzie makes 100,001 (and counting).
Anger over this issue is totally understandable, Byrnzie. These are burning hot issues. Like you, I get mad as hell about some of the shit in this world and if I channel that anger into useful action that's fine but anger can be merely corrosive and often more harmful than fruitful- and I call myself out on that one, I'm not casting stones.
So can we get down to the business of thinking of something useful to do rather that blast each other? (and again, I call myself on that, for sure.)
Let's not be each others enemies here.
And none of that hippie shit either! ;-)
Read back through my last five or so posts.
This conflict would have been brought to an end a long time ago if Israel weren't routinely given a green light by the U.S at the U.N to do whatever they want. So maybe that's where you should start?
Maybe you'd like to protest the fact that $4 Billion of your tax dollars are sent to Israel every year to help maintain their illegal occupation, and the bombs they use to drop on babies.
If I was in England I'd also be out in the streets protesting.
Also, I've taken note of that list of goods and companies boycotted by the BDS campaign, and I'm gonna boycott them myself.
have a nice day!
You chimed in claiming that I suggested
Violence was the solution. I said nothing of the sort.
Then when I offered some possible lines of action you could take you tell me that you can't debate anything with me and high-tail it out of here.
Can somebody please pinch me? I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.
Hence why writing to your political reps may be a solution, or protesting in the streets, raising awareness - trying to change the deadlock.
Then again, if you don't really care about the Palestinians, then you also have the option to do nothing.
this thread isn't about the Israel/Palestine conflict, it's about a pro-peace singer opting the notion of Non-Violence... All you're doing is {continually} ramming your opinion down everyone's throat, and making it a pretty aggressive affair...
shame...
Let's all stop insulting each other, including myself.