As much as I hate Ronaldo, he stepped up about Palestine and didn't back track. Look how many followers he has around the world. Def more popular worldwide then eddie. Prob even has more to loose then Eddie. Eager waters. Mark ruffalo has been posting about the massacre. Hasn't back tracked either. I know what FUCK and byrnzie are talking about when they mention Ed back tracking.
I would agree that anger towards Israelis is completely understandable. If you want to carry that forward to Jews worldwide, based on public displays and blind support of Israel's actions such as we have seen, that too I can understand. But racism? That is a bridge too far for me. Racism is not understandable at this or any other time.
Racism against Muslims after 9/11 was not understandable. It was deplorable and shameful, and it remains so today. Let us keep a little bit of perspective.
With all that said I will repeat what I said a few days ago: I wish charges of antisemitism and hasbara both could be left out of the conversation. I don't believe I have seen a clear example of either anywhere in these threads.
Hi JimmyV,
I have some major issues with your post here. First and foremost is the inability to distinguish between "acceptable" and "understandable". But that point has been made by others, so I will not focus on that. My second major contention is your comparison of anti-semitism due to Israel's actions, with racism against Muslims following 9/11. The reason for this is that you are acting as though we live in a vacuum where all things are constant, all sides are equal, and there exists no power dynamic. This is not just you, so I apologize for focusing on my response on here to you, because many people here are committing this mistake.
You and others on here, from what I've skimmed, have mistakenly emphasized the "both sides" argument. I personally view this equivocation as minimizing the suffering of the Palestinians who live under a brutal Israeli occupation, and it actually is part of the "blame the victim" mentality that has plagued third party viewers of conflicts for far too long now.
Of course, despite how I feel about this, I understand where you're coming from with that mentality, but I do find it unacceptable. And I understand the worry about anti-semitism, because it is always a concern when people spout off intolerant views, which I concede some (few) pro-Palestinian voices hold. But from the way I read history, it is clear that intolerance that comes from a place of power (in which it can actually carry out ethnic cleansing, genocide, institute apartheid and so on) and intolerance that comes from a place of consistent victimization (which is what Palestinians, as the occupied, ethnically cleansed people are) are two very different things. Jews who lived under the Nazi Holocaust, African Americans who lived through slavery and Jim Crow, Blacks in South Africa and Irish Catholics all probably had some nasty things to say about their oppressors. As despicable as those views may be, because yes, they are equally racist and intolerant, they cannot be put on the same moral playing field as the racism of the US, South African, and British governments against those disenfranchised populations. This is similar to the racism Muslims faced following 9/11.
Now, what has been done here is that posters here have actually given credence to the accusation of anti-semitism, by addressing it over and over again and detracting from the main topic. It truly stuns me that when Eddie goes on a very angry anti-war rant where he specifically cites 1) crossing into land that doesn't belong to you and taking it, 2) our tax dollars being used to fund this, and 3) bombs being dropped on children, at a time when Israel's war on Gaza is the number 1 news story, and Israel is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid (over $3billion a year), and pictures of murdered Palestinian children are on display worldwide, in a territory occupied by Israel (land taken that does not belong to them), well, it truly stuns me that such an angry rant is not seen as being directly about this. I guess it's just coincidence that Eddie happened to feel angry that night while the number 1 news story was about Israel's war on Gaza.
This was a backtrack on Eddie's part by refusing to talk about Palestine. Given the backlash people get for calling Israel out for its crimes, it's "understandable" he'd do that
But unacceptable. I hope he finally comes out in support of Palestinian rights soon enough. It was the same when people were waiting for celebrities to publicly support Black South African rights in the 80s. The time for this will come soon.
If racism is understandable in this particular case then racism is understandable in every case throughout history. Racists always believe they have legitimate reasons to feel the way they do. Jew, Muslim, Black, Asian...it doesn't matter what group is being hated, someone somewhere believes they are correct and just to do so. Understand, this isn't splitting hairs between understandable and acceptable. This is about rejecting racism in all manners, in all shapes and sizes, and in all practices. I thought we as a society had moved past this, and I have on a few occasions in these threads rejected claims of racist or anti-Semitic activity. In my opinion, it is a step backward to state that racism in this case or any other is understandable.
I stand by the 9/11 comparison. Every situation is different and of course not every situation is equal. That was never my point. However, the events of that day and the images from New York and Washington unleashed an ugliness in this and other countries that had festered for some time. The events in Gaza and the disgusting reactions from Israeli supporters around the world are having a similar effect. We can argue back and forth about the history and the power structure all you want. To my eye the trigger and the response are not entirely different.
If you read through my posts, when I speak of "sides" I am mostly referring to the sides of the argument represented here on this board, not on the ground in Israel and Gaza. Neither "side" here has represented itself entirely well, in my opinion. There have been insults and attacks fired both ways. It has been an oftentimes ugly exchange and there have been "sides" to it.
As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 41,043
For those of you who just joined us, this thread is NOT about racism nor meant to be a place to post pictures of bloody dead people. It's about peace, love, working together, reaching out to each other.
Giving you all a big virtual hug because we're a big virtual extended family and every now and then I just gotta do that Peace and Love thang. MMMMMWWAHHH!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
"I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy." - Ed Vedder
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
edited July 2014
Damn hippie
Truth be told, I'm listening to an old and absolutely gorgeous version of Elton singing Rocket Man. Brings a sense of uplifting but sadness too.
"and I think it's gonna be a long long time"
One of these days, a real hug given.
fuckingedit! that was meant in response to Brian's post; didn't realize others had replied while I was.
umm, to the folks who run this site...remember when we'd go to reply and a message would come up saying "so and so has posted in the interim" or something to that effect? It'd be nice to have that re-instituted.
So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.
People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.
When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!
Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?
So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.
People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.
When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!
Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?
I think what bothers me with some of the comments in here is that fact that people are saying "the Jews did this and that". It is not the Jews. It is the Israeli government. Judaism is a religion, not a race or a nationality. There are stupid, unreflected people out there who have not learned anything from history or just don't care. They will use this sentiment as a justification for violence, which has nothing to do with the conflict at all. When somebody starts feeding this "thought tendency", we will end up with a situation that the world had to face some timo ago. This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
I find it a little strange that you seem to be more disgusted about a kid throwing molotov cocktails at an empty synagogue and some benign comments on a message board than you do about what is going on in Gaza right now. Out of all the headlines coming out of Gaza this is what makes you more sick? Help me understand. Honest question.
This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
I find it a little strange that you seem to be more disgusted about a kid throwing molotov cocktails at an empty synagogue and some benign comments on a message board than you do about what is going on in Gaza right now. Out of all the headlines coming out of Gaza this is what makes you more sick? Help me understand. Honest question.
How do you figure what she said minimizes how she feels about what's happening in Gaza?? That's a very unfair assumption. Is there not room in the range of human emotion and intellect to feel something and think something about two or more things at once? Where did you get the idea that she's "more" disgusted or as disgusted or anything else?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
I find it a little strange that you seem to be more disgusted about a kid throwing molotov cocktails at an empty synagogue and some benign comments on a message board than you do about what is going on in Gaza right now. Out of all the headlines coming out of Gaza this is what makes you more sick? Help me understand. Honest question.
How do you figure what she said minimizes how she feels about what's happening in Gaza?? That's a very unfair assumption. Is there not room in the range of human emotion and intellect to feel something and think something about two or more things at once?
That is why I am asking them to clarify when they say something like this "but reading headlines like this is making me sick in a way I have never felt before"
Racism is not understandable at this or any other time.
Racism against Muslims after 9/11 was not understandable. It was deplorable and shameful, and it remains so today. Let us keep a little bit of perspective.
Yes it is. It's not acceptable, but it's understandable. Whilst the Israeli's are dropping bombs on schools, hospitals, and children's playgrounds it's understandable that this will inspire acts of racism against Jews. Therefore, if Jews really wish to attack the root causes of racism towards Jews, then one of the things they can do is contribute to trying to end the illegal occupation and all of it's attendant violence.
Let's go with this. You have earlier called Israel racist against Palestinians. If we use your logic then why couldn't one borrow your words and say: If Palestinians really wish to attack the root cause of racism towards Palestinians then one of the things they can do is contribute to trying to end suicide bombings, terrorism and rocket attacks on innocent civilians.
This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
I find it a little strange that you seem to be more disgusted about a kid throwing molotov cocktails at an empty synagogue and some benign comments on a message board than you do about what is going on in Gaza right now. Out of all the headlines coming out of Gaza this is what makes you more sick? Help me understand. Honest question.
How do you figure what she said minimizes how she feels about what's happening in Gaza?? That's a very unfair assumption. Is there not room in the range of human emotion and intellect to feel something and think something about two or more things at once? Where did you get the idea that she's "more" disgusted or as disgusted or anything else?
I'm sorry but I got the same thing dignin got out of her post. And she has absolutely EVERY right to have that opinion. I mean if u care so much about religious places, how many mosques has Israel destroyed in the last 3 weeks? How many schools WITH children in them? How many UN safe house WITH civilians in it? But an empty synagogue? I'm just saying.
And PJ Soul, I believe the reason was made about her comment by dignin because with ALL the things being posted on this thread and all over the world, something so minimal as any empty synagogue with no casualties got her to speak out. Which she has EVERY right to do.
I find it more troubling that if the story about the idf soldiers coming out and saying they were ordered to shoot to kill does come out to being true, the actual threat that was made in comment about his life being in danger in the country he's sworn to protect. That's pretty fucked up, just for speaking out. Now why would they or he speak out if it wasn't true? What are they gonna gain?
So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.
People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.
When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!
Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?
This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
I find it a little strange that you seem to be more disgusted about a kid throwing molotov cocktails at an empty synagogue and some benign comments on a message board than you do about what is going on in Gaza right now. Out of all the headlines coming out of Gaza this is what makes you more sick? Help me understand. Honest question.
How do you figure what she said minimizes how she feels about what's happening in Gaza?? That's a very unfair assumption. Is there not room in the range of human emotion and intellect to feel something and think something about two or more things at once? Where did you get the idea that she's "more" disgusted or as disgusted or anything else?
I'm not sure if there is any point PJSoul. I have said the exact same thing a million times and it seems if you bring up Hamas or active anti-semitism it is just a deflection from the real atrocity.
I am anti violence and anti war. Never would I say that it is okay to be violent against children or any innocent person. I do not even take a side in this whole discussion. I would love peace for everybody. All I was saying is that, being a German, reading about "side effects" that this conflict is starting to have in areas that are not even affected by it is making me sick. Because of the history of my country. And I feel bothered by the way of how some of the comments in here are worded. Blame it on my German upbringing. Thank you, PJ_Soul.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
I think what bothers me with some of the comments in here is that fact that people are saying "the Jews did this and that". It is not the Jews. It is the Israeli government. Judaism is a religion, not a race or a nationality. There are stupid, unreflected people out there who have not learned anything from history or just don't care. They will use this sentiment as a justification for violence, which has nothing to do with the conflict at all. When somebody starts feeding this "thought tendency", we will end up with a situation that the world had to face some timo ago. This is what my major problem is with some of the comments in here. This is why people think that some of the comments in here sound antisemitic. Because they fucking do. And it is disgusting.
Over 1,200 Palestinians killed, most of them children, and you're suggesting that it's a shock and a surprise this is fueling some racial hatred against Jews? Really? And if someone points out that Israel's latest round of slaughtering civilians will understandably give rise to racism against Jews, then they too are racists?
Wow! Mainstream U.S T.V must really be doing a superb job.
Why don't we take the video that BS44325 posted? It contains a Muslim man calling for exterminating Jews. As we speak Israel is exterminating Palestinians. But you're more shocked and disgusted by somebody's words than by Israel's actions?
Watch this video. It contains footage of a man interviewed after his wife and children were murdered by the Israeli's. He says he wants to strap on a suicide belt and kill Israeli's. Is that shocking and disgusting to you? Is it something that you cannot understand? 02:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkawVngYlIs
Therefore, would it be reasonable for somebody to conclude that you regard the life of an Israeli above that of a Palestinian, and that therefore your accusation of racism is in fact a projection of your own racism towards Arabs?
I am anti violence and anti war. Never would I say that it is okay to be violent against children or any innocent person. I do not even take a side in this whole discussion. I would love peace for everybody. All I was saying is that, being a German, reading about "side effects" that this conflict is starting to have in areas that are not even affected by it is making me sick. Because of the history of my country. And I feel bothered by the way of how some of the comments in here are worded. Blame it on my German upbringing.
And who's been blaming the "Jews?". I know I've been saying Israel from day 1 because I can tell the difference between "Jews" and "Israelis Governement."
So when you label Israelis as racist, as you just did above, that is ok because it is based on "fact". No one should be angered or outraged because you have a handy link to some website of truth.
People are free to make up their own minds based on the facts. Either the fact of 86% of Israeli's supporting the current massacre, or the fact of Israeli's in the streets cheering the murder of Palestinian children.
When I out you as a racist based on your own words; "Racism against Jews is perfectly understandable at this point in time. Only a fool would believe otherwise." well that is the ultimate insult and cannot stand!
Looks like your English comprehension skills aren't up to scratch? Do you know the meaning of the word 'understandable'?
No. That video is not understandable. One should not even try to understand it. It is pure filth and evil and has infected your movement. People like you have excused it as understandable for far too long that it has consumed everything positive from that part of the world. Israel could leave all of "Palestine" tomorrow and what would you have left? Within two weeks it would be another caliphate with no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no freedom for women, no freedom for gays and certainly no freedom for rock and roll. Post after post you criticize Israel for the horrors they have inflicted on Palestinian children when the ultimate horror inflicted is the future you have left them by being so understandable.
badbrains, see above... I read this more as the fact that it's particularly visible for Leezestarr313, where the hatred had formerly been further removed. Despite the horrific images of Gaza in its current state, if I watched one man attacked here, it might take over in my mind for a while, and I don't think it would even be a conscious decision - it's just your mind reacting to the nearness of an event. I don't want to speak on her behalf, but I would venture a guess that her disgust would be no different had it been an anti-Palestinian or anti-Arab sentiment.
Yes, thank you. This is not the one incident that has me speaking out. I am following this thread. I keep informing myself. The fact that I don't participate in this flaming discussion does not mean that I do not know about it. This thread has been very tight when it comes to opinions. It is clear where the main commenters are standing. I do not want to engage in the discussion, I just wanted to share my personal little perception of something that sprung out of this conflict and got me thinking´because yes, it has a certain nearness to it. Guess what - I'm still anti-war. Oh, and I do not turn to U.S. tv for political information. It is a language issue. I feel better informed reading news in my native language.
Post edited by Leezestarr313 on
Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue!
'...the real scandal today is not antisemitism but the importance it is given. Israel has committed war crimes. It has implicated Jews generally in these crimes, and Jews generally have hastened to implicate themselves. This has provoked hatred against Jews. Why not? Some of this hatred is racist, some isn’t, but who cares? Why should we pay any attention to this issue at all? Is the fact that Israel’s race war has provoked bitter anger of any importance besides the war itself? Is the remote possibility that somewhere, sometime, somehow, this hatred may in theory, possibly kill some Jews of any importance besides the brutal, actual, physical persecution of Palestinians, and the hundreds of thousands of votes for Arabs to be herded into transit camps? Oh, but I forgot. Drop everything. Someone spray-painted antisemitic slogans on a synagogue.'- Michael Neumann
Israel's apologists love to play the racism card, because now that the majority of people - those whose main source of information isn't mainstream U.S T.V - have become aware of the facts relating to this conflict, it's all they have.
And we now have Israeli's squawking about the potential for another European holocaust due to the massive demonstrations taking place across Europe in protest at Israel's latest massacre of Palestinians.
You want to talk about 'disgusting'? I'll tell you what I think is disgusting: using the victims of the holocaust to score political points and deflect attention from the deliberate slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
No. That video is not understandable. One should not even try to understand it. It is pure filth and evil and has infected your movement. People like you have excused it as understandable for far too long that it has consumed everything positive from that part of the world. Israel could leave all of "Palestine" tomorrow and what would you have left? Within two weeks it would be another caliphate with no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no freedom for women, no freedom for gays and certainly no freedom for rock and roll. Post after post you criticize Israel for the horrors they have inflicted on Palestinian children when the ultimate horror inflicted is the future you have left them by being so understandable.
Ah, the truth at last! BS44325 hates Muslims, and he justifies the slaughter of Palestinians with reference to an imaginary future.
And he has the audacity to accuse me of being racist? Really?
Comments
I stand by the 9/11 comparison. Every situation is different and of course not every situation is equal. That was never my point. However, the events of that day and the images from New York and Washington unleashed an ugliness in this and other countries that had festered for some time. The events in Gaza and the disgusting reactions from Israeli supporters around the world are having a similar effect. We can argue back and forth about the history and the power structure all you want. To my eye the trigger and the response are not entirely different.
If you read through my posts, when I speak of "sides" I am mostly referring to the sides of the argument represented here on this board, not on the ground in Israel and Gaza. Neither "side" here has represented itself entirely well, in my opinion. There have been insults and attacks fired both ways. It has been an oftentimes ugly exchange and there have been "sides" to it.
As for what Eddie said, only he knows for sure what he meant that night at Milton Keynes. But to insist that he was speaking specifically and exclusively about Israel ignores the prior history of his political rants. This is a guy who has never minced his words and never had a problem being specific in his rants. Not about Bush, not about the NRA, not about Iraq, etc. To accuse him of backtracking because he did not single out Israel in his follow-up is unfair to him. He said his piece, and then he said it again. I know the issue is deeply personal to you, and I can understand why you would want him to weigh in more deeply than he did. Israel was certainly a factor that night, but it was not the only one.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Giving you all a big virtual hug because we're a big virtual extended family and every now and then I just gotta do that Peace and Love thang. MMMMMWWAHHH!
deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy." - Ed Vedder
Truth be told, I'm listening to an old and absolutely gorgeous version of Elton singing Rocket Man. Brings a sense of uplifting but sadness too.
"and I think it's gonna be a long long time"
One of these days, a real hug given.
fuckingedit! that was meant in response to Brian's post; didn't realize others had replied while I was.
umm, to the folks who run this site...remember when we'd go to reply and a message would come up saying "so and so has posted in the interim" or something to that effect? It'd be nice to have that re-instituted.
Understandable
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/synagogue-in-germany-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails/article19818177/
Can't there be any peaceful solution to this whole conflict?
Understandable
You have earlier called Israel racist against Palestinians. If we use your logic then why couldn't one borrow your words and say: If Palestinians really wish to attack the root cause of racism towards Palestinians then one of the things they can do is contribute to trying to end suicide bombings, terrorism and rocket attacks on innocent civilians.
Understandable
And PJ Soul, I believe the reason was made about her comment by dignin because with ALL the things being posted on this thread and all over the world, something so minimal as any empty synagogue with no casualties got her to speak out. Which she has EVERY right to do.
I find it more troubling that if the story about the idf soldiers coming out and saying they were ordered to shoot to kill does come out to being true, the actual threat that was made in comment about his life being in danger in the country he's sworn to protect. That's pretty fucked up, just for speaking out. Now why would they or he speak out if it wasn't true? What are they gonna gain?
Thank you, PJ_Soul.
Wow! Mainstream U.S T.V must really be doing a superb job.
Why don't we take the video that BS44325 posted? It contains a Muslim man calling for exterminating Jews. As we speak Israel is exterminating Palestinians. But you're more shocked and disgusted by somebody's words than by Israel's actions?
Watch this video. It contains footage of a man interviewed after his wife and children were murdered by the Israeli's. He says he wants to strap on a suicide belt and kill Israeli's. Is that shocking and disgusting to you? Is it something that you cannot understand? 02:07
Therefore, would it be reasonable for somebody to conclude that you regard the life of an Israeli above that of a Palestinian, and that therefore your accusation of racism is in fact a projection of your own racism towards Arabs?
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Israel's apologists love to play the racism card, because now that the majority of people - those whose main source of information isn't mainstream U.S T.V - have become aware of the facts relating to this conflict, it's all they have.
And we now have Israeli's squawking about the potential for another European holocaust due to the massive demonstrations taking place across Europe in protest at Israel's latest massacre of Palestinians.
You want to talk about 'disgusting'? I'll tell you what I think is disgusting: using the victims of the holocaust to score political points and deflect attention from the deliberate slaughter of Palestinian civilians.
And he has the audacity to accuse me of being racist? Really?
It's not the critics of Israel's slaughter of Arabs that are the racists, it's you Islamophobes that are the racists.
You are on the wrong side of history, just as the U.S was on the wrong side of history with it's full support of Apartheid South Africa.