Lots of people lean to the left here huh?

rgambs

the USA chant IS aggressive, we have a patriotism that rivals the Third Reich. We teach our children to salute the flag and swear blind fealty every morning

rgambs

the USA chant IS aggressive, we have a patriotism that rivals the Third Reich. We teach our children to salute the flag and swear blind fealty every morning

callen

rgambs said:

the USA chant IS aggressive, we have a patriotism that rivals the Third Reich. We teach our children to salute the flag and swear blind fealty every morning

Was going to say same thing. Pledge of allegiance. Let's add fighter jets at beginning of major sporting events. Was at janes addiction show when Osama was killed. Fairly liberal crowd egged on by band to do the ole USA chant. We are brainwashed in this country no doubt.

brianlux

PJ_Soul said:

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Very politically outspoken left-wing band = left-leaning fan base. Makes sense (and btw, I disagree that the fan base is centrist. I think it's quite clearly left-leaning if we're talking averages). I often wonder about right-wingers who are 10C members... doesn't make too much sense to me. Why would someone be a massive fan of a band when their very clear message - including that which is within their music in so many cases - go against what they believe in? :-/ I would NEVER be a big fan of a band that was very politically driven and outspoken and right wing. As someone who is left wing, why would I?? That wouldn't make any sense.

Some folks aren't scared of other people's ideas and can show respect for those they disagree with. I would think that would be what a "liberal" would think too but doesn't seem to work that way.

What do you mean, "scared of other people's ideas"? And "show respect for those they disagree with"?? I am neither scared nor disrespectful. I didn't say I run screaming from bands that play music that expresses right-wing views or spit on them. But I'm not about to be spending my time as a fan of musicians who write songs about the right to bear arms, anti-abortionists, the majesty of capitalism and non-regulation, and war for oil, just for example, right??? I wouldn't. It would make me a hypocrite and kind of a weirdo.

Liberals support abortion, which is by definition the killing of a fetus. Conservatives find that a little weird too. Each side has their issues they have to live with.

As a conservative I am pro-life, pro-guns (with certain requirements to own) and pro-capitalism (self-determination). As a conservative (and a human), I can understand why Pearl Jam takes an opposite stance on all three of those items, and I know they are not taking those positions out of some selfish motive, but have sincere reasons. I can respect their differing opinions and enjoy their music and don't think of them as bad people. That is not weird or hypocritical. It is called being open minded and not closing yourself off to listen to only people that agree with your worldview. My opinions have changed because of listening to Pearl Jam, reading posts by liberals on this board, etc.... I guess to be normal I should have listened to only Ted Nugent.

honestly, my take away from that is that I guess you must take the issues less seriously than me. Either that, or yeah, you're a weirdo, because being a fan of someone who has spoken VERY strongly for the right to what you consider to be the murder of babies does not seem normal at all.

No, i'm not about to be a fan of a band who preaches stripping me of my rights as a woman or that guns shohldn't be regulated or that war for oil is okay or that it's anything other than inhumane to allow people tondie just because they can't afford healthcare, or that gays don't deserve equality. Fuck that. Those ideals make me angry and are completely offensive to me, and are things that i think lend to a barbaric mindset in society. So i'm not about to feel bad about not wanting to support any artist that pushes such ideas through their art. I think that would be nuts. I'm no apologist. I see no benefit in allowing myself to be understanding about those issues. Why should i accept things that i find offensive and harmful in the name of being "openminded"? For me, those are things to fight against (and they are for Pearl Jam too!). But for the record, i am generally an openminded person.... but not about issues like that. I do take time to understand and hear the opposing viewpoints, but more because i want to understand better what i'm so strongly against, not because i am willing to consider thataybe they're okay viewpoints. Nothingnwrong with standing strong for what you believe in!

But honestly, this is really hypothetical. I haven't even been exposed to any bands that support shit like that - lucky for me, most artists are in fact liberal.

So true. In fact, isn't it true that most creative people tend to be more liberal- musicians, artists, actors? Maybe even writers although, damn, there a

rgambs said:

the USA chant IS aggressive, we have a patriotism that rivals the Third Reich. We teach our children to salute the flag and swear blind fealty every morning

Oh, totally. I hate that fucking chant. Every time I hear it my skin crawls. The Third Reich analogy comes to my mind as well!

rgambs

mickeyrat said:

rgambs said:

mickeyrat said:

I just want it known I participated. Rightly or wrongly. I was engaged in it. At least partially. Next election I would put a yard sign in that says . Vote. dont care who , dont care why. Just vote. be an active participant.

sorry, but voting in november is not participating. Choosing between two candidate with which you disagree does nothing to dismantle the status quo. Each time there is a true people's movement (labor struggles and socialism in early 1900's, counter-culture and war protest in the later half) it is destroyed when the power of the people as a whole is siphoned into electoral politics. You can't fight fire with fire and you can't change electoral politics at the polls. Living the change you wish for is the only vote that makes a difference.

well for starters lets get more people to the polls to begin with hmm? we'll address the other art of your assumption about me later.
http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

no need! I wasn't assuming anything about you personally, only making a general point. The point stands though.
If every eligible voter turns out and casts a ballot for either Mitt "Moneybags" Romney or Barack "DroneWar" Obama we are stuck right where we are now. It goes the same down to the state elections and the system eats "good" candidates up. Ron Pauls are routinely brought to the dark side or pushed to the outside, otherwise Congress would be full of these types. Nothing short of revolution can save us and I can't support revolution as it is always just a bloody, murderous game of musical despots. If the general citizenry was as smart and capable as the average 10clubber maybe we would have a chance at a better world....
Unfortunately the general citizenry is as smart and capable as...I dunno...Good Charlotte

Byrnzie

mickeyrat said:

I just want it known I participated. Rightly or wrongly. I was engaged in it. At least partially. Next election I would put a yard sign in that says . Vote. dont care who , dont care why. Just vote. be an active participant.

What's the point? By voting, you're just giving your consent to the current state of affairs. You're not 'contributing' to anything other than declaring your acceptance of one of two sides of the same coin - one of two shades of shit. It's a completely meaningless charade, and has nothing to do with active participation. Placing a tick in a box on a piece of paper once every four years, and declaring your choice between two different representatives of big business - whose job is to serve the interests of the wealthy elites, and who couldn't give a fuck about the needs of the people - does not constitute 'active participation'.

callen

Byrnzie said:

mickeyrat said:

I just want it known I participated. Rightly or wrongly. I was engaged in it. At least partially. Next election I would put a yard sign in that says . Vote. dont care who , dont care why. Just vote. be an active participant.

What's the point? By voting, you're just giving your consent to the current state of affairs. You're not 'contributing' to anything other than declaring your acceptance of one of two sides of the same coin - one of two shades of shit. It's a completely meaningless charade, and has nothing to do with active participation. Placing a tick in a box on a piece of paper once every four years, and declaring your choice between two different representatives of big business - whose job is to serve the interests of the wealthy elites, and who couldn't give a fuck about the needs of the people - does not constitute 'active participation'.

We could have McCain and Palin running things. Good people voted.

rgambs

callen said:

Byrnzie said:

mickeyrat said:

I just want it known I participated. Rightly or wrongly. I was engaged in it. At least partially. Next election I would put a yard sign in that says . Vote. dont care who , dont care why. Just vote. be an active participant.

What's the point? By voting, you're just giving your consent to the current state of affairs. You're not 'contributing' to anything other than declaring your acceptance of one of two sides of the same coin - one of two shades of shit. It's a completely meaningless charade, and has nothing to do with active participation. Placing a tick in a box on a piece of paper once every four years, and declaring your choice between two different representatives of big business - whose job is to serve the interests of the wealthy elites, and who couldn't give a fuck about the needs of the people - does not constitute 'active participation'.

We could have McCain and Palin running things. Good people voted.

they are different features of the same machine. Of course nobody wants to see Palin in power, and Mitt was trying to start war with Iran from the damn campaign stump, but they serve the same masters. Bush voted bailout and so did Obama. Now Eric Holder tells the banks "you are too big to face any consequences for your actions, go gamble and launder money for terrorists, and while youre at it, hold our entire economy hostage." paraphrased of course. The point stands, voting is a spectacle.

rgambs

more embarrassing and worse, yes, but still the same system. The president isn't the only election, and as a whole we can't defeat the election system by voting for candidates selected by the system.

polaris_x

PJ_Soul said:

Cosmo said:

backseatLover12 said:

Personally, even the "American" label is a turn off, because I don't like the stigmas and stereotypes that go with it.

I only like the label "human being" because that's what I am.

People need to realize that the government want us to label ourselves according to the 2 party system, therefore we're kept under control. Think outside that box and you're suddenly out of everyone's control and under only your own.

...
I agree... the 'American' label has been tainted, of late. The'U-S-A!!!' chant has also taken a hit because of its overuse as a war cry. At a Hockey game in the Olympics... okay. As a cheer to send off someone else's kid to protect U.S. corporate interests... no.
I just think that if we are going to label ourselves... we need to put those political labels where they belong... in the trash.

As someone not American, I must admit, that "U-S-A!!" chant is very off-putting. It has a very aggressive vibe. I personally know and like Americans enough to know that most don't intend it that way, but I don't think the same can be said for most non-Americans. Most of them cringe at that, because, just as you say, it seems like a war cry.... at the Olympics and shit. lol

really ... the worst part of that chant is that it is generally now used in the most moronic of situations like if a an american team is playing a canadian team ... like serious facepalms ...

gimmesometruth27

prime example of the moronic use of the USA chant is watching hacksaw jim duggan rally the crowd at every jankass wwf tv appearance during the first gulf war... triple facepamlms...

Godfather.

) this place is like a hippie camp from the 60's and when war started many of them ran with their tales between their between thier legs to canada.

Godfather.

backseatLover12

rgambs said:

more embarrassing and worse, yes, but still the same system. The president isn't the only election, and as a whole we can't defeat the election system by voting for candidates selected by the system.

This.

rgambs

Godfather. said:

) this place is like a hippie camp from the 60's and when war started many of them ran with their tales between their between thier legs to canada.

Godfather.

and the drones march off to kill babies. I would prefer canada to murder but we all make our choices Godfather, don't we?

mikepegg44

I had that opinion when I first came here too. I don't think it is necessarily the case though. I just think the same faces ranging slightly left of center to way left continue to stay here where as those that consider themselves conservatives in the NEO-Con sense tend to leave and are replaced by others. So you see the same names on the left, but not always on the right. But that is just an opinion that is a generalized oversimplification, like using the terms left and right to begin with.

As for myself, I feel like my opinions rankle both sides that leads me to believe I am on to something. Some people go issue by issue, some go by principle...
I am not sure what I think is better...all too often those that believe they stand on principle bend those principles when it fits their own personal agenda. Like paying lipservice to wanting to shrink government when what you really mean I just want to shrink the size of the programs I disagree with. Standing on principle sometimes means that I personally will be negatively affected by what I advocate and the willingness to do that is what is missing from our elected officials.

Lean left or lean right doesn't matter to me, I stealth read these forums more than I participate anymore and I do so because multiple sides are represented (not always well mind you). The real observation people should make about the AMT is that well reasoned and well written posts come from someone who has thought about the issue and genuinely cares, left or right that is what I come here for...because I see them here more often than other places. There is more compassion and respect for the other "side" of an argument here than I have witnessed in my forum bouncing over the years.

PJ_Soul

mikepegg44 said:

I had that opinion when I first came here too. I don't think it is necessarily the case though. I just think the same faces ranging slightly left of center to way left continue to stay here where as those that consider themselves conservatives in the NEO-Con sense tend to leave and are replaced by others. So you see the same names on the left, but not always on the right. But that is just an opinion that is a generalized oversimplification, like using the terms left and right to begin with.

That's funny, because I would say the same thing except in reverse. I feel like there are a few Neo-Cons who are always around, and the lefties drift in and out with more frequency. :-?

I think this is a pretty civil forum all around too..... I'm sure we generally have the mods to thank for that though. I think it would have spiraled out of control long ago if everyone wasn't under the threat of being banned, lol!

polaris_x

left is right but right is wrong

callen

rgambs said:

callen said:

Byrnzie said:

mickeyrat said:

I just want it known I participated. Rightly or wrongly. I was engaged in it. At least partially. Next election I would put a yard sign in that says . Vote. dont care who , dont care why. Just vote. be an active participant.

What's the point? By voting, you're just giving your consent to the current state of affairs. You're not 'contributing' to anything other than declaring your acceptance of one of two sides of the same coin - one of two shades of shit. It's a completely meaningless charade, and has nothing to do with active participation. Placing a tick in a box on a piece of paper once every four years, and declaring your choice between two different representatives of big business - whose job is to serve the interests of the wealthy elites, and who couldn't give a fuck about the needs of the people - does not constitute 'active participation'.

We could have McCain and Palin running things. Good people voted.

they are different features of the same machine. Of course nobody wants to see Palin in power, and Mitt was trying to start war with Iran from the damn campaign stump, but they serve the same masters. Bush voted bailout and so did Obama. Now Eric Holder tells the banks "you are too big to face any consequences for your actions, go gamble and launder money for terrorists, and while youre at it, hold our entire economy hostage." paraphrased of course. The point stands, voting is a spectacle.

Agree shit sandwich either way but we're better off w Obama in office. Didn't send troops into Libya or Syria, repealed DADT, let Colorado and Washington do their thing and best part pissed off cracker Honkeys. Saved auto industry and economy back on track. Would it be great if everyone stayed at home, sure. Just not going to happen.

Byrnzie

Godfather. said:

) this place is like a hippie camp from the 60's and when war started many of them ran with their tales between their between thier legs to canada.

Godfather.

The anti-war movement was mostly run by veterans who had served their time in Vietnam.

But then I expect you wouldn't know that from watching the t.v.

Godfather.

rgambs said:

Godfather. said:

) this place is like a hippie camp from the 60's and when war started many of them ran with their tales between their between thier legs to canada.

Godfather.

and the drones march off to kill babies. I would prefer canada to murder but we all make our choices Godfather, don't we?

killing babies.....now there's an age old comeback, kinda of odd though if we think about abortion,how many people use that come-back "killing babies" that have had or been involved with an abortion ?...I wonder. we all like to believe our idea's of peace and war but many of don't realize that we violate our own beliefs right here on the home front,I'm not saying that you do but for a large part I'd bet a lot of people bend the rules for them selfs or their personal secrete lifes...you know the ghost in the closet type thing,and I'm called a bigot LOL!!! again man I'm not saying that you are any of these thing but your post has me thinking about the real life and so called beliefs of people that make accusations about things they have never experianced , we can all watch the news and cast judgement or cry foul but I would think it's not a fair call unless you have lived it.
that's my babble for the morning.....hahhahhahhahhha.

Godfather.