my point is that you can still enjoy your records at home and then when you're on the road you can listen to high quality vinyl rips instead of CDs or your iPod.
Project Update #24: Clarifications Regarding Update #23 & the PonoPlayer Design Posted by the PonoMusic Team Black heart (cards) Like Clarification about the PonoPlayer Output Impedance
Some have expressed concerns about the output impedance of the PonoPlayer being 5 ohms. It is important to note that it is trivial to make the output impedance arbitrarily low -- simply add more and more and more feedback. The problem is that this will make the player sound worse, not better!
All products designed by Ayre (since its inception 21 years ago) have no negative feedback. This results in a more natural sound because feedback can only attempt to correct for an error after it has occurred -- clearly an impossibility. If negative feedback actually worked as people claim, then all products would sound the same because the negative feedback would eliminate the errors. But not all amplifiers sound the same, so feedback is clearly not the answer!
The reason that output impedance is somewhat important is that the impedance of headphones almost always vary with frequency. If the output impedance of the headphone driver circuit is too high, then there will be a voltage divider action between the impedance of the headphone and the output impedance of the headphone amplifier that results in audible frequency response errors.
Now, to some extent this is meaningless as all headphones have inherent frequency response errors anyway. It may be that some headphones (through sheer luck) may produce an overall flatter frequency response with an amplifier that has a high output impedance. But luck and hope are not good ways to design things.
Instead, the goal it to reduce the output impedance to a point that is low enough that there are no meaningful frequency response errors with almost any headphone on the market. In the real world this means that the output impedance of a headphone amplifier should be less than about 10 ohms or so. Lower impedances will result in lower frequency response errors due to the interaction between the output impedance of the headphone amplifier and the headphone impedance itself. But lowering the output impedance through the use of feedback will introduce new sonic problems that are much worse than the original problem.
The only other way to reduce the output impedance of the headphone amplifier is to increase the idle current in the amplifier circuit. This is fine for a home stereo where there is virtually unlimited power available from any wall socket. But a portable player is a different animal altogether. Increasing the idle current of the amplifier will obviously shorten the battery life of the device. The art of engineering is the art of compromise. And when you have a chance to listen to the PonoPlayer, we promise that you will be more than happy with the choices we have made.
The 5 ohm output impedance of the PonoPlayer is the best overall compromise which minimizes interactions between the headphone amplifier and the headphone while maintaining good battery life, and completely avoiding the sonic problems created by the use of negative feedback. Thanks for reading this, and thanks for your questions. Correction about Converters
The Ayre QA-9 ANALOG-TO-DIGITAL converter uses a moving average design with no undershoot, overshoot, and ringing but not the digital-to-analog converter in Ayre products.
Pono will make their money through the hardware. Digital is still Digital.
no this is analog -> digital and then conversion back to analog.
The high quality flacs come from original studio or high resolution analog sources. The technology of high resolution FLACs made from the very high quality analog source and then the software on pono converts that back into analog and nothing is lost using this new pono so its not digital. I will never use my pono at home (why would I? I have my record collection to spin at home!) but on the road it will be awesome. I have a nice sound system in my car.
Pono will make their money through the hardware. Digital is still Digital.
no this is analog -> digital and then conversion back to analog.
The high quality flacs come from original studio or high resolution analog sources. The technology of high resolution FLACs made from the very high quality analog source and then the software on pono converts that back into analog and nothing is lost using this new pono so its not digital. I will never use my pono at home (why would I? I have my record collection to spin at home!) but on the road it will be awesome. I have a nice sound system in my car.
I understand. I'm just not a big enough audiophile to take advantage of it. I'm sure a lot of people will dig this thing.
It makes digital worth it. You get all the conveniences of digital and quality studio sound better than vinyl. If thats a niche, I'm in!
This is NOT digital! Well they are digital files that get converted back to analog so i guess i see your point. BUT nothing can beat the sound of a well-mixed analog vinyl made from the original analog studio source!
"Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.." 1.Alpine Valley Music Theatre East Troy, Wisconsin 09-03-2011 / 2.Alpine Valley Music Theatre East Troy, Wisconsin 09-04-2011 / 3.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 07-19-2013 / 4.iWireless Center Moline, IL 10-17-2014 / 5.Bradley Center Milwaukee, WI 10-20-2014 / 6.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-20-2016 / 7.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-22-2016 / 8.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-18-2018 / 9.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-20-2018
I'm guessing that they're looking to turn a profit on the hardware. What it comes down to is most people use Smartphones to listen to music. Smartphones have a wide variety of things they need to be able to do. In order to keep costs down certain parts aren't the best part they can be. IE the DAC (digital to analog convertor) is middle of the road on most phones.
There's already a Niche market for high end music players. Cowon is a company amongst several that make them. You don't need HD Flac to benefit from a higher quality music player.
People seem to think the PONO would only benefit those wanting to use HD Flac files. I'm willing to bet that a standard CD quality flac would sound a great deal better on a PONO than a smartphone. That's why I still use a separate music player. My 4 year old Cowon S9 still plays music much better than modern smartphones. I don't need to buy digital music, I make FLAC rips of my cd's.
99% agree!!! =D> (-1% only because I don't own a Cowon S9) I wish I was able to make this much sense so quickly during a debate I was having last night on pono's success/worth/purpose/future. Some people think they'd have to rebuy their whole music collection, in addition to keeping their fingers crossed that their favorite bands will release studio quality files with the ponomusic store... Which simply isn't true as Zod and many others have already stated. I love the fact that Pono doesn't have built in speakers... because quality is only as good as the hardware you use throughout the system. Unfortunately, we have become accustom to having an evening of music emanate from an smartphone dropped into a Solo cup. When we all should in fact be using Dixie® cups for their higher sonic fidelity... IMO
I have no idea what's going on, but I hate glass coffee cups because they make the coffee go cold faster in my imagination and i would never use my phone as an mp3 player.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I have no idea what's going on, but I hate glass coffee cups because they make the coffee go cold faster in my imagination and i would never use my phone as an mp3 player.
But think if they were limited edition, signature inscribed, Pearl Jam glass coffee mugs. Just think.
Will be watching this thread as the year unfolds. Want to hear from a board member, not some unsuspecting teenager or someone famous (or even Ed to be honest).
Agree with 2-Feign-reluctance. I am happy some of you are so exited to have a PJ edition, but @ $400 I would like to see the reviews and not purchase blindly. If everything is amazing, it might be time to go Pono in the car instead of my 160 GB Ipod Classic. I listen to vinyl @ home, and even less with a toddler, so this would be a car add on. Mp3s do sound flat. I hope it is something great, I would then just buy a basic black one in the future. I don't care about the PJ engraving , just like the PJ IPOD before was no big deal. In the end, it's about the music. I love the band, but I am no longer a walking billboard for them. I would be just as stoked to have a black Pono to play high quality music as a PJ engraved one.
Bridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/23
You just hurt all our "walking billboards" feelings... If this keyboard had a middle finger button I'd press it now. So I guess you never wear pearl jam t-shirts either? I bow down to your almightiness...
Agree with 2-Feign-reluctance. I am happy some of you are so exited to have a PJ edition, but @ $400 I would like to see the reviews and not purchase blindly. If everything is amazing, it might be time to go Pono in the car instead of my 160 GB Ipod Classic. I listen to vinyl @ home, and even less with a toddler, so this would be a car add on. Mp3s do sound flat. I hope it is something great, I would then just buy a basic black one in the future. I don't care about the PJ engraving , just like the PJ IPOD before was no big deal. In the end, it's about the music. I love the band, but I am no longer a walking billboard for them. I would be just as stoked to have a black Pono to play high quality music as a PJ engraved one.
100% disagree. Have u ever tried a glass coffee cup? It's what the audiophiles use :-/
Bridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/23
You just hurt all our "walking billboards" feelings... If this keyboard had a middle finger button I'd press it now. So I guess you never wear pearl jam t-shirts either? I bow down to your almightiness...
Agree with 2-Feign-reluctance. I am happy some of you are so exited to have a PJ edition, but @ $400 I would like to see the reviews and not purchase blindly. If everything is amazing, it might be time to go Pono in the car instead of my 160 GB Ipod Classic. I listen to vinyl @ home, and even less with a toddler, so this would be a car add on. Mp3s do sound flat. I hope it is something great, I would then just buy a basic black one in the future. I don't care about the PJ engraving , just like the PJ IPOD before was no big deal. In the end, it's about the music. I love the band, but I am no longer a walking billboard for them. I would be just as stoked to have a black Pono to play high quality music as a PJ engraved one.
I'm reading this drinking a Pearl Jam Faithful Ale in a Eddie Vedder beer coozie wearing my Pearl Jam Track suit, with my Pearl Jam socks and Pearl Jam Vans on. I got on my Pearl Jam Beanie, and am about to grab my Sessions Backspacer jacket to take my dog for a walk. Where is his Pearl Jam collar? Gotta grab my PJ20 backpack and change the baby and put on a clean Pearl Jam onesie. Dammit where are my keys and my Pearl Jam safe travels keychain? Oh right there next to my Eddie Vedder wallet. Ok, got my smokes and my Vedder Zippo..I'm good to go.
Bridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/23
Project Update #25: Last 48 Hours. Thank You from Neil Young & the PonoMusic team. Posted by the PonoMusic Team Black heart (cards) Like
Pono means righteous. It is a Hawaiian word, the one, the pureness. On behalf of Pono, we thank you for helping us give music a voice. You have helped to set the stage for a revolution in music listening. Finally, quality enters the listening space so that we can all hear and feel what the artists created, the way they heard and felt it.
This is done when the artist makes the best available, wanting to share it with you. It happens when the artist lets you hear and feel more than what is on your CD or MP3 of any song. CDs and MP3s are derived from the original masters, and now, with the PonoPlayer, you can finally feel the master in all its glory, in its native resolution, CD quality or higher, the way the artist made it, exactly. That’s the beauty of Pono.
It’s been a long time coming. It was not easy getting this far, but you made it happen by supporting Pono’s vision for better listening. We have been working with the labels, with the artists and producers, and we will continue to do that. We go to the source to find the best and bring it to you. Pono wants to preserve the history of music, in all of its beauty and expression, for all time. Forever.
There is a way to do this right, and we are going to do it. We will be sharing how we will do this with you over the next few months, while we build your first ever PonoPlayers. We are going to do some revolutionary things. We will make music available in a way that has never been done, a way that allows for constantly attaining the best listening experience.
Thank you to the artists, the recording companies, big and small, and most of all, thanks to you music lovers for making this happen with your amazing support.
You just hurt all our "walking billboards" feelings... If this keyboard had a middle finger button I'd press it now. So I guess you never wear pearl jam t-shirts either? I bow down to your almightiness...
Agree with 2-Feign-reluctance. I am happy some of you are so exited to have a PJ edition, but @ $400 I would like to see the reviews and not purchase blindly. If everything is amazing, it might be time to go Pono in the car instead of my 160 GB Ipod Classic. I listen to vinyl @ home, and even less with a toddler, so this would be a car add on. Mp3s do sound flat. I hope it is something great, I would then just buy a basic black one in the future. I don't care about the PJ engraving , just like the PJ IPOD before was no big deal. In the end, it's about the music. I love the band, but I am no longer a walking billboard for them. I would be just as stoked to have a black Pono to play high quality music as a PJ engraved one.
I'm reading this drinking a Pearl Jam Faithful Ale in a Eddie Vedder beer coozie wearing my Pearl Jam Track suit, with my Pearl Jam socks and Pearl Jam Vans on. I got on my Pearl Jam Beanie, and am about to grab my Sessions Backspacer jacket to take my dog for a walk. Where is his Pearl Jam collar? Gotta grab my PJ20 backpack and change the baby and put on a clean Pearl Jam onesie. Dammit where are my keys and my Pearl Jam safe travels keychain? Oh right there next to my Eddie Vedder wallet. Ok, got my smokes and my Vedder Zippo..I'm good to go.
Found that funny because I own most of that stuff minus the track suit and sessions jacket. Never thought to try and use them all at the same time. )
1996: Randall's Island 2 1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2 2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel 2005: Atlantic City 1 2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV) 2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4 2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2 2011: Toronto 1 2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore 2015: Central Park 2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD) 2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF) 2020: MSG | Asbury Park2021: Asbury Park 2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville 2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore
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on2legs
Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,552
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Posted by the PonoMusic Team Black heart (cards) Like
Clarification about the PonoPlayer Output Impedance
Some have expressed concerns about the output impedance of the PonoPlayer being 5 ohms. It is important to note that it is trivial to make the output impedance arbitrarily low -- simply add more and more and more feedback. The problem is that this will make the player sound worse, not better!
All products designed by Ayre (since its inception 21 years ago) have no negative feedback. This results in a more natural sound because feedback can only attempt to correct for an error after it has occurred -- clearly an impossibility. If negative feedback actually worked as people claim, then all products would sound the same because the negative feedback would eliminate the errors. But not all amplifiers sound the same, so feedback is clearly not the answer!
The reason that output impedance is somewhat important is that the impedance of headphones almost always vary with frequency. If the output impedance of the headphone driver circuit is too high, then there will be a voltage divider action between the impedance of the headphone and the output impedance of the headphone amplifier that results in audible frequency response errors.
Now, to some extent this is meaningless as all headphones have inherent frequency response errors anyway. It may be that some headphones (through sheer luck) may produce an overall flatter frequency response with an amplifier that has a high output impedance. But luck and hope are not good ways to design things.
Instead, the goal it to reduce the output impedance to a point that is low enough that there are no meaningful frequency response errors with almost any headphone on the market. In the real world this means that the output impedance of a headphone amplifier should be less than about 10 ohms or so. Lower impedances will result in lower frequency response errors due to the interaction between the output impedance of the headphone amplifier and the headphone impedance itself. But lowering the output impedance through the use of feedback will introduce new sonic problems that are much worse than the original problem.
The only other way to reduce the output impedance of the headphone amplifier is to increase the idle current in the amplifier circuit. This is fine for a home stereo where there is virtually unlimited power available from any wall socket. But a portable player is a different animal altogether. Increasing the idle current of the amplifier will obviously shorten the battery life of the device. The art of engineering is the art of compromise. And when you have a chance to listen to the PonoPlayer, we promise that you will be more than happy with the choices we have made.
The 5 ohm output impedance of the PonoPlayer is the best overall compromise which minimizes interactions between the headphone amplifier and the headphone while maintaining good battery life, and completely avoiding the sonic problems created by the use of negative feedback. Thanks for reading this, and thanks for your questions.
Correction about Converters
The Ayre QA-9 ANALOG-TO-DIGITAL converter uses a moving average design with no undershoot, overshoot, and ringing but not the digital-to-analog converter in Ayre products.
The high quality flacs come from original studio or high resolution analog sources. The technology of high resolution FLACs made from the very high quality analog source and then the software on pono converts that back into analog and nothing is lost using this new pono so its not digital. I will never use my pono at home (why would I? I have my record collection to spin at home!) but on the road it will be awesome. I have a nice sound system in my car.
1.Alpine Valley Music Theatre East Troy, Wisconsin 09-03-2011 / 2.Alpine Valley Music Theatre East Troy, Wisconsin 09-04-2011 / 3.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 07-19-2013 / 4.iWireless Center Moline, IL 10-17-2014 / 5.Bradley Center Milwaukee, WI 10-20-2014 / 6.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-20-2016 / 7.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-22-2016 / 8.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-18-2018 / 9.Wrigley Field Chicago, IL 08-20-2018
(-1% only because I don't own a Cowon S9)
I wish I was able to make this much sense so quickly during a debate I was having last night on pono's success/worth/purpose/future. Some people think they'd have to rebuy their whole music collection, in addition to keeping their fingers crossed that their favorite bands will release studio quality files with the ponomusic store... Which simply isn't true as Zod and many others have already stated. I love the fact that Pono doesn't have built in speakers... because quality is only as good as the hardware you use throughout the system. Unfortunately, we have become accustom to having an evening of music emanate from an smartphone dropped into a Solo cup. When we all should in fact be using Dixie® cups for their higher sonic fidelity... IMO
http://www.movieweb.com/movie/i-love-you-man/prepare-to-be-rushified
Posters for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/117469/posters-for-sale
T-Shirts for Sale: http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/149289/pj-t-shirt-trade-or-sale
It's time to run Kenny... It's time to Run.
03 - Tampa
08 - Tampa
12 - DeLuna Fest, EV Orlando 1 & 2, EV Ft Lauderdale 1 & 2
13 - Wrigley!!! ,Brooklyn 1 & 2, Hartford, OKC, Seattle
14 - Leeds, Milton Keynes, St Louis
16 - Ft Lauderdale, Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, Wrigley 1 & 2
http://fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000055517771&MenuID=105026016
Runs $50 cheaper than Pono. Dual expansion slots...even works as an external DAC. Pono doesn't do that.
Posted by the PonoMusic Team Black heart (cards) Like
Pono means righteous. It is a Hawaiian word, the one, the pureness. On behalf of Pono, we thank you for helping us give music a voice. You have helped to set the stage for a revolution in music listening. Finally, quality enters the listening space so that we can all hear and feel what the artists created, the way they heard and felt it.
This is done when the artist makes the best available, wanting to share it with you. It happens when the artist lets you hear and feel more than what is on your CD or MP3 of any song. CDs and MP3s are derived from the original masters, and now, with the PonoPlayer, you can finally feel the master in all its glory, in its native resolution, CD quality or higher, the way the artist made it, exactly. That’s the beauty of Pono.
It’s been a long time coming. It was not easy getting this far, but you made it happen by supporting Pono’s vision for better listening. We have been working with the labels, with the artists and producers, and we will continue to do that. We go to the source to find the best and bring it to you. Pono wants to preserve the history of music, in all of its beauty and expression, for all time. Forever.
There is a way to do this right, and we are going to do it. We will be sharing how we will do this with you over the next few months, while we build your first ever PonoPlayers. We are going to do some revolutionary things. We will make music available in a way that has never been done, a way that allows for constantly attaining the best listening experience.
Thank you to the artists, the recording companies, big and small, and most of all, thanks to you music lovers for making this happen with your amazing support.
Thanks for listening,
Neil Young & the PonoMusic team.