My friend explained something to me the other night that I still can't grasp. Israelis are told from birth, that they are Gods chosen people. They deserve and have a right to everything they set their eyes on. This talk made me uncomfortable. But when you look at Israelis behaviour and view it through the eyes of an Israeli born and (brainwashed?) from birth, how else would you expect them to behave? Makes sense, despite how reprehensible their actions towards Palestine are.
Insane talk. With the majority of Israelis living secular lives, this religious babble has nothing to do with it.
My friend explained something to me the other night that I still can't grasp. Israelis are told from birth, that they are Gods chosen people. They deserve and have a right to everything they set their eyes on. This talk made me uncomfortable. But when you look at Israelis behaviour and view it through the eyes of an Israeli born and (brainwashed?) from birth, how else would you expect them to behave? Makes sense, despite how reprehensible their actions towards Palestine are.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The position I quoted earlier is from Canada’s government foreign affairs website. Apparently the Harper Cons don’t have the balls to change the official policy. Harper won’t comment on the settlements because he knows the Canadian people do not support them, and a large majority views Israel in a negative light. He refuses to ‘single out Israel’….But yes, aside from that ‘no comment’, our prime minister supports Israel without question - another reason to know which side of the fence to be on in this conversation. He was elected only because of leftist vote splitting and poor leadership in the other parties. Harper supports the Canadian equivalent of Tea Party beliefs, and has done more damage to Canada’s international reputation than any party before them. Canada’s support for Israel is what recently cost us a seat on the UNSC - something we regularly received for 6 decades.. They consider our aboriginals and environmentalists foreign radicals, they have muzzled and shut down much of our government funded scientific community, they consider Greenpeace an extremist group….(ironic considering Harper’s Israel entourage included a leader from a Zionist organization once listed as a terrorist group)….They are patsy’s for Big Oil and repeatedly put business before people on every issue. Analysts in Canada are puzzled by his stance on Israel; there are more muslims than jews here, so it’s not about votes. I’m not so puzzled. The guy is a fundamentalist evangelical - there are twice as many of them here than both jews and muslims combined. His church creed promotes climate skepticism and believes that the free market is divinely ordained. They are also staunch Zionist christians who believe Jews are the chosen people, and the second coming is imminent. He does not represent Canadians public opinion on this issue – he is part of a cult-like religious sect, and lets his personal beliefs influence Canadian policy. Now before someone tries to use this against me in the context of the thread - people, not governments – I will repeat – if any artist chose to boycott Canada due to these policies, I would support them in doing so.
Do we even live in the same country? I've been here my whole life and the Canada you describe is nothing like I have ever seen. Your description of the Canadian Conservative party and Prime Minister Harper again demonstrates how some of you are not "of sound minds".
The position I quoted earlier is from Canada’s government foreign affairs website. Apparently the Harper Cons don’t have the balls to change the official policy. Harper won’t comment on the settlements because he knows the Canadian people do not support them, and a large majority views Israel in a negative light. He refuses to ‘single out Israel’….But yes, aside from that ‘no comment’, our prime minister supports Israel without question - another reason to know which side of the fence to be on in this conversation. He was elected only because of leftist vote splitting and poor leadership in the other parties. Harper supports the Canadian equivalent of Tea Party beliefs, and has done more damage to Canada’s international reputation than any party before them. Canada’s support for Israel is what recently cost us a seat on the UNSC - something we regularly received for 6 decades.. They consider our aboriginals and environmentalists foreign radicals, they have muzzled and shut down much of our government funded scientific community, they consider Greenpeace an extremist group….(ironic considering Harper’s Israel entourage included a leader from a Zionist organization once listed as a terrorist group)….They are patsy’s for Big Oil and repeatedly put business before people on every issue. Analysts in Canada are puzzled by his stance on Israel; there are more muslims than jews here, so it’s not about votes. I’m not so puzzled. The guy is a fundamentalist evangelical - there are twice as many of them here than both jews and muslims combined. His church creed promotes climate skepticism and believes that the free market is divinely ordained. They are also staunch Zionist christians who believe Jews are the chosen people, and the second coming is imminent. He does not represent Canadians public opinion on this issue – he is part of a cult-like religious sect, and lets his personal beliefs influence Canadian policy. Now before someone tries to use this against me in the context of the thread - people, not governments – I will repeat – if any artist chose to boycott Canada due to these policies, I would support them in doing so.
Do we even live in the same country? I've been here my whole life and the Canada you describe is nothing like I have ever seen. Your description of the Canadian Conservative party and Prime Minister Harper again demonstrates how some of you are not "of sound minds".
What Drowned Out said is a lot more true than not true. If you don't know some of this stuff about Harper then you're not paying close enough attention. I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's response will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Do we even live in the same country? I've been here my whole life and the Canada you describe is nothing like I have ever seen. Your description of the Canadian Conservative party and Prime Minister Harper again demonstrates how some of you are not "of sound minds".
Instead of continuing with the ad hominems - taking another cheap shot at my sanity - why don't you try to counter what you disagree with? Or at least note exactly what I said that you disagree with, so that I can prove you wrong once again? This immaturity is getting tiresome. I can provide backup to support all of the positions in my post (not that you'd read any of it).
Regarding the repeated use of PJ members having played Israel in the past - members of PJ playing in Israel 20 years ago does not mean they were educated on the topic at that time, nor does it make it ok for them to play there now. And I repeat - this is exactly why PJ should NOT play there. Every time a debate on boycott comes up, bands who have performed there are trotted out as examples of why more bands should play there despite the political reasons not to. This puts PJ firmly on the wrong side of history, and world public opinion. I would hope they care enough about their activist legacy to not want their band's name associated with apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Considering Ed's comments on the recent tour (regarding MJ legalization and marriage equality in WA state placing them on the 'right' side of history), and interviews (that his daughters becoming strong activists is his greatest hope for their future), I would think this is still important to them.
What Drowned Out said is a lot more true than not true. If you don't know some of this stuff about Harper then you're not paying close enough attention. I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
The thing is - we do support Israel's atrocities in this conflict by being a democratic state that does virtually nothing to help the Palestinians. So although we're once removed from the occupation, we still play a part. If our role in the conflict was enough to make an artist want to boycott Canada, I would be ok with that. I am not of the stfu and lets rock school. I wish more artists would use the pedestals we put them on to voice their opinions and try to stir positive change - the fact that our youth don't participate in, or pay attention to politics is a huge reason why we end up with leaders like Harper who don't represent our values. If our idols got more involved, you can bet our youth would too. If I couldn't see a band play live again because of a political stance, I would not take it personally, nor try to convince them that me seeing them in concert is more important than their integrity as activists, or more important than the cause they're supporting. If it was a cause I strongly disagreed with the artist on, it would likely force me to choose whether or not to continue to support them.
What Drowned Out said is a lot more true than not true. If you don't know some of this stuff about Harper then you're not paying close enough attention. I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
The thing is - we do support Israel's atrocities in this conflict by being a democratic state that does virtually nothing to help the Palestinians. So although we're once removed from the occupation, we still play a part. If our role in the conflict was enough to make an artist want to boycott Canada, I would be ok with that. I am not of the stfu and lets rock school. I wish more artists would use the pedestals we put them on to voice their opinions and try to stir positive change - the fact that our youth don't participate in, or pay attention to politics is a huge reason why we end up with leaders like Harper who don't represent our values. If our idols got more involved, you can bet our youth would too. If I couldn't see a band play live again because of a political stance, I would not take it personally, nor try to convince them that me seeing them in concert is more important than their integrity as activists, or more important than the cause they're supporting. If it was a cause I strongly disagreed with the artist on, it would likely force me to choose whether or not to continue to support them.
If artists started boycotting on these kinds of grounds, they would all starve to death because they'd have nowhere to play.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
What Drowned Out said is a lot more true than not true. If you don't know some of this stuff about Harper then you're not paying close enough attention. I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
The thing is - we do support Israel's atrocities in this conflict by being a democratic state that does virtually nothing to help the Palestinians. So although we're once removed from the occupation, we still play a part. If our role in the conflict was enough to make an artist want to boycott Canada, I would be ok with that. I am not of the stfu and lets rock school. I wish more artists would use the pedestals we put them on to voice their opinions and try to stir positive change - the fact that our youth don't participate in, or pay attention to politics is a huge reason why we end up with leaders like Harper who don't represent our values. If our idols got more involved, you can bet our youth would too. If I couldn't see a band play live again because of a political stance, I would not take it personally, nor try to convince them that me seeing them in concert is more important than their integrity as activists, or more important than the cause they're supporting. If it was a cause I strongly disagreed with the artist on, it would likely force me to choose whether or not to continue to support them.
If artists started boycotting on these kinds of grounds, they would all starve to death because they'd have nowhere to play.
True. And in regards to the topic - because Canada is not directly involved in the occupation, it's not as cut and dried. If they wanted to boycott Canada over, say, our treatment of our first nations people, or the oilsands, or whatever, that would be fine with me, too.... Artists would need to choose which cause(s) they want to bring awareness to, and which are not worth taking a stand on. As I acknowledged earlier in the thread - if we start playing the six degrees of separation (occupation) game, it would be impossible for anyone to play anywhere. However....there are no six degrees with Israel. It is not debateable that Israel is involved in the crimes mentioned in this thread. The question is whether this particular issue is important enough to PJ to keep them from playing there.
What Drowned Out said is a lot more true than not true. If you don't know some of this stuff about Harper then you're not paying close enough attention. I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
The thing is - we do support Israel's atrocities in this conflict by being a democratic state that does virtually nothing to help the Palestinians. So although we're once removed from the occupation, we still play a part. If our role in the conflict was enough to make an artist want to boycott Canada, I would be ok with that. I am not of the stfu and lets rock school. I wish more artists would use the pedestals we put them on to voice their opinions and try to stir positive change - the fact that our youth don't participate in, or pay attention to politics is a huge reason why we end up with leaders like Harper who don't represent our values. If our idols got more involved, you can bet our youth would too. If I couldn't see a band play live again because of a political stance, I would not take it personally, nor try to convince them that me seeing them in concert is more important than their integrity as activists, or more important than the cause they're supporting. If it was a cause I strongly disagreed with the artist on, it would likely force me to choose whether or not to continue to support them.
If artists started boycotting on these kinds of grounds, they would all starve to death because they'd have nowhere to play.
True. And in regards to the topic - because Canada is not directly involved in the occupation, it's not as cut and dried. If they wanted to boycott Canada over, say, our treatment of our first nations people, or the oilsands, or whatever, that would be fine with me, too.... Artists would need to choose which cause(s) they want to bring awareness to, and which are not worth taking a stand on. As I acknowledged earlier in the thread - if we start playing the six degrees of separation (occupation) game, it would be impossible for anyone to play anywhere. However....there are no six degrees with Israel. It is not debateable that Israel is involved in the crimes mentioned in this thread. The question is whether this particular issue is important enough to PJ to keep them from playing there.
Since I can't take sides on the issue because I hate both sides for various reasons, I just don't want to PJ to play there because it seems like too dangerous a region for them to go to. The "you never know" factor is just way too high. I don't care what side they take on the issue, because whatever side they take I will disagree with them. I think everyone should stay the hell away from the whole god forsaken place, in every conceivable context (which probably means I have the most radical opinion about it in this thread, lol).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Since I can't take sides on the issue because I hate both sides for various reasons, I just don't want to PJ to play there because it seems like too dangerous a region for them to go to. The "you never know" factor is just way too high. I don't care what side they take on the issue, because whatever side they take I will disagree with them. I think everyone should stay the hell away from the whole god forsaken place, in every conceivable context (which probably means I have the most radical opinion about it in this thread, lol).
) Fair enough.....I'd be ok with PJ taking a similar stance.
Regarding the repeated use of PJ members having played Israel in the past - members of PJ playing in Israel 20 years ago does not mean they were educated on the topic at that time
Ahhh...Pearl Jam was not "educated" on the topic at the time and I must be "uneducated" on the topic as well. We are all just rubes who are "not paying enough attention" as PJ_Soul would put it. Talk about ad hominems. This is why there is no point trying to engage someone such as yourself. I absolutely know that I will not change your mind. I wouldn't even try. You on the other hand feel that a few more posts will correct my way of thinking.
Pearl Jam is educated. Educated enough to know that the issues they care about, that place them "on the right side of history", are more likely to be supported by Israel then by any future Palestinian state. Freedom of speech, artist's right, gay rights, women's rights...all of these are found in Israel yet are nowhere to be seen in the rest of the middle east. Is Israel perfect? Far from it...but to boycott them is the antithesis of progress and dare I say, NOT SANE.
Hear me out!!!
You and I completely disagree but I know you are passionate about your beliefs. If you truly want your argument to win and have the Palestinian dream achieved then making posts on this forum will be completely ineffectual. In order to win you will need to convince not me but the broader Israeli public. Pursuing an artist boycott may feel like the right thing to do but history has shown that it will only stiffen Israeli resolve and set the peace process back. To reach the Israeli public and most importantly the youth of today you need to send bands like Pearl Jam into the belly of the beast. From there they could actually confront the public head on and possibly even sway minds. I might disagree with what they have to say but it certainly would be far more effectual. Don't be so obtuse. This is how you win. Encourage Pearl Jam to play and speak on your behalf.
They play Camden, Nj. It is 1000000x more dangerous than Tel Aviv.
You are soooooo correct.
I've been to Israel many more times then I've been to Camden but I was never worried or in fear of harm coming to me as I was my couple of visits to Camden.
Pearl Jam is educated. Educated enough to know that the issues they care about, that place them "on the right side of history", are more likely to be supported by Israel then by any future Palestinian state. Freedom of speech, artist's right, gay rights, women's rights...all of these are found in Israel yet are nowhere to be seen in the rest of the middle east. Is Israel perfect? Far from it...but to boycott them is the antithesis of progress and dare I say, NOT SANE.
Freedom of speech? Yeah, right. Is that why any critics of Israel's human rights abuses, and of the occupation, are now under attack from the government?
In Israel, Press Freedom Is Under Attack By DIMI REIDER Published: October 31, 2011
ON Sunday, the Tel Aviv District Court sentenced Anat Kamm, a 24-year-old journalist and former soldier, to four and a half years in prison for leaking documents containing evidence of what she suspected might be war crimes committed by her commanders.
Uri Blau, a prominent Israeli investigative reporter at Haaretz who received the documents from Ms. Kamm, is now waiting to hear whether the attorney general will indict him.
Meanwhile, the commanders implicated in the leaked documents were cleared by the attorney general, and one was promoted to deputy chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces.
The verdict sends several chilling messages. To young soldiers it says: shut up, even if you suspect your commanders of violating the law; they will go unpunished and you will go to jail if you leak. To the source it says: no one will protect you; don’t be a self-sacrificing fool. And to the journalist it says: know your place; cover what we tell you to cover, print our news releases, and keep within your bounds.
The sentencing of Ms. Kamm — who has already spent two years under house arrest — marks a watershed in the relationship between the public and the news media in Israel.
Leaks are used by journalists as a matter of course. Journalists routinely meet people like Ms. Kamm — ordinary patriotic soldiers who are horrified by the contrast between their expectations of their country and its actual conduct.
These ordinary patriots are sometimes moved to make shocking revelations about their country’s inner workings. They act out of civic duty and a belief that their compatriots need to know the truth, regardless of what official institutions think the public should know.
Ms. Kamm and Mr. Blau operated by the unwritten code of conduct that has enabled the Israeli press to monitor at least some aspects of the country’s powerful security establishment for the past 63 years. Ms. Kamm did not leak her secrets to an enemy, or even to a foreign journalist. She gave the documents to a fellow Israeli, who consulted his editors, and submitted his article to the military censor, who gave him the go-ahead.
On Sunday, we learned that this code of conduct no longer applies.
Despite the steps Ms. Kamm and Mr. Blau took, the Israeli government has labored over the past year to portray Ms. Kamm as an enemy, initially charging her with espionage. Israel’s largest newspapers jingoistically referred to her as “the soldier spy,” rushing to sensationalize the case at the expense of their own vital interest in press freedom.
The plea bargain which Ms. Kamm eventually struck left her charged with “unauthorized holding and distributing of classified information.” But the memory of the espionage charge and the implied notion that informing the public can somehow be equated with treason will continue to poison the Israeli public sphere for years to come.
It could also serve as a dangerous legal precedent.
Mr. Blau also stands accused of holding classified information without authorization and before the end of the year he might be put on trial simply for doing his job — obtaining information and publishing it in the name of the public interest.
The damage to democratic discourse in Israel caused by the imprisonment of Ms. Kamm and the possible indictment of Mr. Blau will not only affect coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it could deal a deadly blow to investigative journalism in Israel, destroying the possibility of scrutinizing any controversial subject of vital public interest.
For some years now, democracy in Israel has been under attack from the right-wing parties. This turbid wave must be stopped - the Knesset plenum must reject the libel bills of Levin and Sheetrit and preserve the status quo.
Haaretz Editorial Oct. 16, 2011
Right-wing Knesset members who are working to destroy the democratic component of Israel's definition as a "Jewish and democratic state" have set themselves a new target: Silencing the free press through the threat of libel suits that would jeopardize the economic foundations of the media outlets.
The Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, whose chairman is MK David Rotem (Yisrael Beiteinu), last week approved for a first Knesset reading a private member's bill introduced by MK Yariv Levin (Likud) that calls for increasing the compensation for libel from NIS 50,000 to NIS 300,000, with no need to prove actual damage. That sum could rise to NIS 1.5 million if the complainant's response is not published in full. As in previous votes on antidemocratic legislation, this time, too, the right found common cause with MKs from Kadima. Leading the charge was MK Meir Sheetrit, who submitted a similar bill that increases compensation for libel to NIS 500,000.
Arguing on behalf of his draft law, Levin claimed that "freedom of expression is not freedom of transgression," while Sheetrit called for protecting citizens from "the great power of the media." Neither cited statistics to support their claims that existing laws are insufficient. In the guise of concern for civil rights, their bills constitute an attempt to silence the press and keep it from exposing and criticizing government officials, their cronies and prominent businesspeople. Given the financial straits of the Israeli media, the risk of having to pay out a fortune in compensation will functio.wn as a form of economic censorship of them, and help the government and "heads of the economy" to prevent criticism of their actions.
For some years now, democracy in Israel has been under attack from the right-wing parties, which control the current Knesset and enjoy the protective support of Kadima MKs in their efforts to establish "Jewish supremacy" using the tools of law. After the "Boycott Law," aimed at silencing criticism of the settlements, now it's the turn of the free press to be a candidate for punishment and elimination. This turbid wave must be stopped. The Knesset plenum must reject the libel bills of Levin and Sheetrit and preserve the status quo.
There are now legislative moves to restrict foreign funding of human rights groups, in a move that a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa says is "strikingly similar" to laws that applied during the apartheid era. The "targets" of the law in both cases are "those consistent voices of conscience which had become a problem for the regime".
Government committee approves bills limiting funds to human rights organizations By Noam Sheizaf November 13, 2011
The Ministerial Committee for Legislation has approved two bill proposals aimed at limiting the ability of the UN and foreign governments to financially support human rights organizations in Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu supports the bills, increasing the likelihood of a Knesset majority for both legislative initiatives.
The first bill, sponsored by Likud MK Ophir Akunis seeks to limit all foreign funding for “political organizations” to 20,000 NIS (some 5,000$) per year while the other, proposed by Yisrael Beitinu’s MK Fania Kirschenbaum seeks to levy a 45 percent taxation rate on all foreign state funding of NGOs. The Knesset is expected to vote on both bills in the coming weeks.
Hagai El-Ad, Executive Director of The Israeli Association for Civil Rights, has said in response to the decision that “the current government is leading an attack on the foundations of democracy – the Supreme Court’s very independence was endangered today, as are the freedom of operations for human rights organizations.”
Dr. Ishai Menuchin, Executive Director of the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel:
"Approval of the Law Proposal limiting foreign funding for NGOs by “the Ministerial Committee on legislation” places Israel in step with non-democratic societies in the world. With this decision we have slipped further down the slippery slope of eliminating democracy in Israel. The eleven ministers who supported the proposed law (amongst them the education, culture and welfare ministers!) demonstrated a basic lack of understanding of the concept of freedom of association in a democracy, an abject lack of commitment to democracy and the strongest desire to stifle voices of those with dissenting opinions."
Note: Under pressure from the U.N and other countries, including the U.S, the passing of this law was stalled in November 2011 by Netanyahu. But the Bill wasn't scrapped and he is still under pressure to implement it.
The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth." "In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis." "Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns." "Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service"." "According to a 2003 University of Haifa study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail." "The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report […] stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"
The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."
Human Rights Watch has charged that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children: "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."[185]
According to the Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[186]
Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its budget for healthcare facility development.[186]
In March 2010, a report released by several Israeli civil rights groups stated that the current Knesset was "the most racist in Israeli history" with 21 bills proposed in 2008 and 2009 that would discriminate against the country's Arab minority.[187]
A preliminary report commissioned by Israel’s Courts Administration and the Israel Bar Association found in 2011 that Israeli Arabs are more likely than Israeli Jews to be convicted of crimes after being charged, more likely to be given custodial sentences, and were given longer sentences. It did not account for "mitigating or aggravating circumstances, prior criminal record and the convict’s gender"
Byrnzie sings the lyrics to Wishlist a little differently from the rest of us ...
I wish Iran had a neutron bomb, for once it could go off I wish Israel was a sacrifice and didn't still live on
That was clever.
So because, like most other people in the World, I oppose Israel's crimes, that means I want to see them nuked?
Like I said above; only in America could people be so brainwashed as to routinely spout such crap.
Most rational people in the World were opposed to South African Apartheid. I suppose in your peculiar little World that means those people wanted to see South Africa nuked?
BK5403, hilarious. You should have been warned that Byrnzie learned the phrase "South African Apartheid" and he will use it as some sort of paralleled in his fight to rid the Middle East of Jewish people. Also be wary of the many links and quotes that will be posted. Also really take (expecially coming from the source) the being brainwashed reference very very seriously. I kid I kid, for reals, listen to this guy. He knows all. Has interweb links to prove it. He convinced me. Death to all Israelis, long live innocent Palastinians.
I had to take a break from this thread.Watched some Olympics(We did not show up against Canada in Mens hockey ,Damn Canadians have a smothering defense)Which made me feel like watching the movie Munich.Which then strengthened my resolve on this subject and I keep trying to figure out how killing Olympic athletes by the cowardly Palestinian terrorists was justified?????? Must be in response to apartheid huh?
Byrnzie...in his fight to rid the Middle East of Jewish people.
He convinced me. Death to all Israelis
You should be banned from the board for making such twisted comments. In fact you should have been banned for telling 'Drowned Out' to go fuck himself on the first page of this thread.
Wow, well this thread just took a new turn. I had checked out because all the same shit was being said over and over again in increasingly annoying ways, but now the shit-slinging has started and I'm reengaged! :P
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Byrnzie, whoa. Slow down dude. We are on the same page. All the hate you spread has convinced me. We need to stick together so we can convince more people of your thoughts. I mean that's what I've interpreted you wanted with all your hate towards Israel.
And who is really being the troll here? I mean this was a thread for fans asking for a concert in Israel. You started posting why Israel is one of the worst countries on the planet and looking for confrontation. I would say you sir are the pathetic troll. But I'm guessing yet again, pointing the finger is much easier for you to do than taking responsibility for your own actions.
Byrnzie, whoa. Slow down dude. We are on the same page. All the hate you spread has convinced me. We need to stick together so we can convince more people of your thoughts. I mean that's what I've interpreted you wanted with all your hate towards Israel.
Nah, I just don't like racists, like yourself. People who support ethnic Nationalism and ethnic cleansing, and use everything they can to try and justify it.
As for this thread, let me guess; you want the band to just 'shut the fuck up' and play in that racist Apartheid state, and you want the fans who oppose such a thing to also 'shut the fuck up'?
You really don't know much about this band, or it's fans, do you pal?
Comments
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
I don't see why ANY artist would boycott a nation just because of the beliefs of a shitty leader. Harper is a genius at making the public (who aren't paying enough attention) think he's normal and basically still stands for what the majority of Canadians stand for (as BS44325's response will attest). Most Canadians couldn't be further apart from Harper in their core values, and society and government still largely reflects that, since it's not a dictatorship, so I don't see why artists or anyone else would boycott the citizens of Canada.
Regarding the repeated use of PJ members having played Israel in the past - members of PJ playing in Israel 20 years ago does not mean they were educated on the topic at that time, nor does it make it ok for them to play there now. And I repeat - this is exactly why PJ should NOT play there. Every time a debate on boycott comes up, bands who have performed there are trotted out as examples of why more bands should play there despite the political reasons not to. This puts PJ firmly on the wrong side of history, and world public opinion. I would hope they care enough about their activist legacy to not want their band's name associated with apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Considering Ed's comments on the recent tour (regarding MJ legalization and marriage equality in WA state placing them on the 'right' side of history), and interviews (that his daughters becoming strong activists is his greatest hope for their future), I would think this is still important to them.
Fair enough.....I'd be ok with PJ taking a similar stance.
Pearl Jam is educated. Educated enough to know that the issues they care about, that place them "on the right side of history", are more likely to be supported by Israel then by any future Palestinian state. Freedom of speech, artist's right, gay rights, women's rights...all of these are found in Israel yet are nowhere to be seen in the rest of the middle east. Is Israel perfect? Far from it...but to boycott them is the antithesis of progress and dare I say, NOT SANE.
Hear me out!!!
You and I completely disagree but I know you are passionate about your beliefs. If you truly want your argument to win and have the Palestinian dream achieved then making posts on this forum will be completely ineffectual. In order to win you will need to convince not me but the broader Israeli public. Pursuing an artist boycott may feel like the right thing to do but history has shown that it will only stiffen Israeli resolve and set the peace process back. To reach the Israeli public and most importantly the youth of today you need to send bands like Pearl Jam into the belly of the beast. From there they could actually confront the public head on and possibly even sway minds. I might disagree with what they have to say but it certainly would be far more effectual. Don't be so obtuse. This is how you win. Encourage Pearl Jam to play and speak on your behalf.
They play Camden, Nj. It is 1000000x more dangerous than Tel Aviv.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
I've been to Israel many more times then I've been to Camden but I was never worried or in fear of harm coming to me as I was my couple of visits to Camden.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/in-israel-press-freedom-is-under-attack.html?_r=0
In Israel, Press Freedom Is Under Attack
By DIMI REIDER
Published: October 31, 2011
ON Sunday, the Tel Aviv District Court sentenced Anat Kamm, a 24-year-old journalist and former soldier, to four and a half years in prison for leaking documents containing evidence of what she suspected might be war crimes committed by her commanders.
Uri Blau, a prominent Israeli investigative reporter at Haaretz who received the documents from Ms. Kamm, is now waiting to hear whether the attorney general will indict him.
Meanwhile, the commanders implicated in the leaked documents were cleared by the attorney general, and one was promoted to deputy chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces.
The verdict sends several chilling messages. To young soldiers it says: shut up, even if you suspect your commanders of violating the law; they will go unpunished and you will go to jail if you leak. To the source it says: no one will protect you; don’t be a self-sacrificing fool. And to the journalist it says: know your place; cover what we tell you to cover, print our news releases, and keep within your bounds.
The sentencing of Ms. Kamm — who has already spent two years under house arrest — marks a watershed in the relationship between the public and the news media in Israel.
Leaks are used by journalists as a matter of course. Journalists routinely meet people like Ms. Kamm — ordinary patriotic soldiers who are horrified by the contrast between their expectations of their country and its actual conduct.
These ordinary patriots are sometimes moved to make shocking revelations about their country’s inner workings. They act out of civic duty and a belief that their compatriots need to know the truth, regardless of what official institutions think the public should know.
Ms. Kamm and Mr. Blau operated by the unwritten code of conduct that has enabled the Israeli press to monitor at least some aspects of the country’s powerful security establishment for the past 63 years. Ms. Kamm did not leak her secrets to an enemy, or even to a foreign journalist. She gave the documents to a fellow Israeli, who consulted his editors, and submitted his article to the military censor, who gave him the go-ahead.
On Sunday, we learned that this code of conduct no longer applies.
Despite the steps Ms. Kamm and Mr. Blau took, the Israeli government has labored over the past year to portray Ms. Kamm as an enemy, initially charging her with espionage. Israel’s largest newspapers jingoistically referred to her as “the soldier spy,” rushing to sensationalize the case at the expense of their own vital interest in press freedom.
The plea bargain which Ms. Kamm eventually struck left her charged with “unauthorized holding and distributing of classified information.” But the memory of the espionage charge and the implied notion that informing the public can somehow be equated with treason will continue to poison the Israeli public sphere for years to come.
It could also serve as a dangerous legal precedent.
Mr. Blau also stands accused of holding classified information without authorization and before the end of the year he might be put on trial simply for doing his job — obtaining information and publishing it in the name of the public interest.
The damage to democratic discourse in Israel caused by the imprisonment of Ms. Kamm and the possible indictment of Mr. Blau will not only affect coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it could deal a deadly blow to investigative journalism in Israel, destroying the possibility of scrutinizing any controversial subject of vital public interest.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/free-press-in-israel-is-in-danger-1.390154
Free press in Israel is in danger
For some years now, democracy in Israel has been under attack from the right-wing parties. This turbid wave must be stopped - the Knesset plenum must reject the libel bills of Levin and Sheetrit and preserve the status quo.
Haaretz Editorial
Oct. 16, 2011
Right-wing Knesset members who are working to destroy the democratic component of Israel's definition as a "Jewish and democratic state" have set themselves a new target: Silencing the free press through the threat of libel suits that would jeopardize the economic foundations of the media outlets.
The Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, whose chairman is MK David Rotem (Yisrael Beiteinu), last week approved for a first Knesset reading a private member's bill introduced by MK Yariv Levin (Likud) that calls for increasing the compensation for libel from NIS 50,000 to NIS 300,000, with no need to prove actual damage. That sum could rise to NIS 1.5 million if the complainant's response is not published in full. As in previous votes on antidemocratic legislation, this time, too, the right found common cause with MKs from Kadima. Leading the charge was MK Meir Sheetrit, who submitted a similar bill that increases compensation for libel to NIS 500,000.
Arguing on behalf of his draft law, Levin claimed that "freedom of expression is not freedom of transgression," while Sheetrit called for protecting citizens from "the great power of the media." Neither cited statistics to support their claims that existing laws are insufficient. In the guise of concern for civil rights, their bills constitute an attempt to silence the press and keep it from exposing and criticizing government officials, their cronies and prominent businesspeople. Given the financial straits of the Israeli media, the risk of having to pay out a fortune in compensation will functio.wn as a form of economic censorship of them, and help the government and "heads of the economy" to prevent criticism of their actions.
For some years now, democracy in Israel has been under attack from the right-wing parties, which control the current Knesset and enjoy the protective support of Kadima MKs in their efforts to establish "Jewish supremacy" using the tools of law. After the "Boycott Law," aimed at silencing criticism of the settlements, now it's the turn of the free press to be a candidate for punishment and elimination. This turbid wave must be stopped. The Knesset plenum must reject the libel bills of Levin and Sheetrit and preserve the status quo.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/04/israeli-human-rights-activists-adalah
There are now legislative moves to restrict foreign funding of human rights groups, in a move that a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa says is "strikingly similar" to laws that applied during the apartheid era. The "targets" of the law in both cases are "those consistent voices of conscience which had become a problem for the regime".
http://972mag.com/government-to-support-bills-limiting-funds-to-human-rights-organizations/27604/
Government committee approves bills limiting funds to human rights organizations
By Noam Sheizaf
November 13, 2011
The Ministerial Committee for Legislation has approved two bill proposals aimed at limiting the ability of the UN and foreign governments to financially support human rights organizations in Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu supports the bills, increasing the likelihood of a Knesset majority for both legislative initiatives.
The first bill, sponsored by Likud MK Ophir Akunis seeks to limit all foreign funding for “political organizations” to 20,000 NIS (some 5,000$) per year while the other, proposed by Yisrael Beitinu’s MK Fania Kirschenbaum seeks to levy a 45 percent taxation rate on all foreign state funding of NGOs. The Knesset is expected to vote on both bills in the coming weeks.
Hagai El-Ad, Executive Director of The Israeli Association for Civil Rights, has said in response to the decision that “the current government is leading an attack on the foundations of democracy – the Supreme Court’s very independence was endangered today, as are the freedom of operations for human rights organizations.”
Dr. Ishai Menuchin, Executive Director of the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel:
"Approval of the Law Proposal limiting foreign funding for NGOs by “the Ministerial Committee on legislation” places Israel in step with non-democratic societies in the world. With this decision we have slipped further down the slippery slope of eliminating democracy in Israel. The eleven ministers who supported the proposed law (amongst them the education, culture and welfare ministers!) demonstrated a basic lack of understanding of the concept of freedom of association in a democracy, an abject lack of commitment to democracy and the strongest desire to stifle voices of those with dissenting opinions."
Note: Under pressure from the U.N and other countries, including the U.S, the passing of this law was stalled in November 2011 by Netanyahu. But the Bill wasn't scrapped and he is still under pressure to implement it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Civil_rights
The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."
"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."
"Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."
"Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service"."
"According to a 2003 University of Haifa study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report […] stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"
The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that:
"According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."
Human Rights Watch has charged that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children: "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."[185]
According to the Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[186]
Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its budget for healthcare facility development.[186]
In March 2010, a report released by several Israeli civil rights groups stated that the current Knesset was "the most racist in Israeli history" with 21 bills proposed in 2008 and 2009 that would discriminate against the country's Arab minority.[187]
A preliminary report commissioned by Israel’s Courts Administration and the Israel Bar Association found in 2011 that Israeli Arabs are more likely than Israeli Jews to be convicted of crimes after being charged, more likely to be given custodial sentences, and were given longer sentences. It did not account for "mitigating or aggravating circumstances, prior criminal record and the convict’s gender"
I wish Iran had a neutron bomb, for once it could go off
I wish Israel was a sacrifice and didn't still live on
So because, like most other people in the World, I oppose Israel's crimes, that means I want to see them nuked?
Like I said above; only in America could people be so brainwashed as to routinely spout such crap.
Most rational people in the World were opposed to South African Apartheid. I suppose in your peculiar little World that means those people wanted to see South Africa nuked?
You pathetic little troll.
As for this thread, let me guess; you want the band to just 'shut the fuck up' and play in that racist Apartheid state, and you want the fans who oppose such a thing to also 'shut the fuck up'?
You really don't know much about this band, or it's fans, do you pal?