"We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." -- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!" -- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat." -- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." -- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." -- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." -- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." -- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." -- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization." -- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it. Former Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, on Dec. 17, 1982
"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion
"The Jewish State cannot exist without a special ideological content. We cannot exist for long like any other state whose main interests is to insure the welfare of its citizens." Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times, 14 July 1992
Let them come and spin all they like. I'll just keep educating them and correcting their revisionist history. Here's another one for you all to chew on:
Sure, that photoshopped picture you posted from a blog is such a formidable piece of trustworthy evidence in your support of Israel's race war.
I suggest you try harder than that. (And in the meantime, can you provide a link to that source? IDF.com?)
Byrnzie,You are letting your rascist anti Semitic true colors show.You obviously support those who engage in terror against innocent people and therefore are part of what's wrong not right with what we deal with in the world today.I respect your opinion,but couldn't disagree with your ideology more.You are starting to sound angry and bitter.
Nope not Apartheid. This woman was evicted from her home and she is being taunted, by these non Apartheid equality loving...well no name for what they are.
I am not making any statement that is pro-Israeli here, since I'm not pro-Israeli in any way, shape or for (nor am I pro-Palestinian. I'm anti both of them). But as someone who is wary of random photos that are contextualized for propaganda purposes, I wanted to post this quote that I found regarding this photo. Note that it was one of the guys in the photo who said this (but I will say that his explanation is a lot closer to what I thought it looked like when I first saw the photo):
"This is false propaganda. This is a case of a good photographer who documented our faces, mostly mine, at the right second. As we sang and celebrated in Sheikh Jarrah, the Arab woman came out of a house, banging on a pan, and tried to disturb our celebrations, so we raised our voices and sang louder as she came nearer. We did not yell at her or mock her. We simply tried to keep on celebrating and she tried to disturb us. The picture does not show several other women who banged on pots and tried to interfere with our celebrations."
Also, as reported in Arutz Sheva at the time, FlagDance marchers in 2010 received specific instructions to avoid confrontations with Arabs. Rabbi Yaakov Meidan, head of the Har Etzion Hesder Yeshiva, wrote an article for youth before the celebrations on avoiding incidents in the Hebrew Makor Rishon newspaper.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Johnniebeblue: Your infographic seems to be leading you down the road of ‘a land without a people for a people without a land’….or ‘the Palestinian people don’t exist’….You can’t simply sweep the people of this region, and the treatment of them by Israel, under the rug…nor try to portray Israel as a defender of Arab rights….pretty sickening approach to this topic; even amongst Israelis supporters, this stance is usually reserved for only the most radical of ethnic nationalists, and supporters of ethnic cleansing. Regardless of which colonialist power occupied the land prior to the partition plan, regardless of who occupied what after the 1967 war, regardless of the rights afforded to the select few Arabs who are able/want to obtain Israeli citizenship, the facts remain: Israel was created by the UN community, and they now tell us that the UN has no sway in the occupation, and hide behind US vetoes from the UNSC. ….Israel uses systemic discrimination, strategic land and water theft, economic terrorism, military actions, biblical fairy tales as historical support, radical nationalism, media manipulation, massive funding for foreign lobbies, and a host of other tools to ensure the ethnic demographics of their country. There is no disputing this. So spin history all you want – there is no justification for the treatment of non-jewish peoples in Israel; Palestinian arabs and Bedouins in particular.
Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread. I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.
Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.
Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.
caifan, thanks…. I’ve found forum discussions invaluable in learning about this conflict. It provides an opportunity for the 'other side' to say their piece in an on-going debate. For a long time I was daunted by it’s perceived complexity. I felt it was too difficult to ‘pick a side’. I was recommended a couple of documentaries that changed my mind and sparked my interest in learning more (Occupation 101, and Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land)…sooo….here is a list of documentaries for those interested. All of these films are worth checking out.
5 Broken Cameras – 2012 Academy Award nominee (Best Documentary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K-mGWy9iUg An extraordinary work of both cinematic and political activism, 5 Broken Cameras is a deeply personal, first-hand account of non-violent resistance in Bil'in, a West Bank village threatened by encroaching Israeli settlements. Shot almost entirely by Palestinian farmer Emad Burnat, who bought his first camera in 2005 to record the birth of his youngest son, the footage was later given to Israeli co-director Guy Davidi to edit. Structured around the violent destruction of each one of Burnat's cameras, the filmmakers' collaboration follows one family's evolution over five years of village turmoil. Burnat watches from behind the lens as olive trees are bulldozed, protests intensify, and lives are lost. "I feel like the camera protects me," he says, "but it's an illusion." Occupation 101 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LGogkbjpRw&list=PLD6D247076445907C A thought-provoking and powerful documentary film on the current and historical root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unlike any other film ever produced on the conflict, "Occupation 101" presents a comprehensive analysis of the facts and hidden truths surrounding the never ending controversy and dispels many of its long-perceived myths and misconceptions. The film covers a wide range of topics, which include, the first wave of Jewish immigration from Europe in the 1880's, the 1920 tensions, the 1948 war, the 1967 war, the first Intifada of 1987, the Oslo Peace Process, Settlement expansion, the role of the United States Government, the second Intifada of 2000, the separation barrier and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as well as many heart wrenching testimonials from victims of this tragedy.
Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAN5GjJKAac Provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.
Budrus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axh6qvHCTLA Budrus is an award-winning feature documentary film about a Palestinian community organizer, Ayed Morrar, who unites local Fatah and Hamas members along with Israeli supporters in an unarmed movement to save his village of Budrus from destruction by Israel’s Separation Barrier.
Defamation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yvTHaDYFcc Intent on shaking up the ultimate 'sacred cow' for Jews, Israeli director Yoav Shamir embarks on a provocative - and at times irreverent - quest to answer the question, "What is anti-Semitism today?" Does it remain a dangerous and immediate threat? Or is it a scare tactic used by right-wing Zionists to discredit their critics? Speaking with an array of people from across the political spectrum (including the head of the Anti-Defamation League and its fiercest critic, author Norman Finkelstein) and traveling to places like Auschwitz (alongside Israeli school kids) and Brooklyn (to explore reports of violence against Jews), Shamir discovers the realities of anti-Semitism today. His findings are shocking, enlightening and - surprisingly - often wryly funny.
American Radical: the Trials of Norman Finkelstein http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-QiH0O8-Qg Jewish-American Professor Norman Finkelstein vocalizes his criticism of Israeli policy and his views about what he refers to as the "Holocaust industry" in this documentary from filmmakers Nicolas Rossier and David Ridgen. The son of a Holocaust survivor, Finkelstein makes the controversial claim that the state of Israel uses anti-Semitism as a justification for committing war crimes, and that this troubling trend can be traced back to the Jewish state's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The film also takes the time to show how Professor Finkelstein's claims have landed him in the hot spot more than a few times, and resulted in the termination of his position at two prominent universities.
The Zionist Story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLAitMq3zI The Zionist Story, an independent film by Ronen Berelovich, is the story of ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid to produce a demographically Jewish State… "I have recently finished an independent documentary, The Zionist Story, in which I aim to present not just the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but also the core reason for it: the Zionist ideology, its goals (past and present) and its firm grip not only on Israeli society, but also, increasingly, on the perception of Middle East issues in Western democracies. These concepts have already been demonstrated in the excellent 'Occupation 101′ documentary made by Abdallah Omeish and Sufyan Omeish, but in my documentary I approach the subject from the perspective of an Israeli, ex-reserve soldier and someone who has spent his entire life in the shadow of Zionism.
Louis Theroux: The Ultra Zionists
Louis Theroux spends time with a small and very committed subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers. He discovers a group of people who consider it their religious and political obligation to populate some of the most sensitive and disputed areas of the West Bank, especially those with a spiritual significance dating back to the Bible.
Life in Occupied Palestine http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/life_in_occupied_palestine/ Anna Baltzer, a Jewish American, gives her eyewitness perspectives on average citizens living in occupied Palestine. Baltzer spent 5 months in the West Bank working with the International Women's Peace Service. Her presentation highlights how the Israeli government's policies have drastically and negatively affected normal Palestinian life, and how this perspective has been omitted from most news outlets in America. A must-see for anyone interested or curious in Israel/Palestine relations.
Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread. I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.
Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.
Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.
Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread. I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.
Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.
Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.
Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.
Really? With all the posts in this thread, you choose an innocuous little 'thank you' note as a way to discredit opinions as biased? Considering it was directed 'specially to Byrnzie and I, I don't think you can say you meant ALL opinions are biased....but maybe you just didn't explain yourself well Come on woman :P
Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread. I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.
Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.
Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.
Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.
Really? With all the posts in this thread, you choose an innocuous little 'thank you' note as a way to discredit opinions as biased? Considering it was directed 'specially to Byrnzie and I, I don't think you can say you meant ALL opinions are biased....but maybe you just didn't explain yourself well Come on woman :P
No, of course I didn't mean all opinions are biased, hence the term "take it with a grain of salt". In other words, there is a lot of information to pick through in this thread coming from both you and Byrnzie, and you have to admit (I hope) that at least some of it is biased..... although to be honest I was more talking about Byrnzie.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Let them come and spin all they like. I'll just keep educating them and correcting their revisionist history. Here's another one for you all to chew on:
Sure, that photoshopped picture you posted from a blog is such a formidable piece of trustworthy evidence in your support of Israel's race war.
I suggest you try harder than that. (And in the meantime, can you provide a link to that source? IDF.com?)
In the entire Middle East, there are only 1.6 million Arabs who have COMPLETE political and religious freedom. All of them live in one Jewish state.
I already rubbished that assertion above in this same thread. I suggest you read what people post.
Please respond specifically to whatever portion you find untrue in the infographic. Jews have been living in Palestine/Israel for literally thousands of years. To suggest that Jews just moved there with the birth of the Zionist movement is an absolute historical falsehood. There has been a constant Jewish presence in the land for over 2000 years, well documented and supported by historical and archaeological evidence.
And please tell me specifically how my second statement was rubbish? Name one single Middle East country, just ONE, where an Arab has more human rights to practice his religion or live his life as he pleases. How about women's rights? How about gay rights?
I'd venture to say you've never been to Israel and know nothing about the region on the ground. Get a clue and stop spreading hate.
And since you all love quoting Golda Meir so fondly, I leave you with this famous quotation which still rings true to this day:
"“Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
Johnniebeblue: Your infographic seems to be leading you down the road of ‘a land without a people for a people without a land’….or ‘the Palestinian people don’t exist’….You can’t simply sweep the people of this region, and the treatment of them by Israel, under the rug…nor try to portray Israel as a defender of Arab rights….pretty sickening approach to this topic; even amongst Israelis supporters, this stance is usually reserved for only the most radical of ethnic nationalists, and supporters of ethnic cleansing. Regardless of which colonialist power occupied the land prior to the partition plan, regardless of who occupied what after the 1967 war, regardless of the rights afforded to the select few Arabs who are able/want to obtain Israeli citizenship, the facts remain: Israel was created by the UN community, and they now tell us that the UN has no sway in the occupation, and hide behind US vetoes from the UNSC. ….Israel uses systemic discrimination, strategic land and water theft, economic terrorism, military actions, biblical fairy tales as historical support, radical nationalism, media manipulation, massive funding for foreign lobbies, and a host of other tools to ensure the ethnic demographics of their country. There is no disputing this. So spin history all you want – there is no justification for the treatment of non-jewish peoples in Israel; Palestinian arabs and Bedouins in particular.
"You can’t simply sweep the people of this region, and the treatment of them by Israel, under the rug…nor try to portray Israel as a defender of Arab rights….pretty sickening approach to this topic; even amongst Israelis supporters, this stance is usually reserved for only the most radical of ethnic nationalists, and supporters of ethnic cleansing."
I don't mean to suggest that the Palestinian plight is not real. Heck, the Palestinians in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon are truly suffering since those governments won't even allow them to obtain a passport or leave the refugee camps. What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to call it apartheid. Apartheid is a system of RACIAL segregation. The situation in Israel has NOTHING to do with race. There is an Arab supreme court justice. There are Arab members of the Knesset (parliament). As another person pointed out, the winner of the Ms. Israel pageant was an Arab woman. Clearly, the problem is not specifically with Arabs. The problem is with a group of people who would rather see Israel destroyed than to live peacefully beside them.
"Regardless of which colonialist power occupied the land prior to the partition plan, regardless of who occupied what after the 1967 war, regardless of the rights afforded to the select few Arabs who are able/want to obtain Israeli citizenship, the facts remain: Israel was created by the UN community, and they now tell us that the UN has no sway in the occupation, and hide behind US vetoes from the UNSC."
No. Just plain no. The UN "creating" Israel did not make it so. Immediately after this declaration, the new country was attacked on all sides by hostile invaders. And they lost. Please name a single country, JUST ONE SINGLE COUNTRY, in the entire HISTORY OF HUMANITY, who fought a defensive war, was victorious, and then was asked to give back the very land that they fought over. Just name ONE! And Israel has already done this in the name of peace, over and over again. What do they have to show for all of the land they have already given back? The Sinai Desert, the Gaza Strip, large areas of the West Bank. All for what?
Israel uses systemic discrimination, strategic land and water theft, economic terrorism, military actions, biblical fairy tales as historical support, radical nationalism, media manipulation, massive funding for foreign lobbies, and a host of other tools to ensure the ethnic demographics of their country. There is no disputing this. So spin history all you want – there is no justification for the treatment of non-jewish peoples in Israel; Palestinian arabs and Bedouins in particular.
Land theft? Please see my last comment. Water theft? Who are they stealing water from? Jordan? Media Manipulation and massive funding? Be careful, your Jewish stereotypes are starting to leak out. And the treatment of non-Jews? I doubt you've even been there, but the non-Jews I know living in Israel don't seem to notice.
You know so little about what you write about. Just give it a rest.
No, of course I didn't mean all opinions are biased, hence the term "take it with a grain of salt". In other words, there is a lot of information to pick through in this thread coming from both you and Byrnzie, and you have to admit (I hope) that at least some of it is biased..... although to be honest I was more talking about Byrnzie.
Well…..I would submit that all opinions, by nature, are biased. The grain of salt comes in making a personal determination of the facts drawn from those opinions. My point was that caifan is probably capable of doing so and didn't need to be reminded. I absolutely admit to bias…..My bias doesn’t prevent me from being open to hearing the other side out. I just haven’t seen much of anything that can sway me from my positions. The Israeli’s hold all the cards here. There is virtually nothing the Palestinians can do to bring about peace right now, aside from submitting to Israeli will.
No, of course I didn't mean all opinions are biased, hence the term "take it with a grain of salt". In other words, there is a lot of information to pick through in this thread coming from both you and Byrnzie, and you have to admit (I hope) that at least some of it is biased..... although to be honest I was more talking about Byrnzie.
Well…..I would submit that all opinions, by nature, are biased. The grain of salt comes in making a personal determination of the facts drawn from those opinions. My point was that caifan is probably capable of doing so and didn't need to be reminded. I absolutely admit to bias…..My bias doesn’t prevent me from being open to hearing the other side out. I just haven’t seen much of anything that can sway me from my positions. The Israeli’s hold all the cards here. There is virtually nothing the Palestinians can do to bring about peace right now, aside from submitting to Israeli will.
Alright, what I meant was that I didn't mean that all supposed "facts" in this thread aren't necessarily biased (but a lot are). I did not say what I did to suggest that Caifan isn't capable of it - I was just having a conversation. I'm sure you've mentioned that news-based fact is biased in front of someone who you don't consider to be an idiot in your life as well. Also wasn't meaning to say it only to him - I was making a point about the thread as a whole.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't mean to suggest that the Palestinian plight is not real. Heck, the Palestinians in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon are truly suffering since those governments won't even allow them to obtain a passport or leave the refugee camps. What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to call it apartheid. Apartheid is a system of RACIAL segregation. The situation in Israel has NOTHING to do with race. There is an Arab supreme court justice. There are Arab members of the Knesset (parliament). As another person pointed out, the winner of the Ms. Israel pageant was an Arab woman. Clearly, the problem is not specifically with Arabs. The problem is with a group of people who would rather see Israel destroyed than to live peacefully beside them.
Which group of people would that be? You think a pageant winner and a couple politicians is proof of equal rights? Tell me this: what percentage of arabs under Israeli occupation have the right to vote in Israeli elections – the country that 100% determines their fate? If they’re lucky they get to vote on which Palestinian party represents them in begging for funding and concessions from Israel….put the wrong party in power (Hamas), and be labelled terrorists and face violent reprisals and crippling economic sanctions as in Gaza. But hey, there are some hot Arabs out there, so all is good in eretz Israel. And Soundgarden and Neil Young are playing there, so all is good in eretz Israel.
Apartheid is defined as discrimination or segregation by race OR CASTE. In other words, it is not a narrowly defined word that makes South African apartheid the barometer for discrimination. Despite the fact that Israel would prefer to define it this way so that they can try to point out dissimilarities, the point is: systemic, institutionalized discrimination and segregation is government policy in Israel. The Israeli government won’t give the majority of Palestinians passports or let them travel freely, so what does it prove to say the country in which they are refugees will not grant them the same? This is no different anywhere in the world. The difference being, most Palestinians cannot get citizenship and equal rights in the land their families lived on for generations.
No. Just plain no. The UN "creating" Israel did not make it so. Immediately after this declaration, the new country was attacked on all sides by hostile invaders. And they lost. Please name a single country, JUST ONE SINGLE COUNTRY, in the entire HISTORY OF HUMANITY, who fought a defensive war, was victorious, and then was asked to give back the very land that they fought over. Just name ONE! And Israel has already done this in the name of peace, over and over again. What do they have to show for all of the land they have already given back? The Sinai Desert, the Gaza Strip, large areas of the West Bank. All for what?
How do you gain land in a defensive war? And then claim to be exceptional because they only decided to keep some of it….? ….lol Byrnzie addressed the partition and the war on the previous page; only two up from the bottom. There was no intent to honour the partition, and the surrounding Arab nations, those directly affected by it, did not vote in support of the partition plan – because it was outrageously weighted to Jews over Arabs per capita….Israel was forced upon them by the west. So what did you expect? I always hear the same questions in regards to the creation of Israel: why were the Jews given land in the middle east if it was in response to the holocaust inflicted upon them by Germany? Why weren’t they given land in Germany? Which tells me just how misinformed the general public is in regards to how and why Israel was created. It wasn’t to form a defensible state so that ‘never again’ would another holocaust occur (the generally held belief). The Zionist movement, and negotiations for a homeland on Palestinian soil began well before WW2 (see the Balfour Declaration Idris mentioned earlier in the thread). And no one has stated that Jews showed up in Palestine in the late 1800’s….we have stated repeatedly that Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace prior to the arrival of the Zionists, using biblical fantasies as an excuse for land grabs and ethnic cleansing.
Land theft? Please see my last comment. Water theft? Who are they stealing water from? Jordan? Media Manipulation and massive funding? Be careful, your Jewish stereotypes are starting to leak out. And the treatment of non-Jews? I doubt you've even been there, but the non-Jews I know living in Israel don't seem to notice.
Jewish stereotypes? You deny that there is an immensely funded international political lobby promoting Israeli policies? You deny that there is such a thing as media manipulation? I didn’t say anything to infer that ONLY Jews partake in such behaviour. It is a typical political tactic, employed by all governments and lobby groups. So stop trying to pull the persecution card, and paint me as an anti-semite. People can see thru this shit; you’re not fooling anyone, and only detracting from your position by making it personal.
Obviously if you think Israel is entitled to all of the land it occupies, and that Palestinians don’t exist as a people, there is no use discussing theft of Palestinian land and water with you. But I’ll throw this out there:
You know so little about what you write about. Just give it a rest.
Again with the ad hominems….can anyone in this thread address my points without attacking me personally? Sensing a pattern here. Discredit the source because your argument is weak. Typical. Anti-semite anti-semite….meanwhile, I'm object to injustices inflicted upon semetic peoples.
And since you all love quoting Golda Meir so fondly, I leave you with this famous quotation which still rings true to this day:
"“Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
The fact that you accept this as true tells me about all I need to know. Go back to page 5 or so of this thread, and have a look at the hate Israeli children have been taught. Palestinians do not have a monopoly on hate and extremism...You infer that I’m an anti-semite, and try to paint me as stereotyping an entire ethnic group, then you post bullshit blanket statements like this and comment that it still rings true? Laughable if not so sickening.
Alright, what I meant was that I didn't mean that all supposed "facts" in this thread aren't necessarily biased (but a lot are). I did not say what I did to suggest that Caifan isn't capable of it - I was just having a conversation. I'm sure you've mentioned that news-based fact is biased in front of someone who you don't consider to be an idiot in your life as well. Also wasn't meaning to say it only to him - I was making a point about the thread as a whole.
Byrnzie,You are letting your rascist anti Semitic true colors show.You obviously support those who engage in terror against innocent people and therefore are part of what's wrong not right with what we deal with in the world today.I respect your opinion,but couldn't disagree with your ideology more.You are starting to sound angry and bitter.
Racist? Anti-Semitic? That's clever. Am I racist against Michael Neumann, who I've quoted repeatedly in this same thread? He's Jewish. Am I racist against Noam Chomsky? he's Jewish. Am I racist against Norman Finkelstein? He's also Jewish.
Now remind me where I said that I support terrorist attacks against innocent people.
I asked you if you support the occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, and you answered yes. Then you label me a racist?
I'm pretty sure that anybody with one iota of intelligence reading this thread can see perfectly well who the fucking racist is.
Jews have been living in Palestine/Israel for literally thousands of years. To suggest that Jews just moved there with the birth of the Zionist movement is an absolute historical falsehood.
I did nothing of the sort. In fact I said above in this same thread that Jews and Arabs lived peacefully together in Palestine for over a thousand years before the European Zionists moved in.
There has been a constant Jewish presence in the land for over 2000 years, well documented and supported by historical and archaeological evidence.
I didn't say there wasn't. But I've already demonstrated that the archeological evidence is debatable, and that many scholars have actually found that during the time of the supposed great Jewish kingdom, the area was a multi-ethnic, multi-religious place, populated mostly by Caananite communities, and that the Israel of the time of the Exodus only actually lasted for a period of a few decades. And even if it could be shown otherwise, a 2000 year old history does not give anyone rightful claim to land in the present day. The Bible is not an historical book. It's a religious book. And it's not a title-deed granting residency to Jews in the 21st century. If it was, then using that warped logic, the Italians have a rightful claim on England, seeing as they once occupied England for 400 years.
And please tell me specifically how my second statement was rubbish? Name one single Middle East country, just ONE, where an Arab has more human rights to practice his religion or live his life as he pleases. How about women's rights? How about gay rights?
I'd venture to say you've never been to Israel and know nothing about the region on the ground. Get a clue and stop spreading hate.
Your statement was rubbish because Arab citizens of israel are treated as second class citizens, and they face daily discrimination in all walks of life. Which is only to be expected in a 'Jewish State;, run by, and for Jews, who regard themselves as the Chosen Ones, and superior to all others. And I listed over a dozen examples of such discrimination above.
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm
'The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.
Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.' http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html
Clearly Israel could care less about the lives of Palestinian children. And you're asking Pearl Jam to support these murdering racist bastards? Just shows how little respect you have for this band.
Palestinian civilians have been killed by the army with impunity
Chris McGreal The Guardian, Monday 27 June 2005
It was the shooting of Asma Mughayar that swept away any lingering doubts I had about how it is the Israeli army kills so many Palestinian children and civilians.
Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats.
The army said the two were blown up by a Palestinian bomb planted to kill soldiers. The corpses offered a different account. In Rafah's morgue, Asma lay with a single bullet hole through her temple; her 13-year-old brother had a lone shot to his forehead. There were no other injuries, certainly none consistent with a blast.
Confronted with this, the army changed its account and claimed the pair were killed by a Palestinian, though there was persuasive evidence pointing to the Israeli sniper's nest. What the military did not do was ask its soldiers why they gave a false account of the deaths or speak to the children's parents or any other witnesses.
When reporters pressed the issue, the army promised a full investigation, but a few weeks later it was quietly dropped. This has become the norm in a military that appears to value protecting itself from accountability more than living up to its claim to be the "most moral army in the world".
As Tom Hurndall's parents noted yesterday after the conviction of an Israeli sergeant for the manslaughter of their son, the soldier was put on trial only because the British family had the resources to bring pressure to bear. But there has been no justice for the parents of hundreds of Palestinian children killed by Israeli soldiers.
According to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, the army has killed 1,722 Palestinian civilians - more than one-third of them minors - as well as 1,519 combatants, since the intifada began nearly five years ago; the comparable Israeli figures are 658 civilians killed - 17% minors - along with 309 military. The army has investigated just 90 Palestinian deaths, usually under outside pressure. Seven soldiers have been convicted: three for manslaughter, none for murder.
Last month, a military court sentenced a soldier to 20 months in prison for shooting dead a Palestinian man as he adjusted his TV aerial, the longest sentence yet for killing a civilian, and less than Israeli conscientious objectors have got for refusing to serve in the army.
B'Tselem argues that a lack of accountability and rules of engagement that "encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers" have created a "culture of impunity" - a view backed by the New York-based Human Rights Watch, which last week described many army investigations of civilian killings as a "sham ... that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder".
In southern Gaza, the killings take place in a climate that amounts to a form of terror against the population. Random fire into Rafah and Khan Yunis has claimed hundreds of lives, including five children shot as they sat at their school desks. Many others have died when the snipers must have known who was in their sights - children playing football, sitting outside home, walking back from school. Almost always "investigations" amount to asking the soldier who pulled the trigger what happened - often they claim there was a gun battle when there was none - and presenting it as fact.
The military police launched an investigation into the death of Iman al-Hams last October only after soldiers went public about the circumstances in which their commander emptied his gun into the 12-year-old. He was recorded telling his men that the girl should be killed even if she were three.
Colonel Pinhas Zuaretz was commander in southern Gaza two years ago when I asked him about the scale of the killing. The colonel, who rewrote the rules of engagement to permit soldiers to shoot children as young as 14, acknowledged that official versions of several killings were wrong, but justified the tactics as the price of the struggle for survival against a second Holocaust.
Perhaps that view was shared by the soldier who shot dead three 15-year-old boys, Hassan Abu Zeid, Ashraf Mousa and Khaled Ghanem, as they approached the fortified border between Gaza and Egypt in April. The military said the teenagers were weapons smugglers and therefore "terrorists", and that the soldier shot them in the legs and only killed them when they failed to stop.
The account was a fabrication. The teenagers were in a "forbidden zone" but kicking a ball. Their corpses showed no evidence of wounds to disable them, only single high-calibre shots to the head or back. The army quietly admitted as much - but there would be no investigation.
"Apartheid is defined as discrimination or segregation by race OR CASTE. In other words, it is not a narrowly defined word that makes South African apartheid the barometer for discrimination. Despite the fact that Israel would prefer to define it this way so that they can try to point out dissimilarities, the point is: systemic, institutionalized discrimination and segregation is government policy in Israel."
Caste? The Palestinians aren't descriminated against because they belong to a race, a people, or a caste as you put it. They are excluded from Israeli land and politics because they AREN'T CITIZENS. That's not racism or discrimination. That's the reality. Do we allow mexicans who can trace their heritage to Texas voting rights in the US? Do we allow them the "right of return"? You want REAL apartheid?? How about what the Sunni and Shiite Muslims do to each other? Or how about Christians and Jews are treated in the rest of the middle east? Where is your outrage?
And to Byrnzie, you can quote case after case after case from reputable sources (sarcasm there if you don't get that) like the electronic intifada. Do you think that throwing a rock is harmless? Do you think Israel should respond by throwing rocks back? Please educate yourself and follow-up on the news stories that you posted above. There is always more to the story, and the propaganda runs deep on both sides, but apparently you guys think only the Jews control the media, so you need to get the "truth" out there.
Yeah...this looks like a harmless little "child":
You like to post videos, so how about watching one from the other side:
And you think Golda Meir's quote about the Palestinians hating the Israelis more than they love their own children is inaccurate? It doesn't take much digging to see how the Palestinian culture glorifies violence and indoctrinates their children to hate from their youngest years and even rejoices if they are killed as "martyrs":
This picture was posted on the Fatah Facebook page together with an imaginary conversation between the son who is being sent to his death and the mother encouraging it. "Why me and not you?" the child innocently asks his mother, who answers that she will continue to have more children "for the sake of Palestine":
How about a children's puppet show, with an anti-smoking message? It's OK kids, just replace your cigarettes with guns!
I could literally go on forever but I doubt you'll even read this far.
I've honestly had enough of this conversation. I love PJ, I love coming to this website and reading your shit and skewed views on the world makes me want to vomit.
Don't forget that a large percentage of Palestinians support the efforts of Hezbollah. A well known terrorist organization that is very instrumental in the Palestinian cause. And is also currently very involved.in Syria helping Assad kill his own people.
Don't forget that a large percentage of Palestinians support the efforts of Hezbollah. A well known terrorist organization that is very instrumental in the Palestinian cause. And is also currently very involved.in Syria helping Assad kill his own people.
Don't forget that Hezbollah was established as a defense force against U.S and Israeli aggression in Lebanon.
And talking of terrorism, how would you describe the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians by Israel that I documented above? Shooting unarmed, white flag waving women? Shooting schoolchidren? Shelling densely populated residential areas? Bulldozing homes with the occupants still inside? Dropping white phosphorous on residential areas? Bombing schools, police barracks, hospitals, and U.N Safe Houses? Shooting at medical personnel, and ambulances? Saturating South Lebanon with up to 4.6 million cluster submunitions during the 2006 war. - a war crime that constituted a deliberate targeting of civilians.
If you wanna start comparing acts of terrorism between the Palestinians and Israeli's then I suggest you think again.
"The Palestinians aren't descriminated against because they belong to a race, a people, or a caste as you put it. They are excluded from Israeli land and politics because they AREN'T CITIZENS. That's not racism or discrimination.
Yes it is. It's racism in the case of Israel. It's racism when the terms of citizenship dictate that you need to belong to a particular ethnic group. It's called ethnic nationalsim, and it's racist and discriminatory.
And to Byrnzie, you can quote case after case after case from reputable sources (sarcasm there if you don't get that) like the electronic intifada. Do you think that throwing a rock is harmless? Do you think Israel should respond by throwing rocks back?
And you think that 10 year olds throwing rocks at soldiers and tanks should be shot in the head with high-powered rifles? I suppose firing rubber bullets and/or tear gas at them doesn't give the IDF soldiers enough satisfaction.
And you think Golda Meir's quote about the Palestinians hating the Israelis more than they love their own children is inaccurate? It doesn't take much digging to see how the Palestinian culture glorifies violence and indoctrinates their children to hate from their youngest years and even rejoices if they are killed as "martyrs":
I posted a list of videos and links above detailing how the Israeli's teach their children to hate and kill Arabs. It was pretty sickening.
Here's a question for you: Do you support the illegal Israeli occupation and ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land? Yes, or no?
I've honestly had enough of this conversation. I love PJ, I love coming to this website and reading your shit and skewed views on the world makes me want to vomit.
Byrnzie you like asking that question.The big problem is you should be asking multiple questions and therefore receiving multiple answers.Those of us that don't support terrorism have already told you as much.You also ask this question as fact,which it is not. You have a knack for skipping right over the sickening actions of the terror loving society and groups you are supporting.Multiple people have commented and you just answer with a question. Would you strap bombs to a 7year old for the advancement of your Palestinian agenda? Do you support terrorist actions against civilians ,settlers,non military targets? Its a yes or no answer
Byrnzie you like asking that question.The big problem is you should be asking multiple questions and therefore receiving multiple answers.Those of us that don't support terrorism have already told you as much.You also ask this question as fact,which it is not.
Except you do support terrorism. You support Israeli terrorism. I asked you if you support the occupation, and you answered 'yes'. The occupation has been described by Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, and the U.N, as a crime against humanity. And Israel has repeatedly committed war crimes during it's 45 year ethnic cleansing and land-grab. As for ethnic cleansing, it is a fact, and only somebody completely averse to the truth could say otherwise. I already posted detailed comments by Israeli historians, political and military leaders, testifying that ethnic cleansing has taken place, and continues to take place. Why are you denying it?
'The Final Report of the Commission of Experts established pursuant to Security Council Resolution 780 defined ethnic cleansing as "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas."
'The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."
Now tell me how that doesn't apply to the Occupied Palestinian Territories?
You have a knack for skipping right over the sickening actions of the terror loving society and groups you are supporting.Multiple people have commented and you just answer with a question. Would you strap bombs to a 7year old for the advancement of your Palestinian agenda? Do you support terrorist actions against civilians ,settlers,non military targets? Its a yes or no answer
Palestinian terror attacks are not the cause of Israel's occupation and ongoing land grab. They're a symptom of it.
In the words of Michael Neumann (a Jewish historian):
'Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do.'
Don't forget that a large percentage of Palestinians support the efforts of Hezbollah. A well known terrorist organization that is very instrumental in the Palestinian cause. And is also currently very involved.in Syria helping Assad kill his own people.
Don't forget that Hezbollah was established as a defense force against U.S and Israeli aggression in Lebanon.
And talking of terrorism, how would you describe the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians by Israel that I documented above? Shooting unarmed, white flag waving women? Shooting schoolchidren? Shelling densely populated residential areas? Bulldozing homes with the occupants still inside? Dropping white phosphorous on residential areas? Bombing schools, police barracks, hospitals, and U.N Safe Houses? Shooting at medical personnel, and ambulances? Saturating South Lebanon with up to 4.6 million cluster submunitions during the 2006 war. - a war crime that constituted a deliberate targeting of civilians.
If you wanna start comparing acts of terrorism between the Palestinians and Israeli's then I suggest you think again.
This exchange tells you all you need to know about Byrnzie. The governments of the U.S, Netherlands, France, Gulf Cooperation Council, U.K., Australia, Canada, and the European Union all classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I cannot wait for PJ to play in Israel, not because they give a shit about your insane notions and twisted reality, but because they care about the music and they care about the fans. I will be flying in for the show, will return to this thread, and post a nice smiling picture for you
Comments
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
Former Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, on Dec. 17, 1982
"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."
First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion
"The Jewish State cannot exist without a special ideological content. We cannot exist for long like any other state whose main interests is to insure the welfare of its citizens." Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times, 14 July 1992
I suggest you try harder than that. (And in the meantime, can you provide a link to that source? IDF.com?) I already rubbished that assertion above in this same thread. I suggest you read what people post.
"This is false propaganda. This is a case of a good photographer who documented our faces, mostly mine, at the right second. As we sang and celebrated in Sheikh Jarrah, the Arab woman came out of a house, banging on a pan, and tried to disturb our celebrations, so we raised our voices and sang louder as she came nearer. We did not yell at her or mock her. We simply tried to keep on celebrating and she tried to disturb us. The picture does not show several other women who banged on pots and tried to interfere with our celebrations."
Also, as reported in Arutz Sheva at the time, FlagDance marchers in 2010 received specific instructions to avoid confrontations with Arabs. Rabbi Yaakov Meidan, head of the Har Etzion Hesder Yeshiva, wrote an article for youth before the celebrations on avoiding incidents in the Hebrew Makor Rishon newspaper.
Regardless of which colonialist power occupied the land prior to the partition plan, regardless of who occupied what after the 1967 war, regardless of the rights afforded to the select few Arabs who are able/want to obtain Israeli citizenship, the facts remain: Israel was created by the UN community, and they now tell us that the UN has no sway in the occupation, and hide behind US vetoes from the UNSC. ….Israel uses systemic discrimination, strategic land and water theft, economic terrorism, military actions, biblical fairy tales as historical support, radical nationalism, media manipulation, massive funding for foreign lobbies, and a host of other tools to ensure the ethnic demographics of their country. There is no disputing this. So spin history all you want – there is no justification for the treatment of non-jewish peoples in Israel; Palestinian arabs and Bedouins in particular.
caifan, thanks…. I’ve found forum discussions invaluable in learning about this conflict. It provides an opportunity for the 'other side' to say their piece in an on-going debate. For a long time I was daunted by it’s perceived complexity. I felt it was too difficult to ‘pick a side’. I was recommended a couple of documentaries that changed my mind and sparked my interest in learning more (Occupation 101, and Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land)…sooo….here is a list of documentaries for those interested. All of these films are worth checking out.
5 Broken Cameras – 2012 Academy Award nominee (Best Documentary)
An extraordinary work of both cinematic and political activism, 5 Broken Cameras is a deeply personal, first-hand account of non-violent resistance in Bil'in, a West Bank village threatened by encroaching Israeli settlements. Shot almost entirely by Palestinian farmer Emad Burnat, who bought his first camera in 2005 to record the birth of his youngest son, the footage was later given to Israeli co-director Guy Davidi to edit. Structured around the violent destruction of each one of Burnat's cameras, the filmmakers' collaboration follows one family's evolution over five years of village turmoil. Burnat watches from behind the lens as olive trees are bulldozed, protests intensify, and lives are lost. "I feel like the camera protects me," he says, "but it's an illusion."
Occupation 101
A thought-provoking and powerful documentary film on the current and historical root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unlike any other film ever produced on the conflict, "Occupation 101" presents a comprehensive analysis of the facts and hidden truths surrounding the never ending controversy and dispels many of its long-perceived myths and misconceptions.
The film covers a wide range of topics, which include, the first wave of Jewish immigration from Europe in the 1880's, the 1920 tensions, the 1948 war, the 1967 war, the first Intifada of 1987, the Oslo Peace Process, Settlement expansion, the role of the United States Government, the second Intifada of 2000, the separation barrier and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as well as many heart wrenching testimonials from victims of this tragedy.
Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land
Provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.
Budrus
Budrus is an award-winning feature documentary film about a Palestinian community organizer, Ayed Morrar, who unites local Fatah and Hamas members along with Israeli supporters in an unarmed movement to save his village of Budrus from destruction by Israel’s Separation Barrier.
Defamation
Intent on shaking up the ultimate 'sacred cow' for Jews, Israeli director Yoav Shamir embarks on a provocative - and at times irreverent - quest to answer the question, "What is anti-Semitism today?" Does it remain a dangerous and immediate threat? Or is it a scare tactic used by right-wing Zionists to discredit their critics? Speaking with an array of people from across the political spectrum (including the head of the Anti-Defamation League and its fiercest critic, author Norman Finkelstein) and traveling to places like Auschwitz (alongside Israeli school kids) and Brooklyn (to explore reports of violence against Jews), Shamir discovers the realities of anti-Semitism today. His findings are shocking, enlightening and - surprisingly - often wryly funny.
American Radical: the Trials of Norman Finkelstein
Jewish-American Professor Norman Finkelstein vocalizes his criticism of Israeli policy and his views about what he refers to as the "Holocaust industry" in this documentary from filmmakers Nicolas Rossier and David Ridgen. The son of a Holocaust survivor, Finkelstein makes the controversial claim that the state of Israel uses anti-Semitism as a justification for committing war crimes, and that this troubling trend can be traced back to the Jewish state's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The film also takes the time to show how Professor Finkelstein's claims have landed him in the hot spot more than a few times, and resulted in the termination of his position at two prominent universities.
The Zionist Story
The Zionist Story, an independent film by Ronen Berelovich, is the story of ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid to produce a demographically Jewish State…
"I have recently finished an independent documentary, The Zionist Story, in which I aim to present not just the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but also the core reason for it: the Zionist ideology, its goals (past and present) and its firm grip not only on Israeli society, but also, increasingly, on the perception of Middle East issues in Western democracies. These concepts have already been demonstrated in the excellent 'Occupation 101′ documentary made by Abdallah Omeish and Sufyan Omeish, but in my documentary I approach the subject from the perspective of an Israeli, ex-reserve soldier and someone who has spent his entire life in the shadow of Zionism.
Louis Theroux: The Ultra Zionists
Louis Theroux spends time with a small and very committed subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers. He discovers a group of people who consider it their religious and political obligation to populate some of the most sensitive and disputed areas of the West Bank, especially those with a spiritual significance dating back to the Bible.
Life in Occupied Palestine
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/life_in_occupied_palestine/
Anna Baltzer, a Jewish American, gives her eyewitness perspectives on average citizens living in occupied Palestine. Baltzer spent 5 months in the West Bank working with the International Women's Peace Service. Her presentation highlights how the Israeli government's policies have drastically and negatively affected normal Palestinian life, and how this perspective has been omitted from most news outlets in America. A must-see for anyone interested or curious in Israel/Palestine relations.
:P
This woman was evicted from her home because she was squatting in a home owned by someone else! Do a bit of research before posting more propaganda.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/158039#.UxDsXeNdWxo
And please tell me specifically how my second statement was rubbish? Name one single Middle East country, just ONE, where an Arab has more human rights to practice his religion or live his life as he pleases. How about women's rights? How about gay rights?
I'd venture to say you've never been to Israel and know nothing about the region on the ground. Get a clue and stop spreading hate.
And since you all love quoting Golda Meir so fondly, I leave you with this famous quotation which still rings true to this day:
"“Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
You know so little about what you write about. Just give it a rest.
You think a pageant winner and a couple politicians is proof of equal rights? Tell me this: what percentage of arabs under Israeli occupation have the right to vote in Israeli elections – the country that 100% determines their fate? If they’re lucky they get to vote on which Palestinian party represents them in begging for funding and concessions from Israel….put the wrong party in power (Hamas), and be labelled terrorists and face violent reprisals and crippling economic sanctions as in Gaza. But hey, there are some hot Arabs out there, so all is good in eretz Israel. And Soundgarden and Neil Young are playing there, so all is good in eretz Israel.
Apartheid is defined as discrimination or segregation by race OR CASTE. In other words, it is not a narrowly defined word that makes South African apartheid the barometer for discrimination. Despite the fact that Israel would prefer to define it this way so that they can try to point out dissimilarities, the point is: systemic, institutionalized discrimination and segregation is government policy in Israel.
The Israeli government won’t give the majority of Palestinians passports or let them travel freely, so what does it prove to say the country in which they are refugees will not grant them the same? This is no different anywhere in the world. The difference being, most Palestinians cannot get citizenship and equal rights in the land their families lived on for generations. How do you gain land in a defensive war? And then claim to be exceptional because they only decided to keep some of it….? ….lol
Byrnzie addressed the partition and the war on the previous page; only two up from the bottom. There was no intent to honour the partition, and the surrounding Arab nations, those directly affected by it, did not vote in support of the partition plan – because it was outrageously weighted to Jews over Arabs per capita….Israel was forced upon them by the west. So what did you expect? I always hear the same questions in regards to the creation of Israel: why were the Jews given land in the middle east if it was in response to the holocaust inflicted upon them by Germany? Why weren’t they given land in Germany?
Which tells me just how misinformed the general public is in regards to how and why Israel was created. It wasn’t to form a defensible state so that ‘never again’ would another holocaust occur (the generally held belief). The Zionist movement, and negotiations for a homeland on Palestinian soil began well before WW2 (see the Balfour Declaration Idris mentioned earlier in the thread). And no one has stated that Jews showed up in Palestine in the late 1800’s….we have stated repeatedly that Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace prior to the arrival of the Zionists, using biblical fantasies as an excuse for land grabs and ethnic cleansing. Jewish stereotypes? You deny that there is an immensely funded international political lobby promoting Israeli policies? You deny that there is such a thing as media manipulation? I didn’t say anything to infer that ONLY Jews partake in such behaviour. It is a typical political tactic, employed by all governments and lobby groups. So stop trying to pull the persecution card, and paint me as an anti-semite. People can see thru this shit; you’re not fooling anyone, and only detracting from your position by making it personal.
Obviously if you think Israel is entitled to all of the land it occupies, and that Palestinians don’t exist as a people, there is no use discussing theft of Palestinian land and water with you.
But I’ll throw this out there:
Now remind me where I said that I support terrorist attacks against innocent people.
I asked you if you support the occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, and you answered yes. Then you label me a racist?
I'm pretty sure that anybody with one iota of intelligence reading this thread can see perfectly well who the fucking racist is.
I didn't say there wasn't. But I've already demonstrated that the archeological evidence is debatable, and that many scholars have actually found that during the time of the supposed great Jewish kingdom, the area was a multi-ethnic, multi-religious place, populated mostly by Caananite communities, and that the Israel of the time of the Exodus only actually lasted for a period of a few decades. And even if it could be shown otherwise, a 2000 year old history does not give anyone rightful claim to land in the present day. The Bible is not an historical book. It's a religious book. And it's not a title-deed granting residency to Jews in the 21st century. If it was, then using that warped logic, the Italians have a rightful claim on England, seeing as they once occupied England for 400 years. Your statement was rubbish because Arab citizens of israel are treated as second class citizens, and they face daily discrimination in all walks of life. Which is only to be expected in a 'Jewish State;, run by, and for Jews, who regard themselves as the Chosen Ones, and superior to all others.
And I listed over a dozen examples of such discrimination above. Which suggests that Arabs don't love their children. A pretty despicable comment really, but not surprising.
And on the subject of children, read on:
One Palestinian child has been killed by Israel every 3 days for the past 13 years
http://www.globalresearch.ca/one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years/5359996
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4580139.stm
Israel says it doesn’t mean to kill Palestinian children, yet they keep on dying
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...539098,00.html
Snipers with children in their sights
Palestinian civilians have been killed by the army with impunity
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/28/comment.israelandthepalestinians
Israeli Army Kills Palestinian Children
http://www.mediamonitors.net/sarah2.html
Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2
Four Palestinian children and their mother were killed in an Israeli attack on the northern Gaza Strip today, officials said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians
'The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.
Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.'
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html
Israel kills some more children
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9356.shtml
IDF troops kill stone-throwing teenager near Hebron
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/948220.html
IDF troops kill 16-year-old stone-thrower in Nablus
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/795734.html
Israeli police kill Palestinian stone throwers
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...rs-699679.html
Invisible killings: Israel’s daily toll of Palestinian children
http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisible-killings-israels-daily-toll-palestinian-children/4263
Clearly Israel could care less about the lives of Palestinian children. And you're asking Pearl Jam to support these murdering racist bastards? Just shows how little respect you have for this band.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/28/comment.israelandthepalestinians
Snipers with children in their sights
Palestinian civilians have been killed by the army with impunity
Chris McGreal
The Guardian, Monday 27 June 2005
It was the shooting of Asma Mughayar that swept away any lingering doubts I had about how it is the Israeli army kills so many Palestinian children and civilians.
Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats.
The army said the two were blown up by a Palestinian bomb planted to kill soldiers. The corpses offered a different account. In Rafah's morgue, Asma lay with a single bullet hole through her temple; her 13-year-old brother had a lone shot to his forehead. There were no other injuries, certainly none consistent with a blast.
Confronted with this, the army changed its account and claimed the pair were killed by a Palestinian, though there was persuasive evidence pointing to the Israeli sniper's nest. What the military did not do was ask its soldiers why they gave a false account of the deaths or speak to the children's parents or any other witnesses.
When reporters pressed the issue, the army promised a full investigation, but a few weeks later it was quietly dropped. This has become the norm in a military that appears to value protecting itself from accountability more than living up to its claim to be the "most moral army in the world".
As Tom Hurndall's parents noted yesterday after the conviction of an Israeli sergeant for the manslaughter of their son, the soldier was put on trial only because the British family had the resources to bring pressure to bear. But there has been no justice for the parents of hundreds of Palestinian children killed by Israeli soldiers.
According to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, the army has killed 1,722 Palestinian civilians - more than one-third of them minors - as well as 1,519 combatants, since the intifada began nearly five years ago; the comparable Israeli figures are 658 civilians killed - 17% minors - along with 309 military. The army has investigated just 90 Palestinian deaths, usually under outside pressure. Seven soldiers have been convicted: three for manslaughter, none for murder.
Last month, a military court sentenced a soldier to 20 months in prison for shooting dead a Palestinian man as he adjusted his TV aerial, the longest sentence yet for killing a civilian, and less than Israeli conscientious objectors have got for refusing to serve in the army.
B'Tselem argues that a lack of accountability and rules of engagement that "encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers" have created a "culture of impunity" - a view backed by the New York-based Human Rights Watch, which last week described many army investigations of civilian killings as a "sham ... that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder".
In southern Gaza, the killings take place in a climate that amounts to a form of terror against the population. Random fire into Rafah and Khan Yunis has claimed hundreds of lives, including five children shot as they sat at their school desks. Many others have died when the snipers must have known who was in their sights - children playing football, sitting outside home, walking back from school. Almost always "investigations" amount to asking the soldier who pulled the trigger what happened - often they claim there was a gun battle when there was none - and presenting it as fact.
The military police launched an investigation into the death of Iman al-Hams last October only after soldiers went public about the circumstances in which their commander emptied his gun into the 12-year-old. He was recorded telling his men that the girl should be killed even if she were three.
Colonel Pinhas Zuaretz was commander in southern Gaza two years ago when I asked him about the scale of the killing. The colonel, who rewrote the rules of engagement to permit soldiers to shoot children as young as 14, acknowledged that official versions of several killings were wrong, but justified the tactics as the price of the struggle for survival against a second Holocaust.
Perhaps that view was shared by the soldier who shot dead three 15-year-old boys, Hassan Abu Zeid, Ashraf Mousa and Khaled Ghanem, as they approached the fortified border between Gaza and Egypt in April. The military said the teenagers were weapons smugglers and therefore "terrorists", and that the soldier shot them in the legs and only killed them when they failed to stop.
The account was a fabrication. The teenagers were in a "forbidden zone" but kicking a ball. Their corpses showed no evidence of wounds to disable them, only single high-calibre shots to the head or back. The army quietly admitted as much - but there would be no investigation.
Caste? The Palestinians aren't descriminated against because they belong to a race, a people, or a caste as you put it. They are excluded from Israeli land and politics because they AREN'T CITIZENS. That's not racism or discrimination. That's the reality. Do we allow mexicans who can trace their heritage to Texas voting rights in the US? Do we allow them the "right of return"? You want REAL apartheid?? How about what the Sunni and Shiite Muslims do to each other? Or how about Christians and Jews are treated in the rest of the middle east? Where is your outrage?
And to Byrnzie, you can quote case after case after case from reputable sources (sarcasm there if you don't get that) like the electronic intifada. Do you think that throwing a rock is harmless? Do you think Israel should respond by throwing rocks back? Please educate yourself and follow-up on the news stories that you posted above. There is always more to the story, and the propaganda runs deep on both sides, but apparently you guys think only the Jews control the media, so you need to get the "truth" out there.
Yeah...this looks like a harmless little "child":
You like to post videos, so how about watching one from the other side:
And you think Golda Meir's quote about the Palestinians hating the Israelis more than they love their own children is inaccurate? It doesn't take much digging to see how the Palestinian culture glorifies violence and indoctrinates their children to hate from their youngest years and even rejoices if they are killed as "martyrs":
This picture was posted on the Fatah Facebook page together with an imaginary conversation between the son who is being sent to his death and the mother encouraging it. "Why me and not you?" the child innocently asks his mother, who answers that she will continue to have more children "for the sake of Palestine":
How about a children's puppet show, with an anti-smoking message? It's OK kids, just replace your cigarettes with guns!
youtu.be/mbaO1ylCFeY
The four-year-old daughter of a female suicide bomber, Reem Riyashi, singing to her dead mother and vowing to follow in her footsteps.
youtu.be/cqHUdwePfbM
A mother telling her grandson how proud that her son (boys father) killed Jews while being Martyred:
youtu.be/OTNADjMc0x0
I could literally go on forever but I doubt you'll even read this far.
I've honestly had enough of this conversation. I love PJ, I love coming to this website and reading your shit and skewed views on the world makes me want to vomit.
And talking of terrorism, how would you describe the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians by Israel that I documented above? Shooting unarmed, white flag waving women? Shooting schoolchidren? Shelling densely populated residential areas? Bulldozing homes with the occupants still inside? Dropping white phosphorous on residential areas? Bombing schools, police barracks, hospitals, and U.N Safe Houses? Shooting at medical personnel, and ambulances? Saturating South Lebanon with up to 4.6 million cluster submunitions during the 2006 war. - a war crime that constituted a deliberate targeting of civilians.
If you wanna start comparing acts of terrorism between the Palestinians and Israeli's then I suggest you think again.
Here's a question for you: Do you support the illegal Israeli occupation and ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their land? Yes, or no? Don't slam the door on your way out.
You have a knack for skipping right over the sickening actions of the terror loving society and groups you are supporting.Multiple people have commented and you just answer with a question.
Would you strap bombs to a 7year old for the advancement of your Palestinian agenda? Do you support terrorist actions against civilians ,settlers,non military targets? Its a yes or no answer
As for ethnic cleansing, it is a fact, and only somebody completely averse to the truth could say otherwise. I already posted detailed comments by Israeli historians, political and military leaders, testifying that ethnic cleansing has taken place, and continues to take place. Why are you denying it?
Here's the definition of ethnic cleansing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing#Definitions
'The Final Report of the Commission of Experts established pursuant to Security Council Resolution 780 defined ethnic cleansing as "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas."
'The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."
Now tell me how that doesn't apply to the Occupied Palestinian Territories?
Palestinian terror attacks are not the cause of Israel's occupation and ongoing land grab. They're a symptom of it.
In the words of Michael Neumann (a Jewish historian):
'Israel has a right of self defence, but it does not apply in the Occupied Territories. If the U.S invaded Jamaica and dotted it with settlements, neither the settlers nor the armed forces could invoke any right to defend themselves against the Jamaicans, any more than a robber who invaded your house. So it is with the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories. Their right of self-defense is their right to the least violent defensive alternative. Since withdrawal (perhaps followed by fortifying their own 1948 border) is by far their best and least violent defense, that is all they have a right to do.'