I'm surprised to see so many here who believe Pearl Jam is not a political/socially conscientious entity. Yes, a band first, but one in which being outspoken on environmental and social issues plays a large part. So are we talking about the same group? You know, the Ed, Mike, Stone, Jeff, Matt (and Boom too) group that originated in Seattle?
Playing Israel is a choice the band will or will not make but you can be sure if they do so they will have their reasons and will state them... which is what many of us are waiting for Neil Young (and you know I'm a big Neil Young fan) to do. If you play, say why.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Good Morning all ! CM-lots of stuff in there.Some I can't argue with and may even agree with on some level,But your first big issue is closing your mind to Florida.You missing out on a special way of life.Texas and Zona are quite nice also.Dont be afraid of the sun.Its healthy for you.I assume you are in the upper midwest(Illinios,Wis,Mn)We here in the sunbelt just choose to live in a state that skips the shitty seasons.It may open your mind!On airport security,don't you think some of your Palestinian friends have contributed to your removal of belt and shoes????????? Come on.
I've been to Florida numerous times. You're right, it is beautiful. So are AZ & TX. I hear Israel is nice as well. It's not the weather or the landscapes I take issue with. It's 'stand your ground'. It's neglecting to educate your citizens, but high schools that have million dollar football stadiums. It's Sheriff Arpaio treating minorities like second class citizens to support a profitable private prison industry that helped write "three-strike" and "truth-in-sentencing" laws that drive up prison populations.
9/11 Hijackers: 15 citizens of Saudi Arabia. The others were from the UAE (2), Egypt and Lebanon. Shoe bomber: Born and raised in England, trained in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Underwear Bomber: Born in Nigeria, Lived in London/Dubai/Yemen.
So no, I don't think Palestinians had anything to do with our airport security. I also don't believe they attacked us 'because they hate us for our freedoms'. I believe they were motivated by America's continued meddling in Middle East affairs.
So CM189191 , who did you vote for the last 2 elections?
You'll note the title of this thread isn't "Pearl Jam, play CM's apartment". Why make this about me? I didn't tear down the wall to my neighbor's unit, lock him is his bedroom, blow up his kitchen, erect settlements his living room, take a dump in his toilet and pretend my shit don't stink.
Why does it seem some want it ignore history and make up their own convenient history? Again, just to point out, you still completely point the finger at Israel and take no responsibility of the Palastinians and how this situation got here. I'm just going to nod my head, say you are 100% correct. Your ability to bring up the "real" truth has completely made me pick a side. Palistine! Palistine!... Pearl Jam shouldn't play in Israel... They should play in Palistine! Those poor Palistenians that ain't never done nothing wrong. This is an outrage! I'm calling it, kangaroo court! Malarkey, enough of this tom foolery! Thanks, your constant strong points (many of which are highly questionable, and seem to ignore any historical truth) have persuaded me. Thanks!
Own convenient history? What are you on about? What's questionable?
Israel bombing targets and blaming it on others? Israel taking more land? building more settlements?
Over the top Palestinian supporters such as yourself really do not make your cause look good at all. You have a good one, done with this thread.
Tell me what I've stated that is untrue?...
I don't condone the religious fanatics on the Palestinian side, but I'm not so blind as to not clearly be able to cite/see that Israeli actions throughout it's history is/as the major contributing factor.
When Israel stops taking more land, stops building settlements, and returns what needs to be returned, if at that point Palestinians are still violent, I'll side with the Israelis.
So CM189191 , who did you vote for the last 2 elections?
You'll note the title of this thread isn't "Pearl Jam, play CM's apartment". Why make this about me? I didn't tear down the wall to my neighbor's unit, lock him is his bedroom, blow up his kitchen, erect settlements his living room, take a dump in his toilet and pretend my shit don't stink.
I was just curious, I mean you did say "I vote with my voice, my dollars and at the ballot box", so I wanted to know where that voice landed the last two elections, I understand this thread is not about you, but you did make an entire post/reply about working for whatever company, working with non profit this/that etc and then talk about places you visited and your feelings about other issues.
I did not just randomly ask you who you voted for, I got curious after a couple of posts about yourself.
Idris, I'm sorry I'm trying to stay away from this thread but this "if at that point Palestinians are still violent, I'll side with the Israelis." It started because of their violence. It's really not that hard to check history and look at what happened after Israel was founded. The only difference is the battle cry and reasons have changed. The Middle East has never been peaceful for those that are not Muslim. Sorry but it's true. Do you honestly think that if Israel pulled off the West Bank and Gaza all will be righteous in the Middle East? C'mon now...
Not sure how people can take sides, but okay. IMO, Isreal and Palestine are both totally fucked up and both totally wrong. Neither side is better or worse than the other. Neither side has been willing to budge for the exact same reasons, and given those reasons, I don't see how either side has allowed any possible room for compromise. I don't think PJ should set foot there until both sides can stop being a bigoted bunch of hypocrites and settle things equitably. I also think "the west" shpuld get their noses right out of it and let these a-holes sort it out between themselves, for better or worse. Of course I mean all that on the political level, not personal. And of course what i think ought to be won't be, especially since the US in particular is incapable of butting put of anything when it comes to any place that has anything to do with how much money rich people can make.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Peace talks between Israel and Palestine have sporadically occurred for almost fifty years- longer than many of you have been alive- and yet peace seems as far from happening as ever. If I'm correct, the last hopeful events there happened in July of last year (if I recall, something about the Hamas nixing Kerry's plan) but that fell apart. The same can be seen here in these forums- the same arguments and nobody giving an inch to either side. This seems the the epitome of futility. I wish someone would please suggest at least some remotely possible peaceful resolution to this situation. The world has sat at the brink of chaos over this all these years. Is it really hopeless?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Idris, I'm sorry I'm trying to stay away from this thread but this "if at that point Palestinians are still violent, I'll side with the Israelis." It started because of their violence. It's really not that hard to check history and look at what happened after Israel was founded. The only difference is the battle cry and reasons have changed. The Middle East has never been peaceful for those that are not Muslim. Sorry but it's true. Do you honestly think that if Israel pulled off the West Bank and Gaza all will be righteous in the Middle East? C'mon now...
"It's really not that hard to check history"...Well then I suggest you go "check history" Mr matts.
What books have you been reading? Please provide me information as to where you have come up with the notion (or to imply) that Israel was founded on anything but violence and bloodshed that continues to this day or that " It started because of their violence", referring to the Palestinians.
Israel still continues to take land and build more settlements, so it has not really stopped, Its on going, when I wake up in the morning, it'll (probably) be the same thing.
and btw History has shown us that They have lived in 'relative' peace side by side before,
and history is filled with other examples of 'relative' peace, side by side. So based on history, yes I do honestly think that things would be better, in this modern day if Israel makes those moves, so as we have said, Israel should stop taking more land which is a major source of tension and return what needs to be returned. (For starters of course)
and I never said that "all will be righteous in the middle east", but one can easily come to a well education conclusion that things would be 'better'. -
and PJ_Soul,
Not sure how people can take sides, but okay. IMO, Isreal and Palestine are both totally fucked up and both totally wrong. Neither side is better or worse than the other. Neither side has been willing to budge for the exact same reasons, and given those reasons, I don't see how either side has allowed any possible room for compromise -
It's not really taking sides, as it is rather seeing a great injustice and calling it out, like with any other injustice (and Israeli oppression is an injustice) Both sides are wrong? The person having his home taken from him, how is that person 'wrong'? Because he fights back? Because he refuses to make peace with the person continuing to advance into his bedroom? Since when does the victim need to 'compromise', "Let's compromise, you wanna stab me 5 inches? will you settle for 3?"...People should be fine that? Is that really the world we live in? (and I have much respect for you pj_soul as a poster on these forums, and agree with your second part about 'the west should get their noses out")
But Imagine if we looked at apartheid South Africa like that, when the ANC were using 'terrorist' tactics to overthrow apartheid and then looking at the people resisting as 'totally wrong'. Israel does not get a pass...and personally I don't agree with everything the Palestinians have done, but they are not = to blame, not at all. -
(well the USA did have Mandela on the terror watch list until fairly recently) -
Idris, hmm, maybe you should go back to 1948. What happened in 1948? What exactly did happened? Who started the violence, who started the war of 1948? Again, take responsibility for the actions you side with. I'm not even a pro supporter of Israel, well I am if a band wants to play there and some self-righteous nut job decides they shouldn't on their own own sympathetic one way view of the world, but you are actually making me like Israel more. I would say you have failed in your attempt to not only speak against a band playing in Israel, but also in that in your out of place argument (this thread was about PJ playing in a country) you have given a poor showing and shown much ignorance to your cause. Good job. You, you just keep fighting the good fight, bring up politics and your political view every time you have the chance, and more importantly, keep on pursading us people that listen to what you have to say. Clap, clap. Congrats
And I know you are the type that has to get the last word in, so have at. Tell us all why you are so strongly against the idea of Pearl Jam playing for their fans in Israel. Tell us all why those fans just don't deserve a concert in your eyes. Let's hear your political views once again, on this non political thread of fans wanting a band to play. The floor is all yours. Tell us why we are all completely wrong and you are completely right.
Matt's welcome to the argument.Not once in all these threads will some on the Palestinian side take ANY ownership of terrorist actions committed on there side.Ive said before,Olympic terrorists,Hijackers,Hezbollah.Blowing up of other countries not in the fight sovereign territory.What about all that?
"You'll note the title of this thread isn't "Pearl Jam, play CM's apartment". Why make this about me? I didn't tear down the wall to my neighbor's unit, lock him is his bedroom, blow up his kitchen, erect settlements his living room, take a dump in his toilet and pretend my shit don't stink. "
Cm-Ok so this neighbor who you dont recognize as having a right to live in your building,But you have stated for your entire life should be wiped off the earth because he Dosent feel the same way about things as you finally muscles up and moves in.He says fuck you ,my family also was from this neighborhood and I want an apartment for my folks to have as a home.Your not ok with this so you blow up the market down the street,the hardware store and the police station all because my family may have ties to it.This just pisses the neighbor off and he not only moves in but decides he's sick of your bullshit and is taking over the building and the block to keep you from blowing more shit up.Does this stop you ?no,so he he continues to invite his family and friends to visit and live on the block. The more you fuck with em the bigger the block gets.Remember you didn't want him alive but were not strong enough to enforce your will and when the push back came I wasn't what you were hoping.instead of working toward regaining rooms in building or property on the block peacefully you continue to say you will not be happy unless he moves and gives you the whole building,oh and all the really big blocks from around town think what your neighbor did is ok,because they kinda did the same at some point and continue to send builders and tradesmen to to your neighbors building to make it strong.this also pisses you off so you nit pick a little violence against them. In hind sight your new neighbor could have pushed back even harder and had some buildings for family on the beach,and built a resort neighborhood......but didn't.
The stand your ground law is a good law,it just needs to be tweaked .I personally have interests that have been compromised by violent felons and I want the right to protect my family and interest as needed.I am a 100% behind responsible ownership and castle doctrine laws and am not naive enough to think it won't happen to me.
I also think the sheriff in AZ,is a pioneer at what he does and should be commended for his hard labor and tough conditions for violent offenders
Million dollar football stadiums.Yep welcome to the south,but before you cry about it.Do you know how many poor kids go on to college for free from the playing on the grass in those stadiums.My county is a football hotbed,my own son played at the D1 level,We put over 60 local kids into Division 1 college football from our county alone.So yeah we got nice stadiums but its more complex then just money for stadiums.
Drowned-you seem to be a less jacked up on this issue than Viva(who always has a negative spin).But please enlighten me on 1 thing that none of you will answer.I am an American,I have never been to Israel,though some day I want to visit Tel Aviv.Why every time I ask about the Terrorist activities of the Palestinian side I get no answer.You skip right over it Im willing to hear your side of things but please explain the killing of non military targets by Terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and other groups affiliated to your cause.I don't want the Israel spin because I'm not talking about military only issue.There is a lot hate and violence against westerners,Jews and others who have nothing to do with your border issue.Dont you think more people will listen and side with your cause if some factions/elements of Palestinians and their supporters Quit Killing and BLOWING SHIT UP.At least comment on what I keep asking.Please.Address the terrorism!!
I do not support indiscrimminate attacks on innocent people, ever. In that definition, I denounce all Palestinian terrorist acts. I'm not sure what more I can say to address the true definition of terrorism. But I'm not going to avoid the 'Israeli spin', because Israel engages in the same acts from both a state and street level. If we want to get down to the bare bones of this - the Palestinians have a legal right to self defense against their occupiers. The state of Israel does NOT have a legal right of self defense against the peoples it occupies. You cannot simutaneously exert military control over a territory, and also claim it to be a foreign threat to security. And you cannot leave the military element out of the discussion for that reason.... Israel also has a legal responsibility to defend the people of the occupied territories. Will you address settlement expansion? It is by all definitions and international opinion, a war crime, that is a major factor in ruining any chance at peace. Will you address settler violence against Palestinians, something the US state department declared acts of terrorism? HOw much play do those incidents get in Western media?
Soda stream is an Israeli company that is based in the west bank. The Palestinians who ate employed there get paid double the normal wages. They ate given excellent health coverage, and the they say they love it. This is s good thing. This is nit something to boycott at all this us progress.
So Palestinians should be thankful for being cut off from their jobs by walls and checkpoints, and left no choice but to work for their occupiers, if they can get a work permit to enter the settlements? That's progress? Sodastream issued a statement defending their operations on stolen land, making statements like the one you just made, and it was thoroughly deconstructed by the italian bds movement: http://www.bdsitalia.org/index.php/english-menu/280-reply-sodastream
I love the portrayal of Israel not allowing a concert in the West Bank. If PJ wanted to play there, they could play there. The real question is… would it be worth them playing in either location?
I can think of two cases off the top of my head (I'm sure there are many moe), in which canadian artists tried to play shows in both Israel and the West Bank (Bryan Adams, and Leonard Cohen). Both times, the West Bank shows were cancelled due to security threats and political pressure, and the Tel Aviv shows went ahead as planned. You can view that as the Palestinians being more extremist and the West Bank being unsafe....and I can view that as a direct result of Israeli extremism, the occupation, and settlement expansion. Either way, it's another example of the disadvantages of the Palestinians, and more reason for PJ to avoid playing Israel under any cirucmstance.
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
Real Life experiences will always bring perspective. I suggest you go take a look with your own eyes! You are entitled to your opinions, but you are no less a propagandist than the other side!
ya ya....we have been thru this. Send me a plane ticket, I'm there. It's not a cheap one from where I live. I guess I shouldn't have an opinion on anything that's happened in the past then, either, since I can't go back and witness it myself. And way to take a shot at Byrnzie in a debate he hasnt posted in...you've obviously got a personal grudge against both of us for our opinions on this topic....and I'm ok with that.
Not sure how people can take sides, but okay. IMO, Isreal and Palestine are both totally fucked up and both totally wrong. Neither side is better or worse than the other. Neither side has been willing to budge for the exact same reasons, and given those reasons, I don't see how either side has allowed any possible room for compromise. I don't think PJ should set foot there until both sides can stop being a bigoted bunch of hypocrites and settle things equitably. I also think "the west" shpuld get their noses right out of it and let these a-holes sort it out between themselves, for better or worse. Of course I mean all that on the political level, not personal. And of course what i think ought to be won't be, especially since the US in particular is incapable of butting put of anything when it comes to any place that has anything to do with how much money rich people can make .
As I see it, the problem is that the situation is not static. It is in a constant state of deterioration for the Palestinians; the Israelis are in 100% control. Not taking sides means we just allow Palestine continue to be divided and oppressed. Sorting it out between themselves puts the Palestinians in an even more dire situation.
. This seems the the epitome of futility. I wish someone would please suggest at least some remotely possible peaceful resolution to this situation. The world has sat at the brink of chaos over this all these years. Is it really hopeless?
I addressed possible outcomes and resolutions earlier in the thread, and no one answered my questions:
So what is your suggestion for peace? Do you support a one state solution, a two state solution, or ethnic cleansing? A two state solution is dying with every settlement unit built, and every parcel of land stolen via wall construction. If we’re left with a one state solution, we then must choose between equal rights for all citizens of ‘Greater Israel/Palestine’, or continued ethnic cleansing to ensure the Jewishness of said state. How do you see this playing out in a way that peace will be achieved? Ethnic cleansing, or rights for Palestinians? Because those are the choices this boils down to.
I'd like to hear from any of the supporters of this movement, or israel, on these points....
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers.... Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
...rr165892 i agree with your part of your last comment logic and i already kinda post that...its make no sense to say i m american band and boycott israel cos its bad..who wants israel stronge at middle east??who support and is number 1 ally with israel.??who selling them guns??.who want israel there as a step to middle east?..the answer is ..USA..so yeah if u start and say i boycott a country cos its the evil ans kill innocent people u cant just say i boycott israel and thats it...music fans..pj fan must not be panished for their goverment-country political shit.. and u cant boycott by not playing at a country and the same time u selling t-shirts and fanclub memberships to the people of that country
I don't really disagree with that, but we should keep in mind that Israel is sort of the nucleus (central/fundamental part of conflict)
The US constantly sides with Israel, we perhaps should be asking ourselves 'why', we should be asking 'why' does Israel continue to take more land? Why does a US presidential contender/ or president feel the need to give propaganda speeches to the Israeli lobby (aipac)
Some People say that it's unfair to view Israel in the same way as we viewed (for example) apartheid South Africa, yet many people who lived in South Africa during those times have said the situation in Palestine is in many ways worse, yet many of the same people who agreed with a boycott of South Africa will not support the same boycott of Israel.
and let's not forget that Israel and racist South Africa were collaborating on weapons etc. How did apartheid South Africa get nukes? Israeli help.
You know,to be fair I went back and checked some data regarding the onset of hostilities between the Israelies(Jews) and the Palestinians .Im am now even more convinced this issue was started and flames continued to be fanned by the Palestinians outright hatred toward Jews.Back in the 20s they tried to rid Palestine of Zionists and forced the worlds hand in separating the land.The outright disgusting massacres perpetrated against school kids in buses civilians in busses,Olympic athletes and innocent women children and non military targets in markets and schools makes me sick.From plane hijacking to attacks on family people it just Dosent stop.Almost all Palestinian politicians(aka terrorists)Have called for a complete removal of Jews from so called Arab land and basically anything short of everyone in Israel just giving back everything and leaving there will be no peace. As if the tensions with the Jews are not enough the hostilities were also started by Palestinian groups with Jordan(tried to kill king) in Lebanon where much violence was started and with many other European and western countries.Its like all thru the last 100 years the Palestinians have just roamed around angry and violent ,picking fights with anyone who didn't share the anti Zionist view. So I am really having a hard time finding sympathy for a movement that is founded in hate and terror.With that said I do feel for any innocent non political people caught in this big ole violent never ending mess from both sides but lets call a spade a spade I cannot and will not side with terrorist and I think there is enough proof here to say that the Palestinians are behind a lot of it and are making this world a less safe place.
I could go on and on but this is just a sample.This is not war.This is cowardly terror.Any retaliation to this against the scumbags the do this stuff is more than justified.
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
I never set foot in Apartheid South Africa either, but I was still in vocal opposition to that racist regime during the 1980's.
Pearl Jam are a band with a political conscience. They have no business playing in a racist, expansionist, Apartheid State like Israel.
If and when Israel begins abiding by international law and evacuates the racist, Jewish-only, illegal settlements, then I'll have no problem with any artist performing in that country. But if Pearl Jam decide to play in that country whilst that country continues to slowly but surely ethnically cleanse the Palestinians, then I'll probably do with my Pearl Jam records what I did with my Jane's Addiction records after reading Perry Farrell's repulsive bullshit.
Maybe because since day one of its declaration as a country it's friendly neighbors have declined to recognize it and has called for its destruction? Has started wars against it? Maybe the land they took offer a great strategic advantage in further protecting themselves? You can look at it and talk about how unjust it is, but if you look at it from the other side I can't fault them for their actions.
You don't protect yourselves by stealing the other parties land, and then placing civilians on that land, in close proximity to the enemy. You protect yourselves by pulling those civilians out of harms way and by fortifying your own borders - the only borders recognized by the whole of the international community, i.e, the 1967 borders. The settlements are not only illegal under international law, but they constitute a crime against humanity (I'll provide evidence if you need it). And they have absolutely nothing to do with Israel protecting itself.
And what wars are you claiming Israel's neighbours started against it? The 1948 war was largely instigated by Israel, and it's leaders admit that it did everything it could to provoke it. The 1967 war was also started by Israel, and again, I can provide quotations from Israel's leadership, and other documentary evidence proving as much.
I suggest you quit with the self-serving bullshit, as that crap doesn't wash anymore. People are now a lot wiser to the facts of this issue than they were 10, or 20 years ago.
Idris, the reason for the clap and smile is because it is extremely difficult to have an ongoing conversation with someone who ignores history and who ignores and takes no responsibility for the actions of the side you appear to support. 1948 is a very important year. It was the year Israel was established after the end of the British Mandate. The very next day the very friendly neighbors declared war and tried to invade. Israel did not set out to go to war from day one. That was the Arab countries including the Palestinians. This course of action is what started and eventually led to Israel taking the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Now it is easy to forget that part. Recently in 2008, who started firing rockets at who? I just can't simply sit here and look at the Palestinians as these innocent victims, and use that as a reason why a band shouldn't play for their fans in Israel. It just doesn't work for me.
Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice?
In 2003 the Dixie Chicks spoke out against the Iraq War and immediately a radio boycott was declared against them. Pearl Jam along with Bruce Springsteen and many others spoke out against that boycott and saw it is being anti-speech.
You have made it very clear that if Pearl Jam chooses to play Israel they must do so under your terms ("certain scenarios") otherwise they will be considered supporters of apartheid and will be boycotted in all forms. This is your right but by most people's accounts, including Pearl Jam's, this is a threat to stay silent.
That's a very clever twisting of the facts, and a very clever way to pretend to speak for the members of the band.
Unfortunately, it's kind of ridiculous. If Pearl Jam had spoken out in favour of the Iraq war, then they could and would, have expected to have lost a large percentage of their fan-base - I expect about 70-80% of it. Similarly, if they choose to play in Israel, then they can expect to lose a lot of respect, and to lose a large percentage of their fan-base in the process. Nothing threatening about that. It's just a fact. And it's just common sense. Why would a band with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism, suddenly decide to play in a racist, Apartheid State, and regard any opposition from their fans as 'a threat to stay silent'?
Maybe you'd have better luck attracting Ted Nugent to your cause.
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
Oh, and by the way, I'm not 'Anti-Israel'. Calling for Israel to begin abiding by international law, and to cease it's dangerous and aggressive expansion, and it's constant antagonism and wars with it's neighbours, doesn't make me anti-Israel. The only prospect for peace in that country is if it puts an end to it's psychotic behaviour, and begins establishing a democratic state, in which all of it's citizens are fully represented - not a Jewish State for the Jewish people. Ethnic Nationalism is an ugly and dangerous ideology, and is no different to what the Nazis sought to establish. There should be no tolerance for such repulsive notions in this day and age. The people calling for an end to the settlements, and for an end to the routine violence and militarism, are not anti-Israel. If you think that by supporting racial supremacy, ethnic cleansing, and military expansion, constitutes being pro-Israel, then I suggest you think again.
The way I see it, if any of the people on this, and other threads like it, really respected this band - and aren't just trying to score political points for your country - then you would not be petitioning them to play in Israel. Maybe if you put as much effort into petitioning your government to put it's house in order, and to stop trampling on the Palestinians, and to quit it's ongoing land-grab, then one day your favourite band might decide to play there.
Idris, the reason for the clap and smile is because it is extremely difficult to have an ongoing conversation with someone who ignores history and who ignores and takes no responsibility for the actions of the side you appear to support. 1948 is a very important year. It was the year Israel was established after the end of the British Mandate. The very next day the very friendly neighbors declared war and tried to invade. Israel did not set out to go to war from day one. That was the Arab countries including the Palestinians. This course of action is what started and eventually led to Israel taking the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Now it is easy to forget that part. Recently in 2008, who started firing rockets at who? I just can't simply sit here and look at the Palestinians as these innocent victims, and use that as a reason why a band shouldn't play for their fans in Israel. It just doesn't work for me.
Where did I ignore history? What history books have you been reading?
You want to go back? How far back? How about the Balfour Declaration (1917), addressed to 'Lord Rothschild, so you have these wealthy, hegemonic, greedy bankers and corporations calling for a Jewish State in Palestine, and later funded/supported by them (those same corporate groups) and governments subservient to said groups and oligarchs in the 1940's... and then the full creation of the Zionist State of Israel. A state that continues to grow, apparently by some weird sort of Spontaneous generation...Israeli land just grows, who knows how, it just does, and settlements spring from the ground like Olive Trees.
Look, you say " Israel did not set out to go to war from day one", sure! They did 'not' set out to go to war from day one...They apparently just expected to be welcomed by the natives and neighbors with baskets of Hummus and Baklava.
Of course that would be silly of those Zionists to think that, I mean to believe that you can just create a state with such violence and not expect everyone around you to get hostile, and when faced with 'hostilities' complain about the violence.
Yes 1948, 'The Nakba', -
and I've already said earlier that I don't condone everything the Palestinians have done, but it does not take away from the 'constant', which in this case Is Israel, and it's constant taking of more land/settlements and slow destruction of anything that does not fall in line with this Zionism.
Not that i'm defending Is real (if you recall, i'm in the "they both suck shit" camp.... but maybe some of you who have chosen to side with the Palestinians might feel differently or at least a little less one-sided if the Palestinians had come right out and clearly said that they wanted you and everyone like you wiped off the face of the planet, and believed it to the core of their faith, and then went about blowing up markets where you and your family shops to prove that they meant it.
These people are in a holy war. The logical expectations that people have for this conflict given that it is being fought over something that is completely illogical (and completely nonnegotiable) is kind of surprising to me.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice?
In 2003 the Dixie Chicks spoke out against the Iraq War and immediately a radio boycott was declared against them. Pearl Jam along with Bruce Springsteen and many others spoke out against that boycott and saw it is being anti-speech.
You have made it very clear that if Pearl Jam chooses to play Israel they must do so under your terms ("certain scenarios") otherwise they will be considered supporters of apartheid and will be boycotted in all forms. This is your right but by most people's accounts, including Pearl Jam's, this is a threat to stay silent.
That's a very clever twisting of the facts, and a very clever way to pretend to speak for the members of the band.
That is not a "twisting of the facts"...those are the facts. I don't pretend to speak for the band as they have spoken for themselves. Pearl Jam has declared a radio boycott of the dixie chicks to be anti-free speech. Deal with it.
Explain to me, please, how a boycott is anti-free speech and anti-choice?
In 2003 the Dixie Chicks spoke out against the Iraq War and immediately a radio boycott was declared against them. Pearl Jam along with Bruce Springsteen and many others spoke out against that boycott and saw it is being anti-speech.
You have made it very clear that if Pearl Jam chooses to play Israel they must do so under your terms ("certain scenarios") otherwise they will be considered supporters of apartheid and will be boycotted in all forms. This is your right but by most people's accounts, including Pearl Jam's, this is a threat to stay silent.
Why would a band with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism, suddenly decide to play in a racist, Apartheid State...?
Maybe because the band doesn't think Israel is a racist, Apartheid state? Have you even contemplated that? Neil Young is an artist "with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism" and he is playing there. Again I don't pretend to speak for the band but anyone who has really followed Pearl Jam knows they have never ever backed away from a fight. Ticketmaster, women's right to choice, the Iraq War, President Bush, the West Memphis 3, environmental policy, guns, you name it. No matter the issue at hand this band has time and again proven that they will take tough stands regardless of the blow back that might come their way. So this leads me to wondering...why hasn't Pearl Jam joined Roger Waters and his artists boycott of Israel already? If they agree with you Byrnzie on the substance, that Israel is truly "a racist, Apartheid state" then why haven't they spoken out on the issue? Do you think Pearl Jam would have the capacity to remain silent if they truly agreed with you? I don't speak for the band but my guess is absolutely not.
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Playing Israel is a choice the band will or will not make but you can be sure if they do so they will have their reasons and will state them... which is what many of us are waiting for Neil Young (and you know I'm a big Neil Young fan) to do. If you play, say why.
9/11 Hijackers: 15 citizens of Saudi Arabia. The others were from the UAE (2), Egypt and Lebanon.
Shoe bomber: Born and raised in England, trained in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Underwear Bomber: Born in Nigeria, Lived in London/Dubai/Yemen.
So no, I don't think Palestinians had anything to do with our airport security. I also don't believe they attacked us 'because they hate us for our freedoms'. I believe they were motivated by America's continued meddling in Middle East affairs.
Israel bombing targets and blaming it on others? Israel taking more land? building more settlements?
Tell me what I've stated that is untrue?...
I don't condone the religious fanatics on the Palestinian side, but I'm not so blind as to not clearly be able to cite/see that Israeli actions throughout it's history is/as the major contributing factor.
When Israel stops taking more land, stops building settlements, and returns what needs to be returned, if at that point Palestinians are still violent, I'll side with the Israelis.
I did not just randomly ask you who you voted for, I got curious after a couple of posts about yourself.
But I'll drop it if you like, no issues.
"if at that point Palestinians are still violent, I'll side with the Israelis."
It started because of their violence. It's really not that hard to check history and look at what happened after Israel was founded. The only difference is the battle cry and reasons have changed. The Middle East has never been peaceful for those that are not Muslim. Sorry but it's true. Do you honestly think that if Israel pulled off the West Bank and Gaza all will be righteous in the Middle East? C'mon now...
What books have you been reading? Please provide me information as to where you have come up with the notion (or to imply) that Israel was founded on anything but violence and bloodshed that continues to this day or that " It started because of their violence", referring to the Palestinians.
Israel still continues to take land and build more settlements, so it has not really stopped, Its on going, when I wake up in the morning, it'll (probably) be the same thing.
and btw History has shown us that They have lived in 'relative' peace side by side before,
and history is filled with other examples of 'relative' peace, side by side. So based on history, yes I do honestly think that things would be better, in this modern day if Israel makes those moves, so as we have said, Israel should stop taking more land which is a major source of tension and return what needs to be returned. (For starters of course)
and I never said that "all will be righteous in the middle east", but one can easily come to a well education conclusion that things would be 'better'.
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and PJ_Soul,
Not sure how people can take sides, but okay. IMO, Isreal and Palestine are both totally fucked up and both totally wrong. Neither side is better or worse than the other. Neither side has been willing to budge for the exact same reasons, and given those reasons, I don't see how either side has allowed any possible room for compromise
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It's not really taking sides, as it is rather seeing a great injustice and calling it out, like with any other injustice (and Israeli oppression is an injustice) Both sides are wrong? The person having his home taken from him, how is that person 'wrong'? Because he fights back? Because he refuses to make peace with the person continuing to advance into his bedroom? Since when does the victim need to 'compromise', "Let's compromise, you wanna stab me 5 inches? will you settle for 3?"...People should be fine that? Is that really the world we live in? (and I have much respect for you pj_soul as a poster on these forums, and agree with your second part about 'the west should get their noses out")
But Imagine if we looked at apartheid South Africa like that, when the ANC were using 'terrorist' tactics to overthrow apartheid and then looking at the people resisting as 'totally wrong'. Israel does not get a pass...and personally I don't agree with everything the Palestinians have done, but they are not = to blame, not at all.
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(well the USA did have Mandela on the terror watch list until fairly recently)
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Cm-Ok so this neighbor who you dont recognize as having a right to live in your building,But you have stated for your entire life should be wiped off the earth because he Dosent feel the same way about things as you finally muscles up and moves in.He says fuck you ,my family also was from this neighborhood and I want an apartment for my folks to have as a home.Your not ok with this so you blow up the market down the street,the hardware store and the police station all because my family may have ties to it.This just pisses the neighbor off and he not only moves in but decides he's sick of your bullshit and is taking over the building and the block to keep you from blowing more shit up.Does this stop you ?no,so he he continues to invite his family and friends to visit and live on the block.
The more you fuck with em the bigger the block gets.Remember you didn't want him alive but were not strong enough to enforce your will and when the push back came I wasn't what you were hoping.instead of working toward regaining rooms in building or property on the block peacefully you continue to say you will not be happy unless he moves and gives you the whole building,oh and all the really big blocks from around town think what your neighbor did is ok,because they kinda did the same at some point and continue to send builders and tradesmen to to your neighbors building to make it strong.this also pisses you off so you nit pick a little violence against them.
In hind sight your new neighbor could have pushed back even harder and had some buildings for family on the beach,and built a resort neighborhood......but didn't.
The stand your ground law is a good law,it just needs to be tweaked .I personally have interests that have been compromised by violent felons and I want the right to protect my family and interest as needed.I am a 100% behind responsible ownership and castle doctrine laws and am not naive enough to think it won't happen to me.
I also think the sheriff in AZ,is a pioneer at what he does and should be commended for his hard labor and tough conditions for violent offenders
Million dollar football stadiums.Yep welcome to the south,but before you cry about it.Do you know how many poor kids go on to college for free from the playing on the grass in those stadiums.My county is a football hotbed,my own son played at the D1 level,We put over 60 local kids into Division 1 college football from our county alone.So yeah we got nice stadiums but its more complex then just money for stadiums.
The years before 1948...What happened? How can you only focus on 1948, and ignore everything that leads up to it?
and again, if I've said something that is untrue, correct me. I don't mind.
Also whats this, "I'm the type who likes to get the last word?", really what are you on about? Even your insults are conjecture based.
"Tell us all why those fans just don't deserve a concert in your eyes", I never said they don't deserve a concert.
Again, how about some accuracy? Too much to ask?
I'm not sure what more I can say to address the true definition of terrorism.
But I'm not going to avoid the 'Israeli spin', because Israel engages in the same acts from both a state and street level. If we want to get down to the bare bones of this - the Palestinians have a legal right to self defense against their occupiers. The state of Israel does NOT have a legal right of self defense against the peoples it occupies. You cannot simutaneously exert military control over a territory, and also claim it to be a foreign threat to security. And you cannot leave the military element out of the discussion for that reason.... Israel also has a legal responsibility to defend the people of the occupied territories. Will you address settlement expansion? It is by all definitions and international opinion, a war crime, that is a major factor in ruining any chance at peace. Will you address settler violence against Palestinians, something the US state department declared acts of terrorism? HOw much play do those incidents get in Western media?
This is a piece on media and IDF portrayal of terror from Gaza:
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/dissecting-idf-propaganda-the-numbers-behind-the-rocket-attacks.html
So Palestinians should be thankful for being cut off from their jobs by walls and checkpoints, and left no choice but to work for their occupiers, if they can get a work permit to enter the settlements? That's progress?
Sodastream issued a statement defending their operations on stolen land, making statements like the one you just made, and it was thoroughly deconstructed by the italian bds movement:
http://www.bdsitalia.org/index.php/english-menu/280-reply-sodastream
I can think of two cases off the top of my head (I'm sure there are many moe), in which canadian artists tried to play shows in both Israel and the West Bank (Bryan Adams, and Leonard Cohen). Both times, the West Bank shows were cancelled due to security threats and political pressure, and the Tel Aviv shows went ahead as planned. You can view that as the Palestinians being more extremist and the West Bank being unsafe....and I can view that as a direct result of Israeli extremism, the occupation, and settlement expansion. Either way, it's another example of the disadvantages of the Palestinians, and more reason for PJ to avoid playing Israel under any cirucmstance.
. ya ya....we have been thru this. Send me a plane ticket, I'm there. It's not a cheap one from where I live. I guess I shouldn't have an opinion on anything that's happened in the past then, either, since I can't go back and witness it myself. And way to take a shot at Byrnzie in a debate he hasnt posted in...you've obviously got a personal grudge against both of us for our opinions on this topic....and I'm ok with that. As I see it, the problem is that the situation is not static. It is in a constant state of deterioration for the Palestinians; the Israelis are in 100% control. Not taking sides means we just allow Palestine continue to be divided and oppressed. Sorting it out between themselves puts the Palestinians in an even more dire situation. I addressed possible outcomes and resolutions earlier in the thread, and no one answered my questions:
So what is your suggestion for peace? Do you support a one state solution, a two state solution, or ethnic cleansing? A two state solution is dying with every settlement unit built, and every parcel of land stolen via wall construction. If we’re left with a one state solution, we then must choose between equal rights for all citizens of ‘Greater Israel/Palestine’, or continued ethnic cleansing to ensure the Jewishness of said state. How do you see this playing out in a way that peace will be achieved? Ethnic cleansing, or rights for Palestinians? Because those are the choices this boils down to.
I'd like to hear from any of the supporters of this movement, or israel, on these points....
Also, still awaiting comment on this:
The US constantly sides with Israel, we perhaps should be asking ourselves 'why', we should be asking 'why' does Israel continue to take more land? Why does a US presidential contender/ or president feel the need to give propaganda speeches to the Israeli lobby (aipac)
Some People say that it's unfair to view Israel in the same way as we viewed (for example) apartheid South Africa, yet many people who lived in South Africa during those times have said the situation in Palestine is in many ways worse, yet many of the same people who agreed with a boycott of South Africa will not support the same boycott of Israel.
and let's not forget that Israel and racist South Africa were collaborating on weapons etc. How did apartheid South Africa get nukes? Israeli help.
As if the tensions with the Jews are not enough the hostilities were also started by Palestinian groups with Jordan(tried to kill king) in Lebanon where much violence was started and with many other European and western countries.Its like all thru the last 100 years the Palestinians have just roamed around angry and violent ,picking fights with anyone who didn't share the anti Zionist view. So I am really having a hard time finding sympathy for a movement that is founded in hate and terror.With that said I do feel for any innocent non political people caught in this big ole violent never ending mess from both sides but lets call a spade a spade I cannot and will not side with terrorist and I think there is enough proof here to say that the Palestinians are behind a lot of it and are making this world a less safe place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_massacre
I could go on and on but this is just a sample.This is not war.This is cowardly terror.Any retaliation to this against the scumbags the do this stuff is more than justified.
Pearl Jam are a band with a political conscience. They have no business playing in a racist, expansionist, Apartheid State like Israel.
If and when Israel begins abiding by international law and evacuates the racist, Jewish-only, illegal settlements, then I'll have no problem with any artist performing in that country. But if Pearl Jam decide to play in that country whilst that country continues to slowly but surely ethnically cleanse the Palestinians, then I'll probably do with my Pearl Jam records what I did with my Jane's Addiction records after reading Perry Farrell's repulsive bullshit.
The settlements are not only illegal under international law, but they constitute a crime against humanity (I'll provide evidence if you need it). And they have absolutely nothing to do with Israel protecting itself.
And what wars are you claiming Israel's neighbours started against it? The 1948 war was largely instigated by Israel, and it's leaders admit that it did everything it could to provoke it.
The 1967 war was also started by Israel, and again, I can provide quotations from Israel's leadership, and other documentary evidence proving as much.
I suggest you quit with the self-serving bullshit, as that crap doesn't wash anymore. People are now a lot wiser to the facts of this issue than they were 10, or 20 years ago.
Unfortunately, it's kind of ridiculous. If Pearl Jam had spoken out in favour of the Iraq war, then they could and would, have expected to have lost a large percentage of their fan-base - I expect about 70-80% of it. Similarly, if they choose to play in Israel, then they can expect to lose a lot of respect, and to lose a large percentage of their fan-base in the process.
Nothing threatening about that. It's just a fact. And it's just common sense.
Why would a band with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism, suddenly decide to play in a racist, Apartheid State, and regard any opposition from their fans as 'a threat to stay silent'?
Maybe you'd have better luck attracting Ted Nugent to your cause.
The only prospect for peace in that country is if it puts an end to it's psychotic behaviour, and begins establishing a democratic state, in which all of it's citizens are fully represented - not a Jewish State for the Jewish people. Ethnic Nationalism is an ugly and dangerous ideology, and is no different to what the Nazis sought to establish. There should be no tolerance for such repulsive notions in this day and age.
The people calling for an end to the settlements, and for an end to the routine violence and militarism, are not anti-Israel. If you think that by supporting racial supremacy, ethnic cleansing, and military expansion, constitutes being pro-Israel, then I suggest you think again.
The way I see it, if any of the people on this, and other threads like it, really respected this band - and aren't just trying to score political points for your country - then you would not be petitioning them to play in Israel.
Maybe if you put as much effort into petitioning your government to put it's house in order, and to stop trampling on the Palestinians, and to quit it's ongoing land-grab, then one day your favourite band might decide to play there.
You want to go back? How far back? How about the Balfour Declaration (1917), addressed to 'Lord Rothschild, so you have these wealthy, hegemonic, greedy bankers and corporations calling for a Jewish State in Palestine, and later funded/supported by them (those same corporate groups) and governments subservient to said groups and oligarchs in the 1940's... and then the full creation of the Zionist State of Israel. A state that continues to grow, apparently by some weird sort of Spontaneous generation...Israeli land just grows, who knows how, it just does, and settlements spring from the ground like Olive Trees.
Look, you say " Israel did not set out to go to war from day one", sure! They did 'not' set out to go to war from day one...They apparently just expected to be welcomed by the natives and neighbors with baskets of Hummus and Baklava.
Of course that would be silly of those Zionists to think that, I mean to believe that you can just create a state with such violence and not expect everyone around you to get hostile, and when faced with 'hostilities' complain about the violence.
Yes 1948, 'The Nakba',
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and I've already said earlier that I don't condone everything the Palestinians have done, but it does not take away from the 'constant', which in this case Is Israel, and it's constant taking of more land/settlements and slow destruction of anything that does not fall in line with this Zionism.
These people are in a holy war. The logical expectations that people have for this conflict given that it is being fought over something that is completely illogical (and completely nonnegotiable) is kind of surprising to me.