You have to ask WHY they the needed separate land ?
They got their separate land. It was allotted to them by the U.N and it's borders were clearly defined. But that wasn't good enough for them, and didn't satisfy the Zionist ambition of seizing all of the land between the Jordan river and the sea, in accordance with their bad history, ideas of racial supremacy, and their belief that they're the chosen ones. Hence the ever expanding 'Israel', the ethnic cleansing, and the perpetual violence.
Not that i'm defending Is real (if you recall, i'm in the "they both suck shit" camp.... but maybe some of you who have chosen to side with the Palestinians might feel differently or at least a little less one-sided if the Palestinians had come right out and clearly said that they wanted you and everyone like you wiped off the face of the planet, and believed it to the core of their faith, and then went about blowing up markets where you and your family shops to prove that they meant it.
So you're suggesting that the Israeli occupation, and ongoing building of illegal, Jewish-only settlements, is a result of something somebody said?
Are the Palestinians responsible for being dispossessed of their land, brutalized, oppressed, and ethnically cleansed?
Interesting view of history you have there. Did you read it on the back of a box of cornflakes?
Maybe because the band doesn't think Israel is a racist, Apartheid state? Have you even contemplated that? Neil Young is an artist "with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism" and he is playing there. Again I don't pretend to speak for the band but anyone who has really followed Pearl Jam knows they have never ever backed away from a fight. Ticketmaster, women's right to choice, the Iraq War, President Bush, the West Memphis 3, environmental policy, guns, you name it. No matter the issue at hand this band has time and again proven that they will take tough stands regardless of the blow back that might come their way. So this leads me to wondering...why hasn't Pearl Jam joined Roger Waters and his artists boycott of Israel already? If they agree with you Byrnzie on the substance, that Israel is truly "a racist, Apartheid state" then why haven't they spoken out on the issue? Do you think Pearl Jam would have the capacity to remain silent if they truly agreed with you? I don't speak for the band but my guess is absolutely not.
Neil Young supported Reagan - a man responsible for genocide, and who's administration was the most corrupt administration in American history. So what's your point?
As for Pearl Jam, they haven't played Israel, and I suspect, and hope, that they never do - at least as Israel remains a racist Apartheid State. And labeling that country a racist Apartheid State isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Feel free to check the definitions of the words 'racist' and 'Apartheid'. And I suspect the reason they haven't played there before is the same reason why they opposed the Iraq War, supported the WM3, and opposed Bush, e.t.c; I.e, they are a band with a conscience, and they're opposed to all forms of injustice, and oppression.
That is not a "twisting of the facts"...those are the facts. I don't pretend to speak for the band as they have spoken for themselves. Pearl Jam has declared a radio boycott of the dixie chicks to be anti-free speech. Deal with it.
So because Pearl Jam opposed Bush, the Iraq War, and supported the WM3, e.t.c, you think that means they should give tacit support to a racist Apartheid state like Israel?
Not that i'm defending Is real (if you recall, i'm in the "they both suck shit" camp.... but maybe some of you who have chosen to side with the Palestinians might feel differently or at least a little less one-sided if the Palestinians had come right out and clearly said that they wanted you and everyone like you wiped off the face of the planet, and believed it to the core of their faith, and then went about blowing up markets where you and your family shops to prove that they meant it. .
Do a Google search of Zionist quotes with the tag hate or racist, and you will find a grocery list of similar statements about the Palestinians from Israeli leadership. Do you view operations like cast lead, which killed over 1500 people including 300+ children as necessary to Israel's security and therefore justified? A million people, caged in and carpet bombed with bunker busters, no where to run. schools, hospitals, factories and infrastructure targeted in the name of 'security'. Use of illegal weaponry. Depleted uranium, white phosphorous. To prove that they meant it. Is that not terrorism to you because it's state sponsored? Is it any better or worse than a suicide bombing?
These people are in a holy war. The logical expectations that people have for this conflict given that it is being fought over something that is completely illogical (and completely nonnegotiable) is kind of surprising to me.
Even if you want to talk about holy places, at it's root, the conflict is about land. land for which borders have been clearly defined by the UN and it's member states. The expectation of peace - addressing the illogical side of religious extremism, on both sides, is the second part of the problem. The first expectation IS perfectly logical - stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and force Israel to end it's expansionist policies/land theft. At least then there is a supposed level field from which to work toward peace. As it stands now, Israel has no incentive to peace and Palestine has zero leverage. Why can't anyone take a shot at commenting on the possible outcomes of the occupation? Supporting the status quo is supporting the destruction of the prospect of a Palestinian state...and IMO, the eventual implosion of Israel as a Jewish state.
I could go on and on but this is just a sample.This is not war.This is cowardly terror.Any retaliation to this against the scumbags the do this stuff is more than justified.
i suggest you quit cherry-picking facts from the Internet and actually educate yourself in the history of this conflict, if in fact you actually have any genuine interest in it. Are you Israeli? Why are you do desperate to paint the Palestinians as responsible for their own ethnic cleansing?
You claim that the Arab armies attacked Israel in 1848, and that this justifies Israel's subsequent 45 year old expansion? What do you really know about the events of 1947, and 1948, other than what you just cherry-picked from the Internet? I'll take a guess: nothing.
The Israelis had no intention of accepting the U.N Partition plan, and admitted that they did so simply as a ruse, a provocation, knowing full well that it would be rejected by the Palestinians. It was slippery political game-play designed at giving them the opportunity to seize more of the land allotted them by the partition Resolution. And they did this by implementing Plan Dalet - before the Arab armies attacked in 1948 - which was a campaign of ethnic cleansing and provocation in which many Palestinian villages were wiped out.
Seeing as you're so interested in listing massacres, I suggest you Google 'Deir Yassin Massacre'.
The intention of the Zionists all along was to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth. You really should stop trying to turn reality on its head.
Not that i'm defending Is real (if you recall, i'm in the "they both suck shit" camp.... but maybe some of you who have chosen to side with the Palestinians might feel differently or at least a little less one-sided if the Palestinians had come right out and clearly said that they wanted you and everyone like you wiped off the face of the planet, and believed it to the core of their faith, and then went about blowing up markets where you and your family shops to prove that they meant it.
So you're suggesting that the Israeli occupation, and ongoing building of illegal, Jewish-only settlements, is a result of something somebody said?
Are the Palestinians responsible for being dispossessed of their land, brutalized, oppressed, and ethnically cleansed?
Interesting view of history you have there. Did you read it on the back of a box of cornflakes?
No to everything you just asked. Stop being such a presumptive instigator and try having a civil conversation for once. There is nothing noble or clever about twisting people's words and then adding a touch of nasty.
I didn't even know they discussed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on cornflake boxes! I gotta get me some of those!
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Byrnzie,You are a hater.Plain and simple.Nothing anyone says is going to sway you from your racist views.I am not Israeli,and yes"cherry picking"the cowardly terrorist activities perpetrated by the Palestinians is the only way I can go here.There is so many examples of your side offing innocent life I would be listing it all day. And I can't disagree with you,there is a lot I do not know about what life is really like on both sides of that fence.I have stated before and I will again.I feel for all the innocent people hurt in this useless conflict.Remember the original point of this whole thread was to have PJ play Israel ,which in my opinion would be a tonic for healing and good in a region that surely needs it. But it has turned into a history lesson with hate and rascism brewing just below the surface. Since as you said I'm cherry picking my facts well it's hard not to formulate the impressions I get when every time I turn on the news there is unrest in the Middle East.Not just with you folks but Egypt,Syria,Iran,Iraq and on and on and on.Some of it it Muslim on Muslim other is us vs them.Crazy.... Unrest and violence is engrained in the fabric of many of these cultures.Century after Century it just continues.Oddly enough all sickly twisted in the name of the almighty.But almost all of them agree,they hate the Jews. And while we are at fact checking and hitting the dictionary for true definitions you should look up TERRORIST.Because that is what you are standing behind.And make no mistake about it,the Israelies are not the reason why we need Bomb detectors at airports and football games and have to remove our shoes,belts to get on a plane.It is not the Israelies who teach school children to hate a race of people in grade school.Its not the Israelies who use spray painted images of piece of shit terror mongrers as heros to young people.It must make these people very proud that if your a "Good" follower of the cause,you can grow up to the ripe age of 16 and be honored by your peers and family to strap explosives to your body and "sacrifice" yourself in the name of what???Land?. Stop trying to justify terrorism by hiding behind the poor innocent plight of the peaceful Palestinians .Who have never provoked right?
Truman should have given the people Ohio back in the 40's. That place is a dump. They could have swept a little and put a fresh coat of paint on everything. Or Detroit.
Byrnzie,You are a hater.Plain and simple.Nothing anyone says is going to sway you from your racist views.I am not Israeli,and yes"cherry picking"the cowardly terrorist activities perpetrated by the Palestinians is the only way I can go here.There is so many examples of your side offing innocent life I would be listing it all day.
I see. So because I'm opposed to Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, I must be a racist?
Since as you said I'm cherry picking my facts well it's hard not to formulate the impressions I get when every time I turn on the news there is unrest in the Middle East.Not just with you folks but Egypt,Syria,Iran,Iraq and on and on and on.Some of it it Muslim on Muslim other is us vs them.Crazy.... Unrest and violence is engrained in the fabric of many of these cultures.Century after Century it just continues.Oddly enough all sickly twisted in the name of the almighty.But almost all of them agree,they hate the Jews.
Stereotyping an entire race of people. Muslims are all crazy, bloodthirsty terrorists are they? And I'm the racist?
And while we are at fact checking and hitting the dictionary for true definitions you should look up TERRORIST.Because that is what you are standing behind.And make no mistake about it,the Israelies are not the reason why we need Bomb detectors at airports and football games and have to remove our shoes,belts to get on a plane.It is not the Israelies who teach school children to hate a race of people in grade school.Its not the Israelies who use spray painted images of piece of shit terror mongrers as heros to young people.It must make these people very proud that if your a "Good" follower of the cause,you can grow up to the ripe age of 16 and be honored by your peers and family to strap explosives to your body and "sacrifice" yourself in the name of what???Land?. Stop trying to justify terrorism by hiding behind the poor innocent plight of the peaceful Palestinians .Who have never provoked right?
And another thing, you should check out this video of Israeli children verbally abusing, and throwing rocks at Palestinian school children on the way to and from school. This is a daily occurrence:
How's that for teaching 'school children to hate a race of people'?
Palestinian terrorism is not the cause of the Israeli occupation, it's a symptom of it. The first terrorist attack inside Israel proper occurred in 1994, 30 years after the occupation began.
Do you support the Israeli occupation, rr165892? Yes or no? The Occupation has been described by Amnesty international and B'Tselem as a crime against humanity. Do you support it, and the ongoing building of racist, Jewish-only settlements?
A band like Pearl Jam have no business performing in a dangerous racist state like Israel.
The whole World is opposed to Israel's occupation, and continuing land-grab, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The whole World opposes it, and casts it's vote accordingly every year at the U.N calling for the implementation of U.N Resolution 242, which calls for an immediate withdrawal of all Israeli's from the territory it seized during and after the 1967 war. Every year the vote is almost the same; approximately 167-4 (Israel, U.S, Palau, Micronesia). The whole World is on one side, and Israel and the U.S are on the other - the U.S using (abusing) it's Power of Automatic Veto at the U.N to prevent any and all criticism of Israel, and preventing a peaceful settlement to the conflict, whilst pretending to act as an honest broker between the two (the farce continues).
The U.S government supports Israel the same way it supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa right up to the end, in the face of World opinion.
I'm not a rascist and never said all Muslims this or all Muslims that.I know many peace loving Islamic folks and have 0 problem with their choice of faith or worship.So don't twist my words.I simply stated that I can turn on the news every day and see unrest and violence in those areas/countries that are predominantly Islamic.I call out no race as a whole.But history has shown us that there has always been some issue thru out time in these areas of the world.And as much as I don't approve of ANY violence against innocent people by any other people's ,I do recognize the right of the Jewish people to have a Homeland(They also have been on that land for all of history)Jews have 1 country and have the right to protect its borders from the dozens of hostile factions that seek to wipe them out of existence.And as an American I also recognize the strategic benefit of supporting the westernized Israeli government and helping keep them strong and sovereign .I am not so much into nation building as I am in keeping religious zealots from running rough shot on the rest of the world as they try to promote their perverted view of fundamentalist religion and do away with Jews,western interests and "the Great Satan" the USA .In fact I think you either support stopping terrorism or you are a supporter of terrorism ,regardless of how you spin it.If I have to side I'm siding with those who fight what I believe to be the biggest threat to freedom(religious and other) in the world today.
But history has shown us that there has always been some issue thru out time in these areas of the world.
History? What history is that? You've studied Middle Eastern history have you? No. You've just Googled some choice snippets that you think can be used in your support of Israel. Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together for a 1000 years in that part of the World until the European Zionists moved in with their plans for ethnic cleansing. Did 'history' forget to show you that part?
And as much as I don't approve of ANY violence against innocent people by any other people's ,I do recognize the right of the Jewish people to have a Homeland(They also have been on that land for all of history)Jews have 1 country and have the right to protect its borders from the dozens of hostile factions that seek to wipe them out of existence.
They do have a homeland. They have the homeland allotted to them by the 1947 U.N Partition Plan. And the post-1967 settlements are not a part of that equation, and they do not constitute Israel's borders.
I asked you above if you support the occupation. It's a simple question. Do you, or do you not, support the Israeli occupation?
In response to your videos above I think that action is ridiculous to teach kids to hate.The kids throwing rocks should have their ass beat and the parents are idiots.Its that behavior in general that will keep this hatred going and going.You and I both know we could post stuff all day long showing evidence of our point of view.I am not a hypocrite ,I told you I don't like seeing innocent people hurt by this nonsense.Teaching hate is Ignorant,I don't care who is the recipient is or who is spewing fundamentalist garbage. I understand your frustration,I just don't approve of the actions being taken to try and resolve the issue.Make no mistake,when I critique fundamentalism it is not just the Islamics I am referring to.Hard line Jews.Christians are equally as fucked up.Forcing your religious views and dogma on others is in my opinion a crock of shit.Here at home we have plenty of nonsense and bigotry masquerading around as "the word of god" or "as the bible says".Especially here in the south.I see it every day.Just look at a issue like gay marriage, I am not a religious person although I consider myself spiritual and don't really like being told my views are wrong because I don't follow someone else's set of values or religion the way they think I should.So my perspective is not coming from a Jews vs Muslim stand point but from a clear thinking ,untarnished by religion point of view. So,what do you want.All your land back???We both know that they Israelies will not give everything back.At best a halt to further expansion would be your best outcome.When that does happen(I agree the government presently in power is not making that any easier)Will the Palestinian side look at that as a step toward peace? Will the PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah and all others fighting for independent statehood lay down their arms and cease all terror against civilians if The settlement expansion stops?Or as in the past,in fighting on the Palestinian side with the hard line lead to nothing more then a false hope.Will they want not only a stop to the settlements but for Israelies to get up and leave to the 67 lines and nothing short of that will be expectable?I would think a best case scenario to start would be to stop expansion,Stop violence and work toward a more civil moderate peace agreement that allows for the building of a Palestinian state in a more advance able environment while at the same time a denouncement and cessation of violence be immediately implemented.If all those hotheads over there could do that then maybe a PJ concert could be enjoyed by all sometime before Vedder needs a walker.
That is not a "twisting of the facts"...those are the facts. I don't pretend to speak for the band as they have spoken for themselves. Pearl Jam has declared a radio boycott of the dixie chicks to be anti-free speech. Deal with it.
So because Pearl Jam opposed Bush, the Iraq War, and supported the WM3, e.t.c, you think that means they should give tacit support to a racist Apartheid state like Israel?
Strange logic you have there.
The logic is that Pearl Jam disagrees with boycotts of artists who choose to speak their mind. They may or may not support the state of Israel but if they agreed with you and Roger Waters they would certainly say so.
Maybe because the band doesn't think Israel is a racist, Apartheid state? Have you even contemplated that? Neil Young is an artist "with a political conscience, a long history of left-wing political activism" and he is playing there. Again I don't pretend to speak for the band but anyone who has really followed Pearl Jam knows they have never ever backed away from a fight. Ticketmaster, women's right to choice, the Iraq War, President Bush, the West Memphis 3, environmental policy, guns, you name it. No matter the issue at hand this band has time and again proven that they will take tough stands regardless of the blow back that might come their way. So this leads me to wondering...why hasn't Pearl Jam joined Roger Waters and his artists boycott of Israel already? If they agree with you Byrnzie on the substance, that Israel is truly "a racist, Apartheid state" then why haven't they spoken out on the issue? Do you think Pearl Jam would have the capacity to remain silent if they truly agreed with you? I don't speak for the band but my guess is absolutely not.
And labeling that country a racist Apartheid State isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
No...it's an opinion. Respond all you want. Enter a bunch of hyperlinks. Post some youtube videos. It is well within your right to do so but just know that it ultimately harms your cause. For no negotiation, compromise, or ultimate realization of a two-state solution can ever be achieved with an individual who throws around a word like "Apartheid" so easily.
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
Real Life experiences will always bring perspective. I suggest you go take a look with your own eyes! You are entitled to your opinions, but you are no less a propagandist than the other side!
I left this board for a couple of days to enjoy some real-life experiences only to find this thread blew up as expected. I will quote myself from page 3 (is that legal?)…
Did I just read that Israel is a dangerous place? Really? Why?
I always love the long quotes and Wiki speeches from Byrzie… That "dude" is a machine!
So,what do you want.All your land back???We both know that they Israelies will not give everything back.At best a halt to further expansion would be your best outcome.When that does happen(I agree the government presently in power is not making that any easier)Will the Palestinian side look at that as a step toward peace? Will the PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah and all others fighting for independent statehood lay down their arms and cease all terror against civilians if The settlement expansion stops?Or as in the past,in fighting on the Palestinian side with the hard line lead to nothing more then a false hope.Will they want not only a stop to the settlements but for Israelies to get up and leave to the 67 lines and nothing short of that will be expectable?I would think a best case scenario to start would be to stop expansion,Stop violence and work toward a more civil moderate peace agreement that allows for the building of a Palestinian state in a more advance able environment while at the same time a denouncement and cessation of violence be immediately implemented.If all those hotheads over there could do that then maybe a PJ concert could be enjoyed by all sometime before Vedder needs a walker.
No one is asking for all the land back. We have repeatedly called for Israel to respect the 1967 borders recognized by the majority of the world. If you're calling for no further expansion the best Palestinians can hope for, you are not fully understanding the depths of the occupation. Gaza is completely surrounded and under Israeli control. The West Bank is completely fragmented by settlements, outposts, and jewish only roads. How can any country be self sustaining with a map that looks like this? :
OF COURSE there will be factions on both sides that will never be happy with any resolution. Hardline Israelis would resist evacuation claiming an ordained right to the land. And hardline palestinians would insist that all the land should be theirs. Both sides would be attacked, and would have to find ways to assist the other in prosecuting the extremists and eliminating indiscriminate reprisals. Indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings from the Palestinian side would have to be prosecuted. And Israeli blockades and military actions on Palestinian land would have to end... land theft and settler Israeli violence against Palestinians would have to be prosecuted. But saying that a halt to the settlements is the best Palestine can hope for is accepting that Palestine does not have the right to self determination.
The logic is that Pearl Jam disagrees with boycotts of artists who choose to speak their mind. They may or may not support the state of Israel but if they agreed with you and Roger Waters they would certainly say so.
You keep shifting the goal posts with this argument. The Dixie Chicks were being unofficially boycotted by radio stations in the South for speaking out AGAINST war. PJ obviously would not have a favourable opinion of that turn of events. But we're not talking about radio stations boycotting artists. We're talking about artists boycotting a nation. You then made this about our reaction to a fictitious PJ show in Israel....and we said we would stop supporting PJ. At which point you try to speculate that PJ would not support it's fans boycotting them (duh)...and I guess the conclusion to this circular round of conjecture somehow becomes 'PJ does not support boycotts'. alrighty then. If you think everyone who supports BDS is willing to do so publicly, you're really underestimating the power of the Israel lobby in north america. Some people aren't willing to be tarred as anti-semites by speaking out. It's a shame because most people see thru that shit these days. I'd also like to add that just because a band or artist has performed in Israel in the past, it doen'st mean they were educated on the topic at the time, that they have a moral conscience that has ok'd the decision, or that they haven't changed their minds about playing there again.
Canada isn't, Australia isn't, United States isn't. Pearl Jam has played a few of those places recently.
We're not denying the US isn't - they're ones allowing this to continue with their veto on the UNSC. I don't have time at the moment to look up australia's official policy on the conflict, but I know Canada's....it is bullshit lip service, but you're wrong that Canada's official policy is not opposed to the occupation, settlements, and ethnic cleansing.
From the Canadian government website: Canada believes that a just solution to the Palestinian refugee issue is central to a settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as called for in United Nations General Assembly resolution 194 (1948) and United Nations Security Council resolution 242.
Occupied Territories and Settlements Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.
No...it's an opinion. Respond all you want. Enter a bunch of hyperlinks. Post some youtube videos. It is well within your right to do so but just know that it ultimately harms your cause. For no negotiation, compromise, or ultimate realization of a two-state solution can ever be achieved with an individual who throws around a word like "Apartheid" so easily.
So he backs up his positions with facts and examples as proof....And you come back with 'providing proof only hurts your cause'? ) I get it....it's the word 'apartheid' that is preventing peace. Anyone who uses it is an extremist and won't negotiate, compromise, or accept a two state solution. Despite the fact that that is what we have continually called for in this thread - withdrawal to the 1967 lines; the two state solution Israel is preventing from occuring. I get the impression that you're not really sure what you're trying to say here.
Some of you guys/gals here are so silly. Does anyone here remember all that peace that happened when Israel left Gaza in 2005?
I suppose this is a vague attempt to cast blame on Gazans for any violence that occurred during that point in time, without actually citing any examples or any insight as to wtf you're talking about? Ah, the benevolence of those generous Israeli's, withdrawing illegal settlers....and exerting a crippling blockade. A concession, yes. But a full naval, air, and land blockade is hardly giving up control of a region, don't you agree? Israel's current leader resigned from his post in protest of the 'disengagement' of Gaza, btw. Sounds like he is really supportive of peace, right?
I have a question for the PJ Play Israel organizers.... Would you issue a statement denouncing the discrimmination of your government against Palestinians? Would you at least symbolically show a Palestinian flag as a show of solidarity in one of your youtube vids? Or are we just paying lip service to the notion that you are peaceful and do not support your government's actions?
*crickets*
Three days since I first asked this question....can we consider the silence from the OP, and anyone else associated with this campaign, an answer?
And lastly, I do find it funny when the most vocal anti-Israel people on this board have never set foot in either Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza. Byrnzie and DrownedOut are 2…
Real Life experiences will always bring perspective. I suggest you go take a look with your own eyes! You are entitled to your opinions, but you are no less a propagandist than the other side!
I left this board for a couple of days to enjoy some real-life experiences only to find this thread blew up as expected. I will quote myself from page 3 (is that legal?)…
Did I just read that Israel is a dangerous place? Really? Why?
I always love the long quotes and Wiki speeches from Byrzie… That "dude" is a machine!
Took some time off to regroup and come back with another lame personal shot, eh?
I always love PCoT's short retorts and drive-by justifications for crimes against humanity....'dude' is a machine. wow, this is fun! L-)
And again Drowned out, you take no blame. Israel left Gaza in 2005. What happened? Palastine allowed Hamas to come in, organize, run to the boarder and start launching rockets. Those peaceful guys right? "Give us back the land!" "Now we shoot rockets at you!" The issue isn't land, the issue is Arabs despise that the Jewish have a country, let alone in the Middle East. Keep blaming the Jews, but I'd take a real hard look at the racehorse you are backing. It's funny, The Palastinians always have a reason for violence, and never did/do anything wrong. I really really sympathize with your point of view...
And again Drowned out, you take no blame. Israel left Gaza in 2005. What happened? Palastine allowed Hamas to come in, organize, run to the boarder and start launching rockets. Those peaceful guys right? "Give us back the land!" "Now we shoot rockets at you!"
I provided a detailed analysis of rocket attacks from Gaza since the supposed disengagement, did you bother to read it? I highly doubt it. Israel left Gaza, but maintained full military control of the region via the blockade. Would this be acceptable to you if you were under control of a foreign military? "We'll get out of your house, but we'll stand at the end of the road and tell you when you can come and go, and what can enter or leave your neighbourhood"....? The blockade has caused starvation, a water crisis, the highest poverty rate in the middle east, and dismal prospects for education and healthcare. And you wonder why Gazans won't just accept this fate? I denounced terrorism earlier in the thread....and in the very post you are replying to, I stated that "Indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings from the Palestinian side would have to be prosecuted". (instead of the current method of retaliation - collective punishment of a million + people via blockade and military violence).....How is that not 'taking blame'?
The issue isn't land, the issue is Arabs despise that the Jewish have a country, let alone in the Middle East. Keep blaming the Jews, but I'd take a real hard look at the racehorse you are backing. It's funny, The Palastinians always have a reason for violence, and never did/do anything wrong.
Back and forth we go. Matt will you take a stab at the choices for conflict resolution I keep talking about? Do you support continuation of the occupation, the one state solution, or a two state solution? Try to support your position with details on how it will be achieved - something more than 'Palestinians are terrorists'.
"I always love PCoT's short retorts and drive-by justifications for crimes against humanity"- Don't abbreviate my screen name… it's more disrespectful than your exaggerations of crimes against humanity, occupation, and apartheid!
Bottom line… If Pearl Jam wants to play in any place in the World, they will and they should! Roger Waters can even up in the West Bank.
I never once labeled Palastinians terrorist. No, I did not read any little hyperlink you may have posted. I'm sure it is completely non biased and written as an outsiders opinion. Palastinians supporters will use any reason to justify their violent actions. Before a two state solution can be reached, the violence will have to stop, from both the Israelis and the Palastinians. When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, that showed that they are willing to work for peace. The resulting actions by the Palastinians was not one of peace. Palastinians need to realize in order for Israel to fully pullout in the future it is going to have to be baby steps and built off trust. Israel is not going to pull completely out all at once. Can you imagine how different things would be right now if the Palastinians had worked for further peaceful resolutions from 2005 towards today, instead of yet again coming up with another reason to launch rockets into Israel? I just have a hard time taking their side. You can take whatever side you want, I can respect that, but just don't sit there reading propaganda that makes you think Palastinians are just so peaceful and innocent and bringing up your points in a post that is for Pearl jam to play Israel. It's just in bad taste, and makes your cause seem a bit annoying. I hope they do play Israel one day.
"I always love PCoT's short retorts and drive-by justifications for crimes against humanity"- Don't abbreviate my screen name… it's more disrespectful than your exaggerations of crimes against humanity, occupation, and apartheid!
Bottom line… If Pearl Jam wants to play in any place in the World, they will and they should! Roger Waters can even up in the West Bank.
Agreed. Since there has been no statement either way, and no show on the horizon, I guess we're left to assume they do not want to play in Israel. Roger Waters can even it up? Why not PJ? Would you support PJ evening up their own fictional injustice?
Don't abbreviate your screen name? I was replying to personal attacks, but being too lazy to type out your screen name is disrespectful? lol, so sensitive )
I don't have time at the moment to look up australia's official policy on the conflict, but I know Canada's....it is bullshit lip service, but you're wrong that Canada's official policy is not opposed to the occupation, settlements, and ethnic cleansing.
Here's Canada's current policy on Israel from Prime Minister Harper's 2014 speech to the Israeli Knesset. If you can stomach it you should really watch the whole thing. It is a little more then "bullshit lip service". His portion on the term apartheid is at the 15 minute mark. The Palestinian members of the Knesset weren't to thrilled and interrupted the speech. I'm pretty sure neither of them were put in prison after either.
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Are the Palestinians responsible for being dispossessed of their land, brutalized, oppressed, and ethnically cleansed?
Interesting view of history you have there. Did you read it on the back of a box of cornflakes?
As for Pearl Jam, they haven't played Israel, and I suspect, and hope, that they never do - at least as Israel remains a racist Apartheid State. And labeling that country a racist Apartheid State isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Feel free to check the definitions of the words 'racist' and 'Apartheid'.
And I suspect the reason they haven't played there before is the same reason why they opposed the Iraq War, supported the WM3, and opposed Bush, e.t.c; I.e, they are a band with a conscience, and they're opposed to all forms of injustice, and oppression.
So because Pearl Jam opposed Bush, the Iraq War, and supported the WM3, e.t.c, you think that means they should give tacit support to a racist Apartheid state like Israel?
Strange logic you have there.
Do you view operations like cast lead, which killed over 1500 people including 300+ children as necessary to Israel's security and therefore justified? A million people, caged in and carpet bombed with bunker busters, no where to run. schools, hospitals, factories and infrastructure targeted in the name of 'security'. Use of illegal weaponry. Depleted uranium, white phosphorous. To prove that they meant it.
Is that not terrorism to you because it's state sponsored? Is it any better or worse than a suicide bombing?
Even if you want to talk about holy places, at it's root, the conflict is about land. land for which borders have been clearly defined by the UN and it's member states. The expectation of peace - addressing the illogical side of religious extremism, on both sides, is the second part of the problem. The first expectation IS perfectly logical - stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and force Israel to end it's expansionist policies/land theft. At least then there is a supposed level field from which to work toward peace. As it stands now, Israel has no incentive to peace and Palestine has zero leverage.
Why can't anyone take a shot at commenting on the possible outcomes of the occupation? Supporting the status quo is supporting the destruction of the prospect of a Palestinian state...and IMO, the eventual implosion of Israel as a Jewish state.
You claim that the Arab armies attacked Israel in 1848, and that this justifies Israel's subsequent 45 year old expansion? What do you really know about the events of 1947, and 1948, other than what you just cherry-picked from the Internet? I'll take a guess: nothing.
The Israelis had no intention of accepting the U.N Partition plan, and admitted that they did so simply as a ruse, a provocation, knowing full well that it would be rejected by the Palestinians. It was slippery political game-play designed at giving them the opportunity to seize more of the land allotted them by the partition Resolution. And they did this by implementing Plan Dalet - before the Arab armies attacked in 1948 - which was a campaign of ethnic cleansing and provocation in which many Palestinian villages were wiped out.
Seeing as you're so interested in listing massacres, I suggest you Google 'Deir Yassin Massacre'.
The intention of the Zionists all along was to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth.
You really should stop trying to turn reality on its head.
I didn't even know they discussed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on cornflake boxes! I gotta get me some of those!
And I can't disagree with you,there is a lot I do not know about what life is really like on both sides of that fence.I have stated before and I will again.I feel for all the innocent people hurt in this useless conflict.Remember the original point of this whole thread was to have PJ play Israel ,which in my opinion would be a tonic for healing and good in a region that surely needs it.
But it has turned into a history lesson with hate and rascism brewing just below the surface.
Since as you said I'm cherry picking my facts well it's hard not to formulate the impressions I get when every time I turn on the news there is unrest in the Middle East.Not just with you folks but Egypt,Syria,Iran,Iraq and on and on and on.Some of it it Muslim on Muslim other is us vs them.Crazy....
Unrest and violence is engrained in the fabric of many of these cultures.Century after Century it just continues.Oddly enough all sickly twisted in the name of the almighty.But almost all of them agree,they hate the Jews.
And while we are at fact checking and hitting the dictionary for true definitions you should look up TERRORIST.Because that is what you are standing behind.And make no mistake about it,the Israelies are not the reason why we need Bomb detectors at airports and football games and have to remove our shoes,belts to get on a plane.It is not the Israelies who teach school children to hate a race of people in grade school.Its not the Israelies who use spray painted images of piece of shit terror mongrers as heros to young people.It must make these people very proud that if your a "Good" follower of the cause,you can grow up to the ripe age of 16 and be honored by your peers and family to strap explosives to your body and "sacrifice" yourself in the name of what???Land?.
Stop trying to justify terrorism by hiding behind the poor innocent plight of the peaceful Palestinians .Who have never provoked right?
Stereotyping an entire race of people. Muslims are all crazy, bloodthirsty terrorists are they? And I'm the racist?
Speaking of terrorism, how would you describe the bombing of residential areas, the dropping of white phosphorous on residential areas, the bulldozing of homes with the occupants still inside, the shooting dead of children throwing rocks, the shooting dead of unarmed children, the burning of olive groves - peoples livelihoods, the bombing of hospitals and U.N safehouses, and the shooting dead of women and children waving white flags? Or how about the case of an Israeli unit Commander emptying the clip of his automatic rifle into the body of an unarmed 13 year old school girl? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/21/schoolsworldwide.israel
Or the case of a 57 year old wheelchair-bound man shot by Israeli troops and then run over by a tank, despite having been waving a white flag? http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=vNb5VkyxDlYC&pg=PR24&lpg=PR24&dq=israeli+tank+runs+over+man+in+wheelchair&source=bl&ots=B3CQMbfsfu&sig=8hf5CTYKlKD4LDPDu4T8EUm7k8Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yCACU6OfHYrroASY64DIAg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=israeli tank runs over man in wheelchair&f=false
I suppose that's not terrorism in your quaint little self-serving scheme of things, right?
And another thing, you should check out this video of Israeli children verbally abusing, and throwing rocks at Palestinian school children on the way to and from school. This is a daily occurrence:
Settlers stone Palestinian school kids in Hebron:
Israeli children attack Palestinians:
Settlers Stoning Palestine Christian Children walking to school :
How's that for teaching 'school children to hate a race of people'?
Palestinian terrorism is not the cause of the Israeli occupation, it's a symptom of it. The first terrorist attack inside Israel proper occurred in 1994, 30 years after the occupation began.
Do you support the Israeli occupation, rr165892? Yes or no? The Occupation has been described by Amnesty international and B'Tselem as a crime against humanity. Do you support it, and the ongoing building of racist, Jewish-only settlements?
The whole World is opposed to Israel's occupation, and continuing land-grab, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The whole World opposes it, and casts it's vote accordingly every year at the U.N calling for the implementation of U.N Resolution 242, which calls for an immediate withdrawal of all Israeli's from the territory it seized during and after the 1967 war. Every year the vote is almost the same; approximately 167-4 (Israel, U.S, Palau, Micronesia).
The whole World is on one side, and Israel and the U.S are on the other - the U.S using (abusing) it's Power of Automatic Veto at the U.N to prevent any and all criticism of Israel, and preventing a peaceful settlement to the conflict, whilst pretending to act as an honest broker between the two (the farce continues).
The U.S government supports Israel the same way it supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa right up to the end, in the face of World opinion.
What side are you on?
Israel Training high school kids to be killers of Palestinians:
Teaching Israeli Children to Hate Palestinians:
Israel teaches children to kill and hate:
Says the 12? year old kid above: "I picture a dead Arab, and that makes me happy".
Israeli Children learn to Hate:
They do have a homeland. They have the homeland allotted to them by the 1947 U.N Partition Plan. And the post-1967 settlements are not a part of that equation, and they do not constitute Israel's borders.
I asked you above if you support the occupation. It's a simple question. Do you, or do you not, support the Israeli occupation?
I understand your frustration,I just don't approve of the actions being taken to try and resolve the issue.Make no mistake,when I critique fundamentalism it is not just the Islamics I am referring to.Hard line Jews.Christians are equally as fucked up.Forcing your religious views and dogma on others is in my opinion a crock of shit.Here at home we have plenty of nonsense and bigotry masquerading around as "the word of god" or "as the bible says".Especially here in the south.I see it every day.Just look at a issue like gay marriage,
I am not a religious person although I consider myself spiritual and don't really like being told my views are wrong because I don't follow someone else's set of values or religion the way they think I should.So my perspective is not coming from a Jews vs Muslim stand point but from a clear thinking ,untarnished by religion point of view.
So,what do you want.All your land back???We both know that they Israelies will not give everything back.At best a halt to further expansion would be your best outcome.When that does happen(I agree the government presently in power is not making that any easier)Will the Palestinian side look at that as a step toward peace? Will the PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah and all others fighting for independent statehood lay down their arms and cease all terror against civilians if The settlement expansion stops?Or as in the past,in fighting on the Palestinian side with the hard line lead to nothing more then a false hope.Will they want not only a stop to the settlements but for Israelies to get up and leave to the 67 lines and nothing short of that will be expectable?I would think a best case scenario to start would be to stop expansion,Stop violence and work toward a more civil moderate peace agreement that allows for the building of a Palestinian state in a more advance able environment while at the same time a denouncement and cessation of violence be immediately implemented.If all those hotheads over there could do that then maybe a PJ concert could be enjoyed by all sometime before Vedder needs a walker.
Did I just read that Israel is a dangerous place? Really? Why?
I always love the long quotes and Wiki speeches from Byrzie… That "dude" is a machine!
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
How can any country be self sustaining with a map that looks like this? :
OF COURSE there will be factions on both sides that will never be happy with any resolution. Hardline Israelis would resist evacuation claiming an ordained right to the land. And hardline palestinians would insist that all the land should be theirs. Both sides would be attacked, and would have to find ways to assist the other in prosecuting the extremists and eliminating indiscriminate reprisals. Indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings from the Palestinian side would have to be prosecuted. And Israeli blockades and military actions on Palestinian land would have to end... land theft and settler Israeli violence against Palestinians would have to be prosecuted.
But saying that a halt to the settlements is the best Palestine can hope for is accepting that Palestine does not have the right to self determination. You keep shifting the goal posts with this argument. The Dixie Chicks were being unofficially boycotted by radio stations in the South for speaking out AGAINST war. PJ obviously would not have a favourable opinion of that turn of events. But we're not talking about radio stations boycotting artists. We're talking about artists boycotting a nation. You then made this about our reaction to a fictitious PJ show in Israel....and we said we would stop supporting PJ. At which point you try to speculate that PJ would not support it's fans boycotting them (duh)...and I guess the conclusion to this circular round of conjecture somehow becomes 'PJ does not support boycotts'. alrighty then.
If you think everyone who supports BDS is willing to do so publicly, you're really underestimating the power of the Israel lobby in north america. Some people aren't willing to be tarred as anti-semites by speaking out. It's a shame because most people see thru that shit these days.
I'd also like to add that just because a band or artist has performed in Israel in the past, it doen'st mean they were educated on the topic at the time, that they have a moral conscience that has ok'd the decision, or that they haven't changed their minds about playing there again. We're not denying the US isn't - they're ones allowing this to continue with their veto on the UNSC.
I don't have time at the moment to look up australia's official policy on the conflict, but I know Canada's....it is bullshit lip service, but you're wrong that Canada's official policy is not opposed to the occupation, settlements, and ethnic cleansing.
From the Canadian government website:
Canada believes that a just solution to the Palestinian refugee issue is central to a settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as called for in United Nations General Assembly resolution 194 (1948) and United Nations Security Council resolution 242.
Occupied Territories and Settlements
Canada does not recognize permanent Israeli control over territories occupied in 1967 (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip). The Fourth Geneva Convention applies in the occupied territories and establishes Israel's obligations as an occupying power, in particular with respect to the humane treatment of the inhabitants of the occupied territories. As referred to in UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 465, Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The settlements also constitute a serious obstacle to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace.
So he backs up his positions with facts and examples as proof....And you come back with 'providing proof only hurts your cause'?
I get it....it's the word 'apartheid' that is preventing peace. Anyone who uses it is an extremist and won't negotiate, compromise, or accept a two state solution. Despite the fact that that is what we have continually called for in this thread - withdrawal to the 1967 lines; the two state solution Israel is preventing from occuring. I get the impression that you're not really sure what you're trying to say here. I suppose this is a vague attempt to cast blame on Gazans for any violence that occurred during that point in time, without actually citing any examples or any insight as to wtf you're talking about?
Ah, the benevolence of those generous Israeli's, withdrawing illegal settlers....and exerting a crippling blockade. A concession, yes. But a full naval, air, and land blockade is hardly giving up control of a region, don't you agree? Israel's current leader resigned from his post in protest of the 'disengagement' of Gaza, btw. Sounds like he is really supportive of peace, right?
Three days since I first asked this question....can we consider the silence from the OP, and anyone else associated with this campaign, an answer?
I always love PCoT's short retorts and drive-by justifications for crimes against humanity....'dude' is a machine.
wow, this is fun!
L-)
I denounced terrorism earlier in the thread....and in the very post you are replying to, I stated that "Indiscriminate rocket attacks and suicide bombings from the Palestinian side would have to be prosecuted". (instead of the current method of retaliation - collective punishment of a million + people via blockade and military violence).....How is that not 'taking blame'? Back and forth we go. Matt will you take a stab at the choices for conflict resolution I keep talking about? Do you support continuation of the occupation, the one state solution, or a two state solution? Try to support your position with details on how it will be achieved - something more than 'Palestinians are terrorists'.
Bottom line… If Pearl Jam wants to play in any place in the World, they will and they should! Roger Waters can even up in the West Bank.
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Roger Waters can even it up? Why not PJ? Would you support PJ evening up their own fictional injustice?
Don't abbreviate your screen name? I was replying to personal attacks, but being too lazy to type out your screen name is disrespectful? lol, so sensitive