BK5403, hilarious. You should have been warned that Byrnzie learned the phrase "South African Apartheid" and he will use it as some sort of paralleled in his fight to rid the Middle East of Jewish people. Also be wary of the many links and quotes that will be posted. Also really take (expecially coming from the source) the being brainwashed reference very very seriously. I kid I kid, for reals, listen to this guy. He knows all. Has interweb links to prove it. He convinced me. Death to all Israelis, long live innocent Palastinians.
Did ending South African apartheid mean ridding Africa of white people? No.
If you truly were a supporter of Israel, you would support reforms in that country, because they are on a sure path to self destruction at the moment. If you disagree, tell me why. I know you won't even take a stab at that, because I've asked for your views on possible outcomes to the occupation repeatedly, to no avail. You've demonstrated complete ignorance on this topic (you can't even spell Palestine for chrissake), and a lack of social skills via your inability to type more than two sentences without including a personal attack. It's funny, because every time you do this, it gives us the opportunity to both make you look bad and further support our opinions with fact. And despite the fact that you obviously don't require facts to think you're informed on a topic, most people do. You've basically allowed us to fill this thread with reasons why pj should not play Israel, with the only retort being 'you hate Jews'. This thread has over 2k views, so I would hope there are people taking something away from it. All they're taking from you is that you don't like byrnzie and I. So you're just hurting your position...and again, the op and other campaigners have abandoned this thread because of it. Well done Matty-boy, thank you. This thread is a perfect microcosm of the discourse on the occupation. We've seen at least 3-4 of Israel's apologists resort to personal attacks and defamation, while providing zero support for their positions, aside from conjecture and feeble appeals to pathos. Supporters of the state of Israel get backed into a corner and start with the ad hominems (anyone who publicly disagrees is branded anti Semite and wants Jews wiped off the face of the earth). They also want us to stfu - similar to the way israel-backing lobby groups are pushing for anti bds legislation in at least 3 states (probably more), and in canada.....wanting to make it against the law for Americans and Canadians to criticize Israel....while claiming Israel is a bastion of free speech. Total joke.
I am far from racist. It's called being sarcastic. And truthfully that is how you guys are coming across as. In your points of view that you have expressed over and over, you blame Israel for everything. You side with the Palestinians and can see no fault on their end. Palastinians have called for the destruction of Israel since it was founded after WWII. So you come across as you want Israel to be destroyed. You blindly ignore any aggressive actions that have been taken against Israel. If you guys would remotely even hint at the idea that the Palastinians aren't as innocent as you paint them out to be, you wouldn't come across like that. You also decide to come to a peaceful thread and start spreading your view points, fully expecting that someone would reply. Will it really keep you up at night if Pearl Jam played there?
And you are right, I have no clue about Israel, Palastine, Middle East, Pearl Jam, or whatever else I disagree with you on. And actually yes, it would be nice if you guys would shut up on this thread. Go start your own thread and preach all you want to. Again, it's called manors. You can have your opinions, but you have to know the right time and place to express them. Also thanks, I've been out of town for two weeks for work, and you guys have been keeping me entertained when I get bored.
And sorry my replies aren't as long as yours, or I have misspelling, or whatever else you complained about. See I pick up my iPad, respond, and then put it down. It's about a 5 minute process for me. It's a forum, and I don't think I'm going to change the world from here.
I am far from racist. It's called being sarcastic. And truthfully that is how you guys are coming across as. In your points of view that you have expressed over and over, you blame Israel for everything. You side with the Palestinians and can see no fault on their end. Palastinians have called for the destruction of Israel since it was founded after WWII. So you come across as you want Israel to be destroyed. You blindly ignore any aggressive actions that have been taken against Israel. If you guys would remotely even hint at the idea that the Palastinians aren't as innocent as you paint them out to be, you wouldn't come across like that. You also decide to come to a peaceful thread and start spreading your view points, fully expecting that someone would reply. Will it really keep you up at night if Pearl Jam played there?
And you are right, I have no clue about Israel, Palastine, Middle East, Pearl Jam, or whatever else I disagree with you on. And actually yes, it would be nice if you guys would shut up on this thread. Go start your own thread and preach all you want to. Again, it's called manors. You can have your opinions, but you have to know the right time and place to express them. Also thanks, I've been out of town for two weeks for work, and you guys have been keeping me entertained when I get bored.
Nobody said anything remotely indicating that they want to see Israel destroyed. The thing that we object to, and which the whole World also objects to - excluding Israel and the U.S government - is the ongoing occupation and land-grab. It's not only illegal under international law, but according to every major Human Rights Group and the U.N, it represents a crime against humanity. Siding with World opinion on this issue doesn't mean we're anti-semites, or that we want to see Israel wiped off the map. And as far as Palestinian terrorism goes, it pales in comparison to Israeli terrorism, and the death and destruction Israel has wreaked for the past 60 years. Nevertheless, nobody here's saying they condone the killing of civilians. But Palestinian terror attacks are not a cause of the conflict and the occupation, they're a symptom of it.
Israel needs to end the occupation, and vacate the settlements. It can then fortify it's internationally recognized borders and protect it's citizens, while the Palestinians can do the same.
In the meantime, no artist with any political conscience should perform in that country and give tacit support to it's ongoing crimes. And if you start a thread on this bands forum asking for them to play there, then you shouldn't act surprised when you get a reaction.
Do you honestly think if Israel left Gaza and the West Bank there will peace? And you are saying that before Israel took Gaza and the West Bank there was peace? I ask that because you stated that terror attacks are a symptom of the occupation, impliying there were none before, and everything was peaceful before Israel aquired the land? I honestly think they need to leave the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but I can't blame them for occupying it.
Do you honestly think if Israel left Gaza and the West Bank there will peace? And you are saying that before Israel took Gaza and the West Bank there was peace? I ask that because you stated that terror attacks are a symptom of the occupation, impliying there were none before, and everything was peaceful before Israel aquired the land? I honestly think they need to leave the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but I can't blame them for occupying it.
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
You can't blame them for occupying the West Bank and Gaza strip? Why? It's not their land. That land belongs to the Palestinians, and they have no right to it.
What concessions have the Israeli's made towards peace since 1967? None. Zero. If they wanted peace they could have had it a long time ago, but that's not what interests them.
Also, you keep harping on about Palestinian terrorism. Why do you have no issue with Israeli terrorism? Is their far greater terrorism acceptable to you? You shout 'terrorism' when talking about Palestinian violence against the Israeli's, but you have no problem with the Israeli's shelling residential areas, bulldozing Palestinian homes - sometimes with the occupants still inside - shooting unarmed men, women, and children, dropping white phosphorous bombs on Gaza, and bombing schools, hospitals, and U.N safe houses? Why is that? And yet you accuse me of being the racist?
'...the introductory statement to Resolution 242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war, implying that if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante: that, logically, is [U.N Resolution] 242’s default setting. Had there been a sincere intention on Israel’s part to withdraw from the territories, surely forty years should have been more than enough time in which to reach an agreement.
In the course of a war launched by Arab countries that sought to prevent the implementation of the UN partition resolution, Israel enlarged its territory by 50 per cent. If it is illegal to acquire territory as a result of war, then the question now cannot conceivably be how much additional Palestinian territory Israel may confiscate, but rather how much of the territory it acquired in the course of the war of 1948 it is allowed to retain. At the very least, if ‘adjustments’ are to be made to the 1949 armistice line, these should be made on Israel’s side of that line, not the Palestinians.
...Clearly, the obstacle to resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict has not been a dearth of peace initiatives or peace envoys. Nor has it been the violence to which Palestinians have resorted in their struggle to rid themselves of Israel’s occupation, even when that violence has despicably targeted Israel’s civilian population. It is not to sanction the murder of civilians to observe that such violence occurs, sooner or later, in most situations in which a people’s drive for national self-determination is frustrated by an occupying power. Indeed, Israel’s own struggle for national independence was no exception. According to the historian Benny Morris, in this conflict it was the Irgun that first targeted civilians. In Righteous Victims, Morris writes that the upsurge of Arab terrorism in 1937 ‘triggered a wave of Irgun bombings against Arab crowds and buses, introducing a new dimension to the conflict.’ While in the past Arabs had ‘sniped at cars and pedestrians and occasionally lobbed a grenade, often killing or injuring a few bystanders or passengers’, now ‘for the first time, massive bombs were placed in crowded Arab centres, and dozens of people were indiscriminately murdered and maimed.’ Morris notes that ‘this “innovation” soon found Arab imitators.
....The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that ‘Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.’) That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this.'
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
I suggest you read the things you post before posting them in future. From your link: 'The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine..
...In mid-August 1929, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting slogans such as The Wall is Ours and raising the Jewish national flag. Rumours spread that Jewish youths had also attacked Arabs and had cursed Muhammad. Following an inflammatory sermon the next day, hundreds of Muslims converged on the Western Wall, burning prayer books and injuring the beadle. The rioting soon spread to the Jewish commercial area of town and the next day, a young Jew was stabbed to death. The authorities failed to quell the violence. On Friday, August 23, inflamed by rumors that Jews were planning to attack al-Aqsa Mosque, Arabs started to attack Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem. The first murders of the day took place when two or three Arabs passing by the Jewish Quarter of Mea Shearim were assassinated. Rumours that Jews had massacred Arabs in Jerusalem arrived in Hebron by that evening. Hillel Cohen frames his recent narrative of the incident in terms of the murder of the Jaffa Awan family a Jewish police constable Simcha Hinkis.'
And to think that Jews and Arabs had lived together in peace for a 1000 years until the European Zionists moved in with their ideas of racial supremacy, and with their plans for ethnic cleansing.
So, Byrnzie, I again ask you do you really think there will be peace if Israel pulls away? I'm looking for your answer, not a post or you quoting others. Your answer, your words. Can you do that, or is it going to consist of you posting links and quoting others? I'm asking for you to answer in your own words.
So also, do you despise Jeff, Stone, Mike, and Neil? Cause they have played in this country that you desperately want everyone to know that is true evil. I mean you must fully truly stand by your convictions and denounce and hate anyone that must play there. But I guess you dont. Please, by all means stand by your convictions and boycott most of the band who's forum you are on!. Do it, seriously, you feel so strong about it now. Let's not forget the past. Stand by it.
So, Byrnzie, I again ask you do you really think there will be peace if Israel pulls away? I'm looking for your answer, not a post or you quoting others. Your answer, your words. Can you do that, or is it going to consist of you posting links and quoting others? I'm asking for you to answer in your own words.
That's clever. I think I've backed up my comments with links and/or quotes maybe twice in this thread. Though I can see why that would be a problem for you, as I know you'd prefer to just engage in opinions and insults instead. There are others reading this thread, and I'll post links and quotes for their benefit whenever I feel it's necessary to do so, and I couldn't give a fuck whether you like it or not.
As to your question, If you'd been paying atention to this thread, then you'd have noticed that I already answered it above. I said that the Israeli's could pull back to their internationally recognized, and legal, borders, and then fortify those borders. And if it then took a generation or two of having to post U.N troops along that border to ward off any extremists from either side, then so be it. The fact that the Palestinian leadership has already declared it's acceptance of U.N 242 and an Israeli retreat to the 1967 borders suggests they'd be satisfied with that, though I'm not sure what the extremist settlers on the other side would feel about it.
I.e,...
'[Moshe] Dayan [former Israeli military leader and politician] himself stated that "from the point of view of the security of the State, the establishment of the settlements has no great importance." Other officials shared his assessment:
"We have to use the pretext of security needs and the authority of the military governor as there is no way of driving out the Arabs from their land as long as they refuse to go and accept our compensation..."
In 1969 moreover, Dayan had emphasized that the settlements were eternal: "the settlements established in the territories are there forever, and the future frontiers will include these settlements as part of Israel." In private, he had already in 1967 made it quite clear how the Palestinians were not, in fact, to have a secure and tolerable existence: "there is no solution," he said, "and you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever prefers shall leave..."
...The settler movement's messianic notions of racial destiny have been amply documented. Yehoshafat Harkabi, a former Major General and intelligence chief in the Israeli Defense Forces, describes how they interpret the "halakha - the body of religious laws designed to encode a unique and binding lifestyle." Harkabi, like others, considers Rabbi Zvi Yehudah Kook to be the mentor of the Gush Emunim settler movement and cites him as saying at a public meeting that:
"I tell you explicitly that the Torah forbids us to surrender even one inch of our liberated land. There are no conquests here and we are not occupying foreign lands; we are returning to our home, to the inheritance of our ancestors. There is no Arab land here, only the inheritance of our God - and the more the world gets used to this thought the better it will be for them and for all of us..."
So also, do you despise Jeff, Stone, Mike, and Neil? Cause they have played in this country that you desperately want everyone to know that is true evil. I mean you must fully truly stand by your convictions and denounce and hate anyone that must play there. But I guess you dont. Please, by all means stand by your convictions and boycott most of the band who's forum you are on!. Do it, seriously, you feel so strong about it now. Let's not forget the past. Stand by it.
Nah, I just put it down to them having not known any better.
The World has wised-up a lot with regards to this issue over the past 10-20 years. People can now see through the Israeli's bullshit, and are privy to the facts instead. I have the utmost respect for all the members of this band.
First terror attack in 1994-SMFH Lets see,Instead of attacking at home your peacefull warriors traveled a lil.You know hijacking planes,Slaughtering Olympic athletes,Attempting to assignate leaders of other countries and basically working on unrest and civil discord where ever they could to whoever would listen.PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah,PRC,AAMB and others are just civil orginazations right? stirring up a little peaceful jihad amongst friends.
First terror attack in 1994-SMFH Lets see,Instead of attacking at home your peacefull warriors traveled a lil.You know hijacking planes,Slaughtering Olympic athletes,Attempting to assignate leaders of other countries and basically working on unrest and civil discord where ever they could to whoever would listen.PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah,PRC,AAMB and others are just civil orginazations right? stirring up a little peaceful jihad amongst friends.
Do you really want to start comparing atrocities by both sides? Really? Are you sure you wanna go down that road?
Here's some more info for you to digest: During 'Operation Cast Lead' between December 2008 and January 2009, over 1000 Palestinian civilians were killed - including over 400 children - and 250 police officers, compared with 3 Israeli civilians killed. Later investigations determined that the Israeli's had deliberately targeted civilians, including the bombing of schools, police barracks, hospitals, and U.N safe-houses. How's that for terrorism?
First terror attack in 1994-SMFH Lets see,Instead of attacking at home your peacefull warriors traveled a lil.You know hijacking planes,Slaughtering Olympic athletes,Attempting to assignate leaders of other countries and basically working on unrest and civil discord where ever they could to whoever would listen.PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah,PRC,AAMB and others are just civil orginazations right? stirring up a little peaceful jihad amongst friends.
Anyway, you've already admitted that you support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, so you're hardly in a position to try taking any moral high-ground here.
First terror attack in 1994-SMFH Lets see,Instead of attacking at home your peacefull warriors traveled a lil.You know hijacking planes,Slaughtering Olympic athletes,Attempting to assignate leaders of other countries and basically working on unrest and civil discord where ever they could to whoever would listen.PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah,PRC,AAMB and others are just civil orginazations right? stirring up a little peaceful jihad amongst friends.
Anyway, you've already admitted that you support Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, so you're hardly in a position to try taking any moral high-ground here.
Dude,you are classic.You can spin anything to fit your terrorist supporting agenda.You also have a knack for twisting words around.I support ethnic cleansing huh?I don't remember saying that.I was promoting peace thru shared music.
If the Israelis wanted to turn gaza into prime beach front condos and luxury vacation villas and" cleanse" the area of Palestinians ,I'm sure it woulda been done by now.They have the might thats for sure.So who is the Palestinian leader that is shouting from the rooftops for peace anyway.Who is this future Nobel prize winning great man that is championing the peaceful solution to your issue.Who??????Who is willing to stand up to the violent factions within the Palestinian "freedom" movement and denounce the hate and violence and call for a sane and just meeting of the sides to end the centuries of crap?
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
Byrnzie....be very careful now with some of your facts. My friend's sister, a Canadian tourist visiting Israel, was killed on a Tel Aviv beach in July of 1990. An innocent 17 year old girl.
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
Byrnzie....be very careful now with some of your facts. My friend's sister, a Canadian tourist visiting Israel, was killed on a Tel Aviv beach in July of 1990. An innocent 17 year old girl.
Be careful with the facts...meaning don't state them. Byrnzie is one of the few people who has made any sense on this thread. Your friend's sister do you really want to go there? A young boy from my family's village, not in 1990, but in 2012 was hit by the more supposedly "humane" rubber bullet and is now paralyzed, he is 18...which ironically brings to mind neil youngs lyrics "the kinder, gentler machine gun hand...one more kid who will never get to school, never get fall in love, never get to be cool" I think you just inspired a letter written to ny, but that is for another time. Every single person in my family's village, has either had been directly effected by the occupation, had someone killed, imprisoned, injured, their house raided, land taken, etc, or knows someone who has. This is the reality of life under occupation. I am sorry about what happened to your friend's sister. But those who have suffered and been killed since the state of israel was created on the land of Palestine are no less innocent, and have not received any apologies. So, don't tell people to be "careful" with facts, for a lot of us they are a reality, I thank Byrnzie and everyone else on this thread who wanted to share or shed a little light, tell our side of the story for once. As Eddie Vedder once sang, "Silence is defeat."
The first terror attacks inside Israel proper occurred in 1994. Before that, all the violence took place along the borders, which the Israeli's kept expanding, and in the areas siezed by the Israeli's during and after the 1948 war.
Byrnzie....be very careful now with some of your facts. My friend's sister, a Canadian tourist visiting Israel, was killed on a Tel Aviv beach in July of 1990. An innocent 17 year old girl.
Be careful with the facts...meaning don't state them. Byrnzie is one of the few people who has made any sense on this thread. Your friend's sister do you really want to go there?
Yes I do want to go there. Byrnzie made a statement that was absolutely false. He claimed that the first terror attacks inside Israel occurred in 1994. I proved this was incorrect. Your suffering notwithstanding he should indeed be careful with his facts.
Byrnzie....be very careful now with some of your facts. My friend's sister, a Canadian tourist visiting Israel, was killed on a Tel Aviv beach in July of 1990. An innocent 17 year old girl.
I stand corrected. I did read somewhere that the first attacks inside Israel took place in 1994. I expect now that it was probably referring to suicide bombings. Thanks for setting me straight.
I support ethnic cleansing huh?I don't remember saying that.
You don't have a very good memory, do you?
Byrnzie:"You still haven't answered my question. I've asked it twice already. I'll ask it again a third time: Do you support the Israeli occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?"
I support ethnic cleansing huh?I don't remember saying that.
You don't have a very good memory, do you?
Byrnzie:"You still haven't answered my question. I've asked it twice already. I'll ask it again a third time: Do you support the Israeli occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?"
rr165892:"Yes Byrnzie"
You just destroyed any credibility you may have had with this bullshit post Byrnzie. Holy fuck, you should write speeches for shady politicians or something. Distorting what people say and mean seems like second nature to you.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
If you truly were a supporter of Israel, you would support reforms in that country, because they are on a sure path to self destruction at the moment. If you disagree, tell me why. I know you won't even take a stab at that, because I've asked for your views on possible outcomes to the occupation repeatedly, to no avail. You've demonstrated complete ignorance on this topic (you can't even spell Palestine for chrissake), and a lack of social skills via your inability to type more than two sentences without including a personal attack. It's funny, because every time you do this, it gives us the opportunity to both make you look bad and further support our opinions with fact. And despite the fact that you obviously don't require facts to think you're informed on a topic, most people do. You've basically allowed us to fill this thread with reasons why pj should not play Israel, with the only retort being 'you hate Jews'. This thread has over 2k views, so I would hope there are people taking something away from it. All they're taking from you is that you don't like byrnzie and I. So you're just hurting your position...and again, the op and other campaigners have abandoned this thread because of it. Well done Matty-boy, thank you.
This thread is a perfect microcosm of the discourse on the occupation. We've seen at least 3-4 of Israel's apologists resort to personal attacks and defamation, while providing zero support for their positions, aside from conjecture and feeble appeals to pathos. Supporters of the state of Israel get backed into a corner and start with the ad hominems (anyone who publicly disagrees is branded anti Semite and wants Jews wiped off the face of the earth). They also want us to stfu - similar to the way israel-backing lobby groups are pushing for anti bds legislation in at least 3 states (probably more), and in canada.....wanting to make it against the law for Americans and Canadians to criticize Israel....while claiming Israel is a bastion of free speech. Total joke.
And you are right, I have no clue about Israel, Palastine, Middle East, Pearl Jam, or whatever else I disagree with you on. And actually yes, it would be nice if you guys would shut up on this thread. Go start your own thread and preach all you want to. Again, it's called manors. You can have your opinions, but you have to know the right time and place to express them. Also thanks, I've been out of town for two weeks for work, and you guys have been keeping me entertained when I get bored.
Siding with World opinion on this issue doesn't mean we're anti-semites, or that we want to see Israel wiped off the map.
And as far as Palestinian terrorism goes, it pales in comparison to Israeli terrorism, and the death and destruction Israel has wreaked for the past 60 years. Nevertheless, nobody here's saying they condone the killing of civilians. But Palestinian terror attacks are not a cause of the conflict and the occupation, they're a symptom of it.
Israel needs to end the occupation, and vacate the settlements. It can then fortify it's internationally recognized borders and protect it's citizens, while the Palestinians can do the same.
In the meantime, no artist with any political conscience should perform in that country and give tacit support to it's ongoing crimes. And if you start a thread on this bands forum asking for them to play there, then you shouldn't act surprised when you get a reaction.
You can't blame them for occupying the West Bank and Gaza strip? Why? It's not their land. That land belongs to the Palestinians, and they have no right to it.
What concessions have the Israeli's made towards peace since 1967? None. Zero. If they wanted peace they could have had it a long time ago, but that's not what interests them.
Also, you keep harping on about Palestinian terrorism. Why do you have no issue with Israeli terrorism? Is their far greater terrorism acceptable to you? You shout 'terrorism' when talking about Palestinian violence against the Israeli's, but you have no problem with the Israeli's shelling residential areas, bulldozing Palestinian homes - sometimes with the occupants still inside - shooting unarmed men, women, and children, dropping white phosphorous bombs on Gaza, and bombing schools, hospitals, and U.N safe houses? Why is that? And yet you accuse me of being the racist?
Read on:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam
'...the introductory statement to Resolution 242 declares that territory cannot be acquired by war, implying that if the parties cannot reach agreement, the occupier must withdraw to the status quo ante: that, logically, is [U.N Resolution] 242’s default setting. Had there been a sincere intention on Israel’s part to withdraw from the territories, surely forty years should have been more than enough time in which to reach an agreement.
In the course of a war launched by Arab countries that sought to prevent the implementation of the UN partition resolution, Israel enlarged its territory by 50 per cent. If it is illegal to acquire territory as a result of war, then the question now cannot conceivably be how much additional Palestinian territory Israel may confiscate, but rather how much of the territory it acquired in the course of the war of 1948 it is allowed to retain. At the very least, if ‘adjustments’ are to be made to the 1949 armistice line, these should be made on Israel’s side of that line, not the Palestinians.
...Clearly, the obstacle to resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict has not been a dearth of peace initiatives or peace envoys. Nor has it been the violence to which Palestinians have resorted in their struggle to rid themselves of Israel’s occupation, even when that violence has despicably targeted Israel’s civilian population. It is not to sanction the murder of civilians to observe that such violence occurs, sooner or later, in most situations in which a people’s drive for national self-determination is frustrated by an occupying power. Indeed, Israel’s own struggle for national independence was no exception. According to the historian Benny Morris, in this conflict it was the Irgun that first targeted civilians. In Righteous Victims, Morris writes that the upsurge of Arab terrorism in 1937 ‘triggered a wave of Irgun bombings against Arab crowds and buses, introducing a new dimension to the conflict.’ While in the past Arabs had ‘sniped at cars and pedestrians and occasionally lobbed a grenade, often killing or injuring a few bystanders or passengers’, now ‘for the first time, massive bombs were placed in crowded Arab centres, and dozens of people were indiscriminately murdered and maimed.’ Morris notes that ‘this “innovation” soon found Arab imitators.
....The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that ‘Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.’) That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this.'
What about Hebron massacre ? 1929
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/meet-the-israeli-and-palestinian-heavy-metal-bands-headbanging-for-middle-east-peace-9119705.html
youtube.com/watch?v=xEJ8zjTEsHk
'The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine..
...In mid-August 1929, hundreds of Jewish nationalists marched to the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting slogans such as The Wall is Ours and raising the Jewish national flag. Rumours spread that Jewish youths had also attacked Arabs and had cursed Muhammad. Following an inflammatory sermon the next day, hundreds of Muslims converged on the Western Wall, burning prayer books and injuring the beadle. The rioting soon spread to the Jewish commercial area of town and the next day, a young Jew was stabbed to death. The authorities failed to quell the violence. On Friday, August 23, inflamed by rumors that Jews were planning to attack al-Aqsa Mosque, Arabs started to attack Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem. The first murders of the day took place when two or three Arabs passing by the Jewish Quarter of Mea Shearim were assassinated. Rumours that Jews had massacred Arabs in Jerusalem arrived in Hebron by that evening. Hillel Cohen frames his recent narrative of the incident in terms of the murder of the Jaffa Awan family a Jewish police constable Simcha Hinkis.'
And to think that Jews and Arabs had lived together in peace for a 1000 years until the European Zionists moved in with their ideas of racial supremacy, and with their plans for ethnic cleansing.
As to your question, If you'd been paying atention to this thread, then you'd have noticed that I already answered it above. I said that the Israeli's could pull back to their internationally recognized, and legal, borders, and then fortify those borders. And if it then took a generation or two of having to post U.N troops along that border to ward off any extremists from either side, then so be it. The fact that the Palestinian leadership has already declared it's acceptance of U.N 242 and an Israeli retreat to the 1967 borders suggests they'd be satisfied with that, though I'm not sure what the extremist settlers on the other side would feel about it.
I.e,...
'[Moshe] Dayan [former Israeli military leader and politician] himself stated that "from the point of view of the security of the State, the establishment of the settlements has no great importance." Other officials shared his assessment:
"We have to use the pretext of security needs and the authority of the military governor as there is no way of driving out the Arabs from their land as long as they refuse to go and accept our compensation..."
In 1969 moreover, Dayan had emphasized that the settlements were eternal: "the settlements established in the territories are there forever, and the future frontiers will include these settlements as part of Israel." In private, he had already in 1967 made it quite clear how the Palestinians were not, in fact, to have a secure and tolerable existence: "there is no solution," he said, "and you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever prefers shall leave..."
...The settler movement's messianic notions of racial destiny have been amply documented. Yehoshafat Harkabi, a former Major General and intelligence chief in the Israeli Defense Forces, describes how they interpret the "halakha - the body of religious laws designed to encode a unique and binding lifestyle." Harkabi, like others, considers Rabbi Zvi Yehudah Kook to be the mentor of the Gush Emunim settler movement and cites him as saying at a public meeting that:
"I tell you explicitly that the Torah forbids us to surrender even one inch of our liberated land. There are no conquests here and we are not occupying foreign lands; we are returning to our home, to the inheritance of our ancestors. There is no Arab land here, only the inheritance of our God - and the more the world gets used to this thought the better it will be for them and for all of us..."
The World has wised-up a lot with regards to this issue over the past 10-20 years. People can now see through the Israeli's bullshit, and are privy to the facts instead. I have the utmost respect for all the members of this band.
Carry on.
Lets see,Instead of attacking at home your peacefull warriors traveled a lil.You know hijacking planes,Slaughtering Olympic athletes,Attempting to assignate leaders of other countries and basically working on unrest and civil discord where ever they could to whoever would listen.PLO,Hammas,Hezbollah,PRC,AAMB and others are just civil orginazations right? stirring up a little peaceful jihad amongst friends.
Here's some more info for you to digest: During 'Operation Cast Lead' between December 2008 and January 2009, over 1000 Palestinian civilians were killed - including over 400 children - and 250 police officers, compared with 3 Israeli civilians killed. Later investigations determined that the Israeli's had deliberately targeted civilians, including the bombing of schools, police barracks, hospitals, and U.N safe-houses. How's that for terrorism?
I could play this game all day.
If the Israelis wanted to turn gaza into prime beach front condos and luxury vacation villas and" cleanse" the area of Palestinians ,I'm sure it woulda been done by now.They have the might thats for sure.So who is the Palestinian leader that is shouting from the rooftops for peace anyway.Who is this future Nobel prize winning great man that is championing the peaceful solution to your issue.Who??????Who is willing to stand up to the violent factions within the Palestinian "freedom" movement and denounce the hate and violence and call for a sane and just meeting of the sides to end the centuries of crap?
X_X
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/30/world/israel-seizes-8-arabs-in-bombing-at-beach-that-killed-a-tourist.html
Edit: Yeah, It was referring to suicide attacks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3256858.stm I'll be more careful in future.
Byrnzie: "You still haven't answered my question. I've asked it twice already. I'll ask it again a third time: Do you support the Israeli occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?"
rr165892: "Yes Byrnzie"