Hear the fans - Bring Pearl Jam To Israel

JK18472

Well said johnniebeblue!!!!

rr165892

Nice Johnnie. Glad to have more common sense on this thread.Now sit back and get ready for 5 pages of pro Palestinian spin

JohnnieBeBlue

rr165892 said:

Nice Johnnie. Glad to have more common sense on this thread.Now sit back and get ready for 5 pages of pro Palestinian spin

Let them come and spin all they like. I'll just keep educating them and correcting their revisionist history. Here's another one for you all to chew on:

In the entire Middle East, there are only 1.6 million Arabs who have COMPLETE political and religious freedom. All of them live in one Jewish state.

jonbond1779

It's evolution baby

VivaPalestina

Nope not Apartheid. This woman was evicted from her home and she is being taunted, by these non Apartheid equality loving...well no name for what they are.

PJ_Soul

Not saying that's not what's going on, but no one can say that is what's going on there either. I suggest you provide more info or evidence when posting such things. For all we know, those folks are all having a spirited sing-along and the woman is one of their grandmothers and keeping the beat with her serving tray.

Byrnzie

Business as usual for Israel: Shooting unarmed men, women, and children at will, and then attempting to justify and excuse it by reference to 'stone throwers'.
Murdering racist bastards.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/amnesty-international-israeli-war-crimes-palestinians-west-bank

Amnesty International accuses Israeli armed forces of possible war crimes

Human rights group says soldiers have killed dozens of Palestinians with virtual impunity in West Bank


Agencies in Jerusalem
theguardian.com, Thursday 27 February 2014



Israeli forces are using excessive, reckless violence in the occupied West Bank, killing dozens of Palestinians over the past three years in what might constitute a war crime, Amnesty International said.

In a report entitled Trigger Happy, the human rights group accused Israel of allowing its soldiers to act with virtual impunity and called for an independent review of the deaths.

The Israeli army dismissed the allegations, saying security forces had seen a "substantial increase" in Palestinian violence and Amnesty had revealed a "complete lack of understanding" about the difficulties soldiers faced.

According to UN data, 45 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank between 2011 and 2013, including six children. Amnesty said it had documented the deaths of 25 civilians during this period, all but three of whom died last year.

"The report presents a body of evidence that shows a harrowing pattern of unlawful killings and unwarranted injuries of Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces in the West Bank," said Philip Luther, the charity's director of the Middle East and north Africa programme.

Amnesty said that in none of the cases it reviewed did the Palestinians appear to be posing any imminent threat to life. "In some, there is evidence that they were victims of wilful killings, which would amount to war crimes," it said.

After a three-year hiatus Israelis and Palestinians resumed direct peace talks last July, which the Palestinians hope will give them an independent state on territory seized by Israel in the 1967 war, including the West Bank.

Although their decades-old conflict has become a low-intensity confrontation, violence still occurs regularly, with Palestinians accounting for the vast majority of casualties.

The 87-page report, published on Thursday, focused only on violence in the West Bank, not the Gaza Strip. It highlighted a number of the deaths, including that of Lubna Hanash, a 21-year-old who was shot in the head on 23 January 2013 as she left an agricultural college near the flashpoint city of Hebron.

Amnesty quoted witnesses saying a soldier opened fire 100 metres from where Hanash was standing. A relative standing alongside her was shot in the hand. Neither had been taking part in any protest.

A few days earlier, a 16-year-old schoolboy, Samir Awad, was shot three times, including in the back of the head, after staging a protest near the Israeli separation barrier that divides his village from its historical farmlands.

And Waji al-Ramahi, 15, was shot in the back from a distance of 200 metres in December near the Jalazun refugee camp, Amnesty said.

An Israeli army statement responding to the report did not refer to any specific incidents, but said 2013 had seen a sharp increase in rock-hurling incidents, which had injured 132 Israeli civilians and military personnel.

"Where feasible the IDF [Israel Defence Forces] contains this life-threatening violence using riot dispersal means," it said. "Only once these tools have been exhausted and human life and safety remains under threat, is the use of precision munition authorised."

The IDF said the report had compiled "carefully selected, unverifiable and often contradictory accounts from clearly politically motivated individuals, which it then reports as unquestioned facts".

Besides the numerous deaths, Amnesty said at least 261 Palestinians, including 67 children, were seriously injured by live ammunition fired by Israeli forces in the West Bank over the past three years.

More than 8,000 Palestinians were seriously injured by other means, including rubber-coated metal bullets, since January 2011, the report said.

During this period, just one Israeli soldier was convicted of wrongfully causing the death of a Palestinian – an unnamed staff sergeant who shot dead a man trying to enter Israel illegally in search of a job.

The soldier received a one-year prison sentence, with five months suspended, and was allowed to stay in the army, albeit at a lower rank, Amnesty said.

Three other investigations over the past three years were closed without indictments, five were closed but their findings were not revealed and 11 are still open.

"The current Israeli system has proved woefully inadequate," Luther said. "A strong message must be sent to Israeli soldiers and police officers that abuses will not go unpunished."

The IDF said it held itself to the highest of professional standards, adding that when there was suspicion of wrongdoing, it investigated and took action where appropriate".

Byrnzie

....

Byrnzie

JohnnieBeBlue said:

Sorry I'm just joining this thread late, but I hate seeing misinformation being spread. Israel is far from perfect, but it's light years better than the oppressive regimes elsewhere in the middle east, including the Palestinian Authority. Ask any Arab Israeli citizen if they would rather live under the rule of the PA, and I doubt you'll get any takers. In response to the above propaganda, I offer the following:

1: In 1946 the area was under British Administration, just as it had been under the administration of the Ottoman Empire previous to that. At no point in history was the land 'British'.

2: And the Palestinians didn't reject the partition plan in favour of war. They rejected it because it gave the 20% Jewish population control of 56% of the land. Also, Ben-Gurion and the rest of the Zionist leadership had no intention of accepting the Partition Plan either, as I already pointed out above.

Read on:

http://mneumann.tripod.com/mnisrael.htm

'...For one thing, there is no reason at all why the Palestinians should have felt themselves bound by British or Ottoman laws, which were imposed on them without their consent. For another, supposing the Zionists were "legally in Palestine," this only means that they were entitled to live there. It does not follow that they had legal grounds for imposing their sovereignty on the Palestinians, and they didn't. Fourth, and by far the most important, it really doesn't matter how Zionists imposed sovereignty; it matters that they imposed it. They had absolutely no right to do so, and the Palestinians had every right to resist that imposition. The sovereignty of an ethnic group over all other inhabitants within the territory it controls is an odious state of affairs that no amount of legalistic whitewashing can render any more legitimate.
Amir says that, had the Palestinians accepted partition, their state would be 57 years old, and there would be no Palestinian refugees. Had partition been accepted, there would have been an ethnic state in territory inhabited by the Palestinians. The Palestinians inhabiting this territory would then have had the choice so many did in fact have: to let another ethnic group hold the power of life and death over them, or to leave. Since not all Palestinians would have accepted subjugation, there would have been refugees even if partition had been accepted. Moreover, since many Zionists had no intention of settling for what was offered in partition, there can be no confidence that partition would have avoided more fighting, more refugees, and the denial of Palestinian statehood. Palestinians were of course aware of this at the time, and Ben Gurion was quite explicit about his intention in private. He wrote his son that:

"I am an enthusiastic advocate of the Jewish State, even if it involves partitioning Palestine now, because I work on the assumption that a partial Jewish State will not be the end, but the beginning. When we acquire 1,000 or 10,000 dunams of land, we are happy. Because this acquisition of land is important not only for its own sake, but because through it we are increasing our strength, and every increase in our strength helps us to acquire the whole country. The formation of a State, even if it is only a partial State, will be the greatest increase of strength we could have today, and it will constitute a powerful lever in our historic effort to redeem the country in its entirety."(Source: David Ben-Gurion, Letters to Paula, Aubrey Hodes, tr., Pittsburgh (University of Pittsburgh Press) 1971 [1968], 154f.)
So it is a myth, not even a plausible one, that partition was likely to give the Palestinians anything at all.'

3: No they weren't. They were temporary annexations.

4. Israel was created by the U.N in 1947. Read on:

'UN General Assembly Partition Resolution 181 of 1947, which established the Jewish state’s international legitimacy, also recognised the remaining Palestinian territory outside the new state’s borders as the equally legitimate patrimony of Palestine’s Arab population on which they were entitled to establish their own state, and it mapped the borders of that territory with great precision. Resolution 181’s affirmation of the right of Palestine’s Arab population to national self-determination was based on normative law and the democratic principles that grant statehood to the majority population. (At the time, Arabs constituted two-thirds of the population in Palestine.) This right does not evaporate because of delays in its implementation.'


So much for your 'Truth'.

Byrnzie

rr165892 said:

Nice Johnnie. Glad to have more common sense on this thread.Now sit back and get ready for 5 pages of pro Palestinian spin

You claim it's common sense, yet it's just a photo-shopped picture from some pro-Israel blog, that contains a bunch of lies. Why don't you just admit that you know nothing about the history of the region? Nothing. Just as you didn't even know that Israel has been engaged in an illegal military occupation since 1967.

Byrnzie

Ethnic cleansing & racism at it's finest:


"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.


"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.


"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.


"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)


"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.


"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.


"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.


"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988


"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.


"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian


"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online


"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
Former Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, on Dec. 17, 1982


"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."
First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion

"The Jewish State cannot exist without a special ideological content. We cannot exist for long like any other state whose main interests is to insure the welfare of its citizens." Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, New York Times, 14 July 1992

Byrnzie

....

Byrnzie

JohnnieBeBlue said:

Let them come and spin all they like. I'll just keep educating them and correcting their revisionist history. Here's another one for you all to chew on:

Sure, that photoshopped picture you posted from a blog is such a formidable piece of trustworthy evidence in your support of Israel's race war.

I suggest you try harder than that. (And in the meantime, can you provide a link to that source? IDF.com?)

JohnnieBeBlue said:

In the entire Middle East, there are only 1.6 million Arabs who have COMPLETE political and religious freedom. All of them live in one Jewish state.

I already rubbished that assertion above in this same thread. I suggest you read what people post.

rr165892

Byrnzie,You are letting your rascist anti Semitic true colors show.You obviously support those who engage in terror against innocent people and therefore are part of what's wrong not right with what we deal with in the world today.I respect your opinion,but couldn't disagree with your ideology more.You are starting to sound angry and bitter.

PJ_Soul

VivaPalestina said:

Nope not Apartheid. This woman was evicted from her home and she is being taunted, by these non Apartheid equality loving...well no name for what they are.

I am not making any statement that is pro-Israeli here, since I'm not pro-Israeli in any way, shape or for (nor am I pro-Palestinian. I'm anti both of them). But as someone who is wary of random photos that are contextualized for propaganda purposes, I wanted to post this quote that I found regarding this photo. Note that it was one of the guys in the photo who said this (but I will say that his explanation is a lot closer to what I thought it looked like when I first saw the photo):

"This is false propaganda. This is a case of a good photographer who documented our faces, mostly mine, at the right second. As we sang and celebrated in Sheikh Jarrah, the Arab woman came out of a house, banging on a pan, and tried to disturb our celebrations, so we raised our voices and sang louder as she came nearer. We did not yell at her or mock her. We simply tried to keep on celebrating and she tried to disturb us. The picture does not show several other women who banged on pots and tried to interfere with our celebrations."

Also, as reported in Arutz Sheva at the time, FlagDance marchers in 2010 received specific instructions to avoid confrontations with Arabs. Rabbi Yaakov Meidan, head of the Har Etzion Hesder Yeshiva, wrote an article for youth before the celebrations on avoiding incidents in the Hebrew Makor Rishon newspaper.

Drowned Out

Johnniebeblue: Your infographic seems to be leading you down the road of ‘a land without a people for a people without a land’….or ‘the Palestinian people don’t exist’….You can’t simply sweep the people of this region, and the treatment of them by Israel, under the rug…nor try to portray Israel as a defender of Arab rights….pretty sickening approach to this topic; even amongst Israelis supporters, this stance is usually reserved for only the most radical of ethnic nationalists, and supporters of ethnic cleansing.
Regardless of which colonialist power occupied the land prior to the partition plan, regardless of who occupied what after the 1967 war, regardless of the rights afforded to the select few Arabs who are able/want to obtain Israeli citizenship, the facts remain: Israel was created by the UN community, and they now tell us that the UN has no sway in the occupation, and hide behind US vetoes from the UNSC. ….Israel uses systemic discrimination, strategic land and water theft, economic terrorism, military actions, biblical fairy tales as historical support, radical nationalism, media manipulation, massive funding for foreign lobbies, and a host of other tools to ensure the ethnic demographics of their country. There is no disputing this. So spin history all you want – there is no justification for the treatment of non-jewish peoples in Israel; Palestinian arabs and Bedouins in particular.

Drowned Out

PJ_Soul said:

caifan82 said:

Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread.
I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.

Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.

Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.

caifan, thanks…. I’ve found forum discussions invaluable in learning about this conflict. It provides an opportunity for the 'other side' to say their piece in an on-going debate. For a long time I was daunted by it’s perceived complexity. I felt it was too difficult to ‘pick a side’. I was recommended a couple of documentaries that changed my mind and sparked my interest in learning more (Occupation 101, and Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land)…sooo….here is a list of documentaries for those interested. All of these films are worth checking out.


5 Broken Cameras – 2012 Academy Award nominee (Best Documentary)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K-mGWy9iUg
An extraordinary work of both cinematic and political activism, 5 Broken Cameras is a deeply personal, first-hand account of non-violent resistance in Bil'in, a West Bank village threatened by encroaching Israeli settlements. Shot almost entirely by Palestinian farmer Emad Burnat, who bought his first camera in 2005 to record the birth of his youngest son, the footage was later given to Israeli co-director Guy Davidi to edit. Structured around the violent destruction of each one of Burnat's cameras, the filmmakers' collaboration follows one family's evolution over five years of village turmoil. Burnat watches from behind the lens as olive trees are bulldozed, protests intensify, and lives are lost. "I feel like the camera protects me," he says, "but it's an illusion."

Occupation 101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LGogkbjpRw&list=PLD6D247076445907C
A thought-provoking and powerful documentary film on the current and historical root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unlike any other film ever produced on the conflict, "Occupation 101" presents a comprehensive analysis of the facts and hidden truths surrounding the never ending controversy and dispels many of its long-perceived myths and misconceptions.
The film covers a wide range of topics, which include, the first wave of Jewish immigration from Europe in the 1880's, the 1920 tensions, the 1948 war, the 1967 war, the first Intifada of 1987, the Oslo Peace Process, Settlement expansion, the role of the United States Government, the second Intifada of 2000, the separation barrier and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as well as many heart wrenching testimonials from victims of this tragedy.

Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAN5GjJKAac
Provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.

Budrus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axh6qvHCTLA
Budrus is an award-winning feature documentary film about a Palestinian community organizer, Ayed Morrar, who unites local Fatah and Hamas members along with Israeli supporters in an unarmed movement to save his village of Budrus from destruction by Israel’s Separation Barrier.

Defamation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yvTHaDYFcc
Intent on shaking up the ultimate 'sacred cow' for Jews, Israeli director Yoav Shamir embarks on a provocative - and at times irreverent - quest to answer the question, "What is anti-Semitism today?" Does it remain a dangerous and immediate threat? Or is it a scare tactic used by right-wing Zionists to discredit their critics? Speaking with an array of people from across the political spectrum (including the head of the Anti-Defamation League and its fiercest critic, author Norman Finkelstein) and traveling to places like Auschwitz (alongside Israeli school kids) and Brooklyn (to explore reports of violence against Jews), Shamir discovers the realities of anti-Semitism today. His findings are shocking, enlightening and - surprisingly - often wryly funny.

American Radical: the Trials of Norman Finkelstein
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-QiH0O8-Qg
Jewish-American Professor Norman Finkelstein vocalizes his criticism of Israeli policy and his views about what he refers to as the "Holocaust industry" in this documentary from filmmakers Nicolas Rossier and David Ridgen. The son of a Holocaust survivor, Finkelstein makes the controversial claim that the state of Israel uses anti-Semitism as a justification for committing war crimes, and that this troubling trend can be traced back to the Jewish state's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The film also takes the time to show how Professor Finkelstein's claims have landed him in the hot spot more than a few times, and resulted in the termination of his position at two prominent universities.

The Zionist Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLAitMq3zI
The Zionist Story, an independent film by Ronen Berelovich, is the story of ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid to produce a demographically Jewish State…
"I have recently finished an independent documentary, The Zionist Story, in which I aim to present not just the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but also the core reason for it: the Zionist ideology, its goals (past and present) and its firm grip not only on Israeli society, but also, increasingly, on the perception of Middle East issues in Western democracies. These concepts have already been demonstrated in the excellent 'Occupation 101′ documentary made by Abdallah Omeish and Sufyan Omeish, but in my documentary I approach the subject from the perspective of an Israeli, ex-reserve soldier and someone who has spent his entire life in the shadow of Zionism.

Louis Theroux: The Ultra Zionists
https://player.vimeo.com/video/42568730
Louis Theroux spends time with a small and very committed subculture of ultra-nationalist Jewish settlers. He discovers a group of people who consider it their religious and political obligation to populate some of the most sensitive and disputed areas of the West Bank, especially those with a spiritual significance dating back to the Bible.

Life in Occupied Palestine
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/life_in_occupied_palestine/
Anna Baltzer, a Jewish American, gives her eyewitness perspectives on average citizens living in occupied Palestine. Baltzer spent 5 months in the West Bank working with the International Women's Peace Service. Her presentation highlights how the Israeli government's policies have drastically and negatively affected normal Palestinian life, and how this perspective has been omitted from most news outlets in America. A must-see for anyone interested or curious in Israel/Palestine relations.

PJ_Soul

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

caifan82 said:

Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread.
I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.

Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.

Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.

Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.

Drowned Out

PJ_Soul said:

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

caifan82 said:

Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread.
I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.

Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.

Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.

Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.

Really? With all the posts in this thread, you choose an innocuous little 'thank you' note as a way to discredit opinions as biased? Considering it was directed 'specially to Byrnzie and I, I don't think you can say you meant ALL opinions are biased....but maybe you just didn't explain yourself well Come on woman
:P

PJ_Soul

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

caifan82 said:

Just wanted to post a quick "Thank You" here. Specially to Byrnzie and Drowned Out for the multiple articles, quotes and graphics that paint such a detailed picture of the the situation over there. My knowledge on this topic has always been rather shallow, but I'm learning quite a bit in this thread.
I hope the personal attacks don't get it closed, though... because it's been really interesting so far.

Well, keep in mind that a lot of information is very biased when it comes to this issue... take it all with a grain of salt.

Really? Kinda condescending....I'm sure he's capable of critical thinking and filtering bias on his own.

Really? With all the posts in this thread you choose that innocuous little comment to call out for being condescending? Come on man.

Really? With all the posts in this thread, you choose an innocuous little 'thank you' note as a way to discredit opinions as biased? Considering it was directed 'specially to Byrnzie and I, I don't think you can say you meant ALL opinions are biased....but maybe you just didn't explain yourself well Come on woman
:P

No, of course I didn't mean all opinions are biased, hence the term "take it with a grain of salt". In other words, there is a lot of information to pick through in this thread coming from both you and Byrnzie, and you have to admit (I hope) that at least some of it is biased..... although to be honest I was more talking about Byrnzie.