What's a living wage?

unsung

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

brianlux

A lot would depend on where one lives and whether or not sick leave and adequate medical coverage is included.

Here's an interesting Living Wage Calculator:

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

Using that calculator, the numbers for my location read:

Living Wage: $9.95 per hour
Poverty Wage: $5.21 per hour
Minimum Wage $8.00 per hour

A typical hourly wage for a fast food employee is $9.28 and thus numerous people are not earning a living wage in my area.

I've often recommend Barbara Ehrenreich's books Nickel and Dimed, and Bait and Switch for a good understanding of the subject by someone who has spent a great deal of time researching and studying it.

http://www.barbaraehrenreich.com/barbara_ehrenreich.htm

unsung

Eh, I'm against a minimum wage, and I don't see how someone who can't survive on min wage will find $1400 a year before taxes to be the amount that brings them above the line.

Min wage is that for a reason, they have no skills, why do they deserve to be paid so much when all they can do is wash dishes?

brianlux

Until the right people finally figured out what a brilliant musician he is, the amazing and incomparable pianist Cecil Taylor eked out a living washing dishes in New York City.

Besides, dish washers deserve to get paid at least a living wage so that people who can afford to eat out or are too busy or too lazy to clean up after themselves or just need the night off and want to go out and enjoy a meal out can do so. Same thing as far as pay goes for house and motel room cleaners and store clerks and dog kennel cleaners and all the other people who do the hard work that entitled and self-righteous people look down there noses at.

CAVSTARR313

I would rather someone be paid more by a business to work
than to have taxpayers pay somebody not to work, or supplement the rest needed to live

unsung

You call a group of people entitled and self righteous while trying to say that a dishwasher is entitled to a certain wage.

So I have an idea, let's just make the minimum wage $500/hr. Work for you?

brianlux

Whoa! Hiss!

Sure. I hope Mr Taylor is making a good living these days.

CAVSTARR313

When some of the richest people in the country are that way because of Walmart,
and a Walmart in Ohio holds a canned food drive for it own employees,
I would say something is wrong and a discussion should be had..

StevieG

I'm in Canada and I would set the minimum wage at $20 an hour, $12 for students.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

unsung wrote:

You call a group of people entitled and self righteous while trying to say that a dishwasher is entitled to a certain wage.

So I have an idea, let's just make the minimum wage $500/hr. Work for you?

you know as well as I do that the minimum wage is there for a reason.....to stop employee financial abuse. there's always someone who is willing to work for less. minimum wage (to a point) stops that practice.

unsung

So if Walmart were paying $1/hr because there was no minimum wage people would still fill the jobs?

even flow - question mark

unsung wrote:

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

As I read this thread I see that you have offered very little if anything to how much a living wage should be. But since you seem to like to slag somebody making a burger maybe you could explain away this below......

Comparing a guy who picks up my garbage or delivers my mail to the actual skills needed to throw together a burger, seem moot. All three take very little skill at all. But somehow two of em make pretty good money! Slander away!!!!!

backseatLover12

even flow - question mark wrote:

unsung wrote:

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

As I read this thread I see that you have offered very little if anything to how much a living wage should be. But since you seem to like to slag somebody making a burger maybe you could explain away this below......

Comparing a guy who picks up my garbage or delivers my mail to the actual skills needed to throw together a burger, seem moot. All three take very little skill at all. But somehow two of em make pretty good money! Slander away!!!!!

Both jobs you mention require physical labor. And you'd be surprised at how labor intensive a mail carrier's job is. It isn't spring and roses and you might imagine.

The OP's issues with others and living wages says more about him than it does anything else. Everyone deserves to make wages in order to survive. But apparently some people have issue with that. :roll:

What's the beef, OP? Why would you rather prefer people who struggle to make a living end up in extreme poverty? (that's what you're proposing)

even flow - question mark

backseatLover12 wrote:

even flow - question mark wrote:

unsung wrote:

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

As I read this thread I see that you have offered very little if anything to how much a living wage should be. But since you seem to like to slag somebody making a burger maybe you could explain away this below......

Comparing a guy who picks up my garbage or delivers my mail to the actual skills needed to throw together a burger, seem moot. All three take very little skill at all. But somehow two of em make pretty good money! Slander away!!!!!

Both jobs you mention require physical labor. And you'd be surprised at how labor intensive a mail carrier's job is. It isn't spring and roses and you might imagine.

The OP's issues with others and living wages says more about him than it does anything else. Everyone deserves to make wages in order to survive. But apparently some people have issue with that. :roll:

What's the beef, OP? Why would you rather prefer people who struggle to make a living end up in extreme poverty? (that's what you're proposing)

To quote the first poster. If your only strength is strength and tossing garbage around, or slogging mail, (like throwing a burger together) how much should you really earn?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

unsung wrote:

Eh, I'm against a minimum wage, and I don't see how someone who can't survive on min wage will find $1400 a year before taxes to be the amount that brings them above the line.

Min wage is that for a reason, they have no skills, why do they deserve to be paid so much when all they can do is wash dishes?

It's not deserve. It's settling on something that is reasonable given the amount of money a company is going to make on the backs of these 'unskilled' people you speak of.

I guess you would rather corporate fat cats born to privilege hoard all the cash while minimum wage servants busy themselves at the bottom of the corporate chain? Sounds like what is going on right now and look at the great results of this: poverty, broken families, mothers working two jobs and unable to raise their kids, kids not going to school, people resorting to crime, and anger at the establishment.

The American Dream!

Fuck me. You don't get it, man. Geezuz what is wrong with people? Holy shit.

unsung

Let's be honest, corporate fat cats are going to get their cut no matter what. It's irrelevant if their minions make $5/hr or $50/hr, they won't suffer.

Yes I do believe that someone that has invested in themselves should earn more than someone who is 40 and flips burgers part time. I don't think of them as lesser humans, but they don't have skills, and their pay directly reflects that.

If Walmart offered $1/hr would people work there?

If Walmart offered $5/hr would people work there?

So Walmart offers $8/hr (fed min wage iirc) and the jobs fill.

But why? Why does $8 get what $5 can't? Because that's what they can get away with by law. People take those jobs because they know that's all that has to be offered. But I'm asking what if. What if there were no min wage? I think we can agree that nobody would work for $1/hr. What if people held out together for $10/hr? Guess what, Walmart would be forced to pay it. The way it works now all they have to do is offer the min and say take it or leave it.

If there were no min wage the employees would have the bargaining chip because they could hold out for better pay. With the min wage the company has the power, and feels that's all they have to offer. The market works better for the worker when the worker is holding the cards.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

unsung wrote:

Let's be honest, corporate fat cats are going to get their cut no matter what. It's irrelevant if their minions make $5/hr or $50/hr, they won't suffer.

Yes I do believe that someone that has invested in themselves should earn more than someone who is 40 and flips burgers part time. I don't think of them as lesser humans, but they don't have skills, and their pay directly reflects that.

If Walmart offered $1/hr would people work there?

If Walmart offered $5/hr would people work there?

So Walmart offers $8/hr (fed min wage iirc) and the jobs fill.

But why? Why does $8 get what $5 can't? Because that's what they can get away with by law. People take those jobs because they know that's all that has to be offered. But I'm asking what if. What if there were no min wage? I think we can agree that nobody would work for $1/hr. What if people held out together for $10/hr? Guess what, Walmart would be forced to pay it. The way it works now all they have to do is offer the min and say take it or leave it.

If there were no min wage the employees would have the bargaining chip because they could hold out for better pay. With the min wage the company has the power, and feels that's all they have to offer. The market works better for the worker when the worker is holding the cards.

no, we cannot agree that no one would work for $1/hr. If there was no social assistance, then yes, people would fill those jobs, much like people in other countries work for pennies a day do. Those people aren't banding together and demanding more, because they can't go hungry waiting for the fat cats to buckle. What you're suggesting is that people do what they can't afford to do; the whole collective go on strike when 90% of them can't afford to miss an hour of work, never mind days or weeks.

polaris_x

living wages is part of a social infrastructure that recognizes that collectively, as a society, everyone is better off when everyone else prospers ... it achieves this through collective priorities such as health care, education and wages ...

the purpose of a living wage is also symbolic of a society that believes everyone should not go hungry and that they have the basic necessities of life ...

it is also a recognition that the world is interconnected in many ways and that how we treat the working class has consequences beyond profit and loss statements ...

polaris_x

unsung wrote:

If there were no min wage the employees would have the bargaining chip because they could hold out for better pay. With the min wage the company has the power, and feels that's all they have to offer. The market works better for the worker when the worker is holding the cards.

c'mon ... under what logic does this hold true? ... this makes no sense ... if the workers had the power as you suggest - there would be no need for a min. wage ...

brianlux

It's true, corporate fat cats usually do get their cut, but that doesn't mean their employees can't do well by their employees and live well also. A shining example of this is Yvon Chouinard and his company, Patagonia. His book from 2005, Let My People Go Surfing is inspiring on a number of levels, particularly with regard to business ethics and environmental responsibility. I wish all employers would read Chouinard's book (and Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed).

Here are some excerpts from an article Chouinard wrote (related to his book) for Outside Magazine:

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... rfing.html

This kind of independent thinking applies to our management philosophy as well. In fact, our employees are so independent, we've been told by psychologists, that they would be considered unemployable in a typical company. We don't want drones who will simply follow directions. We want the kind of employees who will question the wisdom of something they regard as a bad decision but, once they buy into something, will work like demons to produce something of the highest possible quality—whether a shirt, a catalog, a store display, or a computer program. How you get these highly individualistic people to align and work for a common cause is the art of management at Patagonia.

Part of the key is strong communication. We have no private offices at our Ventura headquarters; everyone works in open rooms with no doors or separations. What we lose in "quiet thinking space" is more than made up for with better communication and an egalitarian atmosphere. Managers try to lead by example. We don't have special parking places; the best spots are reserved for fuel-efficient cars, no matter who owns them. Malinda and I pay for our own lunches in the cafeteria, so that we don't send a message that it's OK to take from the company. And we have an open-book policy; financial details are available with all employees to promote full transparency.

A familial company like ours runs on trust rather than authoritarian rule. Maybe a few people take advantage of our flextime and our "let my people go surfing" policy, but none of our best employees would want to work in a company that didn't have that trust. They understand that my M.B.A. style of management is as much a sign of my trust in them as my desire to be out of the office.

And I like his quote from David Brower at the end of the article: "There's no business to be done on a dead planet."

lukin2006

here's the problem as I see it ... the people at Wal Mart or Mc Donalds working on the front lines are more important to those business's than many people higher up, they may not have a skill with a college degree. I would counter that the front line workers in the service industry contribute more to the success of their business than a dude in marketing or accounting at said business.

in Canada living wage should be set at between 15-20 an hour ... I have no idea how someone survives off 10.25 an hour in Ontario where I live, not to mention places like Toronto, I suspect many visit the food bank.

unsung

Let's just pay everyone no matter what their job title or education $500/hr. Everyone is rich.

What could possibly go wrong? :roll:

lukin2006

unsung wrote:

Let's just pay everyone no matter what their job title or education $500/hr. Everyone is rich.

What could possibly go wrong? :roll:

:fp: :fp: :fp:

Hugh Freaking Dillon

lukin2006 wrote:

unsung wrote:

Let's just pay everyone no matter what their job title or education $500/hr. Everyone is rich.

What could possibly go wrong? :roll:

:fp: :fp: :fp:

I second that and raise you a :roll:

Jason P

lukin2006 wrote:

here's the problem as I see it ... the people at Wal Mart or Mc Donalds working on the front lines are more important to those business's than many people higher up, they may not have a skill with a college degree. I would counter that the front line workers in the service industry contribute more to the success of their business than a dude in marketing or accounting at said business.

in Canada living wage should be set at between 15-20 an hour ... I have no idea how someone survives off 10.25 an hour in Ontario where I live, not to mention places like Toronto, I suspect many visit the food bank.

$20/hr is how much I made an hour after getting an engineering degree a decade ago.

Now that I think about it is even more because I was salary and working around 60 hours a week.

puremagic

unsung wrote:

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

You can't be this naive. You make an assumption that these people are only mentally capable of working at a fast food place. Throughout your postings, not once do you offer any discussion as to options or opportunities that are available to the average faces working in fast food places. You need to pay attention to some of the unemployment #s; they’re acceptable because people are taking part-time jobs, fast food jobs, seasonal jobs, jobs that offer a paycheck not a living wage.

As someone posted – what advance skill set does it take to be a trash collector or postal delivery person that is not possessed by many of the workers at a fast food place? NONE. The difference between the trash collector and the postal worker wages vs. the fast food worker wages is their UNION.

Yet, if things keep going the way of Wisconsin, State union workers, will soon be just as dependent on supplemental social welfare programs as fast food workers and military families.

As another person posted – is the Wal-Mart practice that maintains the bulk of its workers at poverty-level wages which makes Wal-Mart workers eligible for social welfare programs while allowing Wal-Mart to forego having to pay full or partial benefit packages to these workers fair to the taxpayer, NO. Yet, instead of going after Wal-Mart (too big to fail) we go after the people trying to earn legitimate wages.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

puremagic wrote:

unsung wrote:

Be specific. How much should someone who has no skills other than assembling a Big Mac earn?

You can't be this naive.

correct. he's not. he's trolling again. he must be bored.

Last-12-Exit

lukin2006 wrote:

here's the problem as I see it ... the people at Wal Mart or Mc Donalds working on the front lines are more important to those business's than many people higher up, they may not have a skill with a college degree. I would counter that the front line workers in the service industry contribute more to the success of their business than a dude in marketing or accounting at said business.

in Canada living wage should be set at between 15-20 an hour ... I have no idea how someone survives off 10.25 an hour in Ontario where I live, not to mention places like Toronto, I suspect many visit the food bank.

The workers that manufacture goods are way more important than the people who sell them.

Vitalogensia

I have a friend who was working as an endoscopy technician. Several times she had her hands inside someone, where one wrong move meant possibly puncturing someone's bowels. She was paid between $10-12 an hour. Thought I'd throw that out there for pondering.

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

Let's be honest, corporate fat cats are going to get their cut no matter what. It's irrelevant if their minions make $5/hr or $50/hr, they won't suffer.

Yes I do believe that someone that has invested in themselves should earn more than someone who is 40 and flips burgers part time. I don't think of them as lesser humans, but they don't have skills, and their pay directly reflects that.

If Walmart offered $1/hr would people work there?

If Walmart offered $5/hr would people work there?

So Walmart offers $8/hr (fed min wage iirc) and the jobs fill.

But why? Why does $8 get what $5 can't? Because that's what they can get away with by law. People take those jobs because they know that's all that has to be offered. But I'm asking what if. What if there were no min wage? I think we can agree that nobody would work for $1/hr. What if people held out together for $10/hr? Guess what, Walmart would be forced to pay it. The way it works now all they have to do is offer the min and say take it or leave it.

If there were no min wage the employees would have the bargaining chip because they could hold out for better pay. With the min wage the company has the power, and feels that's all they have to offer. The market works better for the worker when the worker is holding the cards.

...
Can I ask... What do you do for a living?
Why can't your company... the entire market slash your high wages and hire some that is capable of doing your job... for a lot less money?
I am certain that you are not at the top of your field and there are many others willing to wdo the same work.. for less pay.

Gern Blansten

I always find these arguments interesting.

As if it's really harder to drive a truck, pick up garbage, be a meter maid, etc. than it is to work at McDonald's and be good at what you do.

This economy demands that some people simply take what they can get. It's pathetic that someone could conceivably work two full time jobs at minimum wage and still only make $29,000/year.