Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The Redskins name in particular is regularly and rightfully protested against. The POTUS himself recently chimed in the issue. No one is dragged off to jail for such criticisms.
The topic of Islam and the treatment of women in the Muslim world is a sensitive one. I understand the first reaction to be defensive when these topics come up. Religions in general are often a difficult thing to discuss. I don't think looking for similar examples in American history adds much to the discussion though. Today, in 2013, women are being charged with adultery, given sham trials, and sentenced to death by public stoning. Death by public stoning. This should be shocking and sickening to us all. Wherever it is happening in the world, in whatever culture it is happening, it should be condemned.
My point has been missed, and I was not trying to condone anything.There is no one on here including myself who has condoned the practice, what more of a condemnation could there be when Muslims have said that this is not Islam, that is the practice of a patriarchal society who has sought to use and misuse power. Where in the US constitution does it say that innocent men should be electrocuted until their eyeballs fall out, but it has indeed happened because of men in power have interpretated a document meant to bring to heel the abuses and oppression of the masses as free reign to execute poor minorities. I think given the injustice in the world, the East and West, we all have work to do.
I think my point has been missed. Of course there is work to do in the West as well. That said, in my opinion, comparing the trial, conviction, sentencing of, say, a child murderer, and allowing the accused countless appeals before the sentence is carried out DOES NOT IN ANYWAY equate with what happens to these women. The "Yeah...but...America has problems too" argument dismisses the shocking barbarity of these sham trials and executions. Death by public stoning. In 2013. Think about that. Once accused, these women never have a chance. The accusation alone is a death sentence, and that doesn't even touch on the issue of what they are being accused of. That does not happen here. Making comparisons to the existing death penalty in the US is a huge stretch.
I think my point has been missed. Of course there is work to do in the West as well. That said, in my opinion, comparing the trial, conviction, sentencing of, say, a child murderer, and allowing the accused countless appeals before the sentence is carried out DOES NOT IN ANYWAY equate with what happens to these women. The "Yeah...but...America has problems too" argument dismisses the shocking barbarity of these sham trials and executions. Death by public stoning. In 2013. Think about that. Once accused, these women never have a chance. The accusation alone is a death sentence, and that doesn't even touch on the issue of what they are being accused of. That does not happen here. Making comparisons to the existing death penalty in the US is a huge stretch.
I'm in agreement with this statement.
I'm of the opinion this thread is legitimate and not an isolated, hate driven thread that some might make it out to be. For example, the problems in the west are far from being ignored: there is a 90 page thread on the death penalty in this very forum and various prominent western religions have faced scrutiny here as well.
But ignoring the problems in the west for the moment that this thread allows, the fact that these 'public executions' are court and state sanctioned, at the very least, questions are begged and criticism is warranted from those who find such acts reprehensible.
Did I miss something where this thread shifted its focus from the acts carried out under the name of religion to painting all Muslims as evil? If so, we should correct that generalization. But these acts highlighted in this thread are indefensible.
so is homosexuality good to go in islam? i've read in some countries one can legally act on their homosexuality where in other muslim-majority countries, the death penalty gets after you if you are homosexual & those countries are Mauritania, Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
a man can kill his wife under certain conditions. watch the videos i posted just recently. sure it is a video & could be false & propaganda but i would bet they are very real & not at all false. i got get videos & repost
http://youtu.be/ibmaiIGr56w - homosexuality in islam.... not a good idea
this imam says this homosexual man cannot be buried in a muslim graveyard because he is homosexual
The Redskins name in particular is regularly and rightfully protested against. The POTUS himself recently chimed in the issue. No one is dragged off to jail for such criticisms.
The topic of Islam and the treatment of women in the Muslim world is a sensitive one. I understand the first reaction to be defensive when these topics come up. Religions in general are often a difficult thing to discuss. I don't think looking for similar examples in American history adds much to the discussion though. Today, in 2013, women are being charged with adultery, given sham trials, and sentenced to death by public stoning. Death by public stoning. This should be shocking and sickening to us all. Wherever it is happening in the world, in whatever culture it is happening, it should be condemned.
My point has been missed, and I was not trying to condone anything.There is no one on here including myself who has condoned the practice, what more of a condemnation could there be when Muslims have said that this is not Islam, that is the practice of a patriarchal society who has sought to use and misuse power. Where in the US constitution does it say that innocent men should be electrocuted until their eyeballs fall out, but it has indeed happened because of men in power have interpretated a document meant to bring to heel the abuses and oppression of the masses as free reign to execute poor minorities. I think given the injustice in the world, the East and West, we all have work to do.
I think my point has been missed. Of course there is work to do in the West as well. That said, in my opinion, comparing the trial, conviction, sentencing of, say, a child murderer, and allowing the accused countless appeals before the sentence is carried out DOES NOT IN ANYWAY equate with what happens to these women. The "Yeah...but...America has problems too" argument dismisses the shocking barbarity of these sham trials and executions. Death by public stoning. In 2013. Think about that. Once accused, these women never have a chance. The accusation alone is a death sentence, and that doesn't even touch on the issue of what they are being accused of. That does not happen here. Making comparisons to the existing death penalty in the US is a huge stretch.
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDEMNEDand have been CONDEMNED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condemn that?
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDONED and have been CONDONED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condone that?
This is a confusing post.
The people being put to death via death penalty have raped and murdered women and children. Many 'scholars' and many people think this is more than a fair consequence for such brutal acts of violence.
Women being stoned to death for infidelity is hardly the same thing.
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDONED and have been CONDONED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condone that?
This is a confusing post.
The people being put to death via death penalty have raped and murdered women and children. Many 'scholars' and many people think this is more than a fair consequence for such brutal acts of violence.
Women being stoned to death for infidelity is hardly the same thing.
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDONED and have been CONDONED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condone that?
This is a confusing post.
The people being put to death via death penalty have raped and murdered women and children. Many 'scholars' and many people think this is more than a fair consequence for such brutal acts of violence.
Women being stoned to death for infidelity is hardly the same thing.
I know way off topic but what about the innocent men that are put to death in the US? Collateral damage?
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDONED and have been CONDONED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condone that?
This is a confusing post.
The people being put to death via death penalty have raped and murdered women and children. Many 'scholars' and many people think this is more than a fair consequence for such brutal acts of violence.
Women being stoned to death for infidelity is hardly the same thing.
I know way off topic but what about the innocent men that are put to death in the US? Collateral damage?
This number is extremely small and debatable, but any innocent man put to death is unacceptable in any form or fashion.
With incredible advances in forensic science- the same science that is currently being used to pardon many who are wrongfully convicted- we are getting to the point where we can assure ourselves of people's guilt.
I think there is a major disconnect between what we're actually discussing here.
First of all, the reason I and I think many others doubted the sincerity of the person who started this topic is this: take a look at the thread title, and the OP. It seems very clear that the person was asking about Islam (and specifically the Qur'an)'s view of women, stoning, and all these other issues that have been brought up in this thread (punishments for crimes such as theft, etc). Many of us have tried to explain the Islamic and Qur'anic perspectives on these issues using historical evidence, clear references to the texts, and what various interpretations of scholars on the more 'controversial' verses. Chadwick did not once try to engage us regarding our answers, but instead would either arbitrarily reference an obscure story occurring in some part of the world or link us to some youtube video of a nobody who calls himself "imam" going off on an idiotic rant about something. Tell me--is this what a discussion is supposed to look like?
The problem is: chadwick is pretending to be curious about what Islam says, but he responds to the answers he's given with what various, random (to the point of where I've never heard of them and they need youtube to give them a platform--and often, their videos have more "dislikes" than "likes") Muslims say. You see the difference? I doubt chadwick does, because in the OP he admitted himself to not even knowing the difference between "Islam" and "Muslim." It seems that the idea of a random Muslim having an opinion that is at odds with what Islam says goes beyond chadwick's comprehension.
Furthermore, you yourself and many others on here seem to be missing VivaPalestina's point. First, I think to simplify the death penalty as it is practiced in Western countries to "you murder/rape, then you get punished" is problematic because it ignores the abuse that is associated with this. There are very clear systematic and institutional policies that discriminate against minorities in this country, and often lead to their social disenfranchisement or even, yes, them being killed. Many are on deathrow unjustly, despite the amazing achievements of modern science, due to these policies. I know it's easy to ignore the fact that these policies exist when you're not one of these minorities, but maybe you should get out your copy of Vs. and listen to WMA again. Take a look at the reports of NYPD spying on Muslims, take a look at the various stories of FBI entrapment in terror cases, or just read one fucking article about the way African Americans are disenfranchised and often given insane sentences for crimes (sometimes crimes they did not even commit).
The point is this: if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
If we instead want to talk about the motivations or causes of these unjust punishments taking place, because you reeeally want to differentiate and you just cannot accept that these 2 cases are similar, then we have to go back to the original question that this thread presented: Is Islam to blame for the few cases of stonings that have taken place? We have already presented sufficient evidence in my opinion to show that it is not. I have yet to receive a response suggesting it is. Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
If you want to learn about what qur'an says about women why don't you buy yourself one?
You can learn first hand instead of being based on anyone's perspective.
If you are too bored to read it then don't bother yourself with this issue.
If you want to learn about what qur'an says about women why don't you buy yourself one?
You can learn first hand instead of being based on anyone's perspective.
If you are too bored to read it then don't bother yourself with this issue.
If you want to learn about what qur'an says about women why don't you buy yourself one?
You can learn first hand instead of being based on anyone's perspective.
If you are too bored to read it then don't bother yourself with this issue.
Listen to this woman! :thumbup:
But people have youtube videos!! Explanations must be forthcoming!
I think there is a major disconnect between what we're actually discussing here.
First of all, the reason I and I think many others doubted the sincerity of the person who started this topic is this: take a look at the thread title, and the OP. It seems very clear that the person was asking about Islam (and specifically the Qur'an)'s view of women, stoning, and all these other issues that have been brought up in this thread (punishments for crimes such as theft, etc). Many of us have tried to explain the Islamic and Qur'anic perspectives on these issues using historical evidence, clear references to the texts, and what various interpretations of scholars on the more 'controversial' verses. Chadwick did not once try to engage us regarding our answers, but instead would either arbitrarily reference an obscure story occurring in some part of the world or link us to some youtube video of a nobody who calls himself "imam" going off on an idiotic rant about something. Tell me--is this what a discussion is supposed to look like?
The problem is: chadwick is pretending to be curious about what Islam says, but he responds to the answers he's given with what various, random (to the point of where I've never heard of them and they need youtube to give them a platform--and often, their videos have more "dislikes" than "likes") Muslims say. You see the difference? I doubt chadwick does, because in the OP he admitted himself to not even knowing the difference between "Islam" and "Muslim." It seems that the idea of a random Muslim having an opinion that is at odds with what Islam says goes beyond chadwick's comprehension.
Furthermore, you yourself and many others on here seem to be missing VivaPalestina's point. First, I think to simplify the death penalty as it is practiced in Western countries to "you murder/rape, then you get punished" is problematic because it ignores the abuse that is associated with this. There are very clear systematic and institutional policies that discriminate against minorities in this country, and often lead to their social disenfranchisement or even, yes, them being killed. Many are on deathrow unjustly, despite the amazing achievements of modern science, due to these policies. I know it's easy to ignore the fact that these policies exist when you're not one of these minorities, but maybe you should get out your copy of Vs. and listen to WMA again. Take a look at the reports of NYPD spying on Muslims, take a look at the various stories of FBI entrapment in terror cases, or just read one fucking article about the way African Americans are disenfranchised and often given insane sentences for crimes (sometimes crimes they did not even commit).
The point is this: if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
If we instead want to talk about the motivations or causes of these unjust punishments taking place, because you reeeally want to differentiate and you just cannot accept that these 2 cases are similar, then we have to go back to the original question that this thread presented: Is Islam to blame for the few cases of stonings that have taken place? We have already presented sufficient evidence in my opinion to show that it is not. I have yet to receive a response suggesting it is. Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
I am not going to deny that discrimination against minorities does exist. And I would tell you that such behaviour is unacceptable- there is a social movement to raise awareness for the inequities that exist. But don't tell us that the DP is almost exclusive for minorities- the last two high profile executions I have read about were white males. In the DP thread, the people I have argued that need to be executed are white (Olson, Pickton, Shearing). The crime is in question from my perspective- not the color of one's skin.
When you say:
if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
and
Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
It doesn't sound as if you are as strongly opposed to some of the practices some people have been objecting to.
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
This exactly.
It does not make me a hypocrite to condemn this practice of public stoning of women whose only "crime" is adultery and whose fate was sealed the second their loving husband made the accusation. Say what you will about the death penalty in the West. (We have a thread for it here on AMT. Come join the debate.) What every convicted felon on death row has in common with each other that they do not have in common with these poor women is that they were accused, tried, and convicted for a terrible crime, often no less than multiple murder. You cannot say the same for any woman who faces this horrible fate of public stoning. Again...public stoning. In 20fucking13.
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
This exactly.
It does not make me a hypocrite to condemn this practice of public stoning of women whose only "crime" is adultery and whose fate was sealed the second their loving husband made the accusation. Say what you will about the death penalty in the West. (We have a thread for it here on AMT. Come join the debate.) What every convicted felon on death row has in common with each other that they do not have in common with these poor women is that they were accused, tried, and convicted for a terrible crime, often no less than multiple murder. You cannot say the same for any woman who faces this horrible fate of public stoning. Again...public stoning. In 20fucking13.
I think there is a major disconnect between what we're actually discussing here.
First of all, the reason I and I think many others doubted the sincerity of the person who started this topic is this: take a look at the thread title, and the OP. It seems very clear that the person was asking about Islam (and specifically the Qur'an)'s view of women, stoning, and all these other issues that have been brought up in this thread (punishments for crimes such as theft, etc). Many of us have tried to explain the Islamic and Qur'anic perspectives on these issues using historical evidence, clear references to the texts, and what various interpretations of scholars on the more 'controversial' verses. Chadwick did not once try to engage us regarding our answers, but instead would either arbitrarily reference an obscure story occurring in some part of the world or link us to some youtube video of a nobody who calls himself "imam" going off on an idiotic rant about something. Tell me--is this what a discussion is supposed to look like?
The problem is: chadwick is pretending to be curious about what Islam says, but he responds to the answers he's given with what various, random (to the point of where I've never heard of them and they need youtube to give them a platform--and often, their videos have more "dislikes" than "likes") Muslims say. You see the difference? I doubt chadwick does, because in the OP he admitted himself to not even knowing the difference between "Islam" and "Muslim." It seems that the idea of a random Muslim having an opinion that is at odds with what Islam says goes beyond chadwick's comprehension.
Furthermore, you yourself and many others on here seem to be missing VivaPalestina's point. First, I think to simplify the death penalty as it is practiced in Western countries to "you murder/rape, then you get punished" is problematic because it ignores the abuse that is associated with this. There are very clear systematic and institutional policies that discriminate against minorities in this country, and often lead to their social disenfranchisement or even, yes, them being killed. Many are on deathrow unjustly, despite the amazing achievements of modern science, due to these policies. I know it's easy to ignore the fact that these policies exist when you're not one of these minorities, but maybe you should get out your copy of Vs. and listen to WMA again. Take a look at the reports of NYPD spying on Muslims, take a look at the various stories of FBI entrapment in terror cases, or just read one fucking article about the way African Americans are disenfranchised and often given insane sentences for crimes (sometimes crimes they did not even commit).
The point is this: if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
If we instead want to talk about the motivations or causes of these unjust punishments taking place, because you reeeally want to differentiate and you just cannot accept that these 2 cases are similar, then we have to go back to the original question that this thread presented: Is Islam to blame for the few cases of stonings that have taken place? We have already presented sufficient evidence in my opinion to show that it is not. I have yet to receive a response suggesting it is. Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
notice the key words - "Muslim extremists who hide behind Islam's Sharia laws."
"extremists" & "sharia law"
i am 100% certain not all muslim are nasty little shits. these fuckers which this thread is about are.
how much simpler can it be to understand? i am not saying at all that every single muslim is a monster. no no no.
these extremist assholes are cruel
extremist muslim men who think they are big & mighty & bully women & kids around should be beat with a switch 500 times too just like they give these women their 500 lashes. see how they like it
can a person even survive 500 lashes with some badass medieval fucking switch being flung around by some hateful fucking bastard? he needs that switch placed up his fat ass
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
This exactly.
It does not make me a hypocrite to condemn this practice of public stoning of women whose only "crime" is adultery and whose fate was sealed the second their loving husband made the accusation. Say what you will about the death penalty in the West. (We have a thread for it here on AMT. Come join the debate.) What every convicted felon on death row has in common with each other that they do not have in common with these poor women is that they were accused, tried, and convicted for a terrible crime, often no less than multiple murder. You cannot say the same for any woman who faces this horrible fate of public stoning. Again...public stoning. In 20fucking13.
Yet the response is "Yeah...but...America..."
No, the response is not But America, it's AND America, both are different, both are wrong, I can admit that both ate wrong, you can not, when you say child murderers, I think Damien Echols who sat on death row, no DNA, a sham trial and a persecution that wasted half his life....so it's AND America. I have no problem condemning the death penalty in both environments, it's evident that you do.
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
This exactly.
It does not make me a hypocrite to condemn this practice of public stoning of women whose only "crime" is adultery and whose fate was sealed the second their loving husband made the accusation. Say what you will about the death penalty in the West. (We have a thread for it here on AMT. Come join the debate.) What every convicted felon on death row has in common with each other that they do not have in common with these poor women is that they were accused, tried, and convicted for a terrible crime, often no less than multiple murder. You cannot say the same for any woman who faces this horrible fate of public stoning. Again...public stoning. In 20fucking13.
Yet the response is "Yeah...but...America..."
No, the response is not But America, it's AND America, both are different, both are wrong, I can admit that both ate wrong, you can not, when you say child murderers, I think Damien Echols who sat on death row, no DNA, a sham trial and a persecution that wasted half his life....so it's AND America. I have no problem condemning the death penalty in both environments, it's evident that you do.
I guess you're right if you oppose the death penalty and you compare adultery with, say, murdering children. :?
Let alone the method of execution... do you seriously fail to see the difference in the application of the death penalty in the 'two environments'? You are losing credibility (at least with me) pursuing this argument.
I in no way meant to lessen the severity of what was happening to these women. That was never my point. Since that it's how it's coming across...and I believe the thread did start disingenuously, I won't add anymore to it.
I in no way meant to lessen the severity of what was happening to these women. That was never my point. Since that it's how it's coming across...and I believe the thread did start disingenuously, I won't add anymore to it.
I fully understand the mistake people are making by generalizing radical Muslim behaviour to all Muslims. I can certainly understand why some might feel defensive given this- I have come to the defence of some of our Muslim contributors when unfairly attacked on this forum. I have nothing against Muslim people, but I have a lot against cruel and unfair treatment of women.
Regardless of how one might be personally affected by general criticisms that do not apply to them, I don't think it is reasonable or appropriate to in any way rationalize the extreme behaviours that have been pointed out in this thread. Stoning a woman to death or whipping them is medieval in nature: these behaviours are deplorable and need to stop. It has been put to me that there is no simple answer to the complexity of the situation, however I don't know exactly what 'complex answer' I might hear that would have me understand why such actions would be condoned.
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I have heard this as well.
I think my point has been missed. Of course there is work to do in the West as well. That said, in my opinion, comparing the trial, conviction, sentencing of, say, a child murderer, and allowing the accused countless appeals before the sentence is carried out DOES NOT IN ANYWAY equate with what happens to these women. The "Yeah...but...America has problems too" argument dismisses the shocking barbarity of these sham trials and executions. Death by public stoning. In 2013. Think about that. Once accused, these women never have a chance. The accusation alone is a death sentence, and that doesn't even touch on the issue of what they are being accused of. That does not happen here. Making comparisons to the existing death penalty in the US is a huge stretch.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I'm in agreement with this statement.
I'm of the opinion this thread is legitimate and not an isolated, hate driven thread that some might make it out to be. For example, the problems in the west are far from being ignored: there is a 90 page thread on the death penalty in this very forum and various prominent western religions have faced scrutiny here as well.
But ignoring the problems in the west for the moment that this thread allows, the fact that these 'public executions' are court and state sanctioned, at the very least, questions are begged and criticism is warranted from those who find such acts reprehensible.
Did I miss something where this thread shifted its focus from the acts carried out under the name of religion to painting all Muslims as evil? If so, we should correct that generalization. But these acts highlighted in this thread are indefensible.
a man can kill his wife under certain conditions. watch the videos i posted just recently. sure it is a video & could be false & propaganda but i would bet they are very real & not at all false. i got get videos & repost
http://youtu.be/ibmaiIGr56w - homosexuality in islam.... not a good idea
this imam says this homosexual man cannot be buried in a muslim graveyard because he is homosexual
http://youtu.be/Dtfi0LGvYR8 - a man can kill his wife
i am pretty sure this isn't propaganda
http://youtu.be/Q5t9U9r9Kfs - explanation
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Your being a hypocrite, when innocent men, minorites are killed its always wrong, because the great "democracy" in the past 30 years has found a way to "humanely", what is humane about pumping poison into someone, do it, "sham trials" are more widespread in the US then these isolated incidents, which are CONDEMNEDand have been CONDEMNED repeatedly, Scholars have been quoted, that this is an unjust practice, it is not representative of Islam, and men can use any document to justify killing innocents. The death penalty is wrong, can you admit, condemn that?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
This is a confusing post.
The people being put to death via death penalty have raped and murdered women and children. Many 'scholars' and many people think this is more than a fair consequence for such brutal acts of violence.
Women being stoned to death for infidelity is hardly the same thing.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I know way off topic but what about the innocent men that are put to death in the US? Collateral damage?
This number is extremely small and debatable, but any innocent man put to death is unacceptable in any form or fashion.
With incredible advances in forensic science- the same science that is currently being used to pardon many who are wrongfully convicted- we are getting to the point where we can assure ourselves of people's guilt.
First of all, the reason I and I think many others doubted the sincerity of the person who started this topic is this: take a look at the thread title, and the OP. It seems very clear that the person was asking about Islam (and specifically the Qur'an)'s view of women, stoning, and all these other issues that have been brought up in this thread (punishments for crimes such as theft, etc). Many of us have tried to explain the Islamic and Qur'anic perspectives on these issues using historical evidence, clear references to the texts, and what various interpretations of scholars on the more 'controversial' verses. Chadwick did not once try to engage us regarding our answers, but instead would either arbitrarily reference an obscure story occurring in some part of the world or link us to some youtube video of a nobody who calls himself "imam" going off on an idiotic rant about something. Tell me--is this what a discussion is supposed to look like?
The problem is: chadwick is pretending to be curious about what Islam says, but he responds to the answers he's given with what various, random (to the point of where I've never heard of them and they need youtube to give them a platform--and often, their videos have more "dislikes" than "likes") Muslims say. You see the difference? I doubt chadwick does, because in the OP he admitted himself to not even knowing the difference between "Islam" and "Muslim." It seems that the idea of a random Muslim having an opinion that is at odds with what Islam says goes beyond chadwick's comprehension.
Furthermore, you yourself and many others on here seem to be missing VivaPalestina's point. First, I think to simplify the death penalty as it is practiced in Western countries to "you murder/rape, then you get punished" is problematic because it ignores the abuse that is associated with this. There are very clear systematic and institutional policies that discriminate against minorities in this country, and often lead to their social disenfranchisement or even, yes, them being killed. Many are on deathrow unjustly, despite the amazing achievements of modern science, due to these policies. I know it's easy to ignore the fact that these policies exist when you're not one of these minorities, but maybe you should get out your copy of Vs. and listen to WMA again. Take a look at the reports of NYPD spying on Muslims, take a look at the various stories of FBI entrapment in terror cases, or just read one fucking article about the way African Americans are disenfranchised and often given insane sentences for crimes (sometimes crimes they did not even commit).
The point is this: if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
If we instead want to talk about the motivations or causes of these unjust punishments taking place, because you reeeally want to differentiate and you just cannot accept that these 2 cases are similar, then we have to go back to the original question that this thread presented: Is Islam to blame for the few cases of stonings that have taken place? We have already presented sufficient evidence in my opinion to show that it is not. I have yet to receive a response suggesting it is. Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
You can learn first hand instead of being based on anyone's perspective.
If you are too bored to read it then don't bother yourself with this issue.
Listen to this woman! :thumbup:
But people have youtube videos!! Explanations must be forthcoming!
I am not going to deny that discrimination against minorities does exist. And I would tell you that such behaviour is unacceptable- there is a social movement to raise awareness for the inequities that exist. But don't tell us that the DP is almost exclusive for minorities- the last two high profile executions I have read about were white males. In the DP thread, the people I have argued that need to be executed are white (Olson, Pickton, Shearing). The crime is in question from my perspective- not the color of one's skin.
When you say:
if we recognize that minorities are discriminated against and that it sometimes (if even rarely) leads to them being put to death (such as Troy Davis) unjustly, then what you guys are debating is merely the method of execution. Is there really a less humane way of killing someone unjustly? Perhaps, but getting lost in the details of an unjust punishment overshadows the real problem of it taking place at all! A turd wearing a bow is still a turd.
and
Until then, you guys are trying to understand why stonings take place in a part of the world where you don't understand its languages, history, politics, religions, the history of its interaction with Western colonial/imperial forces, or the various legal battles that have been fought for hundreds of years that have given it the system it has today. So if you're looking for a simple answer, you probably won't get it.
It doesn't sound as if you are as strongly opposed to some of the practices some people have been objecting to.
In my mind, it is weak to defend the public stoning for a woman's adulterous behaviour by making a comparison to the execution of a violent criminal convicted of rape and murder. They are not similar at all, get real. If women in the west were getting executed for having affairs, then we could have a comparison and a debate about turds being turds.
My education continues.
This exactly.
It does not make me a hypocrite to condemn this practice of public stoning of women whose only "crime" is adultery and whose fate was sealed the second their loving husband made the accusation. Say what you will about the death penalty in the West. (We have a thread for it here on AMT. Come join the debate.) What every convicted felon on death row has in common with each other that they do not have in common with these poor women is that they were accused, tried, and convicted for a terrible crime, often no less than multiple murder. You cannot say the same for any woman who faces this horrible fate of public stoning. Again...public stoning. In 20fucking13.
Yet the response is "Yeah...but...America..."
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Great post
Dignin...
What exactly is your avatar? I don't know what I am looking at.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3326/ ... ning-women
notice the key words - "Muslim extremists who hide behind Islam's Sharia laws."
"extremists" & "sharia law"
i am 100% certain not all muslim are nasty little shits. these fuckers which this thread is about are.
how much simpler can it be to understand? i am not saying at all that every single muslim is a monster. no no no.
these extremist assholes are cruel
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
can a person even survive 500 lashes with some badass medieval fucking switch being flung around by some hateful fucking bastard? he needs that switch placed up his fat ass
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Haha, it's some kind of hairless cat.
No, the response is not But America, it's AND America, both are different, both are wrong, I can admit that both ate wrong, you can not, when you say child murderers, I think Damien Echols who sat on death row, no DNA, a sham trial and a persecution that wasted half his life....so it's AND America. I have no problem condemning the death penalty in both environments, it's evident that you do.
I guess you're right if you oppose the death penalty and you compare adultery with, say, murdering children. :?
Let alone the method of execution... do you seriously fail to see the difference in the application of the death penalty in the 'two environments'? You are losing credibility (at least with me) pursuing this argument.
Godfather.
I fully understand the mistake people are making by generalizing radical Muslim behaviour to all Muslims. I can certainly understand why some might feel defensive given this- I have come to the defence of some of our Muslim contributors when unfairly attacked on this forum. I have nothing against Muslim people, but I have a lot against cruel and unfair treatment of women.
Regardless of how one might be personally affected by general criticisms that do not apply to them, I don't think it is reasonable or appropriate to in any way rationalize the extreme behaviours that have been pointed out in this thread. Stoning a woman to death or whipping them is medieval in nature: these behaviours are deplorable and need to stop. It has been put to me that there is no simple answer to the complexity of the situation, however I don't know exactly what 'complex answer' I might hear that would have me understand why such actions would be condoned.