You know, several very learned people have spent quite a lot of time and effort crafting knowledgable and thoughtful replies to you, and you have made absolutely no attempt to absorb, understand or engage with what they have said. Instead preferring to just mine more random acts of violence from around the world crying, why, why, why like some child being dragged around a supermarket.
Your attitude is completely disingenuous and disrespectful of the effort these people have made.
You know, several very learned people have spent quite a lot of time and effort crafting knowledgable and thoughtful replies to you, and you have made absolutely no attempt to absorb, understand or engage with what they have said. Instead preferring to just mine more random acts of violence from around the world crying, why, why, why like some child being dragged around a supermarket.
Your attitude is completely disingenuous and disrespectful of the effort these people have made.
asking why, why, why is not being dragged around a supermarket like a child. i am asking questions to things i do not know or understand. i feel i haven't been given but a few decent answers. i also feel i've been given a lot of running around in a circle. fucking excuse me, pingfah, for not understanding this stuff & for not being as intelligent as you are.
your attitude is no bed of roses yourself, sir. your down talking & harshness is not intimidating. is that what some of you want, to get this thread shut down? my manners & my genuine interest here is very pure & with an open heart & mind.
what are you wishing to learn today, pingfah? are you helping your fellow man understand something, are you reading & writing & doing research on topics you lack knowledge in or are you here to bash someone who is striving to understand different cultures, different religions & yes the cruelty men do?
the highest judicial official in iran, ayatollah shahroudi who got rid of stoning in 2002, cannot stop this order of two sisters to be sentenced to death by stoning. the sisters are said to have had affairs on their husbands. not one single person ever saw them in a sexual encounter. they each recieved 99 lashes. then 6 months later back in court for said affairs.
again i'll ask nicely as i was never given an answer; what is islamic sharia law? iran practices this form of islam, which other countries that practice islam practice sharia law? what are the differences?
again? why am i the bad guy for asking reasonable questions?
To add to that, there's also a report that the Prophet said something along the lines of, "he who beats his wife and then lays with her is not one of us." In addition to this there's another report where he said, "Seeking knowledge (education) is incumbent upon every Muslim man and woman." It's notable that he said this because in Arabic, words are altered based on gender (thus "Muslim" is technically the masculine form, whereas "Muslima" is the feminine), so the Prophet reportedly said both words, whereas it would only suffice to say "Muslim" to refer to all Muslims. The reason for this is that he clearly wanted to stress that he means women as well. This directly contradicts any supposed notion that Islam prevents women access to education based on nonsense read about the Taliban and all that.
There are strict and numerous conditions for a punishment to be given and to betray any of these would be against the teachings of Islam because to do so would produce an injustice.
Yeah. I talked about this, chadwick, in my post in the other thread, which apparently you did not understand. I recommend you try reading it more than once, though: there are more general principles (justice, equality, etc) which have to be upheld by all the smaller rules within Islam. If any of these rules begin to contradict these general principles (whether it is because the contemporary context is different from the historical one, or for any other reason) then serious reexamination of these rules is necessary to thereby determine their continued applicability. Further, Rudolph Peters in his book Crime and Punishment in Islam says himself that it is virtually impossible for crimes (such as theft, adultery, etc) to be punished unless the perpetrator him/herself confesses to it, because until then there is a concept known as "shubha" (basically means the benefit of the doubt) that the defendant could invoke and thereby escape any punishment, due to the precise nature in which these crimes are defined. As badbrains said, stealing for hunger would not go punished. How can someone prove greed?
These punishments are called in Arabic hudud, which literally can be translated as "limits;" the reason they are called this is because they are limits God has set to prevent things like theft, murder, adultery, etc., from occurring in society, so the punishments mostly exist theoretically.[/quote]
So if a woman reports that she has been raped she is confessing ......... who gets punished? and what is the punishment?[/quote]
so which is it aerial? Is she REPORTING being raped or confessing to raping a man?[/quote]
Read the question :fp:
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
You know, several very learned people have spent quite a lot of time and effort crafting knowledgable and thoughtful replies to you, and you have made absolutely no attempt to absorb, understand or engage with what they have said. Instead preferring to just mine more random acts of violence from around the world crying, why, why, why like some child being dragged around a supermarket.
Your attitude is completely disingenuous and disrespectful of the effort these people have made.
asking why, why, why is not being dragged around a supermarket like a child. i am asking questions to things i do not know or understand. i feel i haven't been given but a few decent answers. i also feel i've been given a lot of running around in a circle. fucking excuse me, pingfah, for not understanding this stuff & for not being as intelligent as you are.
your attitude is no bed of roses yourself, sir. your down talking & harshness is not intimidating. is that what some of you want, to get this thread shut down? my manners & my genuine interest here is very pure & with an open heart & mind.
what are you wishing to learn today, pingfah? are you helping your fellow man understand something, are you reading & writing & doing research on topics you lack knowledge in or are you here to bash someone who is striving to understand different cultures, different religions & yes the cruelty men do?
They don't want you to have an opinion unless you agree with there denial.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Lol blah blah blah, any of you that truly believe a whole religion is out to get you need a complete reality check.
I'm tired of talking about how a minority of fanatics does not represent an entire religion of over a billion people. So you know what, believe what you want, prepare for sharia law, hunker down with a stockpile of weapons waiting the impending invasion, and tune in the daily reports of how they all want you dead.
Lol blah blah blah, any of you that truly believe a whole religion is out to get you need a complete reality check.
I'm tired of talking about how a minority of fanatics does not represent an entire religion of over a billion people. So you know what, believe what you want, prepare for sharia law, hunker down with a stockpile of weapons waiting the impending invasion, and tune in the daily reports of how they all want you dead.
I'm busy experiencing life
this is your response to my asking, "what is islamic sharia law?"
& by the way, moonpig, i for one am thrilled w/ my life although penniless most of the time, i am not living in fear that the islamic sharia law is out to get me
im simply curious & trying to learn w/ my online peers who just so happen to enjoy this band's music. maybe some of you can answer my questions without slamming me & others with bullshit comments
Lol blah blah blah, any of you that truly believe a whole religion is out to get you need a complete reality check.
I'm tired of talking about how a minority of fanatics does not represent an entire religion of over a billion people. So you know what, believe what you want, prepare for sharia law, hunker down with a stockpile of weapons waiting the impending invasion, and tune in the daily reports of how they all want you dead.
I'm busy experiencing life
The people on here who believe a whole religion is out to get them also believe that these guys are coming for their guns!! :fp:
Hey Chadwick! I dunno how I found your post as I don't frequent AMT but I'm glad I did.
Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions directly :-/ and I don't know anything about Iowa, but I would like to +1 your idea to find a professor at your nearest university to talk to. I also want to applaud your desire to understand and learn about a topic you are unfamiliar with, and skeptical about the BS that gets spoon-fed to us. Since you mentioned you have trouble concentrating on large texts (and not for nothing but a lot of the academic stuff written about the middle east is DENSE as fuck) and youtube can be tricky when you are looking to separate out the biased rhetoric and just get to the learning material. So anywhoo, here are some free online resources for you to pursue, for any subject not just this one: http://www.khanacademy.org/ https://www.coursera.org/ http://www.ted.com/ http://www.edx.org
These are all free but you might have to make an account, which isn't so bad because you can keep track of what are doing or have done. They all work a bit differently too. I mostly use Coursera and real life college so I haven't gotten a chance to go through what edx offers, but after looking at their humanities section I am excited to get on some of those subjects! So thank YOU for asking these intelligent questions which led me to scoping that site out.
Anyway as I mentioned I am no expert on Islam or history in general, but part of why we have so much trouble understanding that subject in this country is that it's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeally long history, and it's not religious it's cultural, across many many cultures. As someone else already mentioned Islam is the religion and Muslim is the practitioner of the religion, the way a Catholic practices Catholicism or a Christian practices Christianity. But just like Christianity is sort of like a tree trunk with a bunch of different branches (like Presbyterians and Methodists) there are different types of Islam as well. Remember, there are religions right here in the US that impose restrictions on women, such as the Hasidic or Orthodox Jews and the Pentecostal Christians. Then you've got the Amish and Mennonites as well. So a lot of the rhetoric about women's oppression that we hear needs to be considered contextually. Now you mentioned the story that was in the news recently about the 8 year old girl that died from the injuries she endured on her wedding night to the husband that was like 5 times her age or something like that. Part of the reason why you heard about it is because it's such an extreme example. Think about what the guy in rural Pakistan must think when he hears about the Westboro Baptist Church protesting the funerals of soldiers holding up signs that say 'God hates fags' and going on and on. Those people call themselves Christians, but they are unlike any of the Christians I've ever known. It's a horrific, extreme example but it's not an everyday occurrence. There was a story out of Austria about the guy who kept his daughter locked up in his basement for like 20 years while raping and impregnating her. Another story about a guy I think on the west coast maybe California, who kidnapped a girl on her way home from school and kept her locked up in the back yard doing the same thing to her. The reason these stories make the national news is because they are shocking, and they are shocking because they are uncommon. Can't judge our whole society by those events, you know?
So to understand some more about Islam you will have to learn about the history of the middle east, which is itself complicated by the fact that there's no clear definition of the countries that actually make up the middle east as we call it. We have a screwed up view of history (I think) because of the way we are taught US history in public school. Like 500 years Columbus found the US and that's where history starts for us! Which is, for all intents and purposes, stupid bullcrap.
The first video the guy is specifically talking about women in Saudi Arabia in the beginning, and how they are allowed to pray together with men in the holy site but then when they get back downtown they have to be in separate sections in Burger King. So I think it will interest you.
http://youtu.be/fLvpx_a9M0c
Imam Siraj Wahhaj. i've listened to him before & i then stated he could teach me things about islam i don't know or understand. i like him.
Hey Chadwick! I dunno how I found your post as I don't frequent AMT but I'm glad I did.
Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions directly :-/ and I don't know anything about Iowa, but I would like to +1 your idea to find a professor at your nearest university to talk to. I also want to applaud your desire to understand and learn about a topic you are unfamiliar with, and skeptical about the BS that gets spoon-fed to us. Since you mentioned you have trouble concentrating on large texts (and not for nothing but a lot of the academic stuff written about the middle east is DENSE as fuck) and youtube can be tricky when you are looking to separate out the biased rhetoric and just get to the learning material. So anywhoo, here are some free online resources for you to pursue, for any subject not just this one: http://www.khanacademy.org/ https://www.coursera.org/ http://www.ted.com/ http://www.edx.org
These are all free but you might have to make an account, which isn't so bad because you can keep track of what are doing or have done. They all work a bit differently too. I mostly use Coursera and real life college so I haven't gotten a chance to go through what edx offers, but after looking at their humanities section I am excited to get on some of those subjects! So thank YOU for asking these intelligent questions which led me to scoping that site out.
Anyway as I mentioned I am no expert on Islam or history in general, but part of why we have so much trouble understanding that subject in this country is that it's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeally long history, and it's not religious it's cultural, across many many cultures. As someone else already mentioned Islam is the religion and Muslim is the practitioner of the religion, the way a Catholic practices Catholicism or a Christian practices Christianity. But just like Christianity is sort of like a tree trunk with a bunch of different branches (like Presbyterians and Methodists) there are different types of Islam as well. Remember, there are religions right here in the US that impose restrictions on women, such as the Hasidic or Orthodox Jews and the Pentecostal Christians. Then you've got the Amish and Mennonites as well. So a lot of the rhetoric about women's oppression that we hear needs to be considered contextually. Now you mentioned the story that was in the news recently about the 8 year old girl that died from the injuries she endured on her wedding night to the husband that was like 5 times her age or something like that. Part of the reason why you heard about it is because it's such an extreme example. Think about what the guy in rural Pakistan must think when he hears about the Westboro Baptist Church protesting the funerals of soldiers holding up signs that say 'God hates fags' and going on and on. Those people call themselves Christians, but they are unlike any of the Christians I've ever known. It's a horrific, extreme example but it's not an everyday occurrence. There was a story out of Austria about the guy who kept his daughter locked up in his basement for like 20 years while raping and impregnating her. Another story about a guy I think on the west coast maybe California, who kidnapped a girl on her way home from school and kept her locked up in the back yard doing the same thing to her. The reason these stories make the national news is because they are shocking, and they are shocking because they are uncommon. Can't judge our whole society by those events, you know?
So to understand some more about Islam you will have to learn about the history of the middle east, which is itself complicated by the fact that there's no clear definition of the countries that actually make up the middle east as we call it. We have a screwed up view of history (I think) because of the way we are taught US history in public school. Like 500 years Columbus found the US and that's where history starts for us! Which is, for all intents and purposes, stupid bullcrap.
The first video the guy is specifically talking about women in Saudi Arabia in the beginning, and how they are allowed to pray together with men in the holy site but then when they get back downtown they have to be in separate sections in Burger King. So I think it will interest you.
here is someone who can communicate with some respect & knowledge. thank you. although finding the college professor in iowa who teaches middle eastern history, culture & whatnot was not my idea but another posters thought for me & i did agree with them that it would be a good start.
yes many things written about a lot of subjects (not just the middle east) are dense as fuck & make a guy wanna face plant his mug into a brick wall. yes, my concentration gets limited as i wanna jab fish hooks into my eyes after a few pages of thick ass bullshit & circular jibberish which is impressive for ph.d's & md's & whatnot
here is someone who can communicate with some respect & knowledge. thank you. although finding the college professor in iowa who teaches middle eastern history, culture & whatnot was not my idea but another posters thought for me & i did agree with them that it would be a good start.
yes many things written about a lot of subjects (not just the middle east) are dense as fuck & make a guy wanna face plant his mug into a brick wall. yes, my concentration gets limited as i wanna jab fish hooks into my eyes after a few pages of thick ass bullshit & circular jibberish which is impressive for ph.d's & md's & whatnot
i'll look your links over
thank you
No problem, brother - I hope you can get some knowledge that you are seeking out of them. I just watched those last two videos in entirety and I think the first one does a good job of explaining the culture v. religion as well as political factors that the 'muslim world' faces today. And the guy in the 2nd one talks way too fuckin fast but I put the captions on and while he tries to be funny and isn't, he does talk a little bit about shariah law.
If anything check your local university's website for humanities, history, social science departments and see if they have any upcoming panels or discussions that you can attend for free, a lot of schools do this but it's not promoted outside of the department's email lists and facebook pages. Speaking as someone who deals with them on a daily basis, try to take the young'uns with a grain of salt when they start yapping like they got a solution to fix the entire middle east. They take that "I'm 19 years old I'm invincible" shit and crank it up to 11 when talking about international politics.
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
I spent a little time reading this thread and I believe most of you would free Charlie Manson if you found the opertunity to do so,I don't think any of you really have any understand of the koran or muslim faith and shirh law..not that I do by any means but all this talk about non-radicals and extreamist of the muslim faith is based on about much understanding as I have but yet you still wave the flag of good understanding and argue for the muslims peaceful quest......and then badbrains wants Arial banned for life ?....must be his peaceful and understanding muslim faith. and then uses this :twisted: at the end of his quote......I love this place.
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
that's love baby......muslim love ?
Godfather.
No, that's my radical side, u know, the one you say ALL Muslims have. Look at GF standing up for his pal Areil. Bravo man, you 2 belong together since you basically are the same person. Nice of you to come join us in this thread. I was wondering where and why you weren't in here. Someone that HAS more hate towards Muslims then Areil belongs in this thread.
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
that's love baby......muslim love ?
Godfather.
No, that's my radical side, u know, the one you say ALL Muslims have. Look at GF standing up for his pal Areil. Bravo man, you 2 belong together since you basically are the same person. Nice of you to come join us in this thread. I was wondering where and why you weren't in here. Someone that HAS more hate towards Muslims then Areil belongs in this thread.
Easy man. Don't take the bait.....that's what gets them off.
Yet more comical rhetoric from one Areil. Where do you start????? How about here
And yet she's still allowed to post offensive shit. I mite have to "finally" break down and inform someone I find her post very offensive. Nah, I'll just let her post away this kind of humor for us all :corn:
Oh and great post aelara. :thumbup:
You are not the only person who frequents this site that found that posting and others to have been offensive
Shalom Alechem
Sorry if the truth is offensive.....
you know what aerial.. truth is never offensive cause when we stop and think about it objectively we see it AS truth. when people trot pout the im sorry you find truth offensive then we know that what has been said hasn't been said for truths sake but simply to be offensive. its like that old chestnut im not racist but.... not ever have I been offended by the truth but I sure as hell have been shown to be wanting... and that is overwhelming a fault with me denying what has just slapped me in the face.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:
that's love baby......muslim love ?
Godfather.
No, that's my radical side, u know, the one you say ALL Muslims have. Look at GF standing up for his pal Areil. Bravo man, you 2 belong together since you basically are the same person. Nice of you to come join us in this thread. I was wondering where and why you weren't in here. Someone that HAS more hate towards Muslims then Areil belongs in this thread.
your raducal side ? (bait taken) what else dose your radical side do ?......this should be interesting,do all muslims have a radical side ? like say their wives or daughter's deside to leave a family for what ever reason,do the muslim men just say o.k leave ? do muslim grown men really take 8 year old brides and her family gives him their blessing ?
and does it really take 4 witness's for a muslim woman to claim a charge of rape and if she can not produce those witness' and claims rape what can happen to her ? because honestly all I have heard is what makes the news and it's never good.
Godfather.
have you ever read any post from me that said I hate someone ?
Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.
I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.
I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.
That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.
Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.
And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.
On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.
The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.
The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.
What's your part, who you are?
2012: Arras, Berlin 1-2
2013: Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
2014: Milano, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin
2016: NY MSG 1
Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.
I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.
I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.
That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.
Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.
And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.
On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.
The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.
The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.
I think it is fair to say that there is too much bullshit going on.
If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are truly peaceful... then overwhelm the minority who publically stone a woman to death for adultery no less. A Muslim country who has legally sanctioned stonings does not exactly fit the description expressed by peaceful Muslims... leaving, at a minimum, a degree of skepticism from those horrified by the practice.
Bottom line: some fights are worth fighting and a woman buried chest high and stoned in a public setting like it is a sporting event is a fight worth fighting in my mind. Pointing fingers at radical groups while doing nothing about it makes one an accomplice in my mind.
We have a growing Muslim population in Canada and I am glad they are helping populate our country. I am pretty sure we have some 'radicals' in our mix- we have had some examples of radical behaviours (honour killings). I can accept such examples as isolated and extreme behaviour. I have a hard time accepting a public stoning in a marketplace with everyone watching as actions on the part of a few. In the school system, everyone standing around encouraging a fight and doing nothing to prevent it is viewed as an accomplice.
Dingin, you're absolutely right bro, I shouldn't take the bait from some guy who truly doesn't give a fuck about any of his questions. Just wants to stir shit up. I shall do my best to ignore his hatred and rhetoric. Thanks buddy!
Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.
I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.
I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.
That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.
Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.
And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.
On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.
The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.
The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.
a honest, intelligent & decent post given here. thank you, jumbojet. what you wrote here makes sense to me.
That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.
Is that right? What about Bangladesh, which has had a woman head of state? Or does it not fit as an 'Islamic country' in your eyes because it's not covered in the media?
Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.
"Islamic countries" forbid women to drive cars? You mean ONE country, Saudi Arabia, does. I think you need to be careful with your wording. A lot of people might reach the conclusion that you're generalizing, likely on the basis of a poor understanding of, well, literally everything you're talking about! For instance, does Saudi Arabia do it on the basis of Islam itself? Do the religious texts forbid women to drive cars? Not that you'd know, since you admitted yourself you never have (nor intend to) read the Qur'an. If you don't plan on engaging the sources, or even getting your plain facts correct, then I think your contribution here is not very helpful, since it is very clearly based on just things you've heard on the wire.
I addressed all your other points in that quote before so I won't bother doing that here.
And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.
"Shariah law" states that? Where in "shariah law" is that written?
I'm not convinced you know what the shariah even is, to be honest. What makes up shariah law? Who determines what is in shariah law and what is not? How do they determine that? How has shariah law changed, in the 1400+ years that Islam has been around? Has it changed? Who changed it? Does it change in different contexts and societies? What is its relation to the sources, like the Quran and historical reports of what the Prophet did? On what basis can it be altered or disregarded?
No, how foolish of me. It's easier to not read the Quran, not study history, and not give a shit about any of these unimportant questions. After all, there are youtube videos of beheadings for God's sake! It's much more satisfying to just say "Islamic law says that" after watching youtube and CNN. God forbid I actually read a fucking book!
The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.
The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.
Other than your extremely problematic wording in this section of your post (e.g., "the very root of Islam might have come from something good," as if pretty much everything that has happened since then is absolutely awful), I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.
There was a story of a Christian man in Pennsylvania who stoned someone to death. Did anyone cover it? Did anyone care to talk about it? Not really. Nothing close to the way Islam is demonized in the media.
The bottom line is this. People need to:
1) take a step back from what you see in the media and not let it either shape your perception of Muslims, or shape the discourse of the religion. You cannot begin a conversation on Islam, when you have very little clue on what it is (based on all your own admissions of not even having read the Quran or know what it says), from questions like "Why are there stonings?" That question severely limits any productive conversation from thereon. It'd be like someone who has very limited knowledge on American culture and society simply stepping in and saying "You guys are so violent. Why are there mall shootings all the time?" but still try to claim "Oh, I just want to understand American culture, that's all." before adding another question of "And what's the deal with your president getting a blowjob from his intern that one time? Are you guys just all crazed sex addicts?"
2) stop generalizing things like "Shariah law says this" and "Islam does that." Islam is not monolithic, it is practiced very differently in different contexts. What you say is often what radicals think of Islam. Allowing them to control the discourse on what Islam "is" is extremely dangerous considering there are millions of Muslims who don't follow that.
3) understand that there are various complexities involved when it comes to history, politics, culture, society, etc., of the vast "Muslim world." You can't simply say that "there doesn't appear to be efforts to reform Islam." I've explained this point so many times, it's really getting irritating to me to have to keep repeating it.
There are videos of people standing by in American highschools (or even joining in) as boys gang rape a girl at a highschool. Are the people who stand by complicit? Probably so. Are ALL AMERICANS complicit? You've got to be fucking kidding me. This is what it sounds like when you guys make comments hinting that all Muslims are complicit because they don't "speak out enough" even though, again, you all admittedly have very poor knowledge of Islamic history and civilization, let alone current contemporary Islamic discourse and thought that is going on thousands of miles away from you.
There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.
I know that the person I responded to claimed to live in a Muslim society. But it doesn't make him or her any less wrong.
I also doubt your sincerity chadwick. You make no attempt to engage with any of the answers to your questions that I and others have provided. In any case, I really want to stop responding on here. It's really a waste of my time.
I also doubt your sincerity chadwick. You make no attempt to engage with any of the answers to your questions that I and others have provided. In any case, I really want to stop responding on here. It's really a waste of my time.
you are a bit hostile, yes/no?
you doubt my sincerity... ok, that's fine & it is your right, your opinion to believe this to be fact of me. you really should know though that i been coming here for quite a number of years & have contributed to this website in all sorts of ways. i write poetry, i study environmental science & take those exact topics here seriously, you will find my posts are mostly in threads that have a cause.
do i post in "word of the moment" or "what is on your mind right now" or "what is up your keester, right now"
no, sir, i am here trying to educate not only myself but others who, like me, do not understand the ways of the muslim as well as all kinds of cultures & other religions
you, sir, have no idea who i am & what i am about. i would suggest to you to lighten up a bit & stop putting a bullshit wrongly suited judgement on me.
i will say this, some religious folks sure as shit do not like questions, some do not bend & get all uptight...
i use the word, uptight, as it (to me) best describes a whole fucking lot of people all over the world.
Comments
Your attitude is completely disingenuous and disrespectful of the effort these people have made.
your attitude is no bed of roses yourself, sir. your down talking & harshness is not intimidating. is that what some of you want, to get this thread shut down? my manners & my genuine interest here is very pure & with an open heart & mind.
what are you wishing to learn today, pingfah? are you helping your fellow man understand something, are you reading & writing & doing research on topics you lack knowledge in or are you here to bash someone who is striving to understand different cultures, different religions & yes the cruelty men do?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
so islamic sharia law
iran - islamic republic
the highest judicial official in iran, ayatollah shahroudi who got rid of stoning in 2002, cannot stop this order of two sisters to be sentenced to death by stoning. the sisters are said to have had affairs on their husbands. not one single person ever saw them in a sexual encounter. they each recieved 99 lashes. then 6 months later back in court for said affairs.
again i'll ask nicely as i was never given an answer; what is islamic sharia law? iran practices this form of islam, which other countries that practice islam practice sharia law? what are the differences?
again? why am i the bad guy for asking reasonable questions?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
There are strict and numerous conditions for a punishment to be given and to betray any of these would be against the teachings of Islam because to do so would produce an injustice.
Yeah. I talked about this, chadwick, in my post in the other thread, which apparently you did not understand. I recommend you try reading it more than once, though: there are more general principles (justice, equality, etc) which have to be upheld by all the smaller rules within Islam. If any of these rules begin to contradict these general principles (whether it is because the contemporary context is different from the historical one, or for any other reason) then serious reexamination of these rules is necessary to thereby determine their continued applicability. Further, Rudolph Peters in his book Crime and Punishment in Islam says himself that it is virtually impossible for crimes (such as theft, adultery, etc) to be punished unless the perpetrator him/herself confesses to it, because until then there is a concept known as "shubha" (basically means the benefit of the doubt) that the defendant could invoke and thereby escape any punishment, due to the precise nature in which these crimes are defined. As badbrains said, stealing for hunger would not go punished. How can someone prove greed?
These punishments are called in Arabic hudud, which literally can be translated as "limits;" the reason they are called this is because they are limits God has set to prevent things like theft, murder, adultery, etc., from occurring in society, so the punishments mostly exist theoretically.[/quote]
So if a woman reports that she has been raped she is confessing ......... who gets punished? and what is the punishment?[/quote]
so which is it aerial? Is she REPORTING being raped or confessing to raping a man?[/quote]
Read the question :fp:
They don't want you to have an opinion unless you agree with there denial.
I'm tired of talking about how a minority of fanatics does not represent an entire religion of over a billion people. So you know what, believe what you want, prepare for sharia law, hunker down with a stockpile of weapons waiting the impending invasion, and tune in the daily reports of how they all want you dead.
I'm busy experiencing life
& by the way, moonpig, i for one am thrilled w/ my life although penniless most of the time, i am not living in fear that the islamic sharia law is out to get me
im simply curious & trying to learn w/ my online peers who just so happen to enjoy this band's music. maybe some of you can answer my questions without slamming me & others with bullshit comments
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
The people on here who believe a whole religion is out to get them also believe that these guys are coming for their guns!! :fp:
Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions directly :-/ and I don't know anything about Iowa, but I would like to +1 your idea to find a professor at your nearest university to talk to. I also want to applaud your desire to understand and learn about a topic you are unfamiliar with, and skeptical about the BS that gets spoon-fed to us. Since you mentioned you have trouble concentrating on large texts (and not for nothing but a lot of the academic stuff written about the middle east is DENSE as fuck) and youtube can be tricky when you are looking to separate out the biased rhetoric and just get to the learning material. So anywhoo, here are some free online resources for you to pursue, for any subject not just this one:
http://www.khanacademy.org/
https://www.coursera.org/
http://www.ted.com/
http://www.edx.org
These are all free but you might have to make an account, which isn't so bad because you can keep track of what are doing or have done. They all work a bit differently too. I mostly use Coursera and real life college so I haven't gotten a chance to go through what edx offers, but after looking at their humanities section I am excited to get on some of those subjects! So thank YOU for asking these intelligent questions which led me to scoping that site out.
Anyway as I mentioned I am no expert on Islam or history in general, but part of why we have so much trouble understanding that subject in this country is that it's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeally long history, and it's not religious it's cultural, across many many cultures. As someone else already mentioned Islam is the religion and Muslim is the practitioner of the religion, the way a Catholic practices Catholicism or a Christian practices Christianity. But just like Christianity is sort of like a tree trunk with a bunch of different branches (like Presbyterians and Methodists) there are different types of Islam as well. Remember, there are religions right here in the US that impose restrictions on women, such as the Hasidic or Orthodox Jews and the Pentecostal Christians. Then you've got the Amish and Mennonites as well. So a lot of the rhetoric about women's oppression that we hear needs to be considered contextually. Now you mentioned the story that was in the news recently about the 8 year old girl that died from the injuries she endured on her wedding night to the husband that was like 5 times her age or something like that. Part of the reason why you heard about it is because it's such an extreme example. Think about what the guy in rural Pakistan must think when he hears about the Westboro Baptist Church protesting the funerals of soldiers holding up signs that say 'God hates fags' and going on and on. Those people call themselves Christians, but they are unlike any of the Christians I've ever known. It's a horrific, extreme example but it's not an everyday occurrence. There was a story out of Austria about the guy who kept his daughter locked up in his basement for like 20 years while raping and impregnating her. Another story about a guy I think on the west coast maybe California, who kidnapped a girl on her way home from school and kept her locked up in the back yard doing the same thing to her. The reason these stories make the national news is because they are shocking, and they are shocking because they are uncommon. Can't judge our whole society by those events, you know?
So to understand some more about Islam you will have to learn about the history of the middle east, which is itself complicated by the fact that there's no clear definition of the countries that actually make up the middle east as we call it. We have a screwed up view of history (I think) because of the way we are taught US history in public school. Like 500 years Columbus found the US and that's where history starts for us! Which is, for all intents and purposes, stupid bullcrap.
But here are two videos I found for you as a starting point:
http://www.ted.com/talks/mustafa_akyol_faith_versus_tradition_in_islam.html
https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/crash-course1/crash-course-world-history/what%E2%80%99s-God-got-to-do-with-It/v/crash-course-world-history-13
The first video the guy is specifically talking about women in Saudi Arabia in the beginning, and how they are allowed to pray together with men in the holy site but then when they get back downtown they have to be in separate sections in Burger King. So I think it will interest you.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Imam Siraj Wahhaj. i've listened to him before & i then stated he could teach me things about islam i don't know or understand. i like him.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
here is someone who can communicate with some respect & knowledge. thank you. although finding the college professor in iowa who teaches middle eastern history, culture & whatnot was not my idea but another posters thought for me & i did agree with them that it would be a good start.
yes many things written about a lot of subjects (not just the middle east) are dense as fuck & make a guy wanna face plant his mug into a brick wall. yes, my concentration gets limited as i wanna jab fish hooks into my eyes after a few pages of thick ass bullshit & circular jibberish which is impressive for ph.d's & md's & whatnot
i'll look your links over
thank you
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
If anything check your local university's website for humanities, history, social science departments and see if they have any upcoming panels or discussions that you can attend for free, a lot of schools do this but it's not promoted outside of the department's email lists and facebook pages. Speaking as someone who deals with them on a daily basis, try to take the young'uns with a grain of salt when they start yapping like they got a solution to fix the entire middle east. They take that "I'm 19 years old I'm invincible" shit and crank it up to 11 when talking about international politics.
LIVEFOOTSTEPS.ORG/USER/?USR=435
Godfather.
that's love baby......muslim love ?
Godfather.
No, that's my radical side, u know, the one you say ALL Muslims have. Look at GF standing up for his pal Areil. Bravo man, you 2 belong together since you basically are the same person. Nice of you to come join us in this thread. I was wondering where and why you weren't in here. Someone that HAS more hate towards Muslims then Areil belongs in this thread.
Easy man. Don't take the bait.....that's what gets them off.
Just know their opinions are in the minority.
you know what aerial.. truth is never offensive cause when we stop and think about it objectively we see it AS truth. when people trot pout the im sorry you find truth offensive then we know that what has been said hasn't been said for truths sake but simply to be offensive. its like that old chestnut im not racist but.... not ever have I been offended by the truth but I sure as hell have been shown to be wanting... and that is overwhelming a fault with me denying what has just slapped me in the face.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
your raducal side ? (bait taken) what else dose your radical side do ?......this should be interesting,do all muslims have a radical side ? like say their wives or daughter's deside to leave a family for what ever reason,do the muslim men just say o.k leave ? do muslim grown men really take 8 year old brides and her family gives him their blessing ?
and does it really take 4 witness's for a muslim woman to claim a charge of rape and if she can not produce those witness' and claims rape what can happen to her ? because honestly all I have heard is what makes the news and it's never good.
Godfather.
have you ever read any post from me that said I hate someone ?
I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.
I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.
That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.
Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.
And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.
On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.
The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.
The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.
2012: Arras, Berlin 1-2
2013: Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
2014: Milano, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin
2016: NY MSG 1
I think it is fair to say that there is too much bullshit going on.
If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are truly peaceful... then overwhelm the minority who publically stone a woman to death for adultery no less. A Muslim country who has legally sanctioned stonings does not exactly fit the description expressed by peaceful Muslims... leaving, at a minimum, a degree of skepticism from those horrified by the practice.
Bottom line: some fights are worth fighting and a woman buried chest high and stoned in a public setting like it is a sporting event is a fight worth fighting in my mind. Pointing fingers at radical groups while doing nothing about it makes one an accomplice in my mind.
We have a growing Muslim population in Canada and I am glad they are helping populate our country. I am pretty sure we have some 'radicals' in our mix- we have had some examples of radical behaviours (honour killings). I can accept such examples as isolated and extreme behaviour. I have a hard time accepting a public stoning in a marketplace with everyone watching as actions on the part of a few. In the school system, everyone standing around encouraging a fight and doing nothing to prevent it is viewed as an accomplice.
a honest, intelligent & decent post given here. thank you, jumbojet. what you wrote here makes sense to me.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Is that right? What about Bangladesh, which has had a woman head of state? Or does it not fit as an 'Islamic country' in your eyes because it's not covered in the media?
"Islamic countries" forbid women to drive cars? You mean ONE country, Saudi Arabia, does. I think you need to be careful with your wording. A lot of people might reach the conclusion that you're generalizing, likely on the basis of a poor understanding of, well, literally everything you're talking about! For instance, does Saudi Arabia do it on the basis of Islam itself? Do the religious texts forbid women to drive cars? Not that you'd know, since you admitted yourself you never have (nor intend to) read the Qur'an. If you don't plan on engaging the sources, or even getting your plain facts correct, then I think your contribution here is not very helpful, since it is very clearly based on just things you've heard on the wire.
I addressed all your other points in that quote before so I won't bother doing that here.
"Shariah law" states that? Where in "shariah law" is that written?
I'm not convinced you know what the shariah even is, to be honest. What makes up shariah law? Who determines what is in shariah law and what is not? How do they determine that? How has shariah law changed, in the 1400+ years that Islam has been around? Has it changed? Who changed it? Does it change in different contexts and societies? What is its relation to the sources, like the Quran and historical reports of what the Prophet did? On what basis can it be altered or disregarded?
No, how foolish of me. It's easier to not read the Quran, not study history, and not give a shit about any of these unimportant questions. After all, there are youtube videos of beheadings for God's sake! It's much more satisfying to just say "Islamic law says that" after watching youtube and CNN. God forbid I actually read a fucking book!
Other than your extremely problematic wording in this section of your post (e.g., "the very root of Islam might have come from something good," as if pretty much everything that has happened since then is absolutely awful), I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.
There was a story of a Christian man in Pennsylvania who stoned someone to death. Did anyone cover it? Did anyone care to talk about it? Not really. Nothing close to the way Islam is demonized in the media.
The bottom line is this. People need to:
1) take a step back from what you see in the media and not let it either shape your perception of Muslims, or shape the discourse of the religion. You cannot begin a conversation on Islam, when you have very little clue on what it is (based on all your own admissions of not even having read the Quran or know what it says), from questions like "Why are there stonings?" That question severely limits any productive conversation from thereon. It'd be like someone who has very limited knowledge on American culture and society simply stepping in and saying "You guys are so violent. Why are there mall shootings all the time?" but still try to claim "Oh, I just want to understand American culture, that's all." before adding another question of "And what's the deal with your president getting a blowjob from his intern that one time? Are you guys just all crazed sex addicts?"
2) stop generalizing things like "Shariah law says this" and "Islam does that." Islam is not monolithic, it is practiced very differently in different contexts. What you say is often what radicals think of Islam. Allowing them to control the discourse on what Islam "is" is extremely dangerous considering there are millions of Muslims who don't follow that.
3) understand that there are various complexities involved when it comes to history, politics, culture, society, etc., of the vast "Muslim world." You can't simply say that "there doesn't appear to be efforts to reform Islam." I've explained this point so many times, it's really getting irritating to me to have to keep repeating it.
There are videos of people standing by in American highschools (or even joining in) as boys gang rape a girl at a highschool. Are the people who stand by complicit? Probably so. Are ALL AMERICANS complicit? You've got to be fucking kidding me. This is what it sounds like when you guys make comments hinting that all Muslims are complicit because they don't "speak out enough" even though, again, you all admittedly have very poor knowledge of Islamic history and civilization, let alone current contemporary Islamic discourse and thought that is going on thousands of miles away from you.
There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.
I know that the person I responded to claimed to live in a Muslim society. But it doesn't make him or her any less wrong.
you doubt my sincerity... ok, that's fine & it is your right, your opinion to believe this to be fact of me. you really should know though that i been coming here for quite a number of years & have contributed to this website in all sorts of ways. i write poetry, i study environmental science & take those exact topics here seriously, you will find my posts are mostly in threads that have a cause.
do i post in "word of the moment" or "what is on your mind right now" or "what is up your keester, right now"
no, sir, i am here trying to educate not only myself but others who, like me, do not understand the ways of the muslim as well as all kinds of cultures & other religions
you, sir, have no idea who i am & what i am about. i would suggest to you to lighten up a bit & stop putting a bullshit wrongly suited judgement on me.
i will say this, some religious folks sure as shit do not like questions, some do not bend & get all uptight...
i use the word, uptight, as it (to me) best describes a whole fucking lot of people all over the world.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce