Edit: Mayor Rob Ford admits to smoking crack

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  • Just curious, based on some of the comments here it seems Rob Ford's stay in rehab (as opposed to wellness centres, where the Liberals go for substance abuse issues) accomplished nothing, and some seem to think he was smoking crack in his hospital bed (yes, I know, hyperbole).
    So, who actually believes Ford's rehab program was successful, and if not, please provide some rationale for your stance. It might also be helpful for people to indicate where they're posting from, since the reporting on the former mayor was quite skewed, with some unaware of his battle against cancer (yet salacious details of the scandals are well-known).
    As a resident of Toronto, I cannot believe that if there had been a post-rehab relapse that it would have gone unreported. Outside Toronto, it seems Ford's mayoralty was covered as a joke, but the media atmosphere during those days was toxic, as much the media's fault as Ford's.

    As a joke in poor taste, I'd say many here would have no problem delivering some incredibly uncomfortable and inappropriate eulogies, which I find comically sad.

    As I said before... it's unfortunate he's dead- it really is; but he can own his actions in life and death just like all of us. If you choose to be a leader, then it is your responsibility to lead and to do so with a standard above that typically reserved for crack smoking gangsters.

    If people from Toronto are okay with that type of leadership and feel Ford represented them quite well- which, I am assuming from the last string of comments that they are- then fair enough.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003
    edited April 2016
    ^^ They aren't. The huge majority feel the same way you and I do. Since all the real crap started with him, Ford supporters have basically been a fringe group.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    I'm by no means suggesting the man be deified. However, every statement made about his crack-smoking, gangbanging, murderous (that one's a load of horseshit, sorry) ways should be immediately followed by something to the effect of "by all reports he reformed those behaviours," which isn't happening.

    Yes, the man was a buffoon of sorts, and his personal behaviours (which weren't known at election time) became increasingly embarrassing and indefensible as time went on. That said, his policies remained unchanged, many of which were successfully implemented (and some of which the current mayor and council are turning into jokes, such as the Scarborough subway).

    Policy-wise, he remains admirable to many. As far as his personal life, I would say that while there is much past cause for embarrassment, he did make some positive changes to his life and lifestyle.

    And just a reminder, that the man chosen to "replace" Ford as mayor flew off to Florida for a couple days while tens (if not hundreds) of thousands were without power in the city (ours was out for a full week). So, from my perspective, one fool was replaced with another.

    One more suggestion I'd like to make is to wonder whether we would talk about our own family members who have gone through similar struggles in the same way, regardless of what job they might hold/have held? While I'm the first to agree that public figures are open to heightened scrutiny, at the end of the day they're just humans, being. Or human beings, lol.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • ^^^

    I'd love and forgive my son and daughter no matter what they do... but I wouldn't expect you to.

    Murderers, rapists, and pedophiles are human beings too- it doesn't mean they are beyond reproach simply because of that fact.

    I'm glad you feel he had some good policies because... could you imagine if he didn't? It might be just me... but for BS's so called 'Mecca' or 'jewel of the world' that everybody supposedly so badly wants to come to... you would think you might be able to find a guy to serve as mayor with good policies and as challenging as it might be... manage to represent his constituents and himself with a somewhat more positive image.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    Part of Ford's appeal was similar to what I see with Bernie Sanders: they could both be called anti-politicians. Mainly in the way they don't come across as polished as most who enter that field. I'd consider crossing party lines for that type of candidate (if there's an intellect behind the brusqueness, lol). Hell, that's part of Trump's appeal as well.

    One thing I did admire in Ford was how diligent he seemed to be about direct contact with his constituents, either out in public, or returning calls and emails personally. That's a trait I've yet to see or hear evidence of in our current mayor, John Tory, the man who works to please all and offend none (a typical politician).

    This isn't meant as a dig at anyone (since we're all humans being, lol), but I'm getting the feeling threads like these and the comments that follow say far more about the commenters than they ever will about the people or topics they purport to discuss, lol.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,811
    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    That makes no sense. A politician didn't write the article.
    It makes perfect sense. This writer is saying that we can't praise a mayor who aside from his major personal problems actually ran the city quite well. That's why people here love him. I get that he is trying to boost his local readership by slagging our ex-mayor...after all the greatest Winnipeg past-time is slagging on Toronto right up until one moves here...but he really should look inward before acting all high and mighty.
    I think you've got an inflated sense of your hometown. It's hardly reputed as impressive for a number of reasons. Nobody is envious.

    The fact that a large chunk of Toronto residents have no values and endorsed this guy says something about the people there too.

    Your crack smoking, gangster affiliated mayor was a known drug addict who very likely had something to do with the murder of someone set to expose him. At a very minimum... he was a clown- a buffoon that was deservedly the subject of multiple jokes.

    You couldn't have found anyone even slightly better to be the mayor of your city? Pickings were that slim?

    Regardless... he is worthy of criticism.
    I've got an appropriately inflated sense of my hometown. The growth here over the last ten years is nothing short of astounding. It is now the third largest city in North America and in terms of how it is run, quality of living, employment opportunities, the arts etc. I would put it at or above any other North American and/or world city of similar size. There are just no if's, and's, or butt's about it...this place is the shit and that's why people are moving here in droves from around the world. Now is this Rob Ford's doing? Of course not. But Ford was one of those Mayor's who didn't believe bloated city budgets was the answer to everything. He held the line on government spending, he privatized services such as garbage collection, and he moved the ball forward on transit. Was he a buffoon all at the same time? Absolutely but buffoonery is just aesthetics. I will take a small government buffoon who recognizes that it is the citizens who make a city great over a smooth talking big government progressive who thinks that he/she knows better then it's people. Big cities don't turn into Chicago/Detroit by accident.
    That's true, they turn that way when they thrive on industries that exploit them and then disappear
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,252
    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    people from Toronto who think like this remind of people from the US who have this misguided patriotism based on a fallacy and think it is paradise on earth. I've been to Toronto many times. Toilet. I've been to Montreal. Loved it. Vancouver. Loved it (downtown and the burbs). I like Toronto's surrounding burbs. But the city itself is not my thing.

    People love to hate Toronto because people from there think it's the greatest place on earth and everywhere else is shit. Not because we actually believe Toronto is better, it's because you all do.

    Winnipeg's downtown core: toilet. no disagreement there.

    Sam Katz (our former mayor) was a fucking crook. And I voted for the rat. Hopefully Bowman will do better. He seems to be. But it will take a long fucking time to turn this city around.

    Rob Ford did some good things for Toronto, but he single handedly made your city a global laughing stock. "Winnipeg writer" is simply saying don't put up a statute of a known crook/drug addict just because he died prematurely.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,895
    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    That makes no sense. A politician didn't write the article.
    It makes perfect sense. This writer is saying that we can't praise a mayor who aside from his major personal problems actually ran the city quite well. That's why people here love him. I get that he is trying to boost his local readership by slagging our ex-mayor...after all the greatest Winnipeg past-time is slagging on Toronto right up until one moves here...but he really should look inward before acting all high and mighty.
    A very, very small minority of people in TO loved him. "Ford Nation". God, so pathetic. Most Torontonians hated his guts for the same reason we're all slagging him, and found him to be a major embarrassment to the city, which he was.
    Spoken by the person from Vancouver
    That also makes no sense. It's not even in context.
    Oh wait, I get it. You're one of "those" people. The ones who live in Toronto and can never resist some dumb pissing contest over what city is better, lol.
    FYI, no one else does that.
    Again...makes perfect sense as you have no real concept about Ford's base of support. Most Torontonians did not hate his guts and that's just a fact. You are getting a media painted picture of how things were in Toronto during the Ford days all of which were hugely inaccurate. During the SARS crisis the media made it seem that we were all infected and hiding in doors when nothing could be further from the truth. The media fed you a story on Ford's support that you gladly accepted because it fit your high and mighty narrative but if you actually lived here you would know that it wasn't true.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,553

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    people from Toronto who think like this remind of people from the US who have this misguided patriotism based on a fallacy and think it is paradise on earth. I've been to Toronto many times. Toilet. I've been to Montreal. Loved it. Vancouver. Loved it (downtown and the burbs). I like Toronto's surrounding burbs. But the city itself is not my thing.

    People love to hate Toronto because people from there think it's the greatest place on earth and everywhere else is shit. Not because we actually believe Toronto is better, it's because you all do.

    Winnipeg's downtown core: toilet. no disagreement there.

    Sam Katz (our former mayor) was a fucking crook. And I voted for the rat. Hopefully Bowman will do better. He seems to be. But it will take a long fucking time to turn this city around.

    Rob Ford did some good things for Toronto, but he single handedly made your city a global laughing stock. "Winnipeg writer" is simply saying don't put up a statute of a known crook/drug addict just because he died prematurely.
    my perspective on this is this ...

    a lot of people hate on toronto for no reason ... not sure how you can call downtown toronto a toilet ... it's home to a lot of culture, diversity, arts and ultimately what we, as Canadians, should be proud of ... which is a community of multicultural differences, religious differences, sexual orientation ... and we get along ... is it perfect? of course not but I defy you to show me a city of this magnitude that does inclusion and diversity as well as toronto ... we can also take pride in the fact that no one in downtown toronto voted for harper ever (as in elected a conservative mp) ...

    in any case - whatever shitting on cities is for the silly ... i've been to many places in canada and i've learned that every place has something to offer ...

    some excerpts from this interview ... http://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/movies/q-and-a-jay-baruchel-talks-about-why-hes-high-on-hogtown

    JB: A few things happened. I realized that not only did I not hate it in Toronto, but I quite like it here. I was bred to hate it. My parents fed me with all the Montreal anglo stuff — the “it’s where we go to die” stuff. But I also realized I had never spent that much time here. It was when I was here two or three winters ago doing RoboCop, I had a lot of time off and I realized I’d never spent more than five days in a row here. Between that and doing the TV show and a lot of my friends living here, I won’t lie — I fell in love with it a bit here. It’s just a bit of an easier place to live than back home. The last election was very traumatic in a way.

    JB: And it always will be. Aside from that silly stuff, which I wish would just go away but it won’t, it was less that than the kind of poisonous ethnic dialogue, which really, really left a sour taste in my mouth. It didn’t feel like the place that Mom wanted me to live in. She wanted me to grow up in someplace multicultural and to see every complexion of the world on the street, and to hear all the languages, and for that not to be a defeat or a sacrifice, but a good thing and a strength. You come here and it really is a pretty diverse place. Just some of the issues, some of the editorial subject matter in Quebec — it’s from 100 years in the past, man. I wake up here and I’m just a dude in a city. And when I go outside and speak English, it’s not a loaded or political deed of any kind. I’m just living. There’s just way less headaches here. Everything is a bit easier here.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,252
    polaris_x said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    people from Toronto who think like this remind of people from the US who have this misguided patriotism based on a fallacy and think it is paradise on earth. I've been to Toronto many times. Toilet. I've been to Montreal. Loved it. Vancouver. Loved it (downtown and the burbs). I like Toronto's surrounding burbs. But the city itself is not my thing.

    People love to hate Toronto because people from there think it's the greatest place on earth and everywhere else is shit. Not because we actually believe Toronto is better, it's because you all do.

    Winnipeg's downtown core: toilet. no disagreement there.

    Sam Katz (our former mayor) was a fucking crook. And I voted for the rat. Hopefully Bowman will do better. He seems to be. But it will take a long fucking time to turn this city around.

    Rob Ford did some good things for Toronto, but he single handedly made your city a global laughing stock. "Winnipeg writer" is simply saying don't put up a statute of a known crook/drug addict just because he died prematurely.
    my perspective on this is this ...

    a lot of people hate on toronto for no reason ... not sure how you can call downtown toronto a toilet ... it's home to a lot of culture, diversity, arts and ultimately what we, as Canadians, should be proud of ... which is a community of multicultural differences, religious differences, sexual orientation ... and we get along ... is it perfect? of course not but I defy you to show me a city of this magnitude that does inclusion and diversity as well as toronto ... we can also take pride in the fact that no one in downtown toronto voted for harper ever (as in elected a conservative mp) ...

    in any case - whatever shitting on cities is for the silly ... i've been to many places in canada and i've learned that every place has something to offer ...

    some excerpts from this interview ... http://montrealgazette.com/entertainment/movies/q-and-a-jay-baruchel-talks-about-why-hes-high-on-hogtown

    JB: A few things happened. I realized that not only did I not hate it in Toronto, but I quite like it here. I was bred to hate it. My parents fed me with all the Montreal anglo stuff — the “it’s where we go to die” stuff. But I also realized I had never spent that much time here. It was when I was here two or three winters ago doing RoboCop, I had a lot of time off and I realized I’d never spent more than five days in a row here. Between that and doing the TV show and a lot of my friends living here, I won’t lie — I fell in love with it a bit here. It’s just a bit of an easier place to live than back home. The last election was very traumatic in a way.

    JB: And it always will be. Aside from that silly stuff, which I wish would just go away but it won’t, it was less that than the kind of poisonous ethnic dialogue, which really, really left a sour taste in my mouth. It didn’t feel like the place that Mom wanted me to live in. She wanted me to grow up in someplace multicultural and to see every complexion of the world on the street, and to hear all the languages, and for that not to be a defeat or a sacrifice, but a good thing and a strength. You come here and it really is a pretty diverse place. Just some of the issues, some of the editorial subject matter in Quebec — it’s from 100 years in the past, man. I wake up here and I’m just a dude in a city. And when I go outside and speak English, it’s not a loaded or political deed of any kind. I’m just living. There’s just way less headaches here. Everything is a bit easier here.
    it was my personal experience. nothing more, nothing less. i'm not so stupid as to hate on a city for anything. I just didn't enjoy my experiences there. I really don't give two shits if someone insults my city. it's the place I live. I didn't build it. I shouldn't be any more proud of winnipeg than I should be of the sky above me. I like it here, but like and pride are not the same thing.

    again, it is my belief that people only hate on toronto because of the SEEMINGLY egotistical "centre of the universe" nature of a good portion of its inhabitants. it's all in good fun. to me it's more of a ribbing than actual hate. same thing about people always insulting winnipeg for its mosquitoes and frigid weather and flat landscape and 3 building skyline.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,895

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    Went to the Leaf game last night. There was a nice tribute to Rob Ford followed by a warm ovation from the crowd. All around me people were only speaking positively about him. Those who don't live in Toronto will never comprehend how well liked the Mayor was.

    All that tells me is that, as usual, people are huge hypocrites in the face of death.
    exactly. a winnipeg writer said it best:

    Bury Rob Ford, but don't praise him:

    https://t.co/fu5GK7Oibx

    No thank you Winnipeg writer. I have spent many a day in your downtown core...maybe you should get a handle on your own civic governance before you criticize ours.
    people from Toronto who think like this remind of people from the US who have this misguided patriotism based on a fallacy and think it is paradise on earth. I've been to Toronto many times. Toilet. I've been to Montreal. Loved it. Vancouver. Loved it (downtown and the burbs). I like Toronto's surrounding burbs. But the city itself is not my thing.

    People love to hate Toronto because people from there think it's the greatest place on earth and everywhere else is shit. Not because we actually believe Toronto is better, it's because you all do.

    Winnipeg's downtown core: toilet. no disagreement there.

    Sam Katz (our former mayor) was a fucking crook. And I voted for the rat. Hopefully Bowman will do better. He seems to be. But it will take a long fucking time to turn this city around.

    Rob Ford did some good things for Toronto, but he single handedly made your city a global laughing stock. "Winnipeg writer" is simply saying don't put up a statute of a known crook/drug addict just because he died prematurely.
    People keep talking about this "global laughing stock" point as if it matters beyond being a punchline. Sure people made fun of Rob Ford but guess what...it did not affect the city in any significant way at all. People and business kept moving here, artists kept flooding the city for the film festival, concerts, etc, athletes signed contracts to play here...Rob Ford's behaviour did not change things at all and if anything I would argue it made the city more interesting and loveable in a weird sort of way. That doesn't mean we have to excuse his behaviour or build a statue of him but all I am trying to do is set the record straight on this complicated man. What the media presented was a very slim picture of this guy and never even delved into why people were attracted to him in the first place. As Darth said Ford was the outsider politician before being an outsider was cool and there never was a man more accessible to the citizenry.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,252
    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,895

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,553
    BS44325 said:

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
    again ... he basically was taken off the job a year into his term ... he DID NOT manage the city well ... if anything, we should thank council and norm kelly from preventing him from doing anything that could have messed things up ...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003

    I'm by no means suggesting the man be deified. However, every statement made about his crack-smoking, gangbanging, murderous (that one's a load of horseshit, sorry) ways should be immediately followed by something to the effect of "by all reports he reformed those behaviours," which isn't happening.

    Yes, the man was a buffoon of sorts, and his personal behaviours (which weren't known at election time) became increasingly embarrassing and indefensible as time went on. That said, his policies remained unchanged, many of which were successfully implemented (and some of which the current mayor and council are turning into jokes, such as the Scarborough subway).

    Policy-wise, he remains admirable to many. As far as his personal life, I would say that while there is much past cause for embarrassment, he did make some positive changes to his life and lifestyle.

    And just a reminder, that the man chosen to "replace" Ford as mayor flew off to Florida for a couple days while tens (if not hundreds) of thousands were without power in the city (ours was out for a full week). So, from my perspective, one fool was replaced with another.

    One more suggestion I'd like to make is to wonder whether we would talk about our own family members who have gone through similar struggles in the same way, regardless of what job they might hold/have held? While I'm the first to agree that public figures are open to heightened scrutiny, at the end of the day they're just humans, being. Or human beings, lol.

    The only reason he reformed those behaviours is because he got cancer though. He was obviously a man of low moral character (and I'm not saying that because he was an addict). He didn't reform from that. He just got too sick to run rampant with it.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003
    polaris_x said:

    BS44325 said:

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
    again ... he basically was taken off the job a year into his term ... he DID NOT manage the city well ... if anything, we should thank council and norm kelly from preventing him from doing anything that could have messed things up ...
    For sure. City council literally voted to ensure that he had no power because he was such a train wreck. It is totally beyond me why people would say that's an effectual leader. It's nonsensical.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,553
    PJ_Soul said:

    polaris_x said:

    BS44325 said:

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
    again ... he basically was taken off the job a year into his term ... he DID NOT manage the city well ... if anything, we should thank council and norm kelly from preventing him from doing anything that could have messed things up ...
    For sure. City council literally voted to ensure that he had no power because he was such a train wreck. It is totally beyond me why people would say that's an effectual leader. It's nonsensical.
    the guy was definitely in over his head ... what kills me is this belief that he was hard-working populist mayor ... dude literally spent his days in parking lots getting drunk on taxpayers dimes and now they want to rewrite history that he was a good mayor just with personal flaws ...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003
    edited April 2016
    polaris_x said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    polaris_x said:

    BS44325 said:

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
    again ... he basically was taken off the job a year into his term ... he DID NOT manage the city well ... if anything, we should thank council and norm kelly from preventing him from doing anything that could have messed things up ...
    For sure. City council literally voted to ensure that he had no power because he was such a train wreck. It is totally beyond me why people would say that's an effectual leader. It's nonsensical.
    the guy was definitely in over his head ... what kills me is this belief that he was hard-working populist mayor ... dude literally spent his days in parking lots getting drunk on taxpayers dimes and now they want to rewrite history that he was a good mayor just with personal flaws ...
    I know. I am aware of the stories about how he would personally answer phone calls and drive out to people's houses when they had paltry issues - stuff like whether or not they were allowed to cut down a tree, or the city was taking too long to get around to fixing a pipe. And I do believe he did this kind of thing... a handful of times (and frankly, he probably did stuff like that because he was under the influence and to someone on drugs such an idea is pure genius). And then it turned into legend. And that is what the tiny minority that is "Ford Nation" ran with. It's all so stupid.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 5,895
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 17,437
    Still goes down as the greatest tie a politician has ever worn ...

    image
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    polaris_x said:

    BS44325 said:

    on the contrary, I saw loads and loads of coverage of exactly why, even amidst all of his nonsense, people still had his back. no doubt he was a man of the people. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I think some even gravitated towards him even more after all this came out. he became a human being with flaws, and people identify with that.

    it's funny you say his behaviour didn't affect the city at all, yet seem to give him credit for all of the growth that toronto enjoyed during his tenure. that doesn't happen overnight with one guy as mayor. people don't just up and leave their homes and move their business because of the mayor of a city. toronto is a big player on the global scale. It can be argued that growth would have happened with or without him.

    I didn't give him credit for all the growth...in fact I specifically said it wasn't his doing...I just said that he managed the city well during the period of growth despite all his buffoonery. Conservatives like me believe it is the citizenry that creates growth where as politicians can either unwittingly restrict it, through the consequences of good intentions, or promote it by getting the government out of the way. Ford believed in getting government out of the way.
    again ... he basically was taken off the job a year into his term ... he DID NOT manage the city well ... if anything, we should thank council and norm kelly from preventing him from doing anything that could have messed things up ...
    Sorry to nitpick, but he was "taken off the job" with basically a year left in his term, roughly 3 years into his term. Also, please see my above reference to Drake's hype man Norm Kelly, he was far from an ideal replacement, abandoning the city at a time when many, many residents were experiencing a crisis.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    PJ_Soul said:

    I'm by no means suggesting the man be deified. However, every statement made about his crack-smoking, gangbanging, murderous (that one's a load of horseshit, sorry) ways should be immediately followed by something to the effect of "by all reports he reformed those behaviours," which isn't happening.

    Yes, the man was a buffoon of sorts, and his personal behaviours (which weren't known at election time) became increasingly embarrassing and indefensible as time went on. That said, his policies remained unchanged, many of which were successfully implemented (and some of which the current mayor and council are turning into jokes, such as the Scarborough subway).

    Policy-wise, he remains admirable to many. As far as his personal life, I would say that while there is much past cause for embarrassment, he did make some positive changes to his life and lifestyle.

    And just a reminder, that the man chosen to "replace" Ford as mayor flew off to Florida for a couple days while tens (if not hundreds) of thousands were without power in the city (ours was out for a full week). So, from my perspective, one fool was replaced with another.

    One more suggestion I'd like to make is to wonder whether we would talk about our own family members who have gone through similar struggles in the same way, regardless of what job they might hold/have held? While I'm the first to agree that public figures are open to heightened scrutiny, at the end of the day they're just humans, being. Or human beings, lol.

    The only reason he reformed those behaviours is because he got cancer though. He was obviously a man of low moral character (and I'm not saying that because he was an addict). He didn't reform from that. He just got too sick to run rampant with it.
    Again, I'm sorry to nitpick, but while he likely had the cancer during his rehab, it wasn't diagnosed until well after he'd completed the program, while he was running for a second term as mayor. I remain convinced that had he relapsed on the crack-smoking, certainly we residents of Toronto would have known, likely the world via Jimmy Kimmel.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003
    edited April 2016

    PJ_Soul said:

    I'm by no means suggesting the man be deified. However, every statement made about his crack-smoking, gangbanging, murderous (that one's a load of horseshit, sorry) ways should be immediately followed by something to the effect of "by all reports he reformed those behaviours," which isn't happening.

    Yes, the man was a buffoon of sorts, and his personal behaviours (which weren't known at election time) became increasingly embarrassing and indefensible as time went on. That said, his policies remained unchanged, many of which were successfully implemented (and some of which the current mayor and council are turning into jokes, such as the Scarborough subway).

    Policy-wise, he remains admirable to many. As far as his personal life, I would say that while there is much past cause for embarrassment, he did make some positive changes to his life and lifestyle.

    And just a reminder, that the man chosen to "replace" Ford as mayor flew off to Florida for a couple days while tens (if not hundreds) of thousands were without power in the city (ours was out for a full week). So, from my perspective, one fool was replaced with another.

    One more suggestion I'd like to make is to wonder whether we would talk about our own family members who have gone through similar struggles in the same way, regardless of what job they might hold/have held? While I'm the first to agree that public figures are open to heightened scrutiny, at the end of the day they're just humans, being. Or human beings, lol.

    The only reason he reformed those behaviours is because he got cancer though. He was obviously a man of low moral character (and I'm not saying that because he was an addict). He didn't reform from that. He just got too sick to run rampant with it.
    Again, I'm sorry to nitpick, but while he likely had the cancer during his rehab, it wasn't diagnosed until well after he'd completed the program, while he was running for a second term as mayor. I remain convinced that had he relapsed on the crack-smoking, certainly we residents of Toronto would have known, likely the world via Jimmy Kimmel.
    I meant that was the only reason he didn't act like an idiot after rehab (plus he was feeling very bad - he was having serious stomach problems before diagnosis, which I'm sure can put a dent in partying and hanging out with dealers). Yes, that means I'm saying I had absolutely ZERO faith that he would have suddenly remained on the straight and narrow had he not become ill. I mean, only about 11 - 17% of all people who go to rehab stay straight, and Ford gave no one any reason at all to think that he would have been in that group. He obviously had absolutely no self-control. The guy couldn't even keep out of the fried chicken joint for longer than 3 days during a very public weight loss challenge for crying out loud. Nor should I or anyone else be expected to assume the best when it comes to him, since he never gave us any reason whatsoever to have any faith in his ability to act like a responsible person or mayor.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    ^^I get what you're saying, however while I'm not saying we should assume the best in him, neither should we assume the worst.

    Yes, he was an addict, an illness that yields low recovery rates, and is extremely difficult to overcome (I can attest to that, given my current attempt(s) to quit cigarettes). However, an open hand is far more helpful to the addict than a closed fist (though I do acknowledge sometimes drastic measures are necessary. Thankfully cigarettes are as far as my addictions go, so I can't truly speak to the more extreme cases of drug addiction).

    Personally I found the fried chicken incident pathetic, and one of the first instances of the very public humiliation of Rob Ford. If you watch the video, the woman filming it is sitting in her car with her 3 year-old child (after visiting the fried chicken joint herself, speaks volumes about her own parenting), while cackling at the mayor. Again, her behaviour speaks volumes about her parenting, what nice behaviour to expose their young child to (by the way, I feel that if one is going to do something like she did, she has opened herself up to criticism).

    Yes, Ford had impulse issues, but absent of proof, we both have to accept that both our points of view (whether or not rehab was successful in Ford's case) are equally valid.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,252

    ^^I get what you're saying, however while I'm not saying we should assume the best in him, neither should we assume the worst.

    Yes, he was an addict, an illness that yields low recovery rates, and is extremely difficult to overcome (I can attest to that, given my current attempt(s) to quit cigarettes). However, an open hand is far more helpful to the addict than a closed fist (though I do acknowledge sometimes drastic measures are necessary. Thankfully cigarettes are as far as my addictions go, so I can't truly speak to the more extreme cases of drug addiction).

    Personally I found the fried chicken incident pathetic, and one of the first instances of the very public humiliation of Rob Ford. If you watch the video, the woman filming it is sitting in her car with her 3 year-old child (after visiting the fried chicken joint herself, speaks volumes about her own parenting), while cackling at the mayor. Again, her behaviour speaks volumes about her parenting, what nice behaviour to expose their young child to (by the way, I feel that if one is going to do something like she did, she has opened herself up to criticism).

    Yes, Ford had impulse issues, but absent of proof, we both have to accept that both our points of view (whether or not rehab was successful in Ford's case) are equally valid.

    PJ soul is just going with the stats, as far as I'm concerned. not a bias against RF.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078

    ^^I get what you're saying, however while I'm not saying we should assume the best in him, neither should we assume the worst.

    Yes, he was an addict, an illness that yields low recovery rates, and is extremely difficult to overcome (I can attest to that, given my current attempt(s) to quit cigarettes). However, an open hand is far more helpful to the addict than a closed fist (though I do acknowledge sometimes drastic measures are necessary. Thankfully cigarettes are as far as my addictions go, so I can't truly speak to the more extreme cases of drug addiction).

    Personally I found the fried chicken incident pathetic, and one of the first instances of the very public humiliation of Rob Ford. If you watch the video, the woman filming it is sitting in her car with her 3 year-old child (after visiting the fried chicken joint herself, speaks volumes about her own parenting), while cackling at the mayor. Again, her behaviour speaks volumes about her parenting, what nice behaviour to expose their young child to (by the way, I feel that if one is going to do something like she did, she has opened herself up to criticism).

    Yes, Ford had impulse issues, but absent of proof, we both have to accept that both our points of view (whether or not rehab was successful in Ford's case) are equally valid.

    PJ soul is just going with the stats, as far as I'm concerned. not a bias against RF.
    I realize that the success rate in treating addiction is relatively low, but it would be nice to also acknowledge the legitimate struggles ALL addicts go through in trying to control their compulsions. By no means do I mean for anyone to take anything personally, sorry if I came across that way.

    At this point in the discussion, I'm genuinely curious about the Ford-bashers' take on another former mayor, Mel Lastman. He of the racist comments, threats to kill a reporter (on council floor no less) and philandering. Was his "erratic" behaviour less bad, because he didn't own up to his actions until well after he was out of office, and claimed it was because of medications he was on? Personally I see them both as equally bad, but I'm wondering what others think of Lastman in relation to Ford.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,252
    ford bashing? ford truth telling.

    I don't know anything about Lastman except what you typed here.
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078

    ford bashing? ford truth telling.

    I don't know anything about Lastman except what you typed here.

    When people are asserting things such as Ford's rehab being unsuccessful with zero proof to back up their claim, I call that bashing, sorry. If there were any facts being cited, I could then agree with it being truth-telling.

    As a resident, Lastman was as embarassing as Ford, except we didn't know at the time why he was doing what he was doing or saying what he was saying. I guess threatening to kill a reporter (who had exposed Lastman's wife's kleptomania) wasn't salacious enough for national, much less international press coverage. Locally, Lastman did receive some unfair press, such as when he was caught shaking hands with a member of the Hell's Angels (who were having a convention/gathering in town, Lastman was just doing a politician's job of shaking the hand of someone who approached him), and it was portrayed as if Lastman should have known who's hand he was shaking. I might suggest googling him, hopefully it's at least worth a chuckle, and might help explain how a man like Ford got elected to the same office.

    I do live in the town where in the 90s a local band was banned from playing a city function because of their name, The Barenaked Ladies.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,003
    edited April 2016
    His rehab was neither successful nor unsuccessful because he got cancer and died instead of having the chance to show us if it would have worked. It is not bashing, however, to say that his track record gives us no reason to think it would have been successful otherwise. It's common sense.
    But anyway, it is not just his addiction problems that were the issue. Not even remotely close. I actually said earlier in the thread that that was the least of his problems as far as what kind of person he came off as. He did a LOT of really creepy and slimeball shit in his life. He never once showed himself to be a good, stand up kind of guy. He did many, many things to prove the opposite. His fraternizing with drug dealers, his connections to other illegal activity, were just a few of those thing (btw, just because someone has an addiction it doesn't mean that it's reasonable to befriend the dealers, use them as lackies, etc etc. Ford went a LOT further than just getting on to crack. But FWIW, I absolutely DO judge people who make the decision to do a drug like crack in the first place. There is a kind of drug tier, and crack is way down at the bottom. Most people would never consider trying it, especially not those in his position. That he even had a "first time" with crack was pretty ominous in terms of his character.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • DarthMaeglinDarthMaeglin TorontoPosts: 1,078
    PJ_Soul said:

    His rehab was neither successful nor unsuccessful because he got cancer and died instead of having the chance to show us if it would have worked. It is not bashing, however, to say that his track record gives us no reason to think it would have been successful otherwise. It's common sense.

    Yet, by all known accounts, his rehab was successful. Applying statistics to an individual case starts us on a very slippery slope, I feel, though I do get the point you're trying to make.

    Again, being from Vancouver you may not realize the toxic media environment of those days that we were forced to endure locally, with the media camped out on his front lawn, reporters skulking around their property. I remain convinced (as you seem equally unconvinced) that had Ford relapsed, we would have known, but it seems he stayed clean for the last year of his life, even prior to the cancer diagnosis. Don't forget, it was through people that purported to be his friends that much of this was discovered, thanks to the hidden camera videos. I just can't see it NOT coming out had he relapsed.
    "The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."

    10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016
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