confederate flag: offensive or historical? (part II)

RiotZact

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Godfather. said:

and they say the south will rise again....this flag issue autta give it a jump-start.

Godfather.

Huh?

the flag issue will only make southern pride stronger, people come together when thier heritage is attacked, just my guess.

Godfather.

Define that heritage please.

well of corse the south will not rise as Gimmi stated but southen pride will or might spike, it seems that not all people are willing to give up thier history just because a group of prius driving cale eating hippies calls if racism and I find it funny that thier only argument is sumed up in one word "racism" the good ol' stand by word for almost any debate and some folks are getting tired of it....but in the end we'll see how this turns out.

Godfather.

Define that heritage. What components make up southern heritage?

history & pride

Godfather.

Proud of what and elements of that history, explain please.

Yep that's the question everyone dodges, I live in a pretty redneck area of PA and I've had this argument quite a few times in the past few weeks. "The civil war wasn't just about slavery" well then what else was it about? Literally the best answer I've gotten to that question is "I don't know but I'm sure there was other things." So at the very best people are fighting for a flag that is racist or a flag that they have no idea what exactly it means.

PJ_Soul

I don't think anyone thinks that people can't fly this flag. It's the government flying it that's not okay.

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

Godfather. said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Godfather. said:

and they say the south will rise again....this flag issue autta give it a jump-start.

Godfather.

Huh?

the flag issue will only make southern pride stronger, people come together when thier heritage is attacked, just my guess.

Godfather.

Define that heritage please.

well of corse the south will not rise as Gimmi stated but southen pride will or might spike, it seems that not all people are willing to give up thier history just because a group of prius driving cale eating hippies calls if racism and I find it funny that thier only argument is sumed up in one word "racism" the good ol' stand by word for almost any debate and some folks are getting tired of it....but in the end we'll see how this turns out.

Godfather.

Define that heritage. What components make up southern heritage?

history & pride

Godfather.

Proud of what and elements of that history, explain please.

HAHAHAHHAHA well I see what your doing here....nice ! but I don't want to play.
lets just say we might disagree.

Godfather.

It's a pretty reasonable question. Are you not answering because you have no idea?

Godfather.

you all must not read up on the history of that war, it was actually bloodier than just about any war after it, generations of southern familys still live in those areas and that flag represents the courage and loss of family members but the race card holders wouldn't understand that, btw my brother n laws family members fought in that war and he has pictures and even a old rifle past down from generation to generation and that's heritage and pride...but go ahead and pull your race card and I'll see if I can give a shit for it...probably not thou.

Godfather.

mickeyrat

Still not an answer. What does it mean?

Godfather.

mickeyrat said:

Still not an answer. What does it mean?

you mean still the answer you want.

Godfather.

Godfather.

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm

here ya go a little history everybody should enjoy....even the race card wavers.

Godfather.

jeffbr

Godfather. said:

you all must not read up on the history of that war, it was actually bloodier than just about any war after it, generations of southern familys still live in those areas and that flag represents the courage and loss of family members but the race card holders wouldn't understand that, btw my brother n laws family members fought in that war and he has pictures and even a old rifle past down from generation to generation and that's heritage and pride...but go ahead and pull your race card and I'll see if I can give a shit for it...probably not thou.

Godfather.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't understand why people are proud of their ancestors fighting in a war against their own country (traitors), in a fight for the continuation of slavery (racists). Sure they were brave, and too many people lost their lives, but being proud of that fight or the association with that cause makes no sense to me. To top it off, they were the losers. So I guess I'm not sure which component fills them with the most pride - their ancestors being traitors, racists, or losers. Or maybe they're proud of the whole package. Just not getting it, but I'm just a Yankee, so wouldn't really understand I guess.

riotgrl

Revisionist history. The Confederates lost, they rewrote events to justify their position (racist) and loss. Hence, terms like "war of northern aggression" that were still in textbooks in the South 15-20 years ago. Succeeding generations have believed the revised view of events ever since the war ended. At the end of the war, the south starting saying it was about other "things" like economic issues and states rights. However, they never get beyond the surface and explain that the entire southern economy was based on one thing - agriculture - which was completely dependent on slave labor. And the only states right in question was the right to retain 'property', i.e., slaves.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

you all must not read up on the history of that war, it was actually bloodier than just about any war after it, generations of southern familys still live in those areas and that flag represents the courage and loss of family members but the race card holders wouldn't understand that, btw my brother n laws family members fought in that war and he has pictures and even a old rifle past down from generation to generation and that's heritage and pride...but go ahead and pull your race card and I'll see if I can give a shit for it...probably not thou.

Godfather.

I had a boyfriend whose grandfather fought for the Nazis and he was a proud German and lost many people he cared about in that war, but he didn't fly a swastika.

jeffbr

Godfather. said:

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm

here ya go a little history everybody should enjoy....even the race card wavers.

Godfather.

I suppose I'm a "race card waver" on this topic, so here's what I got from the article.

Point 1 talks about economics, and the need for the South to rely on slavery for their cotton industry.

Point 2 talks about states rights - and what states rights were they fighting for? The right to continue to own slaves.

Point 3 talks about conflicts between proponents and opponents of slavery.

Point 4 talks about the north becoming more polarized against slavery.

Point 5 talks about the south disliking Lincoln because he was anti-slavery.

So as far as I can tell, the top 5 reasons for the Civil War were related to slavery, which is what most of us have been saying. I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across with the article, but it reinforces the notion that the war was about the south wanting to protect their slave labor.

mickeyrat

GF I am not looking to bait you or judge you. Others might be. but I think on the whole I have treated you fairly and respectfully but for a few jokes a while ago . if you feel otherwise please tell me via pm.

Part of all of this is the seeming inability or desire to be honest about what was, what has been and what continues to be.

Frankly, until open and honest discussion and action behind that discussion occurs , nothing will ever change for the benefit of all.

The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country.

When or how can it change otherwise?

Godfather.

mickeyrat said:

GF I am not looking to bait you or judge you. Others might be. but I think on the whole I have treated you fairly and respectfully but for a few jokes a while ago . if you feel otherwise please tell me via pm.

Part of all of this is the seeming inability or desire to be honest about what was, what has been and what continues to be.

Frankly, until open and honest discussion and action behind that discussion occurs , nothing will ever change for the benefit of all.

The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country.

When or how can it change otherwise?

agreed ! "The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country." When or how can it change otherwise?

growing as individuals is something that means different things to different people, but I can tell you that some people will alway be aginst the grain so to speak..this war of the south will live a lot longer just because it held the rebel atitude and that is something that will never go away, in fact that flag symbloizes the Rebel spirit more than anything in my opinion, it's like telling the government "we are a free people and we'll fight for it"

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

GF I am not looking to bait you or judge you. Others might be. but I think on the whole I have treated you fairly and respectfully but for a few jokes a while ago . if you feel otherwise please tell me via pm.

Part of all of this is the seeming inability or desire to be honest about what was, what has been and what continues to be.

Frankly, until open and honest discussion and action behind that discussion occurs , nothing will ever change for the benefit of all.

The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country.

When or how can it change otherwise?

agreed ! "The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country." When or how can it change otherwise?

growing as individuals is something that means different things to different people, but I can tell you that some people will alway be aginst the grain so to speak..this war of the south will live a lot longer just because it held the rebel atitude and that is something that will never go away, in fact that flag symbloizes the Rebel spirit more than anything in my opinion, it's like telling the government "we are a free people and we'll fight for it"

Godfather.

So what sense does it make for the government to fly it??

Godfather.

PJ_Soul said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

GF I am not looking to bait you or judge you. Others might be. but I think on the whole I have treated you fairly and respectfully but for a few jokes a while ago . if you feel otherwise please tell me via pm.

Part of all of this is the seeming inability or desire to be honest about what was, what has been and what continues to be.

Frankly, until open and honest discussion and action behind that discussion occurs , nothing will ever change for the benefit of all.

The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country.

When or how can it change otherwise?

agreed ! "The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country." When or how can it change otherwise?

growing as individuals is something that means different things to different people, but I can tell you that some people will alway be aginst the grain so to speak..this war of the south will live a lot longer just because it held the rebel atitude and that is something that will never go away, in fact that flag symbloizes the Rebel spirit more than anything in my opinion, it's like telling the government "we are a free people and we'll fight for it"

Godfather.

So what sense does it make for the government to fly it??

is the government still flying it ?

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

PJ_Soul said:

Godfather. said:

mickeyrat said:

GF I am not looking to bait you or judge you. Others might be. but I think on the whole I have treated you fairly and respectfully but for a few jokes a while ago . if you feel otherwise please tell me via pm.

Part of all of this is the seeming inability or desire to be honest about what was, what has been and what continues to be.

Frankly, until open and honest discussion and action behind that discussion occurs , nothing will ever change for the benefit of all.

The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country.

When or how can it change otherwise?

agreed ! "The fact it is so difficult is all the more reason to push through and grow as individuals, communitites and as a country." When or how can it change otherwise?

growing as individuals is something that means different things to different people, but I can tell you that some people will alway be aginst the grain so to speak..this war of the south will live a lot longer just because it held the rebel atitude and that is something that will never go away, in fact that flag symbloizes the Rebel spirit more than anything in my opinion, it's like telling the government "we are a free people and we'll fight for it"

Godfather.

So what sense does it make for the government to fly it??

is the government still flying it ?

Godfather.

Seriously? That is what the entire debate is about.

PJ_Soul

http://happyplace.someecards.com/news/a-man-who-used-to-fly-the-confederate-flag-wrote-a-viral-post-about-why-he-changed-his-mind/

Last-12-Exit

Godfather. said:

you all must not read up on the history of that war, it was actually bloodier than just about any war after it, generations of southern familys still live in those areas and that flag represents the courage and loss of family members but the race card holders wouldn't understand that, btw my brother n laws family members fought in that war and he has pictures and even a old rifle past down from generation to generation and that's heritage and pride...but go ahead and pull your race card and I'll see if I can give a shit for it...probably not thou.

Godfather.

No it does not. That's absurd. Most people fly that flag because they are racist. I don't know whereyou live GF but you really should stop kidding yourself with that BS. Most of the people that fly that flag don't even know how to spell civil war let alone know any relative that fought in it. Seriously? The war was almost 200 years ago.

Edit: I am not talking about your specific relatives that fought in the war GF.

g under p

PJ_Soul said:

http://happyplace.someecards.com/news/a-man-who-used-to-fly-the-confederate-flag-wrote-a-viral-post-about-why-he-changed-his-mind/

Wow, that is one bright, insightful grown up young man....I liked what he said about putting one self in someone else's shoes. There one might better understand the issue of this flag flying over government buildings....OUTSTANDING!

This part of what he had to say hits the nail on the head,.....




It wasn't until well into my college years when I began to start thinking for myself. I no longer let the people I was raised by tell me how to view every issue and tried my best to be more open-minded. I believe that one of the most important things for us to do as humans is to try putting ourselves in others' shoes before we make any kind of judgement.

Although I never meant anything racist by sporting the Confederate flag, I couldn't help but think of what some of my black friends thought about it. I really can't think of a time that I was confronted about it. Did it not offend them? Were they too nice or afraid to confront me about it? The more I researched about the history of the flag, the worse I felt. What I had been told about its history was wrong. Thousands of southerners still fly the flag with no racist intent. They still defend the good things they've been told about the flag. They, like I once was, are WRONG. The flag is a symbol of a way of life that was wrong. Not that it needs to be stated, but slavery is one of the most evil and cruel things this world has ever seen. The Confederate flag represents this evil. Where is the pride in that? The Confederate flag is also a sign of division. How can you truly be a patriot of this country and fly this flag? Do we really need to fly a flag to show that we are southern, or that we like to hunt and fish, especially when it's offensive to so many? It is not a kind thing, a good thing, or the right thing to do.

To those against removing the flag, I do not think you are a bad person. I know what it once meant to me. I do, however, challenge you to do your research. Step outside of what your family taught you and be open-minded. Even if you believe in a different history lesson, is flying a flag worth the pain it causes others? Please try to view these issues from the other side of the argument.
To those I may have offended in the past, who never confronted me, I apologize. I was WRONG.

As our country continues to move forward on equality issues, I believe the only place for the Confederate flag is in our history books.

Peace

PJfanwillneverleave1

No wonder this flag is so divisive in America.
You Americans can't even decide in your own country what it symbolizes.
The outside world sees it as a symbol of redneck racism and slavery.
What is taking your country so long to see this aspect?

HesCalledDyer

The fact that I see dozens of Confederate flags here in my home states of Maryland & West Virginia ought to tell you something about the people flying/displaying them...

It does NOT symbolize courage... it symbolizes narrow-minded, uneducated, racist fuckin rednecks. Period.