Come on over, ya'll! Although, I don't really care for sweet tea - too sweet for me! My Oaks Lily (vodka drink that is the official drink of the Oaks Race which is the day before the Kentucky Derby) is even better
I had sweet tea once when we were in Columbus...holy hell! WAY sweet for me. Then again, I never put sugar in my iced tea to begin with
As to flags, I've never flown one myself but growing up, my dad hung the American flag for Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc. As a German-born citizen, that cloth symbolized much for him, liberty included. I never felt shame in seeing it on our front porch; in fact, thinking about it brings sweet memories to mind.
If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?
If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?
If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?
If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1 2024-08-31 Wrigley 2 2024-09-15 Fenway 1 2024-09-27 Ohana 1 2024-09-29 Ohana 2
If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?
If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?
If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?
If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
Bingo
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,197
I never said ALL but fine I will take that bait. As a southerner who has had to listen to Confederate flag defenders for the entirety of my life, unlike you who has lived outside of the south for the majority of your life, it is racist to fly the flag on your front porch or on your car. People, like my family, like you, like your friends, can twist the meaning all you want but if you actually understood ANY of the history of the South or the Civil War then you would understand that SLAVERY is RACIST. You can twist the facts any way you like but that flag does nothing but represent the hatred of an entire ethnic/racial group. Anyone who lives in the south today knows that racism is alive and well, especially in a deep south state like GA. There are Jim Crow laws still in existence - many counties refuse to remove them from the laws 'because of their historical significance'. There are places in the deep south that still have signage denoting the Jim Crow laws and they are not removed 'for historical significance'. These are racist things NOT historical things. I, and others on here, have acknowledged the historical signficance of this flag. I, and others have acknowledged, that there are instances in which flying the flag is acceptable but to use it to 'honor the dead' or to represent southern pride is not acceptable. I do feel very strongly about this because I have to live this shit every damn day of my life. I am tired of racist rednecks without an iota of historical knowledge proclaiming their southern pride in an institution that dehumanized and HATED blacks. Religion excused it away, economic institutions excused it, politicians used it to their advantage. For shame, that southerners think that what this flag SYMBOLIZES, is anything to take pride in. I take a deep pride in being from the south. I take pride in things like calling my carbonated beverage a coke. I take pride in the totally amazing sweet tea and fried chicken that I make. I take pride in the ingrained sense of politeness, graciousness, and willingness to help others that is inherent in the south. I take pride in the care we bestow on our historical monuments and our willingness to change on so many accounts. But racism is alive and well in the south. And I find your defense of a symbol that is about hate and is about racism, and not about history, offensive.
Again here in West Plam Beach Florida, just a few hours ago driving up highway 441 I saw a SUV covered from top to bottom in mud. The SUV also had a Confederate Flag sticker in the shape of Florida, my first thought wasn't of any hate, towards the sticker or the person driving (a young man in his 20's) my first thought was that thing NEEDS A WASH. Then I thought maybe he's thinking like an elephant who throws mud on his back to keep cool and to ward off flies. He did not have his air conditioner on so maybe he's unto a good thing or revolutionary idea.
People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.
In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.
Where is your TOLERANCE?
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.
In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.
People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.
In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.
If someone supports states' rights but NOT the institution of slavery, why don't people display their state flag and not the Confederate flag?
If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?
If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?
If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
Because that is not the flag that their ancestors held when they suffered and died.
Many who fought did not support slavery either.
How about you and others learn to hate the haters who deserve it
and leave those who are honoring history and loved ones lost in the war ...
to their personal dedication. Must be too difficult to differentiate amidst all the judging.
I have never liked the word tolerance...
it presumes there is something wrong with someone or something that must be tolerated.
I know I need not tolerate my friends and others whose motives are pure...
when they display their flag historically for loved ones lost,
why would there be the need?
Tolerate the hate groups then ? Well I would ignore them mostly.
Why give the haters the satisfaction. Why give them the flag for evil totally
when we have good loving kind hearted people who want to use the flag based
in love? Yes I would not tolerate them I would ignore.
Tolerate those who find it impossible to not judge ALL who hold the flag.
I think not.
Tolerate the people who pick and choose what group to hate not realizing
in doing so they themselves are hating ... they are no different than a hate group.
I guess I have to tolerate these fools what choice do I have?
They know not what they do.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,079
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
WTF was that about?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Can anyone explain why some have such lust or love for a FLAG to begin with? What's with the love affair? I know that I don't need any stinking flag to symbolize my love of whatever country/state/universe/planet/galaxy I'm from. I don't need a piece of fabric on a stick to represent who I am, so why do others? I get that it's history, I get that it coincides with military duty, etc. But flags in general only have the use that one puts into them. If they're signified with a universal negative connotation (as the Confederate is) then why be a source of disrespect to the rest of human civilization? Why bother?
This is what I find so confusing. I can understand pride. I understand wanting others to know you are proud of your great great great great great grandfather. But to do so, knowing there are many/entire races that find it offensive... honestly, even if someone has ZERO negative motives, you'd think they might reconsider just out of respect, and as Mike said, display a hat or uniform, or put a civil war history book on your goddamn coffee table or something... :?
No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.
But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
WTF was that about?
Some will never get pass the fact that they lost the war and that we're still all one, united country.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,079
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
WTF was that about?
Some will never get pass the fact that they lost the war and that we're still all one, united country.
From the looks of these guys- and I mean really- I'm pretty sure they caught a ride with Marty McFly in the up coming "Back to the Future IV".
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,197
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
WTF was that about?
high as a kite or drunk as a skunk take your pick
Making excuses now for that kind of behavior now. However, then again ONLY YOU would know they could NEVER actually mean what was said without any influence to a passing car.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
The last time a pick up truck flying the confederate flag drove past me the guy riding shotgun (and it wouldn't surprise me if he was carrying a loaded shotgun) leaned half way out the window and screamed at me something about, "We're gonna win next time!". And I'm thinking, um, dude, do I look like freakin' Ulysses S. Grant with a close shave?
WTF was that about?
high as a kite or drunk as a skunk take your pick
Making excuses now for that kind of behavior now. However, then again ONLY YOU would know they could NEVER actually mean what was said without any influence to a passing car.
Peace
That may have been an attempt at levity, well that was how I took it.
I don't think anyone was making excuses for bad hateful actions.
Wasn't the idea to see the difference between good and bad?
I thought good for those who could understand the difference.
But man people say and do crazy shit when high and drunk
most all got stories.
I just wanted to say that I am glad this thread did not get locked. I know that I have been harsh and intolerant on this issue, perhaps most especially towards Pandora; however, I feel very strongly that we, as a country, do not have real and honest conversations about racism. While the bulk of this discussion has centered on the Confederate flag, I do think we hit on some underlying issues regarding racism and I am grateful that we were able to have this conversation, contentious at times yes, but hopefully productive as well. Hope this doesn't come across as patronizing but I am glad that there is a place where discussions like this can happen. If any of you find yourself in Louisville, KY then I hope you know you will always be welcome at my home!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I don't think you have been harsh riotgrl. You have expressed yourself in a very learned and sensible way. You, more than most on the thread, have first hand experience of the general feelings about this flag. Also, you seem to be very knowledgeable about the historical aspect of this and also understand it!
Yes, the south does have an inherent issue with certain racist attitudes (I know... not just the south..) and 'embracing' and/or flaunting such a flagrant symbol (as perceived by the large majority) of this attitude only goes to perpetuate this bigoted and agonistic mindset.
Being in the South myself I would disagree that the South has anymore racist views
than in other parts of the country,which I have lived in as well.
That is the type of view that has been focused on in this thread.
That type prejudice.
As I said, not just the south but I do feel the south does have more inherent issues than some other parts of the US (and yes, I have lived in the south - the deep south). Riotgrl has touched upon these issues in one of her posts. It's not always a question of being deeply and obviously racist but sometimes an 'attitude', a belief a 'I'm not racist and I have a black friend but.....' attitude.
Most of my southern friends do not display any racist attitude whatsoever just as my 'other' friends, but the same cannot be said for all.
I guess the reason why the focus has been on the south is because we are discussing a southern flag flown, mostly by southern people, with either pride, arrogance, superiority, belligerence or just plain ignorance of it's symbolism.
The racist attitudes in much of the South are very subtle. I am sure most people don't spend their time examining the attitudes of their friends and family because they are not overt in their attitudes nor behavior. However, that doesn't mean that it's not there. As I said before, talking about racism can only be a good thing. And while I agree that racism exists everywhere in this nation, I do believe that it is more pervasive in the south mostly as a legacy of first slavery then segregation.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Can anyone explain why some have such lust or love for a FLAG to begin with? What's with the love affair? I know that I don't need any stinking flag to symbolize my love of whatever country/state/universe/planet/galaxy I'm from. I don't need a piece of fabric on a stick to represent who I am, so why do others? I get that it's history, I get that it coincides with military duty, etc. But flags in general only have the use that one puts into them. If they're signified with a universal negative connotation (as the Confederate is) then why be a source of disrespect to the rest of human civilization? Why bother?
This is what I find so confusing. I can understand pride. I understand wanting others to know you are proud of your great great great great great grandfather. But to do so, knowing there are many/entire races that find it offensive... honestly, even if someone has ZERO negative motives, you'd think they might reconsider just out of respect, and as Mike said, display a hat or uniform, or put a civil war history book on your goddamn coffee table or something... :?
No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.
But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?
Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.
I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.
Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.
But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.
The South is no different than anywhere else. It is far less segregated and less hateful
in general that other parts of the country.
It is the person who is viewing, their problem, due to bias.
Whether that be with family members who hold very different views than theirs,
or personal embarrassment of how the South is viewed for it's history or their own generalized
prejudice.
The South gets so much more guff that really has absolutely no basis,
you know like a standing joke of sorts. Probably based in the history.
The South has so much pride based on this alone. Got to stay strong!
I love the strength of of the South and why the Rise Again is very important.
This thread and the nasty stuff said about Southerners is the crux to rise...
it is really rise above.
Rise above all the prejudice for the South not from the South. :fp:
No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.
But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?
Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.
I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.
Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.
But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.
I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.
I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.
I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.
Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.
But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.
I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.
I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.
Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.
I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.
Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.
But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.
I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.
I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.
Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.
Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.
Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.
Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.
I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.
I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.
Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.
Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.
Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.
Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.
But you simply cant disregard what it stands for. We're not just talking about it as a hobby. You can make it fit your agenda all day long, but if you look at how the entire population views Pearl Jam versus how the entire population views the confederate flag, you cant disregard the symbolism... especially if you're going to make an analogy while we're discussing the political ramifications of each. And we're not just talking about the people who have good intentions. I know there are some of course. We are talking about how the flag is perceived, and how it can be found offensive by an entire race. You cant simply leave that out of the discussion. I cant believe I have to explain why this analogy doesnt work. :?
Being afraid of cats? :? oh man, this just gets worse and worse...
But now that I think of it, Eddie did piss off a whole lotta southerners when he "impaled" the George Bush mask on the mic stand a few years back, so maybe the analogy could stand a bit. Not much, but at least some people dislike Eddies politics too. So there's that. But the band has never been associated with the KKK or anything like that, that Im aware of.
Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.
Like I said the analogy was on a hobby not on something offensive, that makes no sense,
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.
Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.
Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.
But you simply cant disregard what it stands for. We're not just talking about it as a hobby. You can make it fit your agenda all day long, but if you look at how the entire population views Pearl Jam versus how the entire population views the confederate flag, you cant disregard the symbolism... especially if you're going to make an analogy while we're discussing the political ramifications of each. And we're not just talking about the people who have good intentions. I know there are some of course. We are talking about how the flag is perceived, and how it can be found offensive by an entire race. You cant simply leave that out of the discussion. I cant believe I have to explain why this analogy doesnt work. :?
Being afraid of cats? :? oh man, this just gets worse and worse...
But now that I think of it, Eddie did piss off a whole lotta southerners when he "impaled" the George Bush mask on the mic stand a few years back, so maybe the analogy could stand a bit. Not much, but at least some people dislike Eddies politics too. So there's that. But the band has never been associated with the KKK or anything like that, that Im aware of.
It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better
It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.
Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.
Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.
It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better
I completely understood where she was coming from. I explained all of this in my last post. Did you miss that I said I understand if she was talking about the very few, tiny part of the population that collect things like this? And that we're talking about the bigger picture, not just a few folks in Pandora's neighborhood? :fp:
It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.
Fine, if you want to just see it as regarding Pandora's neighbors, then there's no point in talking about the bigger picture with you. Im guessing you havent read the rest of the thread where we were discussing how it is perceived and the motivations, and history of the flag? Its ok, i'll give you a pass this time..
Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.
:? Im just saying the analogy doesnt work because of the bigger picture. I think you are twisting my words. Do you disagree that the confederate flag has been associated with hate groups, racism, and hate? Do you not see how comparing a flag that sometimes represents these things is a far, far stretch when comparing to collecting pearl jam posters? Yes, your agenda is to compare the flag to collecting PJ posters, WITHOUT respect to the symbolism and how it affects the entire country! You just conveniently want to leave that out.. Thats pretty clear to me.
ALL I ask is that if you make an analogy of flying the confederate flag to collecting pearl jam posters, that you acknowledge the fact that they both have clear and separate affects on people, and that they can be perceived as something completely different... and one is hurtful and one isnt.
Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.
No, it just gave me all I need. It showed me how seriously you take the history of slavery and racism and used analogies like collecting posters and hating cats and suddenly loving cats to the plight of an entire race. :? I understand what you wrote, its just ridiculous in these contexts, sorry.
It was about collecting not the flag just those who collect stuff.. thats how I took it.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better
I completely understood where she was coming from. I explained all of this in my last post. Did you miss that I said I understand if she was talking about the very few, tiny part of the population that collect things like this? And that we're talking about the bigger picture, not just a few folks in Pandora's neighborhood? :fp:
It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.
Fine, if you want to just see it as regarding Pandora's neighbors, then there's no point in talking about the bigger picture with you. Im guessing you havent read the rest of the thread where we were discussing how it is perceived and the motivations, and history of the flag? Its ok, i'll give you a pass this time..
Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.
:? Im just saying the analogy doesnt work because of the bigger picture. I think you are twisting my words. Do you disagree that the confederate flag has been associated with hate groups, racism, and hate? Do you not see how comparing a flag that sometimes represents these things is a far, far stretch when comparing to collecting pearl jam posters? Yes, your agenda is to compare the flag to collecting PJ posters, WITHOUT respect to the symbolism and how it affects the entire country! You just conveniently want to leave that out.. Thats pretty clear to me.
ALL I ask is that if you make an analogy of flying the confederate flag to collecting pearl jam posters, that you acknowledge the fact that they both have clear and separate affects on people, and that they can be perceived as something completely different... and one is hurtful and one isnt.
Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.
No, it just gave me all I need. It showed me how seriously you take the history of slavery and racism and used analogies like collecting posters and hating cats and suddenly loving cats to the plight of an entire race. :? I understand what you wrote, its just ridiculous in these contexts, sorry.
I don't think you got the cat thing because love is never ridiculous,
well maybe to you.
I have read most of the thread and enjoyed some of it. I get the posts about love in the thread.
Did you? Or more focused on the hate maybe?
I don't remember reading anything about neighbors :?
and I don't think you understood the posts you are referring to at all.
I read what you said about the very few before. I totally disagree it is a very few
in our country but you seem set on not acknowledging love in more ways than one.
Don't assume people are not serious they might just be serious
in a different way than you.
And it seems analogies mean different things to different people
that's for sure we should be able to agree on that
I don't think you got the cat thing because love is never ridiculous,
well maybe to you.
I have read most of the thread and enjoyed some of it. I get the posts about love in the thread.
Did you? Or more focused on the hate maybe?
I don't remember reading anything about neighbors :?
and I don't think you understood the posts you are referring to at all.
I read what you said about the very few before. I totally disagree it is a very few
in our country but you seem set on not acknowledging love in more ways than one.
Don't assume people are not serious they might just be serious
in a different way than you.
And it seems analogies mean different things to different people
that's for sure we should be able to agree on that
I see you're having a tough time following along.. Where did I say "love" was ridiculous? I was saying the analogy is ridiculous and shows how seriously you take some of the symbolism behind the confederate flag.
Sure, im focused on hate -- Im focused on the people who hate and use the confederate flag to show that. I've seen it plenty in my time and I dont take it lightly because in most instances Ive come across, Ive been disgusted by the folks who use it. Obviously, more than others.
Pandora's neighbors.. I was being facetious, referring to her handful of friends that wave the flag and mean no harm by it. it was easier to type.
I dont care if you dont think I understand.. its obvious to me that you dont see the bigger picture of the analogy and why I said I disagreed with it. So tell me in your next post about how you didnt like spinach casserole when you were 12 years old and now you dont mind it and how that means that nobody meant any harm or disrespect to black people by flying a confederate flag. :?
Forget all this asinine analogy shit... Do you agree or not that the confederate flag is offensive to the majority of black people or not? do you understand why, when the flag was raised on certain capital buildings in recent years, that it was demanded taken down?
Comments
As to flags, I've never flown one myself but growing up, my dad hung the American flag for Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc. As a German-born citizen, that cloth symbolized much for him, liberty included. I never felt shame in seeing it on our front porch; in fact, thinking about it brings sweet memories to mind.
If someone supports the history of the South but not it's history of racism, why don't they display their state flag?
If someone likes the uniforms and military history, why don't they try out for a run of "The Civil War" musical?
If someone didn't support slavery or racism, why would they continue to fly a flag that was the symbol of a secessionist army that did support those things?
2003-06-16 St. Paul
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2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
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2024-09-29 Ohana 2
Bingo
Again here in West Plam Beach Florida, just a few hours ago driving up highway 441 I saw a SUV covered from top to bottom in mud. The SUV also had a Confederate Flag sticker in the shape of Florida, my first thought wasn't of any hate, towards the sticker or the person driving (a young man in his 20's) my first thought was that thing NEEDS A WASH. Then I thought maybe he's thinking like an elephant who throws mud on his back to keep cool and to ward off flies. He did not have his air conditioner on so maybe he's unto a good thing or revolutionary idea.
People have a right to display this flag on anything they choose, I do not hate the people who choose to display this flag. However, please don't be surprised if I would want to distance myself from those who have chosen to display this flag for the reasons of Southern Pride and the history of those who fought for the civility of this country years ago.
In the end one should understand that if there even if there is a small amount of people that feel offended by the displaying of this flag, they should not be shocked that there is a backlash to its usage. There is someone here who once spoke of LOVE AND TOLERANCE, well where is the tolerance for those who feel the flag is offensive? Why does it seem the word hate and hatred to the flag and those who display it is used it as a cloak to hide behind their defense of its usage? I just don't get that, it's as if the proud historical southern pride displaying of the flag out weighs the offense taken rightfully so from those offended in fear and intimidation years ago.
Where is your TOLERANCE?
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Agreed!
Many who fought did not support slavery either.
How about you and others learn to hate the haters who deserve it
and leave those who are honoring history and loved ones lost in the war ...
to their personal dedication. Must be too difficult to differentiate amidst all the judging.
Now a Civil War musical that might be offensive
it presumes there is something wrong with someone or something that must be tolerated.
I know I need not tolerate my friends and others whose motives are pure...
when they display their flag historically for loved ones lost,
why would there be the need?
Tolerate the hate groups then ? Well I would ignore them mostly.
Why give the haters the satisfaction. Why give them the flag for evil totally
when we have good loving kind hearted people who want to use the flag based
in love? Yes I would not tolerate them I would ignore.
Tolerate those who find it impossible to not judge ALL who hold the flag.
I think not.
Tolerate the people who pick and choose what group to hate not realizing
in doing so they themselves are hating ... they are no different than a hate group.
I guess I have to tolerate these fools what choice do I have?
They know not what they do.
WTF was that about?
No Jonny I meant as far as collecting memorabilia. Some PJ fans collect. It was about as good
an analogy as a rapper encouraging drugging and raping.
But they do all that and hold the flag out of respect for lost loved ones.
Have you never been to a reenactment?
Or had a beer or two with people who enjoy history in this way?
Hmmm ... life experiences indeed.
Some will never get pass the fact that they lost the war and that we're still all one, united country.
From the looks of these guys- and I mean really- I'm pretty sure they caught a ride with Marty McFly in the up coming "Back to the Future IV".
Making excuses now for that kind of behavior now. However, then again ONLY YOU would know they could NEVER actually mean what was said without any influence to a passing car.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I don't think anyone was making excuses for bad hateful actions.
Wasn't the idea to see the difference between good and bad?
I thought good for those who could understand the difference.
But man people say and do crazy shit when high and drunk
most all got stories.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Yes, the south does have an inherent issue with certain racist attitudes (I know... not just the south..) and 'embracing' and/or flaunting such a flagrant symbol (as perceived by the large majority) of this attitude only goes to perpetuate this bigoted and agonistic mindset.
than in other parts of the country,which I have lived in as well.
That is the type of view that has been focused on in this thread.
That type prejudice.
Most of my southern friends do not display any racist attitude whatsoever just as my 'other' friends, but the same cannot be said for all.
I guess the reason why the focus has been on the south is because we are discussing a southern flag flown, mostly by southern people, with either pride, arrogance, superiority, belligerence or just plain ignorance of it's symbolism.
Another flag, another country, another focus...
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I disagree wholeheartedly about that analogy. Pearl Jam poster collecting vs. waving a confederate flag?? :? Pearl jam hasnt been associated with racism and slavery, or represented a distaste for any one race, that I'm aware of.
Yeah, I know a few people who are civil war/history buffs, and I know one guy who has done those re-enactments. Neither or them have the urge to fly the confederate flag though (that im aware of).. I assume because they dont want to be associated with or have to answer to people who wonder where they stand.. But again, south florida is a bit different than Georgia, and they'd probably catch more shit for it here.
But again, the majority of others i've known (including an entire fraternity of men) who display that flag, have been people that take issue with black people negatively.
in general that other parts of the country.
It is the person who is viewing, their problem, due to bias.
Whether that be with family members who hold very different views than theirs,
or personal embarrassment of how the South is viewed for it's history or their own generalized
prejudice.
The South gets so much more guff that really has absolutely no basis,
you know like a standing joke of sorts. Probably based in the history.
The South has so much pride based on this alone. Got to stay strong!
I love the strength of of the South and why the Rise Again is very important.
This thread and the nasty stuff said about Southerners is the crux to rise...
it is really rise above.
Rise above all the prejudice for the South not from the South. :fp:
I read that as collecting and pride as a hobby this being compared
not that PJ supports racism or slavery :? Where did you get that from?
Sounds like you changed the thought behind the analogy.
I too have been to a reenactment. It was indescribable really. I felt I was put back in time
and I liked that a lot. None of the people I met were doing it out of racism and I'm
not sure how people could connect those dots at all. That seems over the top to me.
Sure, for some it is collecting and pride, but the whole point is that the flag has been and will be associated with slavery and racism in some ways. And an entire race of people likely finds it offensive. Thats why the analogy is not very good at all. She might have been saying this analogy in regards to the few people she knows, but on a countrywide scale, comparing the two is just a bad analogy because of what it stands for for many people, and how people often perceive its symbolism.
it is not offensive to everyone.
If you look at the original post which I haven't since yesterday it has to do with why
would someone want to collect etc. It was an analogy just liken to those who collect
stuff period.
Yea all through the thread those posts had to do with the people known and loved
that are an exception to an arbitrary rule.
The personal nature of the posts made in defense of these people
from those who would make them ugly and remove their right to love and honor
with a flag that their ancestors carried seemed clear, maybe not.
I noticed some people got that part.
Kind of like...
I used to be afraid of cats. I was taught this growing up. Then I met one, fell in love,
and that forever changed me. Love removes hate, fear, and replaces it with trust
and admiration. Unfortunately not everyone falls in love with a cat.
But you simply cant disregard what it stands for. We're not just talking about it as a hobby. You can make it fit your agenda all day long, but if you look at how the entire population views Pearl Jam versus how the entire population views the confederate flag, you cant disregard the symbolism... especially if you're going to make an analogy while we're discussing the political ramifications of each. And we're not just talking about the people who have good intentions. I know there are some of course. We are talking about how the flag is perceived, and how it can be found offensive by an entire race. You cant simply leave that out of the discussion. I cant believe I have to explain why this analogy doesnt work. :?
Being afraid of cats? :? oh man, this just gets worse and worse...
But now that I think of it, Eddie did piss off a whole lotta southerners when he "impaled" the George Bush mask on the mic stand a few years back, so maybe the analogy could stand a bit.
Are you able to see how it was intended? Seems like you are refusing to. :?
I think you are trying to hard here. And now political ramifications really?
this gets better and better
It was about just those who collect not the band itself nor tied to a flag
but historical artifacts.
Are you thinking about any of the people here?
cause I have a feeling PJ would never be connected like you are attempting to do.
Kind of sad too that you would do so.
And no agenda here bud but maybe you do.
Cat thing over your head? Insert anything you learned to love that
changed how you felt about the same in general. Others will still hate
but you will love.
I completely understood where she was coming from. I explained all of this in my last post. Did you miss that I said I understand if she was talking about the very few, tiny part of the population that collect things like this? And that we're talking about the bigger picture, not just a few folks in Pandora's neighborhood? :fp:
Fine, if you want to just see it as regarding Pandora's neighbors, then there's no point in talking about the bigger picture with you. Im guessing you havent read the rest of the thread where we were discussing how it is perceived and the motivations, and history of the flag? Its ok, i'll give you a pass this time..
:? Im just saying the analogy doesnt work because of the bigger picture. I think you are twisting my words. Do you disagree that the confederate flag has been associated with hate groups, racism, and hate? Do you not see how comparing a flag that sometimes represents these things is a far, far stretch when comparing to collecting pearl jam posters? Yes, your agenda is to compare the flag to collecting PJ posters, WITHOUT respect to the symbolism and how it affects the entire country! You just conveniently want to leave that out.. Thats pretty clear to me.
ALL I ask is that if you make an analogy of flying the confederate flag to collecting pearl jam posters, that you acknowledge the fact that they both have clear and separate affects on people, and that they can be perceived as something completely different... and one is hurtful and one isnt.
No, it just gave me all I need. It showed me how seriously you take the history of slavery and racism and used analogies like collecting posters and hating cats and suddenly loving cats to the plight of an entire race. :? I understand what you wrote, its just ridiculous in these contexts, sorry.
I don't think you got the cat thing because love is never ridiculous,
well maybe to you.
I have read most of the thread and enjoyed some of it. I get the posts about love in the thread.
Did you? Or more focused on the hate maybe?
I don't remember reading anything about neighbors :?
and I don't think you understood the posts you are referring to at all.
I read what you said about the very few before. I totally disagree it is a very few
in our country but you seem set on not acknowledging love in more ways than one.
Don't assume people are not serious they might just be serious
in a different way than you.
And it seems analogies mean different things to different people
that's for sure we should be able to agree on that
I see you're having a tough time following along.. Where did I say "love" was ridiculous? I was saying the analogy is ridiculous and shows how seriously you take some of the symbolism behind the confederate flag.
Sure, im focused on hate -- Im focused on the people who hate and use the confederate flag to show that. I've seen it plenty in my time and I dont take it lightly because in most instances Ive come across, Ive been disgusted by the folks who use it. Obviously, more than others.
Pandora's neighbors.. I was being facetious, referring to her handful of friends that wave the flag and mean no harm by it. it was easier to type.
I dont care if you dont think I understand.. its obvious to me that you dont see the bigger picture of the analogy and why I said I disagreed with it. So tell me in your next post about how you didnt like spinach casserole when you were 12 years old and now you dont mind it and how that means that nobody meant any harm or disrespect to black people by flying a confederate flag. :?
Forget all this asinine analogy shit... Do you agree or not that the confederate flag is offensive to the majority of black people or not? do you understand why, when the flag was raised on certain capital buildings in recent years, that it was demanded taken down?