confederate flag: offensive or historical?

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

so if I am understanding this correctly

the consensus is that the Confederate flag is offensive for most, but it is ok to fly it if you have black friends?

here again another ALL :?
reread the thread please if you are really interested that is
and next time you see a flag don't assume the person is wrong or racist to fly it.
This pretty much the gist of my posts.

you should read it. I specifically used MOST, referring to the overwhelming amount of people in this thread and elsewhere that find it offensive.

I get the gist of your posts. I just don't agree.

quite frankly, living in Minnesota, I am pretty sure the Flag I drove by on my way home sunday hanging from someone's porch has NOTHING to do with southern pride and everything to do with the heavily Somali populated apartments across the street.

If it is about Southern Pride for the person flying it, I won't know about it because I won't associate with someone dumb enough to fly the Confederate Flag in any portion of the United States. I don't care what the original meaning of the flag was, it was changed when the KKK adopted it. Sorry for your luck if you live in the south and are simply proud of it...I think it is at the least in poor taste to fly it, and it is COMPLETELY insensitive of what it represents to many others.

A good example of this was GSP. A few months ago George St Pierre walked out into a cage to fight wearing a gi with a rising sun symbol on it. For many that is a symbol of oppression and genocide. Obviously GSP didn't wear it for that purpose, and when he was educated on what the symbol meant to many Asians throughout the world, he apologized. You see it is acceptable to fly it without knowing what it is to most people...but if you know what it means to most and you still fly it, a word comes to mind...it isn't pride, it is asshole.

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

so if I am understanding this correctly

the consensus is that the Confederate flag is offensive for most, but it is ok to fly it if you have black friends?

here again another ALL :?

pandora wrote:

reread the thread please if you are really interested that is
and next time you see a flag don't assume the person is wrong or racist to fly it.
This pretty much the gist of my posts.

My bad - edited my post because I did say I was going to ignore...

*but do look at words highlighted

fixed

riotgrl

So, I'll address some of the historical accuracy and inaccuracies that are being mentioned in this thread.

First, it is true that "only" about 35% of southerners owned slaves (and I can't find my chart that breaks this down better). Very few slaveholders owned more than 100 slaves which would be indicative of a plantation. Most slaveholders owned fewer than 10 slaves with most only owning 1-2. However, this accounting of slaveholding is misleading as many would have owned slaves IF they could have afforded to do so. It is inaccurate to claim that southerners were not fighting to protect their way of life. It might be true that not ALL were doing so just as it is inaccurate to state that ALL northeners were fighting for equality for blacks.

This article is an interesting point of view about this topic: http://deadconfederates.com/2011/04/28/ninety-eight-percent-of-texas-confederate-soldiers-never-owned-a-slave/

Here is a short quote from the article that is relevant.

"It’s true that in an extremely narrow sense, only a very small proportion of Confederate soldiers owned slaves in their own right. That, of course, is to be expected; soldiering is a young man’s game, and most young men, then and now, have little in the way of personal wealth. As a crude analogy, how many PFCs and corporals in Iraq and Afghanistan today own their own homes? Not many.

But even if it is narrowly true, it’s a deeply misleading statistic, cited religiously to distract from the much more relevant number, the proportion of soldiers who came from slaveholding households. The majority of the young men who marched off to war in the spring of 1861 were fully vested in the “peculiar institution.” Joseph T. Glatthaar, in his magnificent study of the force that eventually became the Army of Northern Virginia, lays out the evidence"

Thirty Bills Unpaid

pandora wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

...And the baiting has done what it was meant to do: take the thread off topic and dragged through the mud.

I will say again that my life experiences have brought me to a place
where I know the Confederate flags mean something beautiful to some people.
This I embrace and enjoy and is very much on topic. I am blessed to know black and white people
who have love, forgiveness and kindness in their hearts that brings them to this place also.

That is not baiting though I guess your life experiences tell you that it is.
Is this suspiciousness that comes with that from your life experiences?
Is this mean spiritedness and vindictiveness also a result of life experiences?
Our life experiences is where we learn our opinions and how to interact with others.

You have agreed to ignore time and again...
is it these emotions and motives that won't allow you too? I would better like to undersatnd
why this continues.

I'm late, but I cannot resist: I'll try to help here.

Pandora... ignoring is the wise thing to do, but sometimes one just can't. For example, a squeaky hinge that makes an awful noise can only be ignored so much. Eventually, one has to apply some grease to it so the damn thing stops grating on your nerves.

For the record, your suggestion that the Confederate flag means something beautiful is way off base. If your grandparents were members of the Ku Klux Klan... would you frame and hang pictures of them dressed in their awesome suits doing their thing? I could maybe understand still loving them- despite their hideous past- but most here are of the opinion that such a past should stay buried in the past and scorned. That is, unless of course, one currently connects with such a past in some capacity.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

so if I am understanding this correctly

the consensus is that the Confederate flag is offensive for most, but it is ok to fly it if you have black friends?

here again another ALL :?
reread the thread please if you are really interested that is
and next time you see a flag don't assume the person is wrong or racist to fly it.
This pretty much the gist of my posts.

you should read it. I specifically used MOST, referring to the overwhelming amount of people in this thread and elsewhere that find it offensive.

I get the gist of your posts. I just don't agree.

quite frankly, living in Minnesota, I am pretty sure the Flag I drove by on my way home sunday hanging from someone's porch has NOTHING to do with southern pride and everything to do with the heavily Somali populated apartments across the street.

If it is about Southern Pride for the person flying it, I won't know about it because I won't associate with someone dumb enough to fly the Confederate Flag in any portion of the United States. I don't care what the original meaning of the flag was, it was changed when the KKK adopted it. Sorry for your luck if you live in the south and are simply proud of it...I think it is at the least in poor taste to fly it, and it is COMPLETELY insensitive of what it represents to many others.

A good example of this was GSP. A few months ago George St Pierre walked out into a cage to fight wearing a gi with a rising sun symbol on it. For many that is a symbol of oppression and genocide. Obviously GSP didn't wear it for that purpose, and when he was educated on what the symbol meant to many Asians throughout the world, he apologized. You see it is acceptable to fly it without knowing what it is to most people...but if you know what it means to most and you still fly it, a word comes to mind...it isn't pride, it is asshole.

I can see why you feel as you do... living in Minnesota

pandora

chadwick wrote:

pandora wrote:

reread friend ... their is much hate in this thread

People believe the flag represents hate when it does not to ALL.

then why isn't the flag waving in the beautiful georgia wind (and on national days of mourning at half mast) at your home & place of business?

I know you are not this dense Chadwick ... just fooling around again :?

it does not because it is not unoffensive to ALL. Just as it is not offensive to ALL.

redrock

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

My bad - edited my post because I did say I was going to ignore...

*but do look at words highlighted

fixed

Pandora - I would rather you do not mess with my posts and my quoting. My words are mine - do not alter what I am writing to suit your needs/pur poses. You may find this amusing, but I don't. Thank you.

JonnyPistachio

mikepegg44 wrote:

If it is about Southern Pride for the person flying it, I won't know about it because I won't associate with someone dumb enough to fly the Confederate Flag in any portion of the United States. I don't care what the original meaning of the flag was, it was changed when the KKK adopted it. Sorry for your luck if you live in the south and are simply proud of it...I think it is at the least in poor taste to fly it, and it is COMPLETELY insensitive of what it represents to many others.

A good example of this was GSP. A few months ago George St Pierre walked out into a cage to fight wearing a gi with a rising sun symbol on it. For many that is a symbol of oppression and genocide. Obviously GSP didn't wear it for that purpose, and when he was educated on what the symbol meant to many Asians throughout the world, he apologized. You see it is acceptable to fly it without knowing what it is to most people...but if you know what it means to most and you still fly it, a word comes to mind...it isn't pride, it is asshole.

exactly exactly, exactly..

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I havent seen too many people say they hate people who display the confederate flag. I have seen a lot of people who have had bad personal experiences with people who did display the flag with a negative purpose. My whole point, 37 bazillion pages ago, Pandora, was that even the people who you talk about (your friends) who display this flag with ZERO negative political and racial motivations, are VERY much the minority. They do exist, sure, but its the minority, and pretty uncommon. So, like myself and most of the others in this thread -- when every single instance you've come across in your life regarding that flag is a terrible, racist act, it shouldnt be a surprise that people associate it with hate/bigotry, etc and dislike it... and again, its offensive to an ENTIRE RACE. If I knew doing something was offensive to ANY race in its entirety because it represented enslaving their people, I would discontinue it, and frankly, I wouldnt tend to associate myself with people with those same motivations. You see, its ok to not like this kind of behavior.., which is the behavior of MANY, if not MOST, who display this flag.

The Southerners long ago who did not own slaves nor support slavery. They did not support
succession and fought and died for the South. Their ancestors remember and honor them.
What would be offensive is if they couldn't.
What is offensive is people who assume hate when it is not there.

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

My bad - edited my post because I did say I was going to ignore...

*but do look at words highlighted

fixed

Pandora - I would rather you do not mess with my posts and my quoting. My words are mine - do not alter what I am writing to suit your needs/pur poses. You may find this amusing, but I don't. Thank you.

I would appreciate in the future to be quoted in full... my full thought not dissected to fit your agenda.

pandora

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

pandora wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

...And the baiting has done what it was meant to do: take the thread off topic and dragged through the mud.

I will say again that my life experiences have brought me to a place
where I know the Confederate flags mean something beautiful to some people.
This I embrace and enjoy and is very much on topic. I am blessed to know black and white people
who have love, forgiveness and kindness in their hearts that brings them to this place also.

That is not baiting though I guess your life experiences tell you that it is.
Is this suspiciousness that comes with that from your life experiences?
Is this mean spiritedness and vindictiveness also a result of life experiences?
Our life experiences is where we learn our opinions and how to interact with others.

You have agreed to ignore time and again...
is it these emotions and motives that won't allow you too? I would better like to undersatnd
why this continues.

I'm late, but I cannot resist: I'll try to help here.

Pandora... ignoring is the wise thing to do, but sometimes one just can't. For example, a squeaky hinge that makes an awful noise can only be ignored so much. Eventually, one has to apply some grease to it so the damn thing stops grating on your nerves.

For the record, your suggestion that the Confederate flag means something beautiful is way off base. If your grandparents were members of the Ku Klux Klan... would you frame and hang pictures of them dressed in their awesome suits doing their thing? I could maybe understand still loving them- despite their hideous past- but most here are of the opinion that such a past should stay buried in the past and scorned. That is, unless of course, one currently connects with such a past in some capacity.

The flag is beautiful to the Southerners honoring their dead ancestors. Many in the South
did not own slaves nor support slavery. The did not want to succeed from the Union,
yet they fought suffered and died out of loyalty and Southern pride.
They did not hate then and do not now.
This the beauty, remembering and honoring those souls.
The beauty is also in those who have forgiven, embraced and love their fellow man.

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I havent seen too many people say they hate people who display the confederate flag. I have seen a lot of people who have had bad personal experiences with people who did display the flag with a negative purpose. My whole point, 37 bazillion pages ago, Pandora, was that even the people who you talk about (your friends) who display this flag with ZERO negative political and racial motivations, are VERY much the minority. They do exist, sure, but its the minority, and pretty uncommon. So, like myself and most of the others in this thread -- when every single instance you've come across in your life regarding that flag is a terrible, racist act, it shouldnt be a surprise that people associate it with hate/bigotry, etc and dislike it... and again, its offensive to an ENTIRE RACE. If I knew doing something was offensive to ANY race in its entirety because it represented enslaving their people, I would discontinue it, and frankly, I wouldnt tend to associate myself with people with those same motivations. You see, its ok to not like this kind of behavior.., which is the behavior of MANY, if not MOST, who display this flag.

The Southerners long ago who did not own slaves nor support slavery. They did not support
succession and fought and died for the South. Their ancestors remember and honor them.
What would be offensive is if they couldn't.
What is offensive is people who assume hate when it is not there.

Sure, sure... are you forgetting that the KKK adopted the flag too? Bottom line is, the majority of folks see it as offensive, so whoever wants to, they can fly the flag all day long, as long as they are prepared to face the consequences. Personally, if I wanted to show my pride, I'd just find another way, be smart about it, rather than chance offending a lot of people, but thats just me.

and by the way, I dont assume hate when I see it, but I do go off the majority of experiences I've had in the past. I usually start by rolling my eyes and feeling sorry for them for feeling the need to make a statement with such a flag... then I usually learn they are making a statement that I dont agree with. I've never been wrong with the people i've personally met.. but again, those are just my experiences. I usually dislike them once i've learned they hate and use the flag to demonstrate that hate.

Its more often than you think, Im guessing.

pandora

I enjoyed reading this historian ...

http://www.civilwar.org/education/histo ... lding.html

pandora

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I havent seen too many people say they hate people who display the confederate flag. I have seen a lot of people who have had bad personal experiences with people who did display the flag with a negative purpose. My whole point, 37 bazillion pages ago, Pandora, was that even the people who you talk about (your friends) who display this flag with ZERO negative political and racial motivations, are VERY much the minority. They do exist, sure, but its the minority, and pretty uncommon. So, like myself and most of the others in this thread -- when every single instance you've come across in your life regarding that flag is a terrible, racist act, it shouldnt be a surprise that people associate it with hate/bigotry, etc and dislike it... and again, its offensive to an ENTIRE RACE. If I knew doing something was offensive to ANY race in its entirety because it represented enslaving their people, I would discontinue it, and frankly, I wouldnt tend to associate myself with people with those same motivations. You see, its ok to not like this kind of behavior.., which is the behavior of MANY, if not MOST, who display this flag.

The Southerners long ago who did not own slaves nor support slavery. They did not support
succession and fought and died for the South. Their ancestors remember and honor them.
What would be offensive is if they couldn't.
What is offensive is people who assume hate when it is not there.

Sure, sure... are you forgetting that the KKK adopted the flag too? Bottom line is, the majority of folks see it as offensive, so whoever wants to, they can fly the flag all day long, as long as they are prepared to face the consequences. Personally, if I wanted to show my pride, I'd just find another way, be smart about it, rather than chance offending a lot of people, but thats just me.

and by the way, I dont assume hate when I see it, but I do go off the majority of experiences I've had in the past. I usually start by rolling my eyes and feeling sorry for them for feeling the need to make a statement with such a flag... then I usually learn they are making a statement that I dont agree with. I've never been wrong with the people i've personally met.. but again, those are just my experiences. I usually dislike them once i've learned they hate and use the flag to demonstrate that hate.

Its more often than you think, Im guessing.

I'm glad I have my experiences to balance all the hate.

Kat

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

My bad - edited my post because I did say I was going to ignore...

*but do look at words highlighted

fixed

Pandora - I would rather you do not mess with my posts and my quoting. My words are mine - do not alter what I am writing to suit your needs/pur poses. You may find this amusing, but I don't. Thank you.

It is against the rules here to alter a quote. Just comment about what someone said when you quote and NEVER change their words. I've seen it on other forums and it's not funny. Thank you.

JonnyPistachio

pandora wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

The Southerners long ago who did not own slaves nor support slavery. They did not support
succession and fought and died for the South. Their ancestors remember and honor them.
What would be offensive is if they couldn't.
What is offensive is people who assume hate when it is not there.

Sure, sure... are you forgetting that the KKK adopted the flag too? Bottom line is, the majority of folks see it as offensive, so whoever wants to, they can fly the flag all day long, as long as they are prepared to face the consequences. Personally, if I wanted to show my pride, I'd just find another way, be smart about it, rather than chance offending a lot of people, but thats just me.

and by the way, I dont assume hate when I see it, but I do go off the majority of experiences I've had in the past. I usually start by rolling my eyes and feeling sorry for them for feeling the need to make a statement with such a flag... then I usually learn they are making a statement that I dont agree with. I've never been wrong with the people i've personally met.. but again, those are just my experiences. I usually dislike them once i've learned they hate and use the flag to demonstrate that hate.

Its more often than you think, Im guessing.

I'm glad I have my experiences to balance all the hate.

Im glad you do too. It may balance it for you.. but not the rest of the USA. Its really too bad that so many hate groups adopted the flag really. or maybe its too bad something else with less negative implications hasnt come along to take its place, to represent pride for ones ancestry. No matter what, its a controversial symbol.. unfortunately for the few who do like it for harmless reasons.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

I can see why you feel as you do... living in Minnesota

I would feel that way living anywhere...

Don't you think it is the least bit of bad taste if you are using the flag anywhere in public view that isn't a civil war reenactment?

Semiotics is an interesting area of study, but the gist of it is that symbols have no natural meaning. They get their meaning from social construction...So to fly the flag as an act of southern pride is strange to me, considering that the flag itself has come to represent a time that as a southerner I would think you aren't proud of...

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

I can see why you feel as you do... living in Minnesota

I would feel that way living anywhere...

Don't you think it is the least bit of bad taste if you are using the flag anywhere in public view that isn't a civil war reenactment?

Semiotics is an interesting area of study, but the gist of it is that symbols have no natural meaning. They get their meaning from social construction...So to fly the flag as an act of southern pride is strange to me, considering that the flag itself has come to represent a time that as a southerner I would think you aren't proud of...

I think of this often spending my first 35 years in WI. Living there very different than here.
Very different life experiences and people I know and love.
To know Southern pride is to love Southern pride and I understand how it would
be strange to you.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

chadwick wrote:

pandora wrote:

And for one hater how many lovers?

Goes without saying hate is disgusting. All hate. Some haters can not see they hate.
Do you know who you are?

17 years ago when I was 40 I made a pact with God to try not to judge others,
to expect the best of them.
I figure if I can live half my life trying that I will reap rewards.
And I have!

I have been blessed to know the most wonderful people, that it appears
that some might judge, generalize and lump with haters.
Using the word ALL regularly.
I have been blessed to know black people who are living their life with the same pledge.
A kinship we have in God's love and goal.

It saddens the remarks that I am baiting when I speak the truth.
It saddens to think others are so quick to judge. ALL black people
do not find the flag offensive or those displaying as being antagonistic.
I know this because I know some, I speak to them and know their hearts.
Because we are together in this kinship and goal for all of us, for God.
Forgiveness divine. My wish those judging could learn this to live happier lives.

It saddens that there are some people whose life experiences are stifled
for the consistent judging and negativity that is eating away their hearts.
The fortunate thing I guess is they can not recognize what is happening to them.

Give people a try, no need to be so suspicious, to assume the worst.
And no I'm not talking about hate groups as in the link...
I'm talking about the people who are being judged for honoring the flag
and their ancestry. The next time you see the flag don't be so quick to judge.

We know not all Southerners were slave owners nor supported slavery.
Many were not in favor of succession but they fought. They suffered and they died
for the South. Some people recognize and remember this today and that is a good thing.
It would be nice if all could and give people the benefit of the doubt.

who does it sadden, who's sad? you've stated "it saddens." who are you talking about?


why not fly the confederate flag & wear the belt buckle? you still have not met the challenge asked of you yesterday have you? why isn't your gifted rebel flag waving high from atop your front porch and family business?

You should reread its quite explanatory but here goes...

Personally it saddens me that I am told I am baiting when I am sharing life experiences,
it also saddens me that others are so quick to judge.
I believe it saddens most people to see those who are hating
and judging. Who wants hate?

Don't you want less hate Chadwick? Why do you perpetrate it then?

Personally, I just don't believe you. I do not believe that you have a bunch of black friends who are fine and dandy with white people flying the confederate flag. The only way i'd believe that is if you showed me their commitment papers from the local mental hospital.

And don't say that others are quick to judge. These judgments seem anything but quick. I am not sure how you can continue to ignore all of the comparisons to the swastika. There is no doubt that the parallel is uncanny, but I don't think you've acknowledged that obvious fact, or justified your love for a similar racist and hateful symbol that can be so clearly compared to the Nazi flag...... you know, one of these days, I really hope you are capable of just backing down and admitting that maybe you're wrong. I think you really should try and reconsider your position about the confederate flag. It is very clear that it is offensive and considered a symbol of racism, yet you continue to defend it. WHY??? That isn't a kind and open-minded position. That is a close minded and callous position. So please stop giving yourself credit.

It seems utterly bizarre to me that someone who keeps preaching about love and all that shit you go on about wouldn't have the humility to admit she's wrong. I don't understand how can in conscience keep on fighting in favor of something that is hurtful and offensive to so many, for a very clear reason. You seem to say that your priorities are about acceptance and peace.... but you give a big ol FUCK YOU to everyone at the same time. You can't have it both ways! Even if you knew a black person dumb enough to be cool with this symbol, what about the other 99% who see it as a symbol of their suffering, of the racism committed against them for centuries until today? You really don't seem to give a crap about them at all. Your priorities are fucked up big time IMHO, all for the sake of a racist symbol that is honoured by white racist trash... oh, and of course by the people who like to participate in civil war reenactments. :roll:

pandora

Kat wrote:

redrock wrote:

redrock wrote:

My bad - edited my post because I did say I was going to ignore...

*but do look at words highlighted

Pandora - I would rather you do not mess with my posts and my quoting. My words are mine - do not alter what I am writing to suit your needs/pur poses. You may find this amusing, but I don't. Thank you.

It is against the rules here to alter a quote. Just comment about what someone said when you quote and NEVER change their words. I've seen it on other forums and it's not funny. Thank you.

I did not mess with your words redrock...
I only added the rest of my quote Just to clarify how that went down, friend.

I would never change someone's words only added mine that you must have forgotten :?
was that on purpose?