You impart your knowledge, share your passion, give them the tools to discover themselves and the world, guide them, give them advice when needed. There comes a time when they make their own decisions as to where their path takes them - then you are in a support role. This time comes earlier than thought, sometimes it's a gradual process, sometimes it can be a sudden 'flash'. Parents need to respect that and let go. My daughter is not a 'mini-me'. She is an individual in her own right and has been since the day she was born.
You will see yourself in her as your child ages. I'm sure you have seen your own mother in you...
good and bad. There is no denying it is how humans learn.
Parents an extremely strong influence why being the best role model we can be
is so important. All humans need autonomy and will demand that in their own time ...
it's a natural thing.
We can only hope they do not choose to do things that harm themselves or their future.
This young person feels religion has been forced but they might feel entirely different
in the third decade of life. When they themselves perhaps are parenting.
It all starts to make sense then why our parents made the choices they did.
I stand by my statement and your response to it shows you don't really understand what I was saying.
I didn't say that the child HAS to grow up to be exactly what the parents want or try to dictate.
What I'm saying is that it's a parents job to PARENT them and make them do things that they value and try to raise them to the best of their ability.
my job as a parent is to expose my daughters to as much as I can so they can make well rounded decisions based on their likes/dislikes/passions/etc. It is NOT my job to tell them they have to conform to something I value. I value music. I will expose them to that. I have. I will NEVER force them to do something they don't value themselves. I respect them as individuals to choose what they want to do.
But that's YOUR opinion of how to raise children and doesn't mean it's the only way or the right way.
well, I SUPPOSE you COULD argue that it's better or more right to raise them to believe for years that something you believe in is historical fact, taking advantage of the fact that they are young and impressionable and will believer everything their parent tells them, only to find out later that it's possible that it's not really true, that what you taught wasn't in fact historically factual, it's just a bunch of stories we brainwashed you with while you were too young to refute it.
You COULD argue that. but why the fuck WOULD you?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
a question for the religious: why insist on teaching kids about religion from such a young age? why not wait until they are able to form their own opinions and be able to understand what it is they are being told? we don't teach politics in school until way later on in life, so why religion?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I thought about this a lot after watching Life of Pi.
--Spoiler--
Pi, at a young age, exposes himself to many religions and refuses to only take ONE.
Why should kids simply take upon the religion described to them by their parents? How is that one right?
well, I SUPPOSE you COULD argue that it's better or more right to raise them to believe for years that something you believe in is historical fact, taking advantage of the fact that they are young and impressionable and will believer everything their parent tells them, only to find out later that it's possible that it's not really true, that what you taught wasn't in fact historically factual, it's just a bunch of stories we brainwashed you with while you were too young to refute it.
You COULD argue that. but why the fuck WOULD you?
You're taking what I said too literally to only apply to religion. I'm saying that - in general - it's a parents job to raise their children to the best of their ability. If they believe that means essentially forcing them to go to church services until they move out, then so be it. Parents have to force a lot of things on children in order to try and shape their development.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not being religious but being a believer and admiring those who are dedicated to religion
I would say it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
My daughter at 27 has begun going to a progressive Christian church. She is loving it.
The sermons are addressing so much that is helping her personally. Forgiveness, understanding,
she comes and shares them with me often after church as it is close to our family home.
I see the peace it is bringing to her life. The strength that keeps her going amid struggles.
An ease in anxiety and worry.
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
I often wonder with those who were blessed with religion from young on and then left the church
what and where is the disappointment?
Is it taking the stories learned and never allowing them
to be processed into an adult mind and life?
Did they have a counter adult or even both parents who either disliked church
or would not attend with the children in the family setting up a divided home and message?
Finally it must be the biggest factor, they could never believe when all the others around them
were perceived to believe. But some they pray, they attend, they support
and pass it on even though they may not be 100% convinced there is a God.
God doesn't care about that and I don't think those people do either.
well, I SUPPOSE you COULD argue that it's better or more right to raise them to believe for years that something you believe in is historical fact, taking advantage of the fact that they are young and impressionable and will believer everything their parent tells them, only to find out later that it's possible that it's not really true, that what you taught wasn't in fact historically factual, it's just a bunch of stories we brainwashed you with while you were too young to refute it.
You COULD argue that. but why the fuck WOULD you?
You're taking what I said too literally to only apply to religion. I'm saying that - in general - it's a parents job to raise their children to the best of their ability. If they believe that means essentially forcing them to go to church services until they move out, then so be it. Parents have to force a lot of things on children in order to try and shape their development.
yes, they do, but forcing religion on a child serves absolutely no purpose, as education does. you can teach basic human decency and morals without god.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Not being religious but being a believer and admiring those who are dedicated to religion
I would say it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
My daughter at 27 has begun going to a progressive Christian church. She is loving it.
The sermons are addressing so much that is helping her personally. Forgiveness, understanding,
she comes and shares them with me often after church as it is close to our family home.
I see the peace it is bringing to her life. The strength that keeps her going amid struggles.
An ease in anxiety and worry.
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
I often wonder with those who were blessed with religion from young on and then left the church
what and where is the disappointment?
Is it taking the stories learned and never allowing them
to be processed into an adult mind and life?
Did they have a counter adult or even both parents who either disliked church
or would not attend with the children in the family setting up a divided home and message?
Finally it must be the biggest factor, they could never believe when all the others around them
were perceived to believe. But some they pray, they attend, they support
and pass it on even though they may not be 100% convinced there is a God.
God doesn't care about that and I don't think those people do either.
my brother would disagree with your last statement. he believes anyone who doesn't believe in god and also practice their religion like jesus tells them to, are going to hell.
to answer your question, my family is/was members of the United Church. it was always very positive, except of course I didn't understand why I had to waste my sunday morning dressing up when my friends got to go out and play. there was nothing specific that drove me and my sister and my dad from the church/religion/belief in god. there was nothing nasty going on at the church. everyone was very nice. I had a very positive upbringing with good parents (who are still happily married since 1969).
I just didn't see the point, even when I still believed in god. why bother sitting there and listening to the same damn message every fucking sunday that I can figure out on my own. every christian who is being honest will tell you church is boring as fuck. I mean, really, I had this person telling me lessons about life that were basic human decency stories. or the fairy tales that no one believes about jesus helping a deaf man hear and all that shit. they never said anything profound or mind-blowing that made me want to "stay tuned" by any stretch of the imagination.
even as a kid, I never bought any of that stuff.
and if you saw what I saw in my teenage nephew, you'd be as scared as I was at how fucking brainwashed he seemed. it was scarey.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward in full.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And if you want further reason to tell your parents to fuck off regarding church: The Truth Which Sets Free - book online
a pretty comprehensive and compelling case that the word "kyriakon" (church) was inserted in to bible translations replacing the original term "ekklesia" (the elect) ... showing that Jesus never once referred to a physical church, but ALWAYS to AN ELECT GROUP of disciples. Those who FOLLOWED HIS WORD. (not merely those that went to "church" to hear it)
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
well, I SUPPOSE you COULD argue that it's better or more right to raise them to believe for years that something you believe in is historical fact, taking advantage of the fact that they are young and impressionable and will believer everything their parent tells them, only to find out later that it's possible that it's not really true, that what you taught wasn't in fact historically factual, it's just a bunch of stories we brainwashed you with while you were too young to refute it.
You COULD argue that. but why the fuck WOULD you?
You're taking what I said too literally to only apply to religion. I'm saying that - in general - it's a parents job to raise their children to the best of their ability. If they believe that means essentially forcing them to go to church services until they move out, then so be it. Parents have to force a lot of things on children in order to try and shape their development.
yes, they do, but forcing religion on a child serves absolutely no purpose, as education does. you can teach basic human decency and morals without god.
I totally agree that you can teach morals and decency without God.
I don't agree that "forcing" (such a harsh word) religion on a child can and does serve at least some purpose.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not being religious but being a believer and admiring those who are dedicated to religion
I would say it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
My daughter at 27 has begun going to a progressive Christian church. She is loving it.
The sermons are addressing so much that is helping her personally. Forgiveness, understanding,
she comes and shares them with me often after church as it is close to our family home.
I see the peace it is bringing to her life. The strength that keeps her going amid struggles.
An ease in anxiety and worry.
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
I often wonder with those who were blessed with religion from young on and then left the church
what and where is the disappointment?
Is it taking the stories learned and never allowing them
to be processed into an adult mind and life?
Did they have a counter adult or even both parents who either disliked church
or would not attend with the children in the family setting up a divided home and message?
Finally it must be the biggest factor, they could never believe when all the others around them
were perceived to believe. But some they pray, they attend, they support
and pass it on even though they may not be 100% convinced there is a God.
God doesn't care about that and I don't think those people do either.
my brother would disagree with your last statement. he believes anyone who doesn't believe in god and also practice their religion like jesus tells them to, are going to hell.
to answer your question, my family is/was members of the United Church. it was always very positive, except of course I didn't understand why I had to waste my sunday morning dressing up when my friends got to go out and play. there was nothing specific that drove me and my sister and my dad from the church/religion/belief in god. there was nothing nasty going on at the church. everyone was very nice. I had a very positive upbringing with good parents (who are still happily married since 1969).
I just didn't see the point, even when I still believed in god. why bother sitting there and listening to the same damn message every fucking sunday that I can figure out on my own. every christian who is being honest will tell you church is boring as fuck. I mean, really, I had this person telling me lessons about life that were basic human decency stories. or the fairy tales that no one believes about jesus helping a deaf man hear and all that shit. they never said anything profound or mind-blowing that made me want to "stay tuned" by any stretch of the imagination.
even as a kid, I never bought any of that stuff.
and if you saw what I saw in my teenage nephew, you'd be as scared as I was at how fucking brainwashed he seemed. it was scarey.
I enjoy going to church. I go to one of those large, progressive, non-denominational Christian churches. The praise band is awesome and they typically throw in a non-religious song almost every week. It's basically like going to a rock concert.
They show videos and have a lot of humorous clips, skits and jokes. I have a pretty good time there and the most basic 2 messages that are ever portrayed are forgiveness and loving all people. As a church, we do a ton of charity work and help lots and lots of people. Every week, we find one family in need and give them $10K to help them in their situation. We even have a ministry that helps women in the exotic dancing and porn industry.
Whether you believe in God or not, surrounding yourself in a positive atmosphere isn't such a bad thing.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not being religious but being a believer and admiring those who are dedicated to religion
I would say it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
My daughter at 27 has begun going to a progressive Christian church. She is loving it.
The sermons are addressing so much that is helping her personally. Forgiveness, understanding,
she comes and shares them with me often after church as it is close to our family home.
I see the peace it is bringing to her life. The strength that keeps her going amid struggles.
An ease in anxiety and worry.
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
I often wonder with those who were blessed with religion from young on and then left the church
what and where is the disappointment?
Is it taking the stories learned and never allowing them
to be processed into an adult mind and life?
Did they have a counter adult or even both parents who either disliked church
or would not attend with the children in the family setting up a divided home and message?
Finally it must be the biggest factor, they could never believe when all the others around them
were perceived to believe. But some they pray, they attend, they support
and pass it on even though they may not be 100% convinced there is a God.
God doesn't care about that and I don't think those people do either.
my brother would disagree with your last statement. he believes anyone who doesn't believe in god and also practice their religion like jesus tells them to, are going to hell.
to answer your question, my family is/was members of the United Church. it was always very positive, except of course I didn't understand why I had to waste my sunday morning dressing up when my friends got to go out and play. there was nothing specific that drove me and my sister and my dad from the church/religion/belief in god. there was nothing nasty going on at the church. everyone was very nice. I had a very positive upbringing with good parents (who are still happily married since 1969).
I just didn't see the point, even when I still believed in god. why bother sitting there and listening to the same damn message every fucking sunday that I can figure out on my own. every christian who is being honest will tell you church is boring as fuck. I mean, really, I had this person telling me lessons about life that were basic human decency stories. or the fairy tales that no one believes about jesus helping a deaf man hear and all that shit. they never said anything profound or mind-blowing that made me want to "stay tuned" by any stretch of the imagination.
even as a kid, I never bought any of that stuff.
and if you saw what I saw in my teenage nephew, you'd be as scared as I was at how fucking brainwashed he seemed. it was scarey.
It seems your mother and your brother connected with the message.
I'm glad they have each other in their faith.
Do you think having to go to church taught you to be a more disciplined adult?
If I saw your nephew I would see the young man very differently than you do.
I am not afraid of God, religion or the very faithful. You see this as negative, I can not.
As brainwashing, I will not.
The only negative I saw was one brother pitted against the other.
I'm sure your young adult in your family sees the same. He sees you wanting him to denounce
what you have. This boy's faith is not a competition between brothers.
We don't have to share the same beliefs. You are preaching tolerance, show some.
Unconditional love will win every time. You can be a great example role model to him still.
For him always...forever. He has a lot of learning to do.
I enjoy going to church. I go to one of those large, progressive, non-denominational Christian churches. The praise band is awesome and they typically throw in a non-religious song almost every week. It's basically like going to a rock concert.
They show videos and have a lot of humorous clips, skits and jokes. I have a pretty good time there and the most basic 2 messages that are ever portrayed are forgiveness and loving all people. As a church, we do a ton of charity work and help lots and lots of people. Every week, we find one family in need and give them $10K to help them in their situation. We even have a ministry that helps women in the exotic dancing and porn industry.
Whether you believe in God or not, surrounding yourself in a positive atmosphere isn't such a bad thing.
This is like the church my daughter found. It took some looking but she is a happy soul now.
Your church sounds awesome!
I had the opposite situation. I came home from a friends house once when I was little with a religious book. They had taken me to a church function and I'd had no idea. I just thought it was some wierd book. When my Mum got home, she got reeeally pissed off and threw it off the balcony. I don't feel like I missed out on anything though.
I think what folks have been saying, just ride it out until you are old enough to do what you want. Just make sure you don't regret it.
“ "Thank you Palestrina. It’s a wonderful evening, it’s great to be here and I wanna dedicate you a super sexy song." " (last words of Mark Sandman of Morphine)
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They show videos and have a lot of humorous clips, skits and jokes. I have a pretty good time there and the most basic 2 messages that are ever portrayed are forgiveness and loving all people. As a church, we do a ton of charity work and help lots and lots of people. Every week, we find one family in need and give them $10K to help them in their situation. We even have a ministry that helps women in the exotic dancing and porn industry.
you can teach basic human decency and morals without god.
Like know1, I agree with this (and by the way, we can substitute "temple" or any other place of worship/observance for "church").
That said, the tenets of Judaism WERE part of my moral foundation - not all of them but certainly remain in a solid place within my character and how I live my life, treat others...and not necessarily from the religion itself (though I'll admit the rituals - some of which did and didn't make sense to me when I inquired about them - and prayers (their meaning) - and seeing my father live by the rules he asked [note: asked] us to abide by did play a part).
I was fortunate enough, while not personally embracing the religion itself when I got into my teens, to know that the foundation laid for me was a strong and honest one, and I still live by that basic guide...as I believe most people do, whether or not religion had a hand in it.
know1 - it's fantastic that you have found a church you enjoy attending and that you find it a positive experience. Unfortunately, for the young man from the original post, the church does not bring him anything positive - on the contrary. I understand that his parents,as part of their understanding of parenting, 'shared' their beliefs and how to express those beliefs with him and he accepted that. Now that he is a young adult, all he is asking is that his parents accept his beliefs without being 'demonised' for them. Acceptance/tolerance goes both ways.
It seems your mother and your brother connected with the message.
I'm glad they have each other in their faith.
Do you think having to go to church taught you to be a more disciplined adult?
If I saw your nephew I would see the young man very differently than you do.
I am not afraid of God, religion or the very faithful. You see this as negative, I can not.
As brainwashing, I will not.
The only negative I saw was one brother pitted against the other.
I'm sure your young adult in your family sees the same. He sees you wanting him to denounce
what you have. This boy's faith is not a competition between brothers.
We don't have to share the same beliefs. You are preaching tolerance, show some.
Unconditional love will win every time. You can be a great example role model to him still.
For him always...forever. He has a lot of learning to do.
it's funny that you assume my mother and brother are connected in their faith. that couldn't be further from the truth. my mother herself has told him to stuff it with all his preaching (for example, whenever she'd say "oh my god", he'd say in a snarky way "mine too!"). She is very private in her beliefs and has told him to keep his to himself as well.
I'm not "pitted" against my brother. we just don't have the same beliefs.
OUR FAMILY IS INTENSELY CLOSE. IT BECAME CLOSER WHEN WE TOLD THE BELIEVERS TO KEEP THEIR BULLSHIT TO THEMSELVES. EVEN MY BROTHER WOULD AGREE THAT OUR FAMILY IS BETTER OFF FOR HIM AND HIS WIFE KEEPING THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.
no, you don't know what you'd think if you saw my nephew. you have no idea what it was like. I have more tolerance than you care to see, and that's your problem. I just don't have tolerance for assholes who smirk and tell me I'm going to hell because I don't do/believe what they do.
I am a great role model for my nephew. I don't need to go to church or believe in god to show him that. My sister's husband believes in god and is a fucking drunk loser who is a horrible role model. if god was a such a good role model, why would my brother be teaching his son that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured through the love the god? it's hate speech is what it is.
why the hell would going to church have any effect on how disciplined an adult a person is?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
again you choose to read what you want and assume even more. I only call it brainwashing when it involves children. once again, no one will answer the question why we "teach" religion to kids when they could easily be taught this when they are older and able to understand the concepts. the only reason it's taught as a young age is because if you told them this at an age of being able to think critically, they'd call you insane.
I am not afraid of god any more than I'm afraid of the loch ness monster.although, I do think it's more believable to acknowledge the existence of the latter.
my nephew doesn't view me as me wanting him to denounce anything. I simply want him to think for himself, which he hasn't done yet. which can't really be expected of him at this age anyway.
it's very telling that I'm not out to "bring him to the dark side" since up until a few months ago, he assumed our whole family believed the same as he and his parents do. yeah, that's how active we are against the church.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I enjoy going to church. I go to one of those large, progressive, non-denominational Christian churches. The praise band is awesome and they typically throw in a non-religious song almost every week. It's basically like going to a rock concert.
They show videos and have a lot of humorous clips, skits and jokes. I have a pretty good time there and the most basic 2 messages that are ever portrayed are forgiveness and loving all people. As a church, we do a ton of charity work and help lots and lots of people. Every week, we find one family in need and give them $10K to help them in their situation. We even have a ministry that helps women in the exotic dancing and porn industry.
Whether you believe in God or not, surrounding yourself in a positive atmosphere isn't such a bad thing.
of course there's nothing wrong with it. I never said there was. what you described does sound like a lot of fun. any adult is free to worship in any manner in any place they wish. if it helps you in your travels then more power to you. I just have an issue with it being forced on children. it's brainwashing, whether you want to believe that or not. that is the basis of this thread, and all I'm talking about.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It seems your mother and your brother connected with the message.
I'm glad they have each other in their faith.
Do you think having to go to church taught you to be a more disciplined adult?
If I saw your nephew I would see the young man very differently than you do.
I am not afraid of God, religion or the very faithful. You see this as negative, I can not.
As brainwashing, I will not.
The only negative I saw was one brother pitted against the other.
I'm sure your young adult in your family sees the same. He sees you wanting him to denounce
what you have. This boy's faith is not a competition between brothers.
We don't have to share the same beliefs. You are preaching tolerance, show some.
Unconditional love will win every time. You can be a great example role model to him still.
For him always...forever. He has a lot of learning to do.
it's funny that you assume my mother and brother are connected in their faith. that couldn't be further from the truth. my mother herself has told him to stuff it with all his preaching (for example, whenever she'd say "oh my god", he'd say in a snarky way "mine too!"). She is very private in her beliefs and has told him to keep his to himself as well.
I'm not "pitted" against my brother. we just don't have the same beliefs.
OUR FAMILY IS INTENSELY CLOSE. IT BECAME CLOSER WHEN WE TOLD THE BELIEVERS TO KEEP THEIR BULLSHIT TO THEMSELVES. EVEN MY BROTHER WOULD AGREE THAT OUR FAMILY IS BETTER OFF FOR HIM AND HIS WIFE KEEPING THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.
no, you don't know what you'd think if you saw my nephew. you have no idea what it was like. I have more tolerance than you care to see, and that's your problem. I just don't have tolerance for assholes who smirk and tell me I'm going to hell because I don't do/believe what they do.
I am a great role model for my nephew. I don't need to go to church or believe in god to show him that. My sister's husband believes in god and is a fucking drunk loser who is a horrible role model. if god was a such a good role model, why would my brother be teaching his son that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured through the love the god? it's hate speech is what it is.
why the hell would going to church have any effect on how disciplined an adult a person is?
You don't have to convince me. Actually I was going to say if anyone can help your nephew
with tolerance it would be you. You get heated, angry on this subject and negative.
Family dynamics come into play as well that keeps things from being impartial.
It is always good to avoid religion and politics in family discussions when emotions run so high.
Speaking of hate you sound like you are hating. I thought bringing in unconditional love
for these family members, as you are asking of them, that perhaps you could be the example
of this love and acceptance that will shine through to your nephew. He could see you accept
him whatever his beliefs and the same for his Dad.
It doesn't bother me your brother would think I am hell bound. I got that a lot in life.
I know better. If you surround yourself with love not much hurts.
Be the bigger brother the one with the big heart. Ignore the rest.
It's that heart your nephew will see just not overnight.
again you choose to read what you want and assume even more. I only call it brainwashing when it involves children. once again, no one will answer the question why we "teach" religion to kids when they could easily be taught this when they are older and able to understand the concepts. the only reason it's taught as a young age is because if you told them this at an age of being able to think critically, they'd call you insane.
I am not afraid of god any more than I'm afraid of the loch ness monster.although, I do think it's more believable to acknowledge the existence of the latter.
my nephew doesn't view me as me wanting him to denounce anything. I simply want him to think for himself, which he hasn't done yet. which can't really be expected of him at this age anyway.
it's very telling that I'm not out to "bring him to the dark side" since up until a few months ago, he assumed our whole family believed the same as he and his parents do. yeah, that's how active we are against the church.
I answered why I thought religion is taught at a young age. Maybe you didn't like my answer.
It was positive, family based.
I used the word afraid because you mentioned scary thats all.
I hope your expectations for your nephew are only happiness, in whatever way makes him so.
He may think for himself and it might not be what you believe or want. Hopefully if he thinks
and believes similar to his Dad you won't dispel that and say he is not thinking for himself.
Religion might remain a huge part of his life. That's exciting too.
again you choose to read what you want and assume even more. I only call it brainwashing when it involves children. once again, no one will answer the question why we "teach" religion to kids when they could easily be taught this when they are older and able to understand the concepts. the only reason it's taught as a young age is because if you told them this at an age of being able to think critically, they'd call you insane.
I am not afraid of god any more than I'm afraid of the loch ness monster.although, I do think it's more believable to acknowledge the existence of the latter.
my nephew doesn't view me as me wanting him to denounce anything. I simply want him to think for himself, which he hasn't done yet. which can't really be expected of him at this age anyway.
it's very telling that I'm not out to "bring him to the dark side" since up until a few months ago, he assumed our whole family believed the same as he and his parents do. yeah, that's how active we are against the church.
I answered why I thought religion is taught at a young age. Maybe you didn't like my answer.
It was positive, family based.
I used the word afraid because you mentioned scary thats all.
I hope your expectations for your nephew are only happiness, in whatever way makes him so.
He may think for himself and it might not be what you believe or want. Hopefully if he thinks
and believes similar to his Dad you won't dispel that and say he is not thinking for himself.
Religion might remain a huge part of his life. That's exciting too.
yes, I couldn't care less what he believes as an adult. I don't fault him for anything for his beliefs. I don't fault anyone for their beliefs. I fault parents for indoctrination.
I didn't know you answered the question because it wasn't really an answer.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
know1 - it's fantastic that you have found a church you enjoy attending and that you find it a positive experience. Unfortunately, for the young man from the original post, the church does not bring him anything positive - on the contrary. I understand that his parents,as part of their understanding of parenting, 'shared' their beliefs and how to express those beliefs with him and he accepted that. Now that he is a young adult, all he is asking is that his parents accept his beliefs without being 'demonised' for them. Acceptance/tolerance goes both ways.
He is a young adult but not an adult.
He is part of this family, this family goes to church as a family.
When he leaves as an adult he will choose for himself. He may choose to please his parents
and still attend when he is staying in their family home. Absence does make the heart grow fonder.
To me that is respectful and done out of love.
Then they'll go out for a great Sunday brunch after. And he might even realize he has missed
this family tradition just a little bit, he's missed this family bond. Memories are made of this.
[
yes, I couldn't care less what he believes as an adult. I don't fault him for anything for his beliefs. I don't fault anyone for their beliefs. I fault parents for indoctrination.
I didn't know you answered the question because it wasn't really an answer.
ah ha you didn't like it...
I said
it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
I related watching my daughter at her age and the remarkable difference church has had and said
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
People who don't like religion or church call it indoctrination or forcing religion.
Many many need and love it and enjoy the family bonding time church and shared beliefs bring.
You don't have to convince me. Actually I was going to say if anyone can help your nephew
with tolerance it would be you. You get heated, angry on this subject and negative.
Family dynamics come into play as well that keeps things from being impartial.
It is always good to avoid religion and politics in family discussions when emotions run so high.
Speaking of hate you sound like you are hating. I thought bringing in unconditional love
for these family members, as you are asking of them, that perhaps you could be the example
of this love and acceptance that will shine through to your nephew. He could see you accept
him whatever his beliefs and the same for his Dad.
It doesn't bother me your brother would think I am hell bound. I got that a lot in life.
I know better. If you surround yourself with love not much hurts.
Be the bigger brother the one with the big heart. Ignore the rest.
It's that heart your nephew will see just not overnight.
I get heated with anyone who makes wild assumptions and makes passive aggressive nonsensical comments to other people, all the while judging them. you keep making it personal and it's annoying.
my hour long discussion with my brother and his wife and his son, even though they were judging my very being and saying many condescending things that you have often said in threads of this nature, was very respectful and calm.
I don't hate anyone or anything. that's a waste of energy and time.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You don't have to convince me. Actually I was going to say if anyone can help your nephew
with tolerance it would be you. You get heated, angry on this subject and negative.
Family dynamics come into play as well that keeps things from being impartial.
It is always good to avoid religion and politics in family discussions when emotions run so high.
Speaking of hate you sound like you are hating. I thought bringing in unconditional love
for these family members, as you are asking of them, that perhaps you could be the example
of this love and acceptance that will shine through to your nephew. He could see you accept
him whatever his beliefs and the same for his Dad.
It doesn't bother me your brother would think I am hell bound. I got that a lot in life.
I know better. If you surround yourself with love not much hurts.
Be the bigger brother the one with the big heart. Ignore the rest.
It's that heart your nephew will see just not overnight.
I get heated with anyone who makes wild assumptions and makes passive aggressive nonsensical comments to other people, all the while judging them. you keep making it personal and it's annoying.
my hour long discussion with my brother and his wife and his son, even though they were judging my very being and saying many condescending things that you have often said in threads of this nature, was very respectful and calm.
I don't hate anyone or anything. that's a waste of energy and time.
[
yes, I couldn't care less what he believes as an adult. I don't fault him for anything for his beliefs. I don't fault anyone for their beliefs. I fault parents for indoctrination.
I didn't know you answered the question because it wasn't really an answer.
ah ha you didn't like it...
I said
it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
I related watching my daughter at her age and the remarkable difference church has had and said
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
People who don't like religion or church call it indoctrination or forcing religion.
Many many need and love it and enjoy the family bonding time church and shared beliefs bring.
Thats' my answer...
yeah, I saw that, and it's not that I don't like it. it just doesn't answer the question. your daughter found her faith at a much older age, when she was able to make that choice on her own, away from any other sources of impression. I see nothing wrong with that. that's her choice, and she's free to make it and I respect that.
I never said I don't like religion or don't like church. I think it would be naive to paint it all with one brush. Keep it to what this thread is about: forced religion. it's wrong and it shouldn't be done.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Then they'll go out for a great Sunday brunch after.
Awww.... How quaint. Makes it all ok then for this young man. Makes it ok that his parents think he is fucked. Makes it ok that his parents have no tolerance towards his beliefs, no acceptance. Yep a nice brunch will erase all those memories already made. Let's be real here.
Then they'll go out for a great Sunday brunch after.
Awww.... How quaint. Makes it all ok then for this young man. Makes it ok that his parents think he is fucked. Makes it ok that his parents have no tolerance towards his beliefs, no acceptance. Yep a nice brunch will erase all those memories already made. Let's be real here.
sounds like you could be speaking from your own experience maybe :?
Comments
good and bad. There is no denying it is how humans learn.
Parents an extremely strong influence why being the best role model we can be
is so important. All humans need autonomy and will demand that in their own time ...
it's a natural thing.
We can only hope they do not choose to do things that harm themselves or their future.
This young person feels religion has been forced but they might feel entirely different
in the third decade of life. When they themselves perhaps are parenting.
It all starts to make sense then why our parents made the choices they did.
I have found history really repeats itself too.
well, I SUPPOSE you COULD argue that it's better or more right to raise them to believe for years that something you believe in is historical fact, taking advantage of the fact that they are young and impressionable and will believer everything their parent tells them, only to find out later that it's possible that it's not really true, that what you taught wasn't in fact historically factual, it's just a bunch of stories we brainwashed you with while you were too young to refute it.
You COULD argue that. but why the fuck WOULD you?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
--Spoiler--
Pi, at a young age, exposes himself to many religions and refuses to only take ONE.
Why should kids simply take upon the religion described to them by their parents? How is that one right?
You're taking what I said too literally to only apply to religion. I'm saying that - in general - it's a parents job to raise their children to the best of their ability. If they believe that means essentially forcing them to go to church services until they move out, then so be it. Parents have to force a lot of things on children in order to try and shape their development.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I would say it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
My daughter at 27 has begun going to a progressive Christian church. She is loving it.
The sermons are addressing so much that is helping her personally. Forgiveness, understanding,
she comes and shares them with me often after church as it is close to our family home.
I see the peace it is bringing to her life. The strength that keeps her going amid struggles.
An ease in anxiety and worry.
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
I often wonder with those who were blessed with religion from young on and then left the church
what and where is the disappointment?
Is it taking the stories learned and never allowing them
to be processed into an adult mind and life?
Did they have a counter adult or even both parents who either disliked church
or would not attend with the children in the family setting up a divided home and message?
Finally it must be the biggest factor, they could never believe when all the others around them
were perceived to believe. But some they pray, they attend, they support
and pass it on even though they may not be 100% convinced there is a God.
God doesn't care about that and I don't think those people do either.
yes, they do, but forcing religion on a child serves absolutely no purpose, as education does. you can teach basic human decency and morals without god.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
my brother would disagree with your last statement. he believes anyone who doesn't believe in god and also practice their religion like jesus tells them to, are going to hell.
to answer your question, my family is/was members of the United Church. it was always very positive, except of course I didn't understand why I had to waste my sunday morning dressing up when my friends got to go out and play. there was nothing specific that drove me and my sister and my dad from the church/religion/belief in god. there was nothing nasty going on at the church. everyone was very nice. I had a very positive upbringing with good parents (who are still happily married since 1969).
I just didn't see the point, even when I still believed in god. why bother sitting there and listening to the same damn message every fucking sunday that I can figure out on my own. every christian who is being honest will tell you church is boring as fuck. I mean, really, I had this person telling me lessons about life that were basic human decency stories. or the fairy tales that no one believes about jesus helping a deaf man hear and all that shit. they never said anything profound or mind-blowing that made me want to "stay tuned" by any stretch of the imagination.
even as a kid, I never bought any of that stuff.
and if you saw what I saw in my teenage nephew, you'd be as scared as I was at how fucking brainwashed he seemed. it was scarey.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Matthew 6:5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward in full.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
And if you want further reason to tell your parents to fuck off regarding church:
The Truth Which Sets Free - book online
a pretty comprehensive and compelling case that the word "kyriakon" (church) was inserted in to bible translations replacing the original term "ekklesia" (the elect) ... showing that Jesus never once referred to a physical church, but ALWAYS to AN ELECT GROUP of disciples. Those who FOLLOWED HIS WORD. (not merely those that went to "church" to hear it)
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I totally agree that you can teach morals and decency without God.
I don't agree that "forcing" (such a harsh word) religion on a child can and does serve at least some purpose.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I enjoy going to church. I go to one of those large, progressive, non-denominational Christian churches. The praise band is awesome and they typically throw in a non-religious song almost every week. It's basically like going to a rock concert.
They show videos and have a lot of humorous clips, skits and jokes. I have a pretty good time there and the most basic 2 messages that are ever portrayed are forgiveness and loving all people. As a church, we do a ton of charity work and help lots and lots of people. Every week, we find one family in need and give them $10K to help them in their situation. We even have a ministry that helps women in the exotic dancing and porn industry.
Whether you believe in God or not, surrounding yourself in a positive atmosphere isn't such a bad thing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm glad they have each other in their faith.
Do you think having to go to church taught you to be a more disciplined adult?
If I saw your nephew I would see the young man very differently than you do.
I am not afraid of God, religion or the very faithful. You see this as negative, I can not.
As brainwashing, I will not.
The only negative I saw was one brother pitted against the other.
I'm sure your young adult in your family sees the same. He sees you wanting him to denounce
what you have. This boy's faith is not a competition between brothers.
We don't have to share the same beliefs. You are preaching tolerance, show some.
Unconditional love will win every time. You can be a great example role model to him still.
For him always...forever. He has a lot of learning to do.
Your church sounds awesome!
I think what folks have been saying, just ride it out until you are old enough to do what you want. Just make sure you don't regret it.
Adelaide 1998
Adelaide 2003
Adelaide 2006 night 1
Adelaide 2006 night 2
Adelaide 2009
Melbourne 2009
Christchurch NZ 2009
Eddie Vedder, Adelaide 2011
PJ20 USA 2011 night 1
PJ20 USA 2011 night 2
Adelaide BIG DAY OUT 2014
:shock: :shock:
That said, the tenets of Judaism WERE part of my moral foundation - not all of them but certainly remain in a solid place within my character and how I live my life, treat others...and not necessarily from the religion itself (though I'll admit the rituals - some of which did and didn't make sense to me when I inquired about them - and prayers (their meaning) - and seeing my father live by the rules he asked [note: asked] us to abide by did play a part).
I was fortunate enough, while not personally embracing the religion itself when I got into my teens, to know that the foundation laid for me was a strong and honest one, and I still live by that basic guide...as I believe most people do, whether or not religion had a hand in it.
it's funny that you assume my mother and brother are connected in their faith. that couldn't be further from the truth. my mother herself has told him to stuff it with all his preaching (for example, whenever she'd say "oh my god", he'd say in a snarky way "mine too!"). She is very private in her beliefs and has told him to keep his to himself as well.
I'm not "pitted" against my brother. we just don't have the same beliefs.
OUR FAMILY IS INTENSELY CLOSE. IT BECAME CLOSER WHEN WE TOLD THE BELIEVERS TO KEEP THEIR BULLSHIT TO THEMSELVES. EVEN MY BROTHER WOULD AGREE THAT OUR FAMILY IS BETTER OFF FOR HIM AND HIS WIFE KEEPING THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.
no, you don't know what you'd think if you saw my nephew. you have no idea what it was like. I have more tolerance than you care to see, and that's your problem. I just don't have tolerance for assholes who smirk and tell me I'm going to hell because I don't do/believe what they do.
I am a great role model for my nephew. I don't need to go to church or believe in god to show him that. My sister's husband believes in god and is a fucking drunk loser who is a horrible role model. if god was a such a good role model, why would my brother be teaching his son that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured through the love the god? it's hate speech is what it is.
why the hell would going to church have any effect on how disciplined an adult a person is?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I am not afraid of god any more than I'm afraid of the loch ness monster.although, I do think it's more believable to acknowledge the existence of the latter.
my nephew doesn't view me as me wanting him to denounce anything. I simply want him to think for himself, which he hasn't done yet. which can't really be expected of him at this age anyway.
it's very telling that I'm not out to "bring him to the dark side" since up until a few months ago, he assumed our whole family believed the same as he and his parents do. yeah, that's how active we are against the church.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
of course there's nothing wrong with it. I never said there was. what you described does sound like a lot of fun. any adult is free to worship in any manner in any place they wish. if it helps you in your travels then more power to you. I just have an issue with it being forced on children. it's brainwashing, whether you want to believe that or not. that is the basis of this thread, and all I'm talking about.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
with tolerance it would be you. You get heated, angry on this subject and negative.
Family dynamics come into play as well that keeps things from being impartial.
It is always good to avoid religion and politics in family discussions when emotions run so high.
Speaking of hate you sound like you are hating. I thought bringing in unconditional love
for these family members, as you are asking of them, that perhaps you could be the example
of this love and acceptance that will shine through to your nephew. He could see you accept
him whatever his beliefs and the same for his Dad.
It doesn't bother me your brother would think I am hell bound. I got that a lot in life.
I know better. If you surround yourself with love not much hurts.
Be the bigger brother the one with the big heart. Ignore the rest.
It's that heart your nephew will see just not overnight.
It was positive, family based.
I used the word afraid because you mentioned scary thats all.
I hope your expectations for your nephew are only happiness, in whatever way makes him so.
He may think for himself and it might not be what you believe or want. Hopefully if he thinks
and believes similar to his Dad you won't dispel that and say he is not thinking for himself.
Religion might remain a huge part of his life. That's exciting too.
yes, I couldn't care less what he believes as an adult. I don't fault him for anything for his beliefs. I don't fault anyone for their beliefs. I fault parents for indoctrination.
I didn't know you answered the question because it wasn't really an answer.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
He is part of this family, this family goes to church as a family.
When he leaves as an adult he will choose for himself. He may choose to please his parents
and still attend when he is staying in their family home. Absence does make the heart grow fonder.
To me that is respectful and done out of love.
Then they'll go out for a great Sunday brunch after. And he might even realize he has missed
this family tradition just a little bit, he's missed this family bond. Memories are made of this.
I said
it is a way of life. That would be why you would teach your children from young on.
Religion unites, bonds and teaches age appropriate lessons that the whole family can share.
I related watching my daughter at her age and the remarkable difference church has had and said
This would be true from small on. It would matter not what age your child is,
a parent would see the positive that church can provide.
People who don't like religion or church call it indoctrination or forcing religion.
Many many need and love it and enjoy the family bonding time church and shared beliefs bring.
Thats' my answer...
I get heated with anyone who makes wild assumptions and makes passive aggressive nonsensical comments to other people, all the while judging them. you keep making it personal and it's annoying.
my hour long discussion with my brother and his wife and his son, even though they were judging my very being and saying many condescending things that you have often said in threads of this nature, was very respectful and calm.
I don't hate anyone or anything. that's a waste of energy and time.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
yeah, I saw that, and it's not that I don't like it. it just doesn't answer the question. your daughter found her faith at a much older age, when she was able to make that choice on her own, away from any other sources of impression. I see nothing wrong with that. that's her choice, and she's free to make it and I respect that.
I never said I don't like religion or don't like church. I think it would be naive to paint it all with one brush. Keep it to what this thread is about: forced religion. it's wrong and it shouldn't be done.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Awww.... How quaint. Makes it all ok then for this young man. Makes it ok that his parents think he is fucked. Makes it ok that his parents have no tolerance towards his beliefs, no acceptance. Yep a nice brunch will erase all those memories already made. Let's be real here.
I speak from my own also