Guns.

brianlux

Vitalogensia said:

Coming from a rural area and being around lots of gun owners, as well as military and law enforcement, I agree with your statement that many people are "well educated and trained on their proper use and safety".  I'm however not sure how the rest of your statement relates to mass murderers.  Surely you aren't saying that a rise in "participation trophies" leads to a higher tendency to gun down groups of people, right?  I'd be interested in reading your assessment of the correlation.  

Yeah, it's the many who aren't "well educated and trained on their proper use and safety" that are concerning.  The evidence that those numbers in the U.S. are very large is overwhelming. 

Halifax2TheMax

Hmmmmm, whats changed over the past 30 years or so? It wouldn't have been the NRA changing from a firearm safety and "responsibility" organization to a shill for the gun industry or the aggressive marketing of firearms, particularly assault rifles, to young males or the revoking of laws that make firearms much easier to buy, sell and possess? Nah, none of things contributed. We know too that stats lie and all the blame is on the breakdown of family, particularly those that don't attend church and those terrible public schools. Do young women and girls come from single parent homes? Do they also go to public school? Do they receive participation trophies and are told they can do anything? Do young women and girls own firearms, hunt, competitively shoot? Right.

Go Beavers

seanwon said:

Go Beavers said:

seanwon said:

Totally agree it was drug related. But I was kind of mocked about how likely a home invasion actually is, so I promptly provided 3 examples of it happening within 15 minutes of where I live.  I'm all for banning Assault Rifles. Other than that, you can pass all the laws you want, it isn't going to stop gun crime. Taking guns away from people like me isn't going to stop gun crime.  Guns have been here for a long time. Mass shootings, for the most part, are somewhat recent in our history, the last 20-30 years. We need to understand the root cause of why it's happening, and deal with the root cause. Not ban the instruments.  We don't ban cars because some people drink and drive.  We force them into court ordered rehab, and take away their driving license.

The root cause is easy access to guns. The root cause of vehicle deaths is easy access to cars. Both have minimal requirements to use and our culture is lax regarding being responsible with them

    Totally agree about easy access. The problem is that we have had drunk drivers as long as we have had easy access to cars.  Mass shootings haven't been around (mostly) since guns have been easily accessible.  They have been increasingly happening the past 20-25 years.  The guns haven't changed, so what has?  Seems pretty obvious to me.  Thankfully, it has inadvertently already been posted here for me.

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Its a law in other countries to be armed.  Switzerland is one of them.  They are a very happy country though so thats a bad example...

There is a big difference to be factored in, however.  Most Swiss citizens are well educated, well trained, and intelligent. 

oh well aware.  That is why I added the "happy" part.

Aha!  So guns aren't a problem there because...the people are different.  Exactly.  The past 30 years we have seen a degradation of society and the family unit.  When I grew up those of us who had guns were absolutely well educated and trained on their proper use and safety. And certainly more emotionally intelligent.  Now children are handled with soft white gloves, much like an antique dealer might wear. They need participation trophies, so no one gets their feelings hurt. They are told they are special (they aren't), they can do anything they want in life (they can't). Being raised by daycares and schools because both parents have to work to support a family now.  If they get in trouble at school, it's the teacher's fault.  No accountability, no responsibility. And the number of kids being raised with no strong father figure has been increasing for a long time. 

"We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."  - Barack Obama

Your second paragraph is a theory with no validity, and the number of guns in the US has easily more than doubled in the last 30 years. 

Halifax2TheMax

What’s the source and context of the Obama quote? Relevance? It doesn’t say anything about the odds that you’ll  become a mass shooter. Weird.

Tony1423

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

Go Beavers

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

brianlux

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

That is a fact.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like Tony who will never go out and start shooting people.  But there are people who lose their shit and do things people who know them say they would never do.  The problem is, I don't know who those people are.  Who can truly know? Who does?

These are just facts.

tempo_n_groove

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

You wouldn't know who's carrying.  That's the point of concealment.

Halifax2TheMax

I look forward to the condemnation. Those 28 other countries don’t have divorce, participation trophies and everyone goes to church, I’m sure.

U.S. surgeon general declares firearm violence a public health crisis

Vivek H. Murthy called on the nation to address gun violence with the vigor used to reduce deaths and injuries from tobacco and motor vehicle crashes.

U.S. Surgeon General Vivek H. Murthy declared gun violence a public health crisis Tuesday and called on the nation to address it with the same vigor used to reduce deaths and injuries from tobacco and motor vehicle crashes.

The surgeon general’s advisory marked the first time the nation’s leading voice on public health — the same office that in the 1960s highlighted the lethal consequences of cigarette smoking — had issued an urgent pronouncement on deaths related to firearms. The 39-page advisory underscores the significant physical and mental toll of gun violence on communities nationwide.

Overall, deaths caused by guns rose to a three-decade high in 2021, driven by increases in homicides and suicides, the advisory says. In 2022, more than half of all gun deaths were from suicide, while 40 percent of firearms deaths were homicides.

“I want people to understand the full impact of firearm violence in our country, and I want them to see it as a public health issue,” Murthy said in an interview. “I know it’s been polarizing and I know it’s been politicized, but if we can see it as a public health issue, we can come together and implement a public health solution.”

As of 2020, firearm-related injuries had become the leading cause of death for children and adolescents ages 1 to 19 in the United States. Gun-related deaths for youths exceed those from vehicular accidents, cancer and heart disease.

“This isn’t just a law and order policing problem. We need a more public health approach to reducing and preventing gun violence,” said Alexander McCourt, who researches gun laws at the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Violence Solutions.

Murthy said one of the reasons for the advisory is the rising number of mass shootings in the past decade, which he says has significant implications for mental health and the well-being of the country.

Gun violence deaths are a uniquely American phenomenon. In 2015, data from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization showed that the United States had afirearm-related death rate 11.4 times higher than 28 other high-income nations. The disparity is even greater for the young: U.S. children up to age 14 accounted for 90 percent of all firearm-related injuries in that age group across the 29 countries in the study.

“We’re clearly the outlier and not in a good way,” Murthy said. “There are parents who are worried about dropping their kids off at school because of school shootings.”

The report argues for measures that put more space between firearms and people at risk of hurting themselves or those around them, including laws meant to prevent children from accessing guns, mandatory universal background checks for firearm transactions — including those given as gifts — and a ban on civilian use of assault weapons.

“We did a study a couple of years ago showing that states that had banned large capacity magazines had fewer mass shootings,” said David Hemenway, professor of health policy at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, which conducts firearms research. “And when they had the mass shootings, fewer people were killed.”

Despite the number of gun-related deaths in the United States, legislative efforts often impede implementation of stricter gun restrictions, the surgeon general’s advisory says, perpetuating loose regulations that contribute to the prevalence of mass shootings. Some research shows mass shootings are more likely to happen in states with looser gun laws, according to an analysis by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Even though we see a lot of effort at the state level, it doesn’t always translate because some states have strict laws bordering states with more relaxed laws so the laws may get diluted and aren’t as effective,” McCourt said.

The report also highlights the effect of mass shooting deaths, which account for about 1 percent of all gun-related deaths, but the frequency of mass shooting incidents is increasing. Mass homicide events, which the advisory defines as four or more victims in addition to the perpetrator, affect a higher proportion of women, White people and children compared with other homicides.

The surgeon general’s advisory sayshigh-schoolers exposed to school shootings are 20 percent more likely to steer clear of school because of safety concerns compared with peers not exposed to shootings.

“I remember meeting with a group of high school students telling me that when they go for walks in their neighborhood, they hear gunshots all the time, and it makes them worry about walking in their own neighborhoods,” Murthy said.

Health insurance claims from 2007 to 2021 revealed that youths from birth to 19 who were injured by a gun experienced a 117 percent increase in pain disorders and a 68 percent increase in psychiatric disorders compared with youths not injured by gun violence.

The scourge of gun violence is not shared equally. The report cites a nationwide study conducted in 2019 at Northwestern University, which found that firearm homicides and poverty are intertwined, with rates of gun deaths 27 percent higher among residents living in poverty.

Murthy said he worries that the public does not appreciate the psychological trauma inflicted by pervasive gun violence.

There are “people who witness these events, or family members who suffer the loss of a loved one,” Murthy said. “All of them experience negative mental health outcomes.”

Black people in America face the highest risk of gun-related deaths at a rate of 27 per 100,000 compared with 6.2 for all other racial and ethnic groups combined. White people ages 45 and older have the highest rates of gun suicide at 14.8 per 100,000, while for those under age 45, American Indians or Alaska Natives have the highest rates of gun suicide at 12.3 per 100,000. Veterans also have significantly increased rates of suicide by gun.

The report calls for a public health approach to reducing firearm violence. The advisory advocates for increased funding of gun violence research to inform prevention strategies, which include community violence interventions. These interventions involve “credible messengers and practitioners” who prevent violent conflict by disseminating resources within communities, including health-care and employment services, according to the surgeon general’s advisory.

“We’ve taken on difficult public health challenges that were complicated … and by taking a thoughtful scientific public health approach, we were able to make real progress,” Murthy said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/06/26/surgeon-general-firearm-deaths/

Go Beavers

tempo_n_groove said:

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

You wouldn't know who's carrying.  That's the point of concealment.

Correct, and conceal carry makes it even worse because now I’m exposed to a greater risk without my consent. When I get on the road I’m consenting to the risk of being around a bunch of nitwits trying to manage 4,000 lbs. 

tempo_n_groove

Go Beavers said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

You wouldn't know who's carrying.  That's the point of concealment.

Correct, and conceal carry makes it even worse because now I’m exposed to a greater risk without my consent. When I get on the road I’m consenting to the risk of being around a bunch of nitwits trying to manage 4,000 lbs. 

You shouldn't go out then.  You could get hit by lightning too.

Halifax2TheMax

God forbid we teach sex education. What business do our failing public schools have teaching this? Maybe we should just station trauma nurses along with the armed guards in every school? Or better yet, just arm the kids. Don’t worry, it’s normal.

Born from the tragedy of gun violence, this program teaches children how to stop a wound from bleeding out

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/25/health/gun-violence-stop-the-bleed-children-gupta/index.html

Go Beavers

tempo_n_groove said:

Go Beavers said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

You wouldn't know who's carrying.  That's the point of concealment.

Correct, and conceal carry makes it even worse because now I’m exposed to a greater risk without my consent. When I get on the road I’m consenting to the risk of being around a bunch of nitwits trying to manage 4,000 lbs. 

You shouldn't go out then.  You could get hit by lightning too.

Same deal with lightning, I get to decide if I’m going to take the risk when the conditions are present. It’s not about my level of fear, it’s more about concealed carry people convincing themselves they’re doing me a favor.  

cblock4life

Halifax2TheMax said:

I look forward to the condemnation. Those 28 other countries don’t have divorce, participation trophies and everyone goes to church, I’m sure.

U.S. surgeon general declares firearm violence a public health crisis

Vivek H. Murthy called on the nation to address gun violence with the vigor used to reduce deaths and injuries from tobacco and motor vehicle crashes.

U.S. Surgeon General Vivek H. Murthy declared gun violence a public health crisis Tuesday and called on the nation to address it with the same vigor used to reduce deaths and injuries from tobacco and motor vehicle crashes.

The surgeon general’s advisory marked the first time the nation’s leading voice on public health — the same office that in the 1960s highlighted the lethal consequences of cigarette smoking — had issued an urgent pronouncement on deaths related to firearms. The 39-page advisory underscores the significant physical and mental toll of gun violence on communities nationwide.

Overall, deaths caused by guns rose to a three-decade high in 2021, driven by increases in homicides and suicides, the advisory says. In 2022, more than half of all gun deaths were from suicide, while 40 percent of firearms deaths were homicides.

“I want people to understand the full impact of firearm violence in our country, and I want them to see it as a public health issue,” Murthy said in an interview. “I know it’s been polarizing and I know it’s been politicized, but if we can see it as a public health issue, we can come together and implement a public health solution.”

As of 2020, firearm-related injuries had become the leading cause of death for children and adolescents ages 1 to 19 in the United States. Gun-related deaths for youths exceed those from vehicular accidents, cancer and heart disease.

“This isn’t just a law and order policing problem. We need a more public health approach to reducing and preventing gun violence,” said Alexander McCourt, who researches gun laws at the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Violence Solutions.

Murthy said one of the reasons for the advisory is the rising number of mass shootings in the past decade, which he says has significant implications for mental health and the well-being of the country.

Gun violence deaths are a uniquely American phenomenon. In 2015, data from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization showed that the United States had afirearm-related death rate 11.4 times higher than 28 other high-income nations. The disparity is even greater for the young: U.S. children up to age 14 accounted for 90 percent of all firearm-related injuries in that age group across the 29 countries in the study.

“We’re clearly the outlier and not in a good way,” Murthy said. “There are parents who are worried about dropping their kids off at school because of school shootings.”

The report argues for measures that put more space between firearms and people at risk of hurting themselves or those around them, including laws meant to prevent children from accessing guns, mandatory universal background checks for firearm transactions — including those given as gifts — and a ban on civilian use of assault weapons.

“We did a study a couple of years ago showing that states that had banned large capacity magazines had fewer mass shootings,” said David Hemenway, professor of health policy at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, which conducts firearms research. “And when they had the mass shootings, fewer people were killed.”

Despite the number of gun-related deaths in the United States, legislative efforts often impede implementation of stricter gun restrictions, the surgeon general’s advisory says, perpetuating loose regulations that contribute to the prevalence of mass shootings. Some research shows mass shootings are more likely to happen in states with looser gun laws, according to an analysis by the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Even though we see a lot of effort at the state level, it doesn’t always translate because some states have strict laws bordering states with more relaxed laws so the laws may get diluted and aren’t as effective,” McCourt said.

The report also highlights the effect of mass shooting deaths, which account for about 1 percent of all gun-related deaths, but the frequency of mass shooting incidents is increasing. Mass homicide events, which the advisory defines as four or more victims in addition to the perpetrator, affect a higher proportion of women, White people and children compared with other homicides.

The surgeon general’s advisory sayshigh-schoolers exposed to school shootings are 20 percent more likely to steer clear of school because of safety concerns compared with peers not exposed to shootings.

“I remember meeting with a group of high school students telling me that when they go for walks in their neighborhood, they hear gunshots all the time, and it makes them worry about walking in their own neighborhoods,” Murthy said.

Health insurance claims from 2007 to 2021 revealed that youths from birth to 19 who were injured by a gun experienced a 117 percent increase in pain disorders and a 68 percent increase in psychiatric disorders compared with youths not injured by gun violence.

The scourge of gun violence is not shared equally. The report cites a nationwide study conducted in 2019 at Northwestern University, which found that firearm homicides and poverty are intertwined, with rates of gun deaths 27 percent higher among residents living in poverty.

Murthy said he worries that the public does not appreciate the psychological trauma inflicted by pervasive gun violence.

There are “people who witness these events, or family members who suffer the loss of a loved one,” Murthy said. “All of them experience negative mental health outcomes.”

Black people in America face the highest risk of gun-related deaths at a rate of 27 per 100,000 compared with 6.2 for all other racial and ethnic groups combined. White people ages 45 and older have the highest rates of gun suicide at 14.8 per 100,000, while for those under age 45, American Indians or Alaska Natives have the highest rates of gun suicide at 12.3 per 100,000. Veterans also have significantly increased rates of suicide by gun.

The report calls for a public health approach to reducing firearm violence. The advisory advocates for increased funding of gun violence research to inform prevention strategies, which include community violence interventions. These interventions involve “credible messengers and practitioners” who prevent violent conflict by disseminating resources within communities, including health-care and employment services, according to the surgeon general’s advisory.

“We’ve taken on difficult public health challenges that were complicated … and by taking a thoughtful scientific public health approach, we were able to make real progress,” Murthy said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2024/06/26/surgeon-general-firearm-deaths/

Yes, shooting random people and declaring it a public health issue is just like the war on cigarettes, drugs, etc.  Put the loss of life by gunfire in that same category.  

Halifax2TheMax

Sandy Hook victims would have graduated.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8QldK-xWZ0/?igsh=MWh6NnlzY3FrOGJ4NQ==

seanwon

Vitalogensia said:

Coming from a rural area and being around lots of gun owners, as well as military and law enforcement, I agree with your statement that many people are "well educated and trained on their proper use and safety".  I'm however not sure how the rest of your statement relates to mass murderers.  Surely you aren't saying that a rise in "participation trophies" leads to a higher tendency to gun down groups of people, right?  I'd be interested in reading your assessment of the correlation.  

I just think it's been quite awhile since people were being raised to face adversity, competition, and challenges.  Those things toughen a person and helps them grow and improve.  It's not just "participation trophies", but a conglomeration of the things I mentioned and some I didn't.  It just seems too many aren't capable of handling real life's challenges anymore. And they snap. 

seanwon

Halifax2TheMax said:

What’s the source and context of the Obama quote? Relevance? It doesn’t say anything about the odds that you’ll  become a mass shooter. Weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

Full speech.  The stats he listed are not racial, but the context is that he said single mothers with no strong father figures in the house are prevalent in African-American communities, and it's seriously harming the children and communities.    

Go Beavers

seanwon said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

What’s the source and context of the Obama quote? Relevance? It doesn’t say anything about the odds that you’ll  become a mass shooter. Weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

Full speech.  The stats he listed are not racial, but the context is that he said single mothers with no strong father figures in the house are prevalent in African-American communities, and it's seriously harming the children and communities.    

There’s also research suggesting black fathers outside of the home spend more time with their kids than compared to white fathers not living in the house. 

seanwon

Go Beavers said:

seanwon said:

Go Beavers said:

seanwon said:

Totally agree it was drug related. But I was kind of mocked about how likely a home invasion actually is, so I promptly provided 3 examples of it happening within 15 minutes of where I live.  I'm all for banning Assault Rifles. Other than that, you can pass all the laws you want, it isn't going to stop gun crime. Taking guns away from people like me isn't going to stop gun crime.  Guns have been here for a long time. Mass shootings, for the most part, are somewhat recent in our history, the last 20-30 years. We need to understand the root cause of why it's happening, and deal with the root cause. Not ban the instruments.  We don't ban cars because some people drink and drive.  We force them into court ordered rehab, and take away their driving license.

The root cause is easy access to guns. The root cause of vehicle deaths is easy access to cars. Both have minimal requirements to use and our culture is lax regarding being responsible with them

    Totally agree about easy access. The problem is that we have had drunk drivers as long as we have had easy access to cars.  Mass shootings haven't been around (mostly) since guns have been easily accessible.  They have been increasingly happening the past 20-25 years.  The guns haven't changed, so what has?  Seems pretty obvious to me.  Thankfully, it has inadvertently already been posted here for me.

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Its a law in other countries to be armed.  Switzerland is one of them.  They are a very happy country though so thats a bad example...

There is a big difference to be factored in, however.  Most Swiss citizens are well educated, well trained, and intelligent. 

oh well aware.  That is why I added the "happy" part.

Aha!  So guns aren't a problem there because...the people are different.  Exactly.  The past 30 years we have seen a degradation of society and the family unit.  When I grew up those of us who had guns were absolutely well educated and trained on their proper use and safety. And certainly more emotionally intelligent.  Now children are handled with soft white gloves, much like an antique dealer might wear. They need participation trophies, so no one gets their feelings hurt. They are told they are special (they aren't), they can do anything they want in life (they can't). Being raised by daycares and schools because both parents have to work to support a family now.  If they get in trouble at school, it's the teacher's fault.  No accountability, no responsibility. And the number of kids being raised with no strong father figure has been increasing for a long time. 

"We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."  - Barack Obama

Your second paragraph is a theory with no validity, and the number of guns in the US has easily more than doubled in the last 30 years. 

Absolutely, I'm not here to have a battle of citations.  I'm here for people's opinions based on experiences and observations.

brianlux said:

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

That is a fact.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like Tony who will never go out and start shooting people.  But there are people who lose their shit and do things people who know them say they would never do.  The problem is, I don't know who those people are.  Who can truly know? Who does?

These are just facts.

Can't disagree.  But I guess where we disagree is that I don't think the innocent vast majority should be punished because of the bad seeds. I think we should strive to figure out how to eliminate the bad seeds.

Go Beavers

seanwon said:

Go Beavers said:

seanwon said:

Go Beavers said:

seanwon said:

Totally agree it was drug related. But I was kind of mocked about how likely a home invasion actually is, so I promptly provided 3 examples of it happening within 15 minutes of where I live.  I'm all for banning Assault Rifles. Other than that, you can pass all the laws you want, it isn't going to stop gun crime. Taking guns away from people like me isn't going to stop gun crime.  Guns have been here for a long time. Mass shootings, for the most part, are somewhat recent in our history, the last 20-30 years. We need to understand the root cause of why it's happening, and deal with the root cause. Not ban the instruments.  We don't ban cars because some people drink and drive.  We force them into court ordered rehab, and take away their driving license.

The root cause is easy access to guns. The root cause of vehicle deaths is easy access to cars. Both have minimal requirements to use and our culture is lax regarding being responsible with them

    Totally agree about easy access. The problem is that we have had drunk drivers as long as we have had easy access to cars.  Mass shootings haven't been around (mostly) since guns have been easily accessible.  They have been increasingly happening the past 20-25 years.  The guns haven't changed, so what has?  Seems pretty obvious to me.  Thankfully, it has inadvertently already been posted here for me.

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Its a law in other countries to be armed.  Switzerland is one of them.  They are a very happy country though so thats a bad example...

There is a big difference to be factored in, however.  Most Swiss citizens are well educated, well trained, and intelligent. 

oh well aware.  That is why I added the "happy" part.

Aha!  So guns aren't a problem there because...the people are different.  Exactly.  The past 30 years we have seen a degradation of society and the family unit.  When I grew up those of us who had guns were absolutely well educated and trained on their proper use and safety. And certainly more emotionally intelligent.  Now children are handled with soft white gloves, much like an antique dealer might wear. They need participation trophies, so no one gets their feelings hurt. They are told they are special (they aren't), they can do anything they want in life (they can't). Being raised by daycares and schools because both parents have to work to support a family now.  If they get in trouble at school, it's the teacher's fault.  No accountability, no responsibility. And the number of kids being raised with no strong father figure has been increasing for a long time. 

"We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."  - Barack Obama

Your second paragraph is a theory with no validity, and the number of guns in the US has easily more than doubled in the last 30 years. 

Absolutely, I'm not here to have a battle of citations.  I'm here for people's opinions based on experiences and observations.

brianlux said:

Go Beavers said:

Tony1423 said:

Most people who own a gun, or multiple guns, don’t ‘live in fear’…. We don’t think about shooting up schools, grocery stores, movie theaters etc…. In fact, those thoughts don’t enter into too many people’s minds at all.  Gun owner or not.  

To lawfully own and carry a gun for the protection of yourself and loved ones should not be viewed as a bad thing.  The fact that we live in a world that is becoming more and more unpredictable is what should concern people more.  It may be very unlikely that I will never ‘need’ one of my guns.  I just hope that if that time comes, I am not in a place where they have taken away this fundamental right.  

The fact that anyone around me who is carrying has now put me at a stistcically greater chance of getting shot is a bad things. 

That is a fact.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like Tony who will never go out and start shooting people.  But there are people who lose their shit and do things people who know them say they would never do.  The problem is, I don't know who those people are.  Who can truly know? Who does?

These are just facts.

Can't disagree.  But I guess where we disagree is that I don't think the innocent vast majority should be punished because of the bad seeds. I think we should strive to figure out how to eliminate the bad seeds.

We could do what Western Europe, Canada, and Australia have done to eliminate the bad seeds.