Good Guys with Guns Stop Bad Guys with Guns

Horos

pandora wrote:

gabers wrote:

Someone with proper training can wipe out a large room of people in short order, as we've all seen.

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'. Without the luxury of close human bonding.
Learning to fire an assault weapon in front of the TV, the computer.
Learning victims are just a number. The higher the better. Did he win?
No. In his life he did not win.

Who takes responsibility for a growing mind with illness that is forgotten?
His mother? His father? His clergy? His friends? Friends parents?
Isn't it all of us? People knew and no one wanted to get involved.
Just don't look at the not right boy.
Don't look maybe he will go away. Oh boy did this boy go away.

Your mental illness argument is weak and getting old. Plenty of undiagnosed mentally ill out there but few of them choose to shoot up a schoolroom full of children.

redrock

pandora wrote:

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'.

All this is pure speculation - remember... inaccurate news reports? Sensationalising? Hey.. he was a 'goth' into strange practices too.. let's not forget that.

MotoDC

gabers wrote:

To those that say the solution is more guns, let me first say YOU are the reason why all people in posession of semi-automatic weapons needs a mental capacity test. At the very least. I think responsible people should be allowed to own guns for hunting and home protection. But semi-automatic rifles? The only real difference between what that kid used to kill the other kids and what our soldiers carry is a flip of the swith to 3-round burst or full auto. That is the problem. But with the weapon he used, which was bought legally in this country, he can fire off rounds as fast as he could pull the trigger. I was in the Army. We were taught to fire in sem-auto mode for more accuracy. That's why the M-16's were changed from full auto to 3-round burst, to improve accuracy. Someone with proper training can wipe out a large room of people in short order, as we've all seen. Civilians should NOT have access to assault weapons. It's that simple. Someone please give me a valid reason why they should.

Civilian assualt rifles don't have the fire select switches you refer to. Further, assualt rifles weren't used in this horrific event, unless reports have changed since I last checked (lots of false initial reports in this story). Finally, if burst and single-fire is more accurate (which, of course, it is), what's the harm in having full auto available? Won't the crazies just miss more?

I don't actually think full auto weapons should be available to civilians, fwiw; just wondering about the inconsistency in the "here's how we do it in the army" argument.

pandora

Horos wrote:

pandora wrote:

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'. Without the luxury of close human bonding.
Learning to fire an assault weapon in front of the TV, the computer.
Learning victims are just a number. The higher the better. Did he win?
No. In his life he did not win.

Who takes responsibility for a growing mind with illness that is forgotten?
His mother? His father? His clergy? His friends? Friends parents?
Isn't it all of us? People knew and no one wanted to get involved.
Just don't look at the not right boy.
Don't look maybe he will go away. Oh boy did this boy go away.

Your mental illness argument is weak and getting old. Plenty of undiagnosed mentally ill out there but few of them choose to shoot up a schoolroom full of children.

Wow expected much more from you.

Each one who committed the crime was, each shooter... mentally ill.
This phenomenon some want to close their eyes to. Find the easy solution to remove guns.
This will not remove these killers. Guns because they are illegal will not
keep them from the wrong hands. We have to keep the wrong hands from doing wrong.

Using your logic there are many more guns out there that will never be used to do harm
as well.

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'.

All this is pure speculation - remember... inaccurate news reports? Sensationalising? Hey.. he was a 'goth' into strange practices too.. let's not forget that.

I don't draw conclusions or judgement on 'Goth'... do you :?

His brother who grew up with him, his father also have said he was obsessed with games.

How about you address this as though it were fact ...
and really approach the life he was living.

comebackgirl

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'.

All this is pure speculation - remember... inaccurate news reports? Sensationalising? Hey.. he was a 'goth' into strange practices too.. let's not forget that.

Yes I was also wondering if there were any links to back up these claims because I hadn't heard them.

Mental illness is an issue the world over, yet many countries don't experience this type of violence as regularly as we do in the US. Some countries do a much better job of treating mental health and providing access to care. Many mental health diagnoses are chronic in nature, require ongoing treatment. We're not going to find a cure in the near future. Never mind that many diagnoses, such as Asperger's, have no connection to preplanned violence of this nature. Yes - definitely improve access to care, put more money into researching effective treatment options; but if this is the "easy" way to rid ourselves of violence...well I think that is really showing a lack of understanding for a very complicated issue.

redrock

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

All this is pure speculation - remember... inaccurate news reports? Sensationalising? Hey.. he was a 'goth' into strange practices too.. let's not forget that.

I don't draw conclusions or judgement on 'Goth'... do you :?

His brother who grew up with him, his father also have said he was obsessed with games.

How about you address this as though it were fact ...
and really approach the life he was living.

'Goth' is a very silly word. People and the media use it to categorise. It means nothing. The media sure liked to use it for this killer though (amongst other speculative descriptions)

Why would I want to address speculation as fact? What an asinine suggestion.

redrock

comebackgirl wrote:

Never mind that many diagnoses, such as Asperger's, have no connection to preplanned violence of this nature.

Exactly CBG. But as soon as there is a tragic event like this, the bandwagon of 'mental illness' is jumped on - dumping all mental/cognitive issues in one big pile of shit. Easier to explain. Then one can say it's not a certain other issue.

Zoso

pandora wrote:

Horos wrote:

pandora wrote:

Like someone who, in his 20 years, grew up playing hours upon hours, months upon months,
years upon years of military type assault 'play'. Without the luxury of close human bonding.
Learning to fire an assault weapon in front of the TV, the computer.
Learning victims are just a number. The higher the better. Did he win?
No. In his life he did not win.

Who takes responsibility for a growing mind with illness that is forgotten?
His mother? His father? His clergy? His friends? Friends parents?
Isn't it all of us? People knew and no one wanted to get involved.
Just don't look at the not right boy.
Don't look maybe he will go away. Oh boy did this boy go away.

Your mental illness argument is weak and getting old. Plenty of undiagnosed mentally ill out there but few of them choose to shoot up a schoolroom full of children.

Wow expected much more from you.

Each one who committed the crime was, each shooter... mentally ill.
This phenomenon some want to close their eyes to. Find the easy solution to remove guns.
This will not remove these killers. Guns because they are illegal will not
keep them from the wrong hands. We have to keep the wrong hands from doing wrong.

Using your logic there are many more guns out there that will never be used to do harm
as well.

you think mental health is the biggest issue here? In other countries mentally ill people are just are common... are they shooting up malls, theatres and schools? no

comebackgirl

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

Horos wrote:

Your mental illness argument is weak and getting old. Plenty of undiagnosed mentally ill out there but few of them choose to shoot up a schoolroom full of children.

Wow expected much more from you.

Each one who committed the crime was, each shooter... mentally ill.
This phenomenon some want to close their eyes to. Find the easy solution to remove guns.
This will not remove these killers. Guns because they are illegal will not
keep them from the wrong hands. We have to keep the wrong hands from doing wrong.

Using your logic there are many more guns out there that will never be used to do harm
as well.

you think mental health is the biggest issue here? In other countries mentally ill people are just are common... are they shooting up malls, theatres and schools? no

after the Aurora shooting I had posted numerous articles that found the greatest link to this type of violence was being young and male; that had a far greater link than being mentally ill. While I always think mental health care is important and should receive much more focus than it does, I am sickened by the stigma of mental illness that is reinforced in these threads. Mental illness may be one factor in some of these shootings, but a personality disorder, such as this shooter is reported to have had, is much more about how people are socialized, particularly young males. This issue is far bigger than access to mental health care.

Abe Froman

dimitrispearljam wrote:

Zoso wrote:

[

millions of people have mental health issues in the world and not all want to kill children... if you take away his access to guns he doesn't do it.. pure and simple.

humans are inherently violent by nature... we can't stop this but we can stop their access to weapons like this...

so easy to understand this...i really dont fit in my mind,why people dont understand that simple thing..

This.
Guns end lives...period.

DewieCox

I think the answer, as with most issues, lies somewhere in the middle of what alot of people seem to be arguing.

Stricter gun laws.... I own guns and have friends that are big gun buffs. I don't think anyone should own some of the guns they have, but I have a hard time saying they shouldn't when they're responsible with them and our government has a stockpile of them. It's easy to roll your eyes at that, I have numerous times, but it's a big reason why the 2nd amendment was put into the constitution. I don't think taking guns away from law-abiding citizens is the answer. Gun ownership has saved alot of lives as well. We just need to do a better job making sure we know who the responsible gun owners are. Make the owners, dealers, and doctors more liable when things do go wrong and for fucks sake make sure gun shows have a heavy police presence to stop the funny business that goes on there.

Better care for mental health issues. Clearly, the root of the problem. There is a stigma and alot of misunderstanding that goes on here. Alot of times, I think simple compassion would go a long way. Some, maybe most parents just don't know how to handle kids with mental issues and need the help.

Better parenting. Quit letting kids play shoot-em-up games and watching all the violent shit on tv, including the news. It desensitizes young people to death and all the horrible shit that goes with it. Spend some time with them, quit letting them dress like sluts and dumbasses and teach them some freakin respect.

JonnyPistachio

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/ ... 3820070828
(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.

"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.

India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.

Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.

On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.

France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.

"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.

"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.

Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.

****
So, basically we don't have anything better to waste our money on...and there's no real need to register weapons. :?

btw, I openly admit, I am biased...Ive had too many run-ins with guns used irresponsibly. I considered buying a gun a few times because I lived in a bad area. I was very close to buying one, and becoming the GOOD GUY with a gun to fight the bad guy with guns....But I decided that if I was to purchase a gun, the chances it could be used against me, or get stolen, and the fact that if people want to use a gun against me, they have the element of surprise...I abandoned my house, took a huge a risk (foreclosure/short sale) and moved. I still don't own a gun, thank God.

JonnyPistachio

I thought this was of interest as well:

http://ivn.us/2012/07/25/gun-control-an ... omparison/

The United States has the loosest gun control laws of all developed countries. In the US, there are virtually as many guns as there are people. According to FBI crime statistics, 8,775 of the 12,996 murders that occurred in the U.S. in 2010 were caused by firearms.

With a gun being the weapon of choice in so many of the homicides in the United States, consider other countries, with stricter gun control laws, and how murders involving firearms there are much lower.

Japan - In Japan, most kinds of guns are illegal, and almost no one owns a gun. Japan is known as one of the strictest gun controlling nation in the world, with only 0.6 firearms per every 100 people. In 2006, there were only two homicides caused by guns in Japan. In 2008 there were 11. The country has nearly eliminated murder by firearms.

United Kingdom – The rate of private gun ownership in the United Kingdom is 6.72 firearms per 100 people. In 2009, only 18 people were murdered with a firearm. Within the last 14 years, the year with the highest number of gun caused homicides was 2004, with 52 people killed.

Australia – Ranked at No. 25 in comparison of number of privately owned guns in 178 other countries, about 15 out of every 100 Australians owns a firearm. Annual homicide rates involving firearms in the country is relatively low, at 0.1% per every 10,000 in 2009.

Germany – Ranked No. 4, in a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 other countries, approx. 30 out of every 100 people in Germany own a firearm. Germany experiences far fewer gun related homicides annually than the United States. In 2010, there was a total of 158 homicides committed with a firearm.

United States – The United States is ranked at No. 1 for civilian gun ownership in comparison with all other industrialized countries. There are approximately 88.8 firearms for every 100 people in the U.S. In the past 14 years, the year with the greatest number of homicides caused by a firearm occurred in 2006, when 10,225 people were killed by the use of a gun. Annual firearm suicides within the United States are high as well. In 2005, 17,002 suicides were committed using a firearm.

The United States far surpasses other countries in terms of gun related violence and death. The numbers above tend to indicate that fewer gun-related homicides is a direct result of stricter gun control laws.

A particular quote by Benjamin Franklin says, “Anyone who will trade freedom for security deserves neither.”

Although the freedoms enjoyed in this country must be protected and upheld, statistics show that personal security within the United States is greatly hampered by lenient gun control laws.

*****
I've always liked that Ben Franklin quote, but I wonder what he would say today.
I've heard quite a few people say the US is a world leader and the greates country, etc... well we sure take the cake on this one too.

redrock

comebackgirl wrote:

.... I am sickened by the stigma of mental illness that is reinforced in these threads. Mental illness may be one factor in some of these shootings, but a personality disorder, such as this shooter is reported to have had, is much more about how people are socialized, particularly young males. This issue is far bigger than access to mental health care.

It's an insult to all who do have mental health issues.

blackredyellow

JonnyPistachio wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828
(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.

"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.

India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.

Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.

On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.

France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.

"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.

"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.

Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.

****
So, basically we don't have anything better to waste our money on...and there's no real need to register weapons. :?

btw, I openly admit, I am biased...Ive had too many run-ins with guns used irresponsibly. I considered buying a gun a few times because I lived in a bad area. I was very close to buying one, and becoming the GOOD GUY with a gun to fight the bad guy with guns....But I decided that if I was to purchase a gun, the chances it could be used against me, or get stolen, and the fact that if people want to use a gun against me, they have the element of surprise...I abandoned my house, took a huge a risk (foreclosure/short sale) and moved. I still don't own a gun, thank God.

I love the (lack of) logic in arming MORE people as a response to these shootings.
If having more guns made us safer, the US would be the safest country in the world.

Cosmo

Do we really want America to be a place where we HAVE to have guns everywhere? Do we want our kindergartens to be patrolled by armed guards and have our 5 year olds pass through metal detectors?
Is this the America we want?

g under p

blackredyellow wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828
(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.

"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.

India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.

Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.

On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.

France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.

"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.

"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.

Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.

****
So, basically we don't have anything better to waste our money on...and there's no real need to register weapons. :?

btw, I openly admit, I am biased...Ive had too many run-ins with guns used irresponsibly. I considered buying a gun a few times because I lived in a bad area. I was very close to buying one, and becoming the GOOD GUY with a gun to fight the bad guy with guns....But I decided that if I was to purchase a gun, the chances it could be used against me, or get stolen, and the fact that if people want to use a gun against me, they have the element of surprise...I abandoned my house, took a huge a risk (foreclosure/short sale) and moved. I still don't own a gun, thank God.

I love the (lack of) logic in arming MORE people as a response to these shootings.
If having more guns made us safer, the US would be the safest country in the world.

One of the best things I've heard said on the train since this tragedy. This is a video of ONE of these precious children..... Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/suEzAc0QQ6U

If that's the logic then have everyone in this country have as many weapons as possible and see where that move leads us.


Peace

pandora

redrock wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

.... I am sickened by the stigma of mental illness that is reinforced in these threads. Mental illness may be one factor in some of these shootings, but a personality disorder, such as this shooter is reported to have had, is much more about how people are socialized, particularly young males. This issue is far bigger than access to mental health care.

It's an insult to all who do have mental health issues.

Actually it is stigma that is actually being addressed. :fp:

but of course your agenda is gun control, mine is individual rights, states rights and reform for
the mentally ill not necessarily in that order.

Zoso

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

.... I am sickened by the stigma of mental illness that is reinforced in these threads. Mental illness may be one factor in some of these shootings, but a personality disorder, such as this shooter is reported to have had, is much more about how people are socialized, particularly young males. This issue is far bigger than access to mental health care.

It's an insult to all who do have mental health issues.

Actually it is stigma that is actually being addressed. :fp:

but of course your agenda is gun control, mine is individual rights, states rights and reform for
the mentally ill not necessarily in that order.[/quote
I get it.. The individual right above all else including safety of children..

Again, how is mental health an issue if mental health exists everywhere but only mentally ill in America are shooting up school? I'm repeating myself.. if it was linked to mass murders the mentally ill would be doing the same in London and Berlin a the same rate as here.