Truth...

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  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    redrock wrote:
    To me, experiencing life as we live it, for the moment, is magnificent. Experiencing with the view of a 'something after', being only a belief, one would miss out on 'real life'/moment.

    From a number of Pandora's posts, it would seem one needs to experience the contemplation of suicide, traumatic events, a light bulb 'shattering' on it's own (thus 'knowing' there is afterlife), etc. to be able to have god show them the way. More to show that a belief in god is not a truth for all but a relative truth for some.

    'Everyone will know god one day'? Again, not a statement of truth but a personal belief (and a bit presumptuous too!)
    ...
    Exactly.
    That is why I accept death and part of my life. I do not tempt death, nor do I try to bring it upon me. I know it is out there and death will eventually find me.
    So... I LIVE. I cherish the day and everything it brings to me.
    The other day, i walked to the Subway for lunch to take back to my desk. On the way back to work (it is about a 2.5 mile round trip) I walked along the street, a city street with minimal traffic. As I walked, a yellow butterfly fluttered along side me... keeping pace. We kept the same pace for about a mile or so until she turned to cross my path and head over to the golf course.
    I liked that. I knew it didn't mean anything or answer any of my questions on life and that is was mere coincidence that we both happened to be headed in the same direction at the same time for a brief period. I also know that the butterfly was probably oblivious to my being there and was just looking for something to eat. Nothing Earth shattering... just two lives... under the Sun... out for lunch.
    Those are little things in life I tend to take note of.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    The truth is unknowable. It exists, I suppose, but it must be perceived by our faulty senses and interpreted by our faulty brains.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited December 2012
    The truth is unknowable. .

    Which truth are you talking about? Metaphysical? The 'ultimate' truth? If so, I would agree. As we are not ominscient, we cannot have this ultimate truth as an universal absolute. Nothing stops us from seeking though - we gain a lot of 'personal truths' through our quests! Even if we know what one seeks is almost impossible, the journey can be rewarding.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    Cosmo wrote:
    Another side topic on logic, truth and God:
    I have had a few people come to me with this logical advice as you why it is better to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
    + is good
    - is bad
    0 is null
    ---
    + You believe is God and God exists. Go to Heaven.
    - You do not believe in God and God exists. Go to Hell.
    + You believe in God and God does not exist. But, your belief in God has pulled you through tough time in life.
    0 You do not believe in God and God does not exist. You were right, so what?
    ---
    Totals:
    Believe in God = + +
    Not believe in God = - 0
    Therefore, believing in God is good.
    ...
    To which I ask, 'So... belief in God... to cover my ass, 'just in case' He exists... is good? How does God feel about that? (if He exists)".

    What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    redrock wrote:
    The truth is unknowable. .

    Which truth are you talking about? Metaphysical? The 'ultimate' truth? If so, I would agree. As we are not ominscient, we cannot have this ultimate truth as an universal absolute.

    Physical truths, I guess. Abstract things, like math, that exist only in the mind may have truths. I think this was touched upon earlier in the thread, though.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.
    ...
    That's also what I think. It's not even in the realm of being a test.
    I believe it was concocted in a failed attempt to explain, in a logical maner, that it is better for me to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
    If someone really does prescribe to this line of reasoning, it merely means that his belief is based upon covering his ass... just in case God does exist. To me... you should believe in God for reasons other than just hedging your bets.
    ...
    Note: This must be being spread amongst the people somehow because I have heard this debate point several times from several different people in my lifetime. I don't know... is this something that is taught in Sunday school?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    Cosmo wrote:
    What about all the other 3,000 or so gods mankind has recognized over the years? Do we have to worry what they think, too? There's just not enough hours in the day to keep all of them happy. Might as well not even try. So, long story short, the test is a crock.
    ...
    That's also what I think. It's not even in the realm of being a test.
    I believe it was concocted in a failed attempt to explain, in a logical maner, that it is better for me to believe in God, than to not believe in God.
    If someone really does prescribe to this line of reasoning, it merely means that his belief is based upon covering his ass... just in case God does exist. To me... you should believe in God for reasons other than just hedging your bets.
    ...
    Note: This must be being spread amongst the people somehow because I have heard this debate point several times from several different people in my lifetime. I don't know... is this something that is taught in Sunday school?

    There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.
    ...
    I understand that... but, personally, there are things that I wonder about... other than my mundane existance in the modern world. Keeps me thinking. Where thinking, in my opinion, is good thing.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    Cosmo wrote:
    There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. Its not like any of us are breaking any new ground here, philosophically speaking. Smarter people than us have been thinking about these things since the dawn of time.
    ...
    I understand that... but, personally, there are things that I wonder about... other than my mundane existance in the modern world. Keeps me thinking. Where thinking, in my opinion, is good thing.

    True dat!
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • markin ballmarkin ball Posts: 1,075
    Jeanwah wrote:
    So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...

    Yes...

    But, we use our senses and our brain to interpret the world. So, it's all "hearesay" in a way. There is no way to directly detect the universe without your brain, ears, eyes, nose or fingers polluting the evidence, or "truth".
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Jeanwah wrote:
    So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...
    ...
    It really is more of a philisophical discussion on the nature of truth, logic, reasoning, critical thought.
    The God thing is just one example that most people can relate in regards to a simple question that has a great deal of variables that come into play to derive at a simple Yes or No answer.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Cosmo wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Just try the exercise ...
    find pleasure in feeling God with you then work on the rest in time.
    Give a little and see what you get.
    ...
    HOW? How can I try the exercise.. if you will not explain it?
    You say, 'Imagine God'. I don't want God to be based upon my own imagination... which differs from your imagination. Unless you and I and everyone in the world share the same imagination, we will all see different Gods.
    That very process is how religions are formed... Man, imaginning God the way they would like to see Him. The founders of Judaism and the Christianity and Islam... and you. In every instance, God is based upon the imaginary version created by Mankind... and you. you see God as you wish to see Him. I want to see God as He is... not how I imagine he would be.
    ...
    And just a clue: Imagination exists in the mind and requires the application of thought processes.
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility
    remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.

    Are you serious about knowing God? Or is your goal to ridicule
    and deny others for knowing God? If that is your goal that would be kind of lame,
    a huge waste of time too.
    Your words deny God only to yourself not to others.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...
    The 'truth' on the existence (or not) of an omnipresent, omniscient, creator god has always been one of big metaphysical debates and one that could be interesting.

    Barstool preaching, on the other hand, is really not part of such debate.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited December 2012
    pandora wrote:
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility
    remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.
    ...
    Doesn't sitting alone on an empty stretch of beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific on a grey Winter's day count as meditation? Why would I need to imagine that? It is a real place that I can exist in. What about sitting on the banks of a still alpine lake in the Sierras, listening to the trees sing? Lying on my back, looking up at the billions upon billions of stars blanketing the black of the desert night sky? Doesn't the fact that I actually live in those places over rule my imagining being there? I contemplate my existance and place great value in Mankind's ability to understand his mortal life.
    By your own description of your exercise... you are feeling... not knowing. You are using your imagination to create an imaginary space in time... in which, you find your God. In your own personal imagination of God. Which may seem true to you.
    If that is what works for you... great, it works for you. Yours is another religion that crosses my path... a preacher of one giving a sermon to a congregation of one. But, it is hardly what i'm looking to find.
    Post edited by Cosmo on
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
    Sometimes it seems like we've gotten off the train and gone on the wagon.

    No, not what you think. I mean wagon, you know...

    aaaaa.jpg

    :lol::lol::lol:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,717
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat wrote:
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    Good on ya, sir. I wish you continued strength, no matter the source(s).

    (I'd venture to bet a good deal of it comes from you, but I'm in no position to declare it as...truth)

    This thread isn't only food for thought, it's a bloody smorgasbord! And while much to take in, I like it.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    mickeyrat wrote:
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    ...
    It is your inner strength that helps to guide you. Yeah, we all have moments where we are faced with decisions... and those decisions are ultimately made by us. You get that because it is part of your humanity. A God or Nature may grant life... we, as beings that possess awareness, have to figure out what to do with it.
    And I have stated many times, what I believe... that hope, faith and belief in are good, positive traits that we possess. You don't really have to know God in order to believe in Him. You either make that leap of faith... or wait and see what the jury decides.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • redrock wrote:
    I guess it's just a question of what you consider absolute truth and relative truth, dancepartner. A truth from 'within' - that would be 'your' truth - not mine (or maybe it could be mine as well). As said at the beginning (and you mention), no one is omniscient. There are many theories of truth - these have been debated for centuries by very learned philosophers. Though it is generally (not to say absolutely) agreed that an absolute truth is one that is valid for all, all the time, with no counter argument - this, obviously within our limited parameters. A framework. We live, we die. Not all absolute truths are 'hard' truths either - truth can be quite abstract.

    Can you give an example of one of your 'absolute' truths from within?

    Ok. I tried to clip a pciture (used the img button) but it didn't work...how do I post a pic from my computer pics?
    Anyway, ironically, my inner truths when shared, seem to come at the expense of scant support from others. :roll:
    Here's a good example; (the one I tried to insert a pic of) I'm building outside of town and want to use the wood & rocks etc from surrounding area. For wood, that means Russian Olive. It's considered a trash wood & very invasive. Most western states are trying to get rid of it. However, it comes in very crooked branches and it's grain is beautiful & hard. My epiphany (Eureka moment, bright idea, inner knowing) came to me generated by these thoughts of wanting to create with material at hand. So, I made a one-of-a-kind fence with this stuff for a flower garden area. Nobody but nobody thought it was a good idea but once finished, nobody but nobody considers it any less than a work of art! ;)

    I guess if you want to know how I think absolute truths' arrive, I believe we are a creative species and we've been given an ever-expanding universal masterpiece to spark us. Our passion, knowlege and abilities all come together and poof! Humans create everyday and I think this keeps our souls happy. When we don't feed our creative side, that's when we get into slumps.
    I guess the other aspect of this would be the part where scant support plays into it. We create from our mind's eye (some call it God's eye) and we feel it's right. You come to know that only you see & feel it just so and that's ok. With age for experience, you remember more & more to tick off common sense weighing factors which help keep your creative endeavors from being derailed no matter who supports you. Who thought men could fly? Who agreed with anyones creative ideas at first?
    I think we must create to satiate our emotions like joy & fullfillment. That is inner truth. Is it absolute? I'm not sure.
    With a bit of luck, once a creation is shared, other feel-good emotions like gratitude & acceptance get soothed as well and all hopefully before you die! (I'm thinking of all the creative masterpieces not appreciated while the creator was still a mortal being).
    The DP series was a creative endeavor that came from an inner knowing —learn to write, then write, then share— and it came to me outta nowhere like a thunderbolt. I just hope I don't die before it gets appreciated cuz I passionately believe it's that somehow, somewhere start to spark us to unify our power and halt this spiral to the bottom. for this era living right now, I passionately believe if we wait for another era to fix things, then too late, is just too damn late...
    Sorry to end on such a sour note.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    With a bit of luck, once a creation is shared, other feel-good emotions like gratitude & acceptance get soothed as well and all hopefully before you die! (I'm thinking of all the creative masterpieces not appreciated while the creator was still a mortal being).
    The DP series was a creative endeavor that came from an inner knowing —learn to write, then write, then share— and it came to me outta nowhere like a thunderbolt. I just hope I don't die before it gets appreciated cuz I passionately believe it's that somehow, somewhere start to spark us to unify our power and halt this spiral to the bottom. for this era living right now, I passionately believe if we wait for another era to fix things, then too late, is just too damn late...
    Sorry to end on such a sour note.
    But isn't the ability itself - to conceive of and carry out that creation enough? And, too, choosing to share it with others? Is outside validation necessary if it's a (personal) inner truth?
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    edited December 2012
    Cosmo wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility
    remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.
    ...
    Doesn't sitting alone on an empty stretch of beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific on a grey Winter's day count as meditation? Why would I need to imagine that? It is a real place that I can exist in. What about sitting on the banks of a still alpine lake in the Sierras, listening to the trees sing? Lying on my back, looking up at the billions upon billions of stars blanketing the black of the desert night sky? Doesn't the fact that I actually live in those places over rule my imagining being there? I contemplate my existance and place great value in Mankind's ability to understand his mortal life.
    By your own description of your exercise... you are feeling... not knowing. You are using your imagination to create an imaginary space in time... in which, you find your God. In your own personal imagination of God. Which may seem true to you.
    If that is what works for you... great, it works for you. Yours is another religion that crosses my path... a preacher of one giving a sermon to a congregation of one. But, it is hardly what i'm looking to find.
    Again just trying to help you. The exercises I do not do... it is all for you.
    For you because your reality, your logic does not allow you possibilities.
    And no I have my proof, it is nothing of imagination. I do not imagine God.
    I am fine in my knowledge, you claim to seek.
    You disregard others knowledge and say bullshit/impossible. This because your mind
    does not allow the possibility.You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation, it is nothing of chilling in reality.

    What would someone need to say to convince you?

    What would you have to experience in this life to know God?

    I wonder if both answers would be nothing. No one, not even God could help you.
    You don't want help knowing God, you don't seek, you have made your decision.
    You don't want to know God ...it's not possible for you or anyone else.

    So in the future when you say no one can know God I will remind you ....
    you do not want to know God, you think you are unable.
    Post edited by pandora on
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    A couple days ago, my son in turmoil said to me ... "I just want to know truth"

    hmmm...

    I said 'we all do hun ...
    one day ...
    in the meantime live it'. :D
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    enjoyed a block of Supertramp this weekend ...
    these lyrics reminded me of this thread


    "Goodbye strange it's been nice, hope you find your paradise
    Tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true

    I believe, yes, I've got to get away"
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?

    Ummm.... maybe you did? :?
    pandora wrote:
    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?
    .....
    Can you imagine ....
    Can you imagine.....?

    ......

    You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation,
    ..... .

    But good to see that, after what you have stated, you now understand it is not! ;):mrgreen:

    :oops: :oops: Didn't I say 'that's all I have to say'? :oops: :oops: Took the bait again... I will never learn, will I? ;)
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?

    Ummm.... maybe you did? :?
    pandora wrote:
    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?
    .....
    Can you imagine ....
    Can you imagine.....?

    ......

    You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation,
    ..... .

    But good to see that, after what you have stated, you now understand it is not! ;):mrgreen:

    :oops: :oops: Didn't I say 'that's all I have to say'? :oops: :oops: Took the bait again... I will never learn, will I? ;)
    "do you meditate?" was a separate question ... I was interested if the OP was familiar.
    "The do not understand meditation" was directed at the OP likening it to chilling
    on a beach. I have found it quite different.

    The exercise to follow was to work on the skill that frees the logical mind.
    Not an example of meditation.
    Imagine is an exercise and chilling on the beach is not meditation though wonderfully
    rejevenating and peaceful, in my opinion.

    Do you pick apart sentences?
    I guess if someone does that they certainly can come up with anything they like to think,
    not the posters point or intention. It's a skill to focus on how words are meant,
    comes from an understanding place
    you could listen and try this .... novel idea.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Of course, Pandora, whatever you say.... :?

    2911505_ae9755d892.gif
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    Of course, Pandora.... :?

    2911505_ae9755d892.gif
    Tootles girlfriend ;)
    work on those listening skills now ...
    it saves peeps from a lot of unnecessary 'splainin' to do
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