Truth...

redrock

Cosmo wrote:

While it is true, that some beliefs can be truths, no truths are beliefs... truths are truths..

I will tend to agree with that.

Cosmo wrote:

Example: Rev. Fred Phelps states (very loudly and very obnoxiously) that he knows God. With his knowledge of God, he claims to know that 'God Hates Fags'.
Truth or Belief?
The truth is... we don't know if God hates fags or not. But, I am taking Rev. Phelps at face value, not because I don't like the guy, rather I know he does not know God as he professes. Truth is not on his side, so I can call bullshit on his claims. Rev. Phelps posseses belief... not truth.

I hate to continue with this god thing but it does relate to absolute/relative truths. We have two examples of people who see as absolute (and not relative) truth that they know God. God is God - one 'entity'. But one who 'knows' this entity 'knows' that god hates fags. Should knowing god be an absolute truth, then the other person who claims the absolute truth ref knowing god should have the same truth regarding God's likes or dislikes since 'knowing god' is absolute.

I'm guessing the person here who claims 'knowing' god (not the reverend) would deny god hates fags. Then this would go to show that 'knowing' god would be a relative truth for this person and not absolute.

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

I hate to continue with this god thing but it does relate to absolute/relative truths. We have two examples of people who see as absolute (and not relative) truth that they know God. God is God - one 'entity'. But one who 'knows' this entity 'knows' that god hates fags. Should knowing god be an absolute truth, then the other person who claims the absolute truth ref knowing god should have the same truth regarding God's likes or dislikes since 'knowing god' is absolute.

I'm guessing the person here who claims 'knowing' god (not the reverend) would deny god hates fags. Then this would go to show that 'knowing' god would be a relative truth for this person and not absolute.

...
I talk to several people regarding this, including an Air Force Chaplain.
My answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?' is... 'I don't know'.
My reasoning is in my belief that God is such a tremenously complicated concept that it is beyond the scope of human comprehension, either on an intellectual level or an emotional level. That is why no one can explain God. That is why no one in the entire history of humanity has been able to explain Him. I suppose, the closest one was Moses... but, even then, there are so many variables in the Moses story that it makes it hard to sort out truth from artistic license.
So... in order to really know God... would make you a very special individual. I mean, like up there with Moses and Jesus. I have yet to meet such a person and odds tell me that it is probably unlikely. Which I am okay with because I enjoy the journey.

pandora

redrock wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

While it is true, that some beliefs can be truths, no truths are beliefs... truths are truths..

I will tend to agree with that.

Cosmo wrote:

Example: Rev. Fred Phelps states (very loudly and very obnoxiously) that he knows God. With his knowledge of God, he claims to know that 'God Hates Fags'.
Truth or Belief?
The truth is... we don't know if God hates fags or not. But, I am taking Rev. Phelps at face value, not because I don't like the guy, rather I know he does not know God as he professes. Truth is not on his side, so I can call bullshit on his claims. Rev. Phelps posseses belief... not truth.

I hate to continue with this god thing but it does relate to absolute/relative truths. We have two examples of people who see as absolute (and not relative) truth that they know God. God is God - one 'entity'. But one who 'knows' this entity 'knows' that god hates fags. Should knowing god be an absolute truth, then the other person who claims the absolute truth ref knowing god should have the same truth regarding God's likes or dislikes since 'knowing god' is absolute.

I'm guessing the person here who claims 'knowing' god (not the reverend) would deny god hates fags. Then this would go to show that 'knowing' god would be a relative truth for this person and not absolute.

I know God that's all I know... gee you guys are funny ... I see...
how many atheists does it take to...


I can't deny God hates gays ... how could I do that? :? How could any of us?

My gut tells me the Reverend preaches the Bible that might be interpreted by him
to not be in favor of gay relationships.

I don't think you should be using the term fag that is disrespectful.

riotgrl

Cosmo wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I don't really have anything to add, it's quite the thread though.

When one tries to preach a relative truth as an absolute - as Pandora is attempting - it ceases to be truth at all, in my opinion. What is it about relative truths that people can't just keep them to themselves? If one is convinced that they KNOW GOD, then either prove it, or admit that it is a personal truth that may be truth for them, but not everyone.

I mean, I believe in God for my own reasons, yet I would never attempt to make my truth anyone elses. It's way too personal to push on anyone else. Yet why can't people be happy with their truths and keep it to themselves? Is it something psychological?

...
That is one of the fundament properties of truth... it exists.
If you look at it one way... only absolute truth (i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 or death being a fact of all life). All relative truths should be relgated to belief. While it is true, that some beliefs can be truths, no truths are beliefs... truths are truths.
Example: Rev. Fred Phelps states (very loudly and very obnoxiously) that he knows God. With his knowledge of God, he claims to know that 'God Hates Fags'.
Truth or Belief?
The truth is... we don't know if God hates fags or not. But, I am taking Rev. Phelps at face value, not because I don't like the guy, rather I know he does not know God as he professes. Truth is not on his side, so I can call bullshit on his claims. Rev. Phelps posseses belief... not truth.

But is death a fact? I say this because maybe we should define death. If I believed in Buddhism or Hinduism and thus in reincarntion it could be argued that I am not truly dead only waiting a bit before reentering this physical realm. Unlike Christianity or Islam where I move into a different realm - heaven for instance.

BinauralJam

pandora wrote:

I don't think you should be using the term fag that is disrespectful.

Ya, but it's in context

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

redrock wrote:

I hate to continue with this god thing but it does relate to absolute/relative truths. We have two examples of people who see as absolute (and not relative) truth that they know God. God is God - one 'entity'. But one who 'knows' this entity 'knows' that god hates fags. Should knowing god be an absolute truth, then the other person who claims the absolute truth ref knowing god should have the same truth regarding God's likes or dislikes since 'knowing god' is absolute.

I'm guessing the person here who claims 'knowing' god (not the reverend) would deny god hates fags. Then this would go to show that 'knowing' god would be a relative truth for this person and not absolute.

...
I talk to several people regarding this, including an Air Force Chaplain.
My answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?' is... 'I don't know'.
My reasoning is in my belief that God is such a tremenously complicated concept that it is beyond the scope of human comprehension, either on an intellectual level or an emotional level. That is why no one can explain God. That is why no one in the entire history of humanity has been able to explain Him. I suppose, the closest one was Moses... but, even then, there are so many variables in the Moses story that it makes it hard to sort out truth from artistic license.
So... in order to really know God... would make you a very special individual. I mean, like up there with Moses and Jesus. I have yet to meet such a person and odds tell me that it is probably unlikely. Which I am okay with because I enjoy the journey.

You will never understand knowing God until you let go of religion = God
something it appears you are incapable of.

pandora

BinauralJam wrote:

pandora wrote:

I don't think you should be using the term fag that is disrespectful.

Ya, but it's in context

still insulting to others I won't do it

Cosmo

riotgrl wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
That is one of the fundament properties of truth... it exists.
If you look at it one way... only absolute truth (i.e. 1 + 1 = 2 or death being a fact of all life). All relative truths should be relgated to belief. While it is true, that some beliefs can be truths, no truths are beliefs... truths are truths.
Example: Rev. Fred Phelps states (very loudly and very obnoxiously) that he knows God. With his knowledge of God, he claims to know that 'God Hates Fags'.
Truth or Belief?
The truth is... we don't know if God hates fags or not. But, I am taking Rev. Phelps at face value, not because I don't like the guy, rather I know he does not know God as he professes. Truth is not on his side, so I can call bullshit on his claims. Rev. Phelps posseses belief... not truth.

But is death a fact? I say this because maybe we should define death. If I believed in Buddhism or Hinduism and thus in reincarntion it could be argued that I am not truly dead only waiting a bit before reentering this physical realm. Unlike Christianity or Islam where I move into a different realm - heaven for instance.

...
Physical death that occurs on this planet in relation to all living things is a fact.
As for afterlife, reincarnation, etc... we do not know the true answers.
My belief is Man created these belief systems to add more meaning to his existance and seperate himself from all other life on this planet. To make his life more meaningful than just a body that possesses life... like a cat.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
I talk to several people regarding this, including an Air Force Chaplain.
My answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?' is... 'I don't know'.
My reasoning is in my belief that God is such a tremenously complicated concept that it is beyond the scope of human comprehension, either on an intellectual level or an emotional level. That is why no one can explain God. That is why no one in the entire history of humanity has been able to explain Him. I suppose, the closest one was Moses... but, even then, there are so many variables in the Moses story that it makes it hard to sort out truth from artistic license.
So... in order to really know God... would make you a very special individual. I mean, like up there with Moses and Jesus. I have yet to meet such a person and odds tell me that it is probably unlikely. Which I am okay with because I enjoy the journey.

You will never understand knowing God until you let go of religion = God
something it appears you are incapable of.

...
Proof that you only believe to know God and do not actually (truthfully) know God...
God would tell you to not be so passive/agressively snarky.
...
Note: That is my 'belief'.

redrock

Riotgrl wrote:

But is death a fact? I say this because maybe we should define death. If I believed in Buddhism or Hinduism and thus in reincarntion it could be argued that I am not truly dead only waiting a bit before reentering this physical realm. Unlike Christianity or Islam where I move into a different realm - heaven for instance.

Cosmo wrote:

...
Physical death that occurs on this planet in relation to all living things is a fact.
As for afterlife, reincarnation, etc... we do not know the true answers.
My belief is Man created these belief systems to add more meaning to his existance and seperate himself from all other life on this planet. To make his life more meaningful than just a body that possesses life... like a cat.

Death, ie cessation of all functions, end of bodily life is probably what I would call an absolute, universal truth. We all cease to live eventually, a physical function no two ways about it.

The response to death, ie reincarnation, heaven or hell or plain old 'dust to dust, ashes to ashes' bit is all relative. Looking at philosophies/religions which believe in reincarnation and or an afterlife in another realm, it is the 'soul' which travels - not the body. Another set of beliefs. Thus we can still say that physical death is absolute.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
I talk to several people regarding this, including an Air Force Chaplain.
My answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?' is... 'I don't know'.
My reasoning is in my belief that God is such a tremenously complicated concept that it is beyond the scope of human comprehension, either on an intellectual level or an emotional level. That is why no one can explain God. That is why no one in the entire history of humanity has been able to explain Him. I suppose, the closest one was Moses... but, even then, there are so many variables in the Moses story that it makes it hard to sort out truth from artistic license.
So... in order to really know God... would make you a very special individual. I mean, like up there with Moses and Jesus. I have yet to meet such a person and odds tell me that it is probably unlikely. Which I am okay with because I enjoy the journey.

You will never understand knowing God until you let go of religion = God
something it appears you are incapable of.

...
Proof that you only believe to know God and do not actually (truthfully) know God...
God would tell you to not be so passive/agressively snarky.
...
Note: That is my 'belief'.

Knowing God is not unique. You seem to think so though.
I try to understand why you think this way and continually it takes me back to
you will not. Just really shut down you are about this.
Are you searching? Would you like to know God too?
Why would you not change techniques to accomplish what you seek?

If you don't seek it then why are you not a proclaimed atheist or have you grown to be?

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Knowing God is not unique. You seem to think so though.
I try to understand why you think this way and continually it takes me back to
you will not. Just really shut down you are about this.
Are you searching? Would you like to know God too?
Why would you not change techniques to accomplish what you seek?

If you don't seek it then why are you not a proclaimed atheist or have you grown to be?

...
God knows me.
You know God.
You tell me.

riotgrl

redrock wrote:

Riotgrl wrote:

But is death a fact? I say this because maybe we should define death. If I believed in Buddhism or Hinduism and thus in reincarntion it could be argued that I am not truly dead only waiting a bit before reentering this physical realm. Unlike Christianity or Islam where I move into a different realm - heaven for instance.

Cosmo wrote:

...
Physical death that occurs on this planet in relation to all living things is a fact.
As for afterlife, reincarnation, etc... we do not know the true answers.
My belief is Man created these belief systems to add more meaning to his existance and seperate himself from all other life on this planet. To make his life more meaningful than just a body that possesses life... like a cat.

Death, ie cessation of all functions, end of bodily life is probably what I would call an absolute, universal truth. We all cease to live eventually, a physical function no two ways about it.

The response to death, ie reincarnation, heaven or hell or plain old 'dust to dust, ashes to ashes' bit is all relative. Looking at philosophies/religions which believe in reincarnation and or an afterlife in another realm, it is the 'soul' which travels - not the body. Another set of beliefs. Thus we can still say that physical death is absolute.

I agree with you both that physical death is most likely an absolute but was teaching about reincarnation today and it made me think of this thread. However, I might counter and say is our essence, soul, spirit, whatever an expression of our real selves? So while our physical body might cease to exist on this plane, WE still exist in some realm which still occupies physical space. I think it is possible to say that our essence, spirit, soul, could still occupy physical space even if it is not our physical body.

Another thought, brianlux gave us a great list of books to check out for further reading and I was curious if anyone would be interested in reading one of those books and discussing here on AMT? Could generate a very interesting discussion.

redrock

I see what you mean Riotgrl, but is 'soul' not a belief (ie a relative truth) in itself? One cannot deny the physical but one's 'essence' is debatable.

redrock

riotgrl wrote:

Another thought, brianlux gave us a great list of books to check out for further reading and I was curious if anyone would be interested in reading one of those books and discussing here on AMT? Could generate a very interesting discussion.

A little 'aparté' thus a separate post. A little book club! I find that a fantastic idea. Unfortunately, my spare time is really erratic and sometimes so far and few in between that I would not be able to be a timely contributor.
I certainly would enjoy popping into the thread as and when!

Cosmo

redrock wrote:

I see what you mean Riotgrl, but is 'soul' not a belief (ie a relative truth) in itself? One cannot deny the physical but one's 'essence' is debatable.

...
That's what it is. We can not deny the fact that, because we live, we will die. Whereas the idea of a soul, spirit is just that... an idea.
I admit to 'believing' in the spirit of the life force. I also am first to admit that i know it is my belief... it is not known... it is not verifiable... therefore, it is not truth. It is belief. And i know the difference between the two.
...
Also, are humans the only ones who belive in the spirit? Does my cat possess a sprit, too? Is there a cat heaven? If there is a cat heaven... is my other cat there... and if so, does he still have that infected-then-popped ear that looks like a shriveled up popcorn or does he have the ear had had as a kitten?

riotgrl

redrock wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

Another thought, brianlux gave us a great list of books to check out for further reading and I was curious if anyone would be interested in reading one of those books and discussing here on AMT? Could generate a very interesting discussion.

A little 'aparté' thus a separate post. A little book club! I find that a fantastic idea. Unfortunately, my spare time is really erratic and sometimes so far and few in between that I would not be able to be a timely contributor.
I certainly would enjoy popping into the thread as and when!

I watch Breaking Bad and followed the Season 5 thread on AET and only checked in after I had watched the episode they had discussed that way there were no spoilers. We could do the same here. Just keep it an ongoing thread and we can pop in as we get to a section.

riotgrl

redrock wrote:

I see what you mean Riotgrl, but is 'soul' not a belief (ie a relative truth) in itself? One cannot deny the physical but one's 'essence' is debatable.

But then we could debate what makes up our essence For example, is our essence, spirit, whatever located IN our brain which ceases to exist upon our physical death? Or it is something greater than our physicality and it goes beyond our physical self? I believe that you and Cosmo share the same belief that I do that death is one of the few absolute truths but this has been floating through my brain today. And said brain now hurts

bootlegger10

Cosmo wrote:

bootlegger10 wrote:

I think without a source of truth (God for example), truth is defined by the golden rule.

For example, if there are two people on earth, and there is no God determining right from wrong, would it be wrong for person 1 to kill person 2 for person 2's land? Whose to say it is wrong? If there was a creator of those two individuals, that creator could say that it is wrong and it would be absolute truth.

Without a creator, then humans are left to figure truth out on their own. A lot of that is through the golden rule. THey don't want to be killed, so they aren't going to kill someone else. They would want to be helped out if they are homeless, so they provide help for the homeless. This kind of truth changes though as public opinion changes, so I don't know if there is real truth in the world without it coming from a Creator. Otherwise, the will of the people will determine truth as it works for them at the time instead of it being a constant truth.

Slavery was once a truth in the USA. Thankful it is not anymore, but at one point in time public opinion supported slavery.

...
What about all of that coming from our humanity? Did God end slavery or did men bearing humanity end slavery?

Well, someone responded to me earlier that I was talking more about morals than truths. I haven't read the whole thread so maybe I am off topic. I would think truths are similar to morals.

Well, for the sake of argument how do we know that slavery being bad is a "truth"? (Disclaimer: I think slavery is wrong). Was it right in the 1700's because people thought it was, or is it wrong in 2012 because people think it is? What I'm saying is that the will of the people determines a truth at any time, and that will changes over time. So to declare something a truth I think would be difficult without a common source that determines it.

If I am off topic please ignore.

pandora

I know there is a life force in us all that continues on,
unexplainable phenomenon has shown me this. It is not dying it is
leaving this world. The majority of people find this to be true,
feel this.
I hope my Dogs too continue on cause they are more awesome
thank most people